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ComradeCosmobot
Dec 4, 2004

USPOL July

Russell William Thorpe posted:

I do know that BIENVENIDOS A CUBA is now the top thing on Venezuelan Twitter

The kind of people who have internet in Venezuela aren't exactly the people who voted for Chavez though.

Honestly, I think it's a shame that Chavez won, but in part this is because I'm not really convinced that Chavez's vision is necessarily the right vision for a socialist country (it reeks of strong-man populism rather than offering a genuine alternative to a exploitative capitalist system).

Of course, Capriles wouldn't have brought this on either, so...

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Russell William Thorpe
Nov 18, 2004

ComradeCosmobot posted:

The kind of people who have internet in Venezuela aren't exactly the people who voted for Chavez though.

Honestly, I think it's a shame that Chavez won, but in part this is because I'm not really convinced that Chavez's vision is necessarily the right vision for a socialist country (it reeks of strong-man populism rather than offering a genuine alternative to a exploitative capitalist system).

Of course, Capriles wouldn't have brought this on either, so...

Has a right-wing leader in Central/South America ever lead to good things?

Simone Poodoin
Jun 26, 2003

Che storia figata, ragazzo!



The media has been really effective though, many people are posting condolences to their Venezuelan friends and ranting about the evil communist dictator. These are random people on a news story comments so they probably are the kind of people who read only headlines and get outraged.

An actual Venezuelan friend is taking this with cautious uncertainty. I don't really know enough about the situation to have a worthwhile opinion but if Capriles is really a capitalist puppet then maybe Chavez is a good choice.

El Hefe I'm interested in your thoughts about this.

cgeq
Jun 5, 2004

ekuNNN posted:

I hear he helped the poor a lot but "he's bad for the economy".

Really? I hear "he's bad for democracy" and that's actually a valid concern.

ComradeCosmobot
Dec 4, 2004

USPOL July

Must Love Dogs posted:

A Chavez win is a good thing, if only for the number of apoplectic strokes the American foreign policy establishment will have over it.

It's more firepower for Romney in the upcoming foreign policy debate than anything else, to be honest. Obama hasn't really been as aggressively anti-Venezuela as Bush was.

Must Love Dogs
May 6, 2005

and the sky is filled with light can you see it?

Russell William Thorpe posted:

Has a right-wing leader in Central/South America ever lead to good things?

Short answer: no.

Longer answer: How do you feel about torturing and massacring political dissidents?

Russell William Thorpe
Nov 18, 2004

Must Love Dogs posted:

Short answer: no.

Longer answer: How do you feel about torturing and massacring political dissidents?

As a fetish or morally? Because in the latter case I'm against it.

Frijolero
Jan 24, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo

ekuNNN posted:

I'm happy that Chavez won, but I feel I mostly hear propaganda about non-western countries, so am I right in being happy? My position is mostly based on taking the opposite of what I feel the news here wants us to think and being a socialist. I hear he helped the poor a lot but "he's bad for the economy".

That's what I've heard from both camps of Venezuelan people. (The few that I have talked to abroad)

The leftist think he's great ONLY because he's helped the poor so much. The people on the right HATE having to pay so much for electronics. That's the way I would sum it up.

ekuNNN
Nov 27, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

cgeq posted:

Really? I hear "he's bad for democracy" and that's actually a valid concern.

Well, the "bad for democracy" things we get here (in the Netherlands) about him are mostly just cult of personality stuff like his personal tv-show. But I'm betting that he still spends comparatively less on promoting himself than Obama (or any US president) does, for example.

Must Love Dogs
May 6, 2005

and the sky is filled with light can you see it?

ComradeCosmobot posted:

It's more firepower for Romney in the upcoming foreign policy debate than anything else, to be honest. Obama hasn't really been as aggressively anti-Venezuela as Bush was.

The US backed an attempted coup against Chavez under Bush. You are setting the bar very high on this one.

On the other hand, it's not counting the coup d'état that America helped shepherd in Ecuador, who was a Chavez ally.

ComradeCosmobot
Dec 4, 2004

USPOL July

cgeq posted:

Really? I hear "he's bad for democracy" and that's actually a valid concern.

Not to mention the cult of personality he seems to have built up around himself.

I think there are very legitimate complaints about Chavez, but his concrete achievements in poverty reduction do count for something significant, as does his observations on American imperialism (even if it's equally used for rhetorical purposes rather than legitimate criticism.)

ComradeCosmobot
Dec 4, 2004

USPOL July

Must Love Dogs posted:

The US backed an attempted coup against Chavez under Bush. You are setting the bar very high on this one.

On the other hand, it's not counting the coup d'état that America helped shepherd in Ecuador, who was a Chavez ally.

I was more commenting that Romney will have ample room to use Venezuela as a talking point to bash Obama on now that a "foreign policy loss" (as far as Republicans are concerned) has entered the news cycle.

"Why aren't you invading Venezuela or funding a coup like we did under Bush? You allowed an enemy of the US to get reelected!"

I would be unsurprised if he pulled this, if only to win votes in Florida when he inevitably ties Chavez to Castro.

Frijolero
Jan 24, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo

ekuNNN posted:

Well, the "bad for democracy" things we get here (in the Netherlands) about him are mostly just cult of personality stuff like his personal tv-show. But I'm betting that he still spends comparatively less on promoting himself than Obama (or any US president) does, for example.

Oh most definitely.

And I'm not worried about State-Owned media. I've seen what private media can do in the US and I am extremely discontent about it. Meanwhile, NPR (non-profit) is one the best media outlets which we have (by best I mean objective/fair)

Russell William Thorpe
Nov 18, 2004
Man the Venezuelan twitter feeds are interesting... a lot of them seem to be quite upset about the outcome.


Of course, if the opposition only got 3 minutes a day on TV I can understand why they would not think this was very democratic.

SexyBlindfold
Apr 24, 2008
i dont care how much probation i get capital letters are for squares hehe im so laid back an nice please read my low effort shitposts about the arab spring

thanxs!!!

Russell William Thorpe posted:

Has a right-wing leader in Central/South America ever lead to good things?

I guess you could say Óscar Arias had a good foreign policy (social democrat, though). And argentineans always freak out about this but Perón could be considered as right-wing depending on the perspective.
The number of leaders in Central/South America that have lead to good things can be counted with the fingers of a single hand, and if we're talking about those whose good things have prevailed over time instead of fizzing out right after they step out of power, the list would include José Figueres and... that's about it.

Frijolero
Jan 24, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo

Russell William Thorpe posted:

Man the Venezuelan twitter feeds are interesting... a lot of them seem to be quite upset about the outcome.


Of course, if the opposition only got 3 minutes a day on TV I can understand why they would not think this was very democratic.

It probably has more to do with them being middle-class.

Russell William Thorpe
Nov 18, 2004
What does "Me Iria Demasiado" mean?

Must Love Dogs
May 6, 2005

and the sky is filled with light can you see it?

ComradeCosmobot posted:

I was more commenting that Romney will have ample room to use Venezuela as a talking point to bash Obama on now that a "foreign policy loss" (as far as Republicans are concerned) has entered the news cycle.

"Why aren't you invading Venezuela or funding a coup like we did under Bush? You allowed an enemy of the US to get reelected!"

I would be unsurprised if he pulled this, if only to win votes in Florida when he inevitably ties Chavez to Castro.

This is perhaps the least important aspect of the story.


Russell William Thorpe posted:

Man the Venezuelan twitter feeds are interesting... a lot of them seem to be quite upset about the outcome.


Of course, if the opposition only got 3 minutes a day on TV I can understand why they would not think this was very democratic.

The opposition also had the entirety of the private media lined up behind them with a torrent of cash from the EU and the US government backstopping them, so...

Simone Poodoin
Jun 26, 2003

Che storia figata, ragazzo!



SexyBlindfold posted:

I guess you could say Óscar Arias had a good foreign policy (social democrat, though).

On his first term yes, on his second term he kicked out the Taiwanese embassy in exchange of Chinese money under the influence of his evil brother Rodrigo (who will probably win in 2014 because people are remarkably stupid). That was an extremely lovely thing to do to a country that had been our ally for decades

Sorry for the derail

ekuNNN
Nov 27, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
What are the ways in which Chavez is undemocratic? Do they weigh up against decreasing income disparity and the undemocratic power that wealth brings with it?

edit: vvv also, Venezuela is way better than Cuba regarding democracy, right?

ekuNNN fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Oct 8, 2012

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012


Lipstick Apathy
I'm guessing that it was a close election decided by the advantages of incumbency. Chavez has a loyal and highly effective political machine and I'd bet his use of state/PSUV resources to help turn out his supporters worked to his advantage.

That might be "unfair" to Caprilles but that's also ... politics. It's not the same thing as fixing the vote.

Frijolero posted:

I hope Chavez wins.

I've talked to both camps of Venezuelan people. Some have told me that things have gotten worse with Chavez. Toilet paper shortages seem to stick out the most in my mind.
On the left, I was told that Chavez has brought more good than harm. Lower class people are a lot better off it seems.
My talks with Venezuelans is limited to only one camp, but even then the views vary quite a bit.

On the one hand, I've heard that Chavez is a communist dictator who has given the country over to Cuba -- that's the more extreme anti-Chavez view. On the other (and this is coming from Chavez opponents), I've heard the areas where Venezuela has become demonstrably worse (particularly in terms of crime) date to the chaos of the 1990s anyways and are not easy to solve.

They also say Chavez's social programs have done a lot of good even if it's difficult to sort out exactly which programs are wasteful and which ones are working. Their main objection was that Chavez is a vain egomaniac who wants to concentrate authority under himself.

They also see attempts to tar Caprilles with the right-wing oligarchs as ridiculous, and that he's more of a "Lula-style" social democrat. But really everyone needs to calm down and it's not the end of the world if either is president.

ComradeCosmobot
Dec 4, 2004

USPOL July
^^^ I think this is probably the most cogent observation here (and I agree with it)

Must Love Dogs posted:

The opposition also had the entirety of the private media lined up behind them with a torrent of cash from the EU and the US government backstopping them, so...

But no one except the middle/upper class can afford to listen to the private media in Venezuela anymore since they've been run off the public airwaves... :confused:

ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Oct 8, 2012

Must Love Dogs
May 6, 2005

and the sky is filled with light can you see it?

ekuNNN posted:

What are the ways in which Chavez is undemocratic? Do they weigh up against decreasing income disparity and the undemocratic power that wealth bring with it?

Pretty sure that's what most of his critics specifically object to as being undemocratic.

Frijolero
Jan 24, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo

Russell William Thorpe posted:

What does "Me Iria Demasiado" mean?

Are you serious?

It means "I would leave (as in go) too much." It seems to be a meme. Someone said "I would leave too much" instead of saying "I would leave immediately."

It's a simple slip of the tongue or bad vocabulary.

SexyBlindfold
Apr 24, 2008
i dont care how much probation i get capital letters are for squares hehe im so laid back an nice please read my low effort shitposts about the arab spring

thanxs!!!

Drogadon posted:

On his first term yes, on his second term he kicked out the Taiwanese embassy in exchange of Chinese money under the influence of his evil brother Rodrigo (who will probably win in 2014 because people are remarkably stupid). That was an extremely lovely thing to do to a country that had been our ally for decades

Sorry for the derail

Hey, they squeezed a bridge out of the taiwanese and a stadium out of the chinese, that's a pretty good deal.

Russell William Thorpe
Nov 18, 2004

Frijolero posted:

Are you serious?

It means "I would leave (as in go) too much." It seems to be a meme. Someone said "I would leave too much" instead of saying "I would leave immediately."

It's a simple slip of the tongue or bad vocabulary.

Ahh, ok, thanks. People saying they'd leave if Chavez wins or something?

Must Love Dogs
May 6, 2005

and the sky is filled with light can you see it?

ComradeCosmobot posted:

But no one except the middle/upper class can afford to listen to the private media in Venezuela anymore since they've been run off the public airwaves... :confused:

No they haven't. Globovision is still on the air from Caracas, Aragua, Carabobo and Zulia and they are aggressively anti-Chavez.

ekuNNN
Nov 27, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Russell William Thorpe posted:

Ahh, ok, thanks. People saying they'd leave if Chavez wins or something?

It's probably the same as "If [US presidental candidate] wins I'm moving to Canada! :argh:"

ComradeCosmobot
Dec 4, 2004

USPOL July

Must Love Dogs posted:

No they haven't. Globovision is still on the air from Caracas, Aragua, Carabobo and Zulia and they are aggressively anti-Chavez.

Oh, okay. I will admit that the last I'd heard about media in the country was back when RCTV was shut down and moved to cable/satellite, and I thought I had heard that that had been the case with all anti-Chavez stations by that point.

Frijolero
Jan 24, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo
How about some quick social journalism?

"Caracas, City of Farewells"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsD8Edq2cgw

This is a video by what appear to be middle-class/upper-class Venezuelan youngsters. They claim that the situation is so bad that they are intending on leaving. Many of their friends have already left. It is really unpopular because many Venezuelans are offended by the idea of these young adults complaining about their conditions (also it seems that they think they are ditzy/innocent/dumb). The description says "Please don't clap when the airplane lands."

Though I'm not Venezuelan and know almost nothing about the conditions (aside from talking to several people from Caracas) it seems like this video is forced and biased. The people in the video must be relatively well-off if they can afford to leave. I've seen these sentiments among many middle-class/upper-class Venezolanos. They are anti-Chavez because they can afford to.

Frijolero fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Oct 8, 2012

Russell William Thorpe
Nov 18, 2004

ekuNNN posted:

It's probably the same as "If [US presidental candidate] wins I'm moving to Canada! :argh:"

Makes sense, thanks for answers. I do feel kind of bad for the people who are going to have to have 20 years of a President they hate, at least in America we are limited to 8. Of course this is good for the people who aren't going to be so poor I guess.

Which reminds me, the posts on the internet of rage are going to be tremendous on November 6th.

PrezCamachoo
Jan 21, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post
What about when you take into consideration Chavez's daily speeches that go into hours long rants that must be carried by all stations?

The Ender
Aug 2, 2012

MY OPINIONS ARE NOT WORTH THEIR WEIGHT IN SHIT

Must Love Dogs posted:

Pretty sure that's what most of his critics specifically object to as being undemocratic.

Pretty much.

Chavez is not perfect, and people like to point-out that he's not perfect while ignoring everything he has done for Venezuela. His policies overall have led to enormous growth and wealth equality, but critics will always say, "Well, [X] policy wasn't good, was it? Of course it wasn't. Therefore, Chavez is a failure."

Venezuela holds fair elections that are heavily monitored by the U.N., so if there's a problem, you'd think the capitalist hegemony would've pointed it out by now instead of just running superficial propaganda against Chavez.


It's fair to say that Chavez has a cult of personality surrounding him. It's also fair to say that Barack Obama has a cult of personality surrounding him, and Stephen Harper has a cult of personality surrounding him, and the late Jack Layton, and the Queen of England, and any other loving popular politician. But people point-out Chavez's like it's some grotesque exception rather than the norm (even if the norm is unhealthy).

It's fair to say that price fixing & a policy of emphasizing self-sufficiency has caused shortages of some goods, like milk. But every system has a trade-off, and in this case, the trade-off is that Venezuela is not beholden to the World Bank or IMF or any other loving capitalist trade treaty: they can vote how they like & do what they like without the IMF trying to 'restructure' communities in exchange for food / water. The whole economy also won't break just because a few bourgeoisie decided to make risky bets on housing, which is a plus in my book.


Western media & state officials hate him because he underscores the lie about capitalism being 'the only viable system'. They wish so badly that Venezuela was a failed state & dictatorship like North Korea.

Frijolero
Jan 24, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo

PrezCamachoo posted:

What about when you take into consideration Chavez's daily speeches that go into hours long rants that must be carried by all stations?

Kinda like how I can't enjoy the radio/TV/internet because I have to listen to corporate brainwashing?

The solution is TURN IT OFF.

The Ender
Aug 2, 2012

MY OPINIONS ARE NOT WORTH THEIR WEIGHT IN SHIT

quote:

What about when you take into consideration Chavez's daily speeches that go into hours long rants that must be carried by all stations?

This is an exaggeration / fantasy.

What do you consider the American Presidential debates, inauguration, addresses, etc?

ComradeCosmobot
Dec 4, 2004

USPOL July

The Ender posted:

This is an exaggeration / fantasy.

What do you consider the American Presidential debates, inauguration, addresses, etc?

To be fair, those don't happen every week like Aló Presidente does, and certainly not with the exaggerated excessive durations that have been ascribed to that show.

EDIT: On the other hand, there's no equivalent show in America in which "government ministers are required to attend the program. They may be questioned by the president about anything, and sometimes policy — even military policy — is made on the show."

ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Oct 8, 2012

PrezCamachoo
Jan 21, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post

The Ender posted:

Pretty much.

Chavez is not perfect, and people like to point-out that he's not perfect while ignoring everything he has done for Venezuela. His policies overall have led to enormous growth and wealth equality, but critics will always say, "Well, [X] policy wasn't good, was it? Of course it wasn't. Therefore, Chavez is a failure."


If his policies have been so good for the poor why has the crime rate gone through the roof since he came to power?

Why are there more people dieing violent deaths in Caracas than BAGHDAD?

Is poverty not related to crime?

ekuNNN
Nov 27, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

PrezCamachoo
Jan 21, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post

The Ender posted:

What do you consider the American Presidential debates, inauguration, addresses, etc?

Are you really comparing Chavez taking over all Venezuelan airwaves multiple times a week for hours on end to US political events?

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a bad enough dude
Jun 30, 2007

APPARENTLY NOT A BAD ENOUGH DUDE TO STICK TO ONE THING AT A TIME WHETHER ITS PBPS OR A SHITTY BROWSER GAME THAT I BEG MONEY FOR AND RIPPED FROM TROPICO. ALSO I LET RETARDED UKRANIANS THAT CAN'T PROGRAM AND HAVE 2000 HOURS IN GARRY'S MOD RUN MY SHIT.

PrezCamachoo posted:

If his policies have been so good for the poor why has the crime rate gone through the roof since he came to power?

Why are there more people dieing violent deaths in Caracas than BAGHDAD?

Is poverty not related to crime?

Between 1997 to 2007 the poverty rate dropped from 54.5% to 33.6%. So yeah, Chavez has had a direct effect of lifting millions out of poverty.

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