|
Dudley posted:It is. He's one of those United fans and I want to put his head in a vice.
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 20:18 |
|
|
Rumor going around based on some Redcafe posts that some United supporters may bring a Justice banner to Anfield next Sunday, which would be quite a thing, imo. I feel like yesterday blew away some of the vitriol that fueled Hillsborough chants, and I'm not sure how even the most hardcore cunts could try starting one up now. Although I'm sure I'll be proven wrong I think, or hope, it will now be contained to only the absolute tiniest minority going forward, easily shouted down.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:02
|
|
|
kcer posted:The word pushing conjures up entirely misleading imagery to me as well. The idea of a crush can be easy to dismiss unless you've been in a similiar situation. Not to defend the idiots though, all that's needed is to watch some footage or read some first-hand accounts to get an idea of how awful it would be. One of the things that has stood out for me is of how recent this was. I think over the years (since reading about it) my mind has pushed it back further into the past, but it was only 1989! FFS how can something so bad, be handled so poorly, and everyone involved treated so horribly, have only happened in 1989!
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:03
|
|
|
I've spent all afternoon arguing with mentalists who are still convinced that Liverpool fans are to blame for this. Its loving exhausting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:13
|
|
|
angry armadillo posted:You don't have a bit of good reading on crowd control do you? I was actually gonna post that Crush Point article from the New Yorker, but I've been beaten to it. It's long but interesting, and it gives references to a few books and papers on the subject. Goes into some detail on crowds as psychological and physical force-multipliers. If you've got an Athens account from a college or anything, you can pull up research papers on crowd disasters, too. I did manage to pull up a relevant free one here: http://web.sg.ethz.ch/ethz_risk_center_wps/pdf/ETH-RC-12-010.pdf As for Stuart Campbell, yeah it's the same guy from AP. I liked him a lot better when he aimed his vitriol at cosy little arrangements between game industry figures and reviewers, or at clueless establishment types. He's way out of his depth here and making an idiot of himself
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:14
|
|
|
Blue Screen Error posted:I've spent all afternoon arguing with mentalists who are still convinced that Liverpool fans are to blame for this. Why bother? Tell them to read the report or gently caress off
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:15
|
|
|
Scott Bakula posted:Why bother? Tell them to read the report or gently caress off Well I know the best I'm going to get out of the actual mentalists is them shutting the gently caress up, which seems to have now happened, but the idea of people 'on the fence' (what a loving innappropriate term right now) being persuaded by them annoyed me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:18
|
|
|
T. Mascis posted:Rumor going around based on some Redcafe posts that some United supporters may bring a Justice banner to Anfield next Sunday, which would be quite a thing, imo. I feel like yesterday blew away some of the vitriol that fueled Hillsborough chants, and I'm not sure how even the most hardcore cunts could try starting one up now. Although I'm sure I'll be proven wrong I think, or hope, it will now be contained to only the absolute tiniest minority going forward, easily shouted down. You'd hope so. This is something that transcends club rivalries and based on the reports could easily have happened 8 years earlier Spurs/Wolves ties. Fatalities were avoided basically out of sheer luck.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:22
|
|
|
Blue Screen Error posted:I've spent all afternoon arguing with mentalists who are still convinced that Liverpool fans are to blame for this. In real life or on the internet?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:22
|
|
|
Section 2.3 of this is especially relevant btw. The fact is that the fans waiting for the knackered old turnstiles were ALREADY in a press, which feels loving horrible, trust me - and couldn't see the crush developing ahead. The cops provided the perfect situation to kill people
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:27
|
|
|
TyChan posted:In real life or on the internet? Mostly on a Norwich forum but also one friend of mine who just likes to be a contrarian dickhead.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:27
|
|
|
Blue Screen Error posted:I've spent all afternoon arguing with mentalists who are still convinced that Liverpool fans are to blame for this. So did I! With Stu Campbell. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:56
|
|
|
Steve Bell on Kelvin MacKenzie's 'apology':
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 17:59
|
|
|
Ninpo posted:He's one of those United fans and I want to put his head in a vice. I've read way more of what this guy has written over the past couple of days than I ever want to again, and I have to say that I find the most odious part of it to be the fact that he always goes on about "Well this is just what I do in crowds", as if he's such a smug bastard and no one at Hillsborough thought of trying to move back instead of mindlessly moving forwards until they were literally the people dying. It's as if he's saying "Well if only I had been there with my revolutionary idea of moving backwards instead of forwards, those people would still be alive." gently caress him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 18:03
|
|
|
Irvine Patrick is going to have his knighthood stripped
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 18:12
|
|
|
serious gaylord posted:Irvine Patrick is going to have his knighthood stripped Is this fact or your opinion?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 18:18
|
|
|
serious gaylord posted:Irvine Patrick is going to have his knighthood stripped Link? Source? I know calls for this started as soon as the presentation of the evidence ended yesterday but if it's happening this quickly I'll be ecstatic
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 18:18
|
|
|
After all the faffing that arose from Fred Goodwin having his knighthood taken away, they changed the process to make it a lot quicker. Theres nothing official, but there have been calls to parliament to make it happen, so when it does, because they will have to, it'll be gone within two weeks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 18:27
|
|
|
Issues around safety certificates for football grounds are their own horrific rabbit hole. The legislation about safety certificates is the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975, which came about as a delayed reaction to the second Ibrox disaster in 1971. It was slightly preceded by the first edition of a best-practices publication known to everyone as the Green Guide. Any major ground should have been placed on a Government list and inspected for its compliance with Green Guide standards by the local authority, who would then issue a safety certificate, with responsibility placed on the local authority to inspect and issue the certificate (although overall responsibility for safety at a ground stayed with the owners). (Source) Now, how many clubs did this and took it seriously, it's hard to know. Pretty much the only thing I do know is that Highbury was taken off the FA's list of approved semi-final grounds in 1984; the semi it hosted that year had a major pitch invasion, and the board flatly refused to put fences up (they also took a lot of flak off fans in the 80s because they kept cutting the capacity when new safety standards were issued). irlZaphod posted:Duckenfield was given an early retirement for health reasons and was never charged with anything. Would like to note that the families managed to bring a private prosecution against Duckenfield and his assistant, Supt Bernard Murray, for manslaughter. Murray was found not guilty; the jury could not reach a verdict on Duckenfield and the judge refused the prosecution's application for a re-trial.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 20:30
|
|
|
Ninpo posted:He's asking for literature on crowd control/dynamics so as to be better equipped to refute the moronic suggestions of "well don't push in a crowd hurrrr" that these loving idiots think is such a simple solution to the problem and thus why Liverpool fans deserved it. Well that's a better way to phrase and also, thanks TyChan. The other common moronic reply is 'why do Liverpool fans want to send someone to jail for killing 96 people it's impossible to blame amyone' even when you mention the treatment/cover up you fall on deaf ears. It's amazing that after all this how ignorant people can be
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 20:34
|
|
|
For the first time ever I find myself not getting so mad at idiots like Stuart Campbell, due to the HIP report. It's like a massive weight has been lifted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 21:08
|
|
|
Good site I found with info on Spurs/Wolves at Hillsborough in 81 http://www.ohwhenthespurs.co.uk/#/hillsborough-1981/4535126148 Look at that loving video
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 21:34
|
|
|
c0burn posted:Good site I found with info on Spurs/Wolves at Hillsborough in 81 http://www.ohwhenthespurs.co.uk/#/hillsborough-1981/4535126148 Look at the stand! Also, quote:The pressure was so intense that I had to lift my chest upwards, above the barrier so that I could breathe. I never touched the ground again until the end of the game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 21:51
|
|
|
c0burn posted:For the first time ever I find myself not getting so mad at idiots like Stuart Campbell, due to the HIP report. It's like a massive weight has been lifted. It's an oddly cathartic feeling, where you're not happy, because it shows that there was a horrifying cover up the whole time, but now everyone else can see it too, clear as loving day, 400 pages worth. So anyone who clings to the old lies can get hosed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 21:53
|
|
|
T. Mascis posted:It's an oddly cathartic feeling, where you're not happy, because it shows that there was a horrifying cover up the whole time, but now everyone else can see it too, clear as loving day, 400 pages worth. So anyone who clings to the old lies can get hosed. I find them all the more infuriating, since it's now just pure hateful delusion.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 22:18
|
|
|
irlZaphod posted:Apparently Bernstein is/was supposed to be making a broadcast statement at noon. I haven't seen anything about it, though. quote:We are deeply sorry this tragedy occurred at a venue the FA selected. This fixture was played in the FA's own competition, and on behalf of the Football Association I offer a full and unreserved apology and express sincere condolences to all of the families of those who lost their lives and to everyone connected to the City of Liverpool and Liverpool Football Club.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 22:36
|
|
|
Blue Screen Error posted:I've spent all afternoon arguing with mentalists who are still convinced that Liverpool fans are to blame for this. Can we send them and the Freeh Report Paternoists to some remote island together?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 22:43
|
|
|
Ninpo posted:He's one of those United fans and I want to put his head in a vice. isn't he an Aberdeen fan? Loonytoad Quack posted:Cross-posting from the UK politics thread: that's genuine. MacKenzie would likely have written or co-written it, but he'd definitely have seen and personally approved it having set the writer (if not himself) the general angle to take. The Sun's attitude toward homosexuality in particular during his reign was frequently as awful as that - they once ran 'OFFICIAL: YOU CAN'T GET AIDS FROM STRAIGHT SEX' on page 2 of the paper and would attack 'gays' as 'unnatural' or more frequently the insidious 'you wouldn't want your son to associate with them' absolutely the best available resource to learn about Kelvin Mackenzie's spell at The Sun is Stick it up your punter by Chris Horrie and Peter Chippindale. Mackenzie himself has confirmed the truth of literally everything about him in the book, which confirms him as knowingly evil
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 22:57
|
|
|
Reading this thread makes me absolutely infuriated about what happened. It's staggeringly eye-opening in how it shows the decadence of police, government, and press, secondly only to the Leveson Inquiry. Coupled with such a senseless loss of human life, it's astonishing at how bare the classism is in all parts of British society. All sparked by a game of football.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 23:20
|
|
|
Ninpo posted:I find them all the more infuriating, since it's now just pure hateful delusion. There's always gonna be those few morons. Some people seem to have a real problem with the idea of losing their agency in a crowd. Stuart Campbell fits the profile, he's always seen himself as a big old iconoclast (and he seems to have left his compassion behind in the 90s). Unfortunately, thoughtlessly raging against a fact isn't going to make it go away, or do anything really except make you look like a bit of an insecure tosser. They're disappointing but irrelevant - everyone else can finally get some closure now that the truth is in the open. I feel like I should read that book on MacKenzie but I've never even been able to get through a full Newsnight/radio show with him on without turning it off in disgust. He's a real-life troll with absolutely no morals whatsoever
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 23:34
|
|
|
Babby Thatcher posted:isn't he an Aberdeen fan? His attacks on Elton John were utterly loving reprehensible.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 23:56
|
|
|
T. Mascis posted:Rumor going around based on some Redcafe posts that some United supporters may bring a Justice banner to Anfield next Sunday, which would be quite a thing, imo. I feel like yesterday blew away some of the vitriol that fueled Hillsborough chants, and I'm not sure how even the most hardcore cunts could try starting one up now. Although I'm sure I'll be proven wrong I think, or hope, it will now be contained to only the absolute tiniest minority going forward, easily shouted down.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2012 01:24
|
|
|
You weren't lying. The United Support banner is a very nice thought by human beings capable of understanding the context of the situation. If it alienates the dregs of the "die hard," United fans, then all the better.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2012 03:39
|
|
|
It's incredible that it has taken 23 years for the truth to see light of day, but I have to say, some of the commentary in the last few days has gone a little overboard in white-washing the responsibility of the football fan culture of the day, in having ANY contribution at all to this tragedy. There was a horrible white-wash perpetrated by the police 23 years ago, so let's not go overboard in going in the opposite direction now. If you read any United fanzine, there are invariably lots of wistful tales about the "good old days" of football culture (pre-SKY etc etc) where everyone was drunk going to games and nothing beat a cheeky tale of how you "blagged" yourself into a stadium without a ticket. This week however, I'm reading about how off-sales reported no "excessive" sales of alcohol around the stadium and that equates to "no" drunken fans at Hillsbrough. Apparenty, we are also now supposed to believe there were "zero" ticketless fans that contributed to the crush. Gimme a break. Look, the "blame" for this tragedy can be spread across many people and institutions and over a long period of time leading up to 1989, and blaming football fans probably comes near bottom of that list in terms of being "contributors" to the tragedy, but lets not kid ourselves that every single fan in the Leppings Lane End has got a "clear conscience" from that horrible day. This is not about blaming Liverpool fans, it could have easily happened to anybody, United, Spurs, Wolves etc etc. I've read many tales of how United fans had close-calls at Hillsborough pre-89 and this really seemed like a tragedy waiting to happen, compounded by the government's attitude of treating football supporters like "scum", resulting in the victims being "framed". But let's have a healthy and honest perspective as well. The football fan culture of the 70s/80s (and this applies to all the football tribes), I think, played "some" role in the long road leading to this tragedy. One question football fans should ask themselves, if there was no glorification of the "hooligan culture", maybe it would not have led to the governmental/institutional response(right or wrong) to start "caging football fans like animals" in the Stetford End, the Kop and at Hillborough?
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2012 06:51
|
|
|
Pookerbacca posted:It's incredible that it has taken 23 years for the truth to see light of day, but I have to say, some of the commentary in the last few days has gone a little overboard in white-washing the responsibility of the football fan culture of the day, in having ANY contribution at all to this tragedy. There was a horrible white-wash perpetrated by the police 23 years ago, so let's not go overboard in going in the opposite direction now. you're a "oval office" and also "wrong"
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2012 06:55
|
|
|
Pookerbacca posted:It's incredible that it has taken 23 years for the truth to see light of day, but I have to say, some of the commentary in the last few days has gone a little overboard in white-washing the responsibility of the football fan culture of the day, in having ANY contribution at all to this tragedy. There was a horrible white-wash perpetrated by the police 23 years ago, so let's not go overboard in going in the opposite direction now. Is this a copy paste from somewhere
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2012 06:55
|
|
|
tekz posted:Is this a copy paste from somewhere Heh, nope, just my own thoughts. It's just my natural reaction to what I see amongst the herd mentality amongst the journalists I've been reading. When there is a 100% piling going in one direction, tht just means, we are bluffing ourselves about something. I know this is an emotional issue for many people, waiting for vindication for 23 years, bothing is ever completely 100% black or white.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2012 07:12
|
|
|
Pookerbacca posted:Heh, nope, just my own thoughts. It's just my natural reaction to what I see amongst the herd mentality amongst the journalists I've been reading. When there is a 100% piling going in one direction, tht just means, we are bluffing ourselves about something. I know this is an emotional issue for many people, waiting for vindication for 23 years, bothing is ever completely 100% black or white.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2012 07:20
|
|
|
Pookerbacca posted:Heh, nope, just my own thoughts. It's just my natural reaction to what I see amongst the herd mentality amongst the journalists I've been reading. When there is a 100% piling going in one direction, tht just means, we are bluffing ourselves about something. I know this is an emotional issue for many people, waiting for vindication for 23 years, bothing is ever completely 100% black or white. Some things are completely black and white, for example zebras haha. All joking aside though you're an idiot
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2012 07:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 20:18 |
|
|
Pookerbacca posted:Heh, nope, just my own thoughts. It's just my natural reaction to what I see amongst the herd mentality amongst the journalists I've been reading. When there is a 100% piling going in one direction, tht just means, we are bluffing ourselves about something. I know this is an emotional issue for many people, waiting for vindication for 23 years, bothing is ever completely 100% black or white. This is useless contrarianism. quote:This week however, I'm reading about how off-sales reported no "excessive" sales of alcohol around the stadium and that equates to "no" drunken fans at Hillsbrough. Apparenty, we are also now supposed to believe there were "zero" ticketless fans that contributed to the crush. Gimme a break. First of all, the Taylor Report considers and rejects both of these ideas. And literally nobody is saying that there were no drunk fans at Hillsborough, only that there were few enough of them that they could not be shown to have contributed to the crush. Same with ticketless fans; Lord Taylor found a few smatterings of ticketless fans, but concluded that it was an insignificant number. Ask yourself: if everyone (instead of just the vast majority) had been completely sober, and if every single person had a ticket, do you honestly think there would've been fewer fatalities on that day? Knowing everything we now know? If so, I'm going to put you in the same bucket as Stu Campbell. quote:The football fan culture of the 70s/80s (and this applies to all the football tribes), I think, played "some" role in the long road leading to this tragedy. On the other hand, this is barely even a controversial point. Obviously, without hooliganism, you don't have fences around the pitch or in between sections, and without the fences you don't have Hillsborough (though you probably have some other disaster relating to decrepit stadiums). The Taylor Report concluded that the cage-them-in strategy of anti-hooliganism had failed, and spent a lot of time exploring anti-hooliganism strategies that didn't involve punishing everybody to prevent the abusive actions of a small minority of fans. The all-seater proposal was made with this in mind. But there's a difference between saying that hooligan culture contributed to Hillsborough and saying that actual Liverpool fans were negligently responsible for crushing other Liverpool fans to death. That's a story that has been refuted by every single goddamn inquiry into the matter, with more and more certainty every time. savetheclocktower fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Sep 14, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2012 07:28
|
|
