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Majorian posted:You're going to have to back this up with evidence, because I'm pretty sure you're talking out of your rear end here. It's a conjecture. Count up all the people imprisoned, killed and brutalized because of the drug war -- and because of drug dealers having to enforce property rights amongst themselves and their customers -- and compare it to the number of people who have suffered because of prejudice against homosexuals. Yes there was a mass shooting on Sunday in Orlando that killed 50 homosexuals, but literally tens of thousands of people died in Mexico over the past few years because of the drug war. Heck, even keep the focus national. How many people have been more harmed in the USA because of drug policies vs how many have been harmed because of prejudice against gays? Can you give me an easy answer to this? Regardless, it's fair to think about this and ask why among liberals one issue gets so much focus and resources and the other is relegated to the back of the queue in causes to champion.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:30
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KingEup posted:Holy gently caress the GLBTI community marched in Sydney (Australia) for the rights of drug users and helped establish our first drug consumption room because they saw the parallels with their own struggle. It would be loving bizarre for anyone in the queer rights movement in this country to diminish the importance of drug user rights. I am in the community first off. I'm also a drug user and have friends in prison because of drug use. It's still not comparable. You're not any loving ally of mine if you're going to pull this sorta bullshit.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:32
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KingEup posted:Holy gently caress the GLBTI community marched in Sydney (Australia) for the rights of drug users and helped establish our first drug consumption room because they saw the parallels with their own struggle. It would be loving bizarre for anyone in the queer rights movement in this country to diminish the importance of drug user rights. uh dude in the US our AIDS epidemic started in the gay community and the president of the united states loving laughed about it I don't think you understand the kind of history people in the US have with gay people
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Jun 14, 2016 04:32
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objects in mirror posted:It's a conjecture. Count up all the people imprisoned, killed and brutalized because of the drug war -- and because of drug dealers having to enforce property rights amongst themselves and their customers -- and compare it to the number of people who have suffered because of prejudice against homosexuals. Yes there was a mass shooting on Sunday in Orlando that killed 50 homosexuals, but literally tens of thousands of people died in Mexico over the past few years because of the drug war. Heck, even keep the focus national. How many people have been more harmed in the USA because of drug policies vs how many have been harmed because of prejudice against gays? Can you give me an easy answer to this? Regardless, it's fair to think about this and ask why among liberals one issue gets so much focus and resources and the other is relegated to the back of the queue in causes to champion. dude please stop posting just stop you will thank me tomorrow.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:33
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objects in mirror posted:Regardless, it's fair to think about this and ask why among liberals one issue gets so much focus and resources and the other is relegated to the back of the queue in causes to champion. I'm going to pretend that you're not talking conjectural nonsense and ask you why you think LGBT rights gets such an, in your opinion, inordinate amount of focus. Is it some sort of plot? I mean clearly you have issues with trans people, is that related?
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Jun 14, 2016 04:35
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KingEup posted:Holy gently caress the GLBTI community marched in Sydney (Australia) for the rights of drug users and helped establish our first drug consumption room because they saw the parallels with their own struggle. It would be loving bizarre for anyone in the queer rights movement in this country to diminish the importance of drug user rights. Except, here's the thing - drug users in this thread are vocally trying to diminish the importance of the LGBT rights movement, a day after 50 LGBT people were massacred for being LGBT. Whether you care to admit it or not, there is a difference between being persecuted for something you choose to do (smoke weed), and something you do not choose to do (be gay). They are both bad things, but a big part of life is that there are degrees of "bad things." Persecuting somebody for something innate to their being that they did not choose about themselves is, in and of itself, usually worse than persecuting somebody for a thing that they elect to do. Now, add to that the fact that millions of LGBT people died painfully and without aid from AIDS, tens of thousands of LGBT people were murdered during the Holocaust, and were tortured, executed, or driven to suicide for thousands of years throughout human history, and you've got a far bigger picture than the one you've painted. I'm not saying that LGBT rights in the U.S. is a more important issue overall than ending the worldwide Drug War, because that's a very complicated statement. But what I am saying, is that your rights as a pot smoker? Compared to the rights of LGBT people to not be murdered for being who they innately are, I'm not terribly concerned about your right to smoke weed. (and I do say that as somebody who believes we need to legalize it) Majorian fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 04:41
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objects in mirror posted:I could have an urgent desire to smoke weed, much like a gay man could have an urgent desire for some dick. Come on, man. Liberty is liberty. Your funtime recreational activity is not equivalent to something that is a core part of a human's identity. If you can't understand this I pity you. Except for the fact that the day after 50 gay people were killed you've decided that LGBT people need to tone it down.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:46
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Sharkie posted:Your funtime recreational activity is not equivalent to something that is a core part of a human's identity. If you can't understand this I pity you. Except for the fact that the day after 50 gay people were killed you've decided that LGBT people need to tone it down. LorrdErnie posted:I am in the community first off. I'm also a drug user and have friends in prison because of drug use. It's still not comparable. You're not any loving ally of mine if you're going to pull this sorta bullshit. Using drugs and being gay are the same thing, really.
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Jun 14, 2016 05:04
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Majorian posted:Whether you care to admit it or not, there is a difference between being persecuted for something you choose to do (smoke weed), and something you do not choose to do (be gay). They are both bad things, but a big part of life is that there are degrees of "bad things." Persecuting somebody for something innate to their being that they did not choose about themselves is, in and of itself, usually worse than persecuting somebody for a thing that they elect to do. Except 'being born gay' hasn't been a winning argument when it actually comes to challenging statute. Sodomy laws were struck down because SCOTUS held that they violated 14th ammendment guarantees, which just happen to be the same guarentees that cannabis prohibition violates. In other words, anti gay and anti cannabis laws are wrong for the same reason. KingEup fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 05:25
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Majorian posted:Except, here's the thing - drug users in this thread are vocally trying to diminish the importance of the LGBT rights movement, a day after 50 LGBT people were massacred for being LGBT. Whether you care to admit it or not, there is a difference between being persecuted for something you choose to do (smoke weed), and something you do not choose to do (be gay). They are both bad things, but a big part of life is that there are degrees of "bad things." Persecuting somebody for something innate to their being that they did not choose about themselves is, in and of itself, usually worse than persecuting somebody for a thing that they elect to do. Source?
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Jun 14, 2016 05:39
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KingEup posted:Except 'being born gay' hasn't been a winning argument when it actually comes to challenging statute. Sodomy laws were struck down because SCOTUS held that they violated 14th ammendment guarantees, which just happen to be the same guarentees that cannabis prohibition violates. In other words, anti gay and anti cannabis laws are wrong for the same reason. Holy God this is an unconvincing argument. The fact that you are not legally entitled to engage in a recreational activity is not a violation of your 14th amendment rights, if nobody else is legally entitled to do so either. The 14th amendment applies to the lgbt community because prohibitions on things like marriage equality do not recognize that they are entitled to the same rights as everybody else, and that immutable aspects of their being should not be barriers to having those rights protected. And that's just from a legal perspective. Saying that they're "wrong for the same reason" is idiotic, because they're wrong on a moral level for completely different reasons.
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Jun 14, 2016 05:43
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Majorian posted:Holy God this is an unconvincing argument. The fact that you are not legally entitled to engage in a recreational activity is not a violation of your 14th amendment rights, if nobody else is legally entitled to do so either. The 14th amendment applies to the lgbt community because prohibitions on things like marriage equality do not recognize that they are entitled to the same rights as everybody else, and that immutable aspects of their being should not be barriers to having those rights protected. Did they plead the 14th?? Someone's been drunkenly watching too much Tru TV.
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Jun 14, 2016 05:45
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e: ahahaha, I didn't realize that "Object in mirror" is a different poster.
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Jun 14, 2016 05:46
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Majorian posted:Except, here's the thing - drug users in this thread are vocally trying to diminish the importance of the LGBT rights movement, a day after 50 LGBT people were massacred for being LGBT. Whether you care to admit it or not, there is a difference between being persecuted for something you choose to do (smoke weed), and something you do not choose to do (be gay). They are both bad things, but a big part of life is that there are degrees of "bad things." Persecuting somebody for something innate to their being that they did not choose about themselves is, in and of itself, usually worse than persecuting somebody for a thing that they elect to do. Stressing the possible biological root of homosexuality above all else is counterproductive in my opinion, because I'm someone who thinks homosexuality should be accepted even if it is a choice. Saying "I can't help it" all the time appears to acknowledge that it is on the surface a bad thing but it should be tolerated because the person just can't help it. Screw that. But let's go your route and stress biology. The partaking of mind-altering substances is common to most cultures, and it's so extensive that it can be fairly argued that this desire is innate. Much like the homosexual can't resist his urges, so too (with their being natural variability in this desire among the population and all) can't lots and lots of people not help their desire to partake of substances that allow them to temporarily escape the tyranny of consciousness. So if you people are going to dismiss drug use as merely a choice, I counter that it's an innate desire, perhaps as innate a desire (if not more so, given the proportion of humans who use drugs/alcohol vs those who are gay) as homosexuality. This is a book that makes the the case that humans have a natural desire for intoxication: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594770697/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3H52XOS2C26YB&coliid=IUW65R697I95Z
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Jun 14, 2016 05:56
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objects in mirror posted:Stressing the possible biological root of homosexuality above all else is counterproductive in my opinion, because I'm someone who thinks homosexuality should be accepted even if it is a choice. Saying "I can't help it" all the time appears to acknowledge that it is on the surface a bad thing but it should be tolerated because the person just can't help it. Screw that. Those are some good points that explain how drug use is the same thing as being gay. Are you me?
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Jun 14, 2016 05:58
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objects in mirror posted:Stressing the possible biological root of homosexuality above all else is counterproductive in my opinion, because I'm someone who thinks homosexuality should be accepted even if it is a choice. Saying "I can't help it" all the time appears to acknowledge that it is on the surface a bad thing but it should be tolerated because the person just can't help it. Screw that. Except for the fact that it is an immutable aspect of LGBT people's existence, just as being black is an immutable aspect of a black person's existence. I'm sorry, but you can't equate your struggle with that of LGBT people. It's not the same thing. Your being a pothead is not an immutable aspect of your existence - you can cease to be a marijuana user. A gay person cannot cease to be a gay person. And again, good God - how could you possibly have thought this was a good time for you to make this terrible argument?
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Jun 14, 2016 05:59
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Majorian posted:Except for the fact that it is an immutable aspect of LGBT people's existence, just as being black is an immutable aspect of a black person's existence. I'm sorry, but you can't equate your struggle with that of LGBT people. It's not the same thing. And the desire for mind-altering substances is immutable too. You can scare people away from partaking in marijuana, but that doesn't eliminate the desire, much like sodomy laws didn't eliminate the desire for butt sex.
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Jun 14, 2016 06:01
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Majorian posted:Except for the fact that it is an immutable aspect of LGBT people's existence, just as being black is an immutable aspect of a black person's existence. I'm sorry, but you can't equate your struggle with that of LGBT people. It's not the same thing. Your being a pothead is not an immutable aspect of your existence - you can cease to be a marijuana user. A gay person cannot cease to be a gay person. "They were born gay" is a common and untrue argument. Nobody is born gay or straight. This article explains why: https://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/
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Jun 14, 2016 06:05
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objects in mirror posted:And the desire for mind-altering substances is immutable too. It's really not. I know you want to believe what that quack-written book says, but it's BS. e: Publisher's Weekly: quote:The pursuit of intoxification through drugs, according to UCLA psychopharmacologist Siegel, is the ``fourth drive,'' as deep-rooted as our instinctual cravings for food, drink and sex. Therefore, he argues, the war on drugs is doomed to failure; ``the answer is to make drugs perfectly safe and unabusable'' via clinical and pharmacological research. To arrive at this highly debatable conclusion, Siegel leads readers through obnoxious animal experiments, in some of which hallucinogens are fed to monkeys, alcohol to elephants and hemp seeds to pigeons. His extrapolations from wild animals' consumption of psychoactive plants to people's addictions to drugs are often facile. Although chapters on alcohol, opium, cocaine, cannabis, etc. pack a welter of details, this volume seems suspect in both its theorizing and its interpretation of experiments. Author tour. (June) Majorian fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 06:05
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Majorian posted:e: ahahaha, I didn't realize that "Object in mirror" is a different poster.
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Jun 14, 2016 06:06
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this thread is suffering ego loss
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Jun 14, 2016 06:08
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Majorian posted:It's really not. I know you want to believe what that quack-written book says, but it's BS. Failed your major huh?
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Jun 14, 2016 06:08
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Majorian posted:It's really not. I know you want to believe what that quack-written book says, but it's BS. quote:Ronald Keith Siegel (born 1943) is an American psychopharmacologist who was an associate research professor in the Department of Psychiatry and Biobehavioral Sciences at the University of California, Los Angeles. Siegel is the author of several noted studies and books on psychopharmacology, hallucination, and paranoia.[1] He has studied, lectured, and conducted research at Brandeis University, Harvard Medical School, Dalhousie University, and the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, and has been a consultant to several government commissions on drug use. His research has focused on the effects of drugs on human behavior, and has included numerous clinical studies in which human volunteers (sometimes referred to by Siegel as "psychonauts") have taken drugs such as ketamine, LSD, marijuana, mescaline, psilocybin, and THC.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_K._Siegel edit: Majorian, quoting a paragraph's PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY summary of the book is ridiculous. It's not zero sum, you know. Both the desire for drugs and homosexuality could be innate. The former being true doesn't diminish the latter. objects in mirror fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 06:10
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Object in mirror posted:Failed your major huh? You're either Bernice Anders, or MIGF. That's my guess. Yeah, he's a quack, and you're not terribly bright for having believed him. quote:edit: Majorian, quoting a paragraph's PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY summary of the book is ridiculous. It's not zero sum, you know. Both the desire for drugs and homosexuality could be innate. The former being true doesn't diminish the latter. Which is why you were whining about the attention that the LGBT community gets and started equating your struggle with theirs, a day after 50 of them got massacred for being LGBT. Majorian fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 06:11
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Majorian posted:You're either Bernice Anders, or MIGF. That's my guess. Projecting!!! (from a rear projection CRT bulb.) (objects in mirror you are a great writer. Holy poo poo. Seriously.) Object in mirror fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 06:16
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Majorian posted:You're either Bernice Anders, or MIGF. That's my guess. Well you sincerely quoted that PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY summary of his work so he must be a quack. PS: When liberal scientists were arguing that homosexuality was innate, they used to point to animal behavior, like ducks. Your hilariously inept PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY critique faults Siegel for using animal studies. Were you being serious with that link?
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Jun 14, 2016 06:16
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Please, tell us more about how your persecution for being a drug user is equal to that of LGBT people, who get murdered regularly for being LGBT. Also, you didn't read the Publisher's Weekly snippet I quoted.
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Jun 14, 2016 06:19
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Object in mirror posted:(objects in mirror you are a great writer. Holy poo poo. Seriously.)
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Jun 14, 2016 06:23
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Majorian posted:Also, you didn't read the Publisher's Weekly snippet I quoted. An unsigned paragraph's length critique from a trade magazine that specializes in books is not evidence of anything you half-wit.
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Jun 14, 2016 07:37
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wowie the last few pages of this thread have been truly great! here's to hoping at least a few states vote to legalize in 2k16
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Jun 14, 2016 07:40
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objects in mirror posted:An unsigned paragraph's length critique from a trade magazine that specializes in books is not evidence of anything you half-wit. Seriously, you need to back up your suggestion that you, an American pothead, experience a similar level of persecution as an LGBT person living in the U.S.
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Jun 14, 2016 08:11
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Majorian posted:Seriously, you need to back up your suggestion that you, an American pothead, experience a similar level of persecution as an LGBT person living in the U.S. Not me personally, but millions of people have experienced harms due to drug prohibition equal to or greater than harms experienced by the average gay person due to homophobia. Why is this so hard for you to accept or even acknowledge as possible?
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Jun 14, 2016 08:18
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objects in mirror posted:Not me personally, but millions of people have experienced harms due to drug prohibition equal to or greater than harms experienced by the average gay person due to homophobia. Why is this so hard for you to accept or even acknowledge as possible? I have acknowledged that lots of people have suffered and died unnecessarily under the Drug War. What I and others here take issue with are these characterizations: quote:LBGTQ advocates are sucking up political capital and oxygen in the hope of creating a utopia where humans are all tolerant and accepting of gays and in the process perhaps block progress on other issues that actually stem from direct government action. objects in mirror posted:And the desire for mind-altering substances is immutable too. You can scare people away from partaking in marijuana, but that doesn't eliminate the desire, much like sodomy laws didn't eliminate the desire for butt sex. Seriously, do you not see why these were incredibly lovely things to say a day after a bunch of lgbt people got massacred?
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Jun 14, 2016 08:23
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this has been the stupidest loving slapfight and has literally nothing to do with drug legalization whatsoever gently caress all of you terrible posters fake edit: so I'm not misconstrued, what happened on Sunday was a goddamned tragedy but jesus loving christ you all suck
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Jun 14, 2016 08:43
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Unbelievably stupid
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