PrezCamachoo posted:

It was technically Chaven's closest election. So maybe down the line the new opposition will continue to grow and develop.

PrezCamachoo posted:

You got a quote on that?

quote:

I think you have to be very careful. The world outside there, both our friends and our foes, will be quick to take advantage of a situation if they think they’re dealing with a weak president or one who is not going to stand up and aggressively defend America’s interests

quote:

We have — I’m trying to think how to state this diplomatically.

(LAUGHTER)

Diplomacy is hard sometimes.

(LAUGHTER)

We have refrained from making public pronouncements about Mr. Chavez — I think, for good and legitimate reasons. He’s a — obviously, an individual with his own agenda. And he spends a great deal of his time worrying about us and criticizing the United States.

My own personal view is that he does not represent the future of Latin America. And the people of Peru (sic), I think, deserve better in their leadership. But that’s obviously a matter they’ve got to resolve for themselves.

ComradeCosmobot posted:

It's admittedly by way of a biased source, but this particular op/ed article suggests that cadenas are not exclusively being used for emergency purposes. At least, I cannot see why a speech by Chavez to steelworkers is an "emergency." But I'm willing to accept that the cadenas are not necessarily an emergency mechanism but rather a mechanism closer to American prime-time speeches given by the President (if, perhaps, excessive in quantity).

(Please note that I don't mean to reference the article to refer to the actual partisan substance in it, being an accusation of malfeasance in production, but rather specifically to the possible over-use of the cadena.)

EDIT: e;fb This was already linked above, and after all, an anecdote is not data.

The Ender posted:

At any rate, you didn't answer the question: Why do you think the Chavez administration is at fault for the violence in Venezuela?

The Ender posted:

This is an exaggeration / fantasy.

What do you consider the American Presidential debates, inauguration, addresses, etc?

The Ender posted:

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2007/11/02/17367/cheney-hugo-chavez-is-the-president-of-peru/


http://www.welt.de/english-news/article3593490/Cheney-criticizes-Obama-over-Chavez-handshake.html



It's also pretty funny to see Cheney slip-up and say Peru instead of Venezuela.

Ardennes posted:

I think the fact there is a very clear robust opposition media makes the critical difference, it isn't like Russia where you just have one choice and I haven't heard about ballot stuffing either.

I am sure a "dictatorship" narrative is going to start in the US, but abusing state tv isn't the same thing as a dictatorship.

PrezCamachoo posted:

Speaking of cadenas and crime....

http://tinyurl.com/9pa9jhs

That's right. Chavez used the emergency broadcast system, pushing aside any opposition programing that might have been playing, to air a conversation with Fidel Castro in which he comes up with the theory that the US is more dangerous than Venezuela because they have 5 CSI TV shows, 24, and Law and Order and Caracas has no equivalent police/crime shows. And that he could teach Obama how to fight the crime wave sweeping the US...

Never mind that the muder rate in Venezuela is more than 10 times the US...and that murder rate more than doubled under the presidency of Chavez.

beer_war posted:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/12/business/spanish-banks-in-rush-to-appear-trustworthy.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Edit: PrezCamachoo, you do know Chigüire is like the Onion in the US, right?

Starsfan posted:

Good to hear the news I guess. Just the fact that the opposition candidate was apparently receiving major amounts of funding from US and European governments is enough to tell you the people of Venezuala dodged a major bullet here.

quote:

According to a BBVA spokesman, Mr. Ybarra said the money was used to create directors' pension funds, to support the election of President Hugo Chávez in Venezuela and to buy up Banco Vizcaya shares to avoid a possible hostile takeover.

Judge Garzón is looking into whether all the i's were dotted and t's crossed when BBVA, which owns the large Venezuelan bank Banco Provincial, made donations worth $1.5 million to Mr. Chávez's campaign. BBVA has said the donations were completely legal.

PrezCamachoo posted:

1. How the hell is it possible to get such an awesome reduction of poverty and economic growth while also more than doubling the murder rate?
2. Why did Chavez decide to make government murder statistics state secrets?

PrezCamachoo posted:

Speaking of cadenas and crime....

http://tinyurl.com/9pa9jhs

That's right. Chavez used the emergency broadcast system, pushing aside any opposition programing that might have been playing, to air a conversation with Fidel Castro in which he comes up with the theory that the US is more dangerous than Venezuela because they have 5 CSI TV shows, 24, and Law and Order and Caracas has no equivalent police/crime shows. And that he could teach Obama how to fight the crime wave sweeping the US...

Never mind that the muder rate in Venezuela is more than 10 times the US...and that murder rate more than doubled under the presidency of Chavez.

SexyBlindfold posted:

Chiguire is a site devoted to political satire. Thanks though.

e:f;b

SexyBlindfold posted:

Chiguire is a site devoted to political satire. Thanks though.

e:f;b

beer_war posted:

Edit: PrezCamachoo, you do know Chigüire is like the Onion in the US, right?

Hugoon Chavez posted:

Hey dudes in d&d! I don't hang around here much, but here's my two cents as someone born and raised in Venezuela, now living in Spain!

This isn't about if the other candidate is or isn't a "puppet" of anyone. This is about quality of life, safety and base human rights. Since Chavez took office in 1999 (that's 12 years, folks) the country has steadily become a horrible place to live. People live in fear as any day you leave your home, anything could happen to you. I spend my youth in this environment, and my mom would just die worrying if I was ok, everytime I went out to concerts or whatever. I've been robbed at gunpoint, knifepoint, mugged, beaten unconscious and shot at, and a couple of those where the police or the military itself. I've had friends kidnapped in their own home, friends that the military stole the car from, and many, MANY friends that have fled the country because they can't progress there. Now I'm one of those, too.

I've been rejected education because I didn't support Chavez. Friends of mine have been fired because they voted against him in elections (which votes were supposed to be secret). There are thousands of reported human rights violation, and the people that have done something against Chavez authority have been hunted down and imprisoned. Hell, they even threatened the people tweeting against him.

You guys need to start thinking about Chavez not as the socialist golden boy, the face of the movement for the new century, because he is not. He is a Dictator that cares nothing about his country, and played social insecurity, but as a Dictator that played social insecurities to his favor, creating a divide between supporters and non supporters so big that I fear a civil war coming eventually down the road. The divide is so strong, and his supporters enjoy such impunity, that if you walk trough one of the main arteries of Caracas (the capital, and my hometown) with something that represents the opposition, you have a seriously high chance of getting shot.


It's easy to put Chavez on a pedestal as a major thorn in the capitalist system you are so against, when you don't live in Venezuela and when you haven't suffered the horrible things that go on there. But look at the way you live and compare it to even the venezuelan middle class, and realize that, if you support Chavez out of your idealism, you are saying that your political activism is more important than the people, that it doesn't matter what he really does or how he treats the people he's responsible of, as long as he falls in your socialist poster boy role.


It's a loving shame that he won the elections. My wife literally cried at 4 am when we saw the news, and I'm scared shitless for my mom and friends still remaining there. Knowing that everything you suffered trough and fought to escape off has been reconfirmed and given impulse is seriously depressing.

The other candidate, Capriles Radonski (at least know his name if you are going to accuse him of getting funded by capitalist interests, which is probably just typical Chavez verbal diarrhea) at least promised an effort for reuniting the country. Chavez has said many times that anyone that's opposed to him can stick their vote up their asses (and I'm not being poetic, he said that), and that all of his followers should fight for him against those who are not. Rob them, kill them, that'll show them.

Anyway, this was mostly a rant, so sorry for that, but hopefully it gives you an inside perspective of things in Venezuela, and of things to come after this election.

powerful drum sound posted:

Yo just curious but did your family live through the caracazo? Was your family living in extreme poverty before 1999? Was your family forced to feed their children dog food to survive in the 90s? Were your family members locked up for organizing leftist students after the 92 coups? Has your family been a part of the communal councils? somehow I doubt you've even been to one. guess what, I have, and they're not echo chambers but rather extremely democratic systems. What I saw in Venezuela was probably the most vibrant political culture I've ever seen in my life.

The idea that opposition members are getting shot in the streets is so incredibly ludicrous to me but I guess it makes sense to a rich expat? When was the last time you even went to Caracas? I was there in March and rest assured that opposition propaganda was all across the city in full force. If youre just talking about the barrios like 23 de Enero it seems irrelevant seeing as how Capriles supporters would never go there due to the economic segregation of the city (I've also had free debates about chavez and other issues while in that barrio, fyi)

Hugoon Chavez posted:

It's funny that you challenge my point of view as a "rich expat", when your point of view is biased by you being a political tourist. You are right about something, our political culture sure is vibrant, to die for! Never a dull day in Caracas! I specially loved that time Chavez decided to expropriate private banks, and never completely gave back the money! Or how about the thousands of pictures of his daughter traveling the world, meeting celebrities, and holding thousands of dollars, while the rest of the population have to go to a bunch of legal hoops, requests and regulations just to buy 200 bucks (or be denied the choice)?

powerful drum sound posted:

The idea that opposition members are getting shot in the streets is so incredibly ludicrous to me but I guess it makes sense to a rich expat?

Nonsense posted:

Yes no President's family ever does things like have fun on the states dime, have you heard Barack Obama's family hangs out with celebrities at fancy parties, while there are millions of people going hungry?

Do Chavez critics, just look at Chavez, and hold him to some kind of standard, that nobody else is held up to?

Also yes I'm sure he just stole money from your private banks and nobody except your secret in the know opposition friends know the truth.

Oh he helps the poor, better make sure he and his family are poor too, just because fair is fair! Can you believe he shut down a television station that instigated his coup attempt, what a fascist!

Nonsense posted:

Yes no President's family ever does things like have fun on the states dime, have you heard Barack Obama's family hangs out with celebrities at fancy parties, while there are millions of people going hungry?

Do Chavez critics, just look at Chavez, and hold him to some kind of standard, that nobody else is held up to?

Also yes I'm sure he just stole money from your private banks and nobody except your secret in the know opposition friends know the truth.

Oh he helps the poor, better make sure he and his family are poor too, just because fair is fair! Can you believe he shut down a television station that instigated his coup attempt, what a fascist!

Hugoon Chavez posted:

And shutting down a television station that instigated his coup? What RCTV (said station) did that provoked the backlash that would eventually shut it down was refuse to transmit a forced broadcast of some Bolivarian propaganda while the opposition's manifestation near the presidential house was being SHOT AT by chavist followers and police.

quote:

There is no consensus as to who was responsible for the deaths on 11 April 2002, and this remains one of the most controversial issues in Venezuelan politics today. The opposition version of events puts the blame on Chávez, or at least on his supporters. A Venevisión camera positioned on a rooftop that afternoon captured images of people using handguns to shoot from the pro-Chávez counter-march being held on Puente Llaguno, an overpass that crosses one of central Caracas's busiest avenues; it is unclear who they are shooting at, but the opposition narrative is that they were shooting at the opposition march and responsible for the deaths. The gunmen argue that they were, in fact, returning fire at unknown snipers and Metropolitan Police firing towards them. The documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised shows footage captured from another angle by an amateur cameraman of the gunmen firing while the street below is empty; another documentary, X-Ray of a Lie argues the former's footage obscures Metropolitan Police trucks on the street below. The 2004 documentary Puente Llaguno: Claves de una Masacre showed that the Chavistas on the bridge did not begin shooting until 4.38pm, by which time most of the opposition deaths had already occurred. In addition, most of the opposition deaths were at least 300 yards away from the bridge, too far to be killed by the Chavistas' pistols with the precise head shots witnessed.

Niwrad posted:

Violence seems like a huge issue in the country and there are good reasons to believe that Chavez has made it worse during his reign.

Hugoon Chavez posted:

Hugoon Chavez posted:

I specially loved that time Chavez decided to expropriate private banks, and never completely gave back the money! Or how about the thousands of pictures of his daughter traveling the world, meeting celebrities, and holding thousands of dollars, while the rest of the population have to go to a bunch of legal hoops, requests and regulations just to buy 200 bucks (or be denied the choice)?

Paul MaudDib posted:

And see here we get to the actual core of your objections with Chavez. You're upset that he nationalized banks/oil companies/telcos/etc. You know what, that's not entirely a bad thing. Iceland nationalized their banks in 2008 and "never returned all the money", and frankly we should have done that here in the US. Family members of rich and influential people travel the world and do fun things, film at 11! I'm sure the daughter of whoever the right-wing opposition is has spent a vacation or two in the Caribbean or wherever it is people down there go on vacation, just like all the captains of industry who fund his campaign, just like Obama's family has, just like Romney's family has. And capital controls aren't necessarily a terrible idea, they're meant to encourage the formation of domestic industry while preventing all the foreign currency from fleeing the country.

All of the things you've complained about are basically irrelevant or entirely valid tactics to deal with some of the inequalities and injustices inherent in capitalism. They just don't benefit the wealthy, which is why all the privately- owned (read: wealthy-owned) media are blasting them. We have the same thing here, it's called Fox News and it's absurd.

If there's actual violence and abuse of the state police authority, sure, bitch about that. But "that Socialist Chavez rewarding his followers" sounds an awful lot like bitching about how Obama has created a state where 47% of people will vote for him because he gives them welfare checks. It's the exact same rhetoric all the plutocrat-financed media screams here, and I can tell you it's bullshit here for sure.

a bad enough dude posted:

Reading the flood of whining and bullshit that has come out since the election by wealthy Venezuelan expats has actually made me more supportive of Chavez. The only thing of real concern that has been brought up is the crime rate, which seems to be more a fault of the shifting and intensifying drug war than any of Chavez's policies.

Chewbacca Defense posted:

It's almost as fun as reading the mental gymnastics some of you people are doing to justify the continued rule of a dictator.

Chewbacca Defense posted:

It's almost as fun as reading the mental gymnastics some of you people are doing to justify the continued rule of a dictator.

a bad enough dude posted:

Reading the flood of whining and bullshit that has come out since the election by wealthy Venezuelan expats has actually made me more supportive of Chavez. The only thing of real concern that has been brought up is the crime rate, which seems to be more a fault of the shifting and intensifying drug war than any of Chavez's policies.

Hugoon Chavez posted:

Also, I'm not saying the bank thing is a secret. Around 6 big banks in Venezuela got expropriated and thousand of accounts lost a lot of money. My mom lost a tiny bit, but my wife's mom loss basically all of her money and recovered about half after months of really difficult paperwork and a lot of rear end kissing. Here's a kind of right timeline.

Niwrad posted:

The guy has a first hand account of what goes on in the country, lived through it, and people attack him because it's critical of their mythical socialist hero (who they support at a safe distance in a first world country).

ComradeCosmobot posted:

If you're going to harp on his regulation and management of industries, a better argument might be with respect to PDVSA over the past decade, especially the aftermath of the 2002-03 strike.

To what extent is it ethical to fire employees participating in a strike? Most liberal/socialists on this board would agree that firing low-level union employees is inappropriate, but what about the 18,000 PDVSA workers (40% of all employees) who were fired after striking? Reading between the lines, these workers are possibly (or at least may have been led by) management types. Does that justify their being fired for striking?

quote:

After April's 2002 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt conflict simmered throughout the rest of 2002. On 14 August the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, in what appeared a politically motivated decision, absolved four military officers involved in the April coup. This set the scene for further actions by the military.[1][2]
Plaza Francia in Altamira

On 21 October a one-day general strike (paro) took place (two general strikes had taken place in December 2001 and in April 2002[3]), aimed at forcing the resignation of Chávez or at least the calling of new elections.[4] On 22 October 14 military officers who had been suspended for participating in the coup, led by General Enrique Medina Gómez, occupied Plaza Francia in Altamira. a wealthy Eastern Caracas neighbourhood, and declared it a "liberated territory".[5] They said they would not leave until Chávez had resigned, and called on their colleagues in the military to take up arms against him.[6]

In early November, there was a major clash of government and opposition demonstrators in downtown Caracas; and, in the middle of the month, a shootout which resulted in three deaths occurred in Caracas' Plaza Bolivar between the Metropolitan Police and the National Guard.[7]

The Coordinadora Democrática, led by the business federation Fedecámaras and the trade union federation Confederación de Trabajadores de Venezuela (CTV), called for a fourth paro cívico, which turned out to be the most serious, and is known as the 2002–2003 oil lockout/strike, to begin on 2 December 2002. The opposition also called a recall-referendum-petition-signature-gathering day for 4 December.[8] Initially the strike had a mixed response, with affluent eastern Caracas seeing most shops closed, while downtown and western Caracas was busy; many business owners either supported Chávez or put their business above politics. Early attempts to block a crucial navigation channel in Lake Maracaibo, in order to paralyse the oil industry, were foiled by the navy. The National Electoral Council voted to hold a non-binding recall referendum on 2 February, but the Coordinadora Democrática chose to ignore it.[9] On 4 December the captain of a large oil tanker named for the beauty queen Pilín León anchored in the Lake Maracaibo shipping channel and refused to move. The rest of PDVSA 13-ship fleet was quickly similarly grounded. Combined with the PDVSA management walkout, this effectively paralysed the Venezuelan oil industry.[10]

The key element of the paro was the stoppage of production at the state oil company Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), which was effected by management's locking workers out of facilities, along with the shipping shutdown. Many low and mid-level employees ignored the strike and reported for work.[11] Unlike the previous strikes, this oil strike included not only the PDVSA management but also substantial parts of its operational staff, including virtually all of its marine flotilla captains. Within days the company was paralyzed.

quote:

The Confederación de Trabajadores de Venezuela (CTV, English: Confederation of Workers of Venezuela) is a federation of labor unions in Venezuela. It has close links to the Democratic Action party.

The union federation has been a consistent and key opponent of Venezulean President Hugo Chávez. In the year 2001, two years after his first election to President, Chávez's government ordered the union federation to undertake its first-ever direct leadership elections. Although the Supreme Court refused to certify the results, the winner Carlos Ortega assumed the presidency. The International Labour Organisation (ILO) and International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU) condemned Chávez's interference in the affairs of free trade unions.

quote:

The National Workers' Union of Venezuela (Spanish: Unión Nacional de Trabajadores de Venezuela, UNT) is a federation of labor unions in Venezuela that was founded in 2003. This union was created by supporters of Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez to challenge the Workers' Confederation of Venezuela (CTV), an anti-Chávez union federation that has strong ties with the centrist Democratic Action (AD). Many unions have disaffiliated from the CTV and joined with the UNT. Because of this, the UNT has become the biggest union federation in Venezuela whose contracts cover the majority of Venezuela's organized working class.

Paul MaudDib posted:

You're upset at Chavez for firing the striking executives and managers, instead of, you know, the guys the executives were striking in support of, the guys who tried to force a democratically elected leader out of office at gunpoint?

ComradeCosmobot posted:

A lot of that is why I exercised caution in my statements there. Certainly there's evidence that most of the lower-tier workers (pro-Chavez) were not involved and there's enough that suggests that, indeed, most of those "unions" were hijacked by management types. Still, I don't see how it is fair to say that it's okay that the 14,000 employees who participated in this management-led strike should be fired when I'm sure everyone would agree that it would be wrong if those 14,000 fired employees had been protesting on Chavez's behalf.

R. Mute posted:

Forgive us for being a bit wary about the testimony of expats. They - by default - paint a very one-sided and coloured picture. Just look at the Cuban expats.