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Faffel
Dec 31, 2008


Mederlock posted:

You can't honestly say you enjoy how clunky (ala Metro 2033)

Metro 2033 was clunky? What?

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Sniper Party
Feb 17, 2011

Vom Tag


Mordaedil posted:

I disagree with your assessment, but that's because I don't really consider Arma "games" to be enjoyed to play, in the same way you enjoy playing Counter-Strike or Quake or Half-Life.

I enjoy it because of it's complexities, and taking it away kinda takes away from what makes Arma different from Operation Flashpoint(current ones).

It's just not meant to be that kind of shooter, I feel.
Making the inventory system not offensively obtuse and having the soldiers be able to switch targets in less than an aeon won't turn the game into a fast-paced game with dudes headshotting foes while spinning in the air. It's not even a question of realism versus gameplay since the current lack of movement fluidity and aiming responsiveness makes urban warfare and CQC in particular almost impossible to perform realistically.

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008


Control Volume posted:

So will it be possible to create James Bond scenarios where people are shooting at eachother underwater with harpoon guns?

I might have to pick this game up if so.
You'll have to pick this game up then... but replace "harpoon guns" with "underwater assault rifles".

Also, two minutes earlier in that video, the new "tactical pace" movement speed, which is also visible in some other videos.

Steeltalon
Feb 14, 2012

Perps were uncooperative.


A Sloth posted:

I hope it doesn't run like poo poo, like the other ArmA games. (It will)

The E3 demo machines reported to have been running at 60fps on a single 580 with an SSD. I dont remember the CPU but it wasn't anything fancy or overclocked. Arma has always been a CPU heavy platform. Performance is usually tied to the number of objects and units going on at a given time. Once that CPU overhead is improved we'll hopefully see some significant performance increases for the game.

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008


Mordaedil posted:

I disagree with your assessment, but that's because I don't really consider Arma "games" to be enjoyed to play, in the same way you enjoy playing Counter-Strike or Quake or Half-Life.
Sounds to me like "VBS2 Personal Edition" is what you're really looking for. At least you've got a more reasonable take than answers like this.

Sniper Party posted:

Making the inventory system not offensively obtuse and having the soldiers be able to switch targets in less than an aeon won't turn the game into a fast-paced game with dudes headshotting foes while spinning in the air. It's not even a question of realism versus gameplay since the current lack of movement fluidity and aiming responsiveness makes urban warfare and CQC in particular almost impossible to perform realistically.
This is pretty much why both Arma 3 and DayZ (standalone) are dumping the Arma 2 inventory menu, though there's only imagery/footage of the Arma 3 one that I linked earlier, and why Smookie (of "Smookie Animations" fame) became a BI animations dev whose work is almost certainly the lead influence behind the current Arma 3 movement system, alongside Vespa, and who apparently mo-capped the majority of animations mo-cap for Arma 3 (with Rocket pre-DayZ doing a third of the mo-cap).

As far as the mouse controls, from lead animator "Vespa": As for movement speeds of infantry in the ARMA 3 videos at E3: My still-favorite quote on the subject:

8lbsofanalsex
Jun 3, 2011


Another thing I'm excited about in this game is being able to attach satchel charges to vehicles. So I can finally bring my play style from battlefield over to arma.

Steeltalon
Feb 14, 2012

Perps were uncooperative.


8lbsofanalsex posted:

Another thing I'm excited about in this game is being able to attach satchel charges to vehicles. So I can finally bring my play style from battlefield over to arma.

With the magical ability of scripting, you could do this since arma 1.

dads_work_files
May 14, 2008

Cowabunga!


You could do it in OpFlash, even. It was in the FDF mod, I think.

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it

8lbsofanalsex posted:

Another thing I'm excited about in this game is being able to attach satchel charges to vehicles. So I can finally bring my play style from battlefield over to arma.

Jihad Jeeps anyone? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clDpZIaU3-Q

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008


Funny thing is, that metalcraze who was cited/called out by a dev? His favorite twitch shooter-to-mock-in-comparison-to-his-fantasy-idea-of-ARMA is BF3.

Seriously though Mederlock, how would you like me to go about posting more information from InstaGoat for use in the thread and in the OP?

8lbsofanalsex
Jun 3, 2011


Steeltalon posted:

With the magical ability of scripting, you could do this since arma 1.

I know, I just find it funny that it's gonna be in from the get go this time.

Tumble
Jun 24, 2003
I'm not thinking of anything!


gently caress the haters, I can't wait for some decent infantry combat finally. If you've ever shot guns before you will know that you can actually aim much, much faster than you could in Arma 2. This will be more realistic.

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it

Edit: ^^^ It's glad to see some people that aren't experiencing the Stockholm Effect (As Dslyecxi so aptly put it) that effects the milsim spergs who think bad or outdated mechanics are actually good because they simulate ~realism. It's kind of tiring reading their bleating on the BIS forums.

Chortles posted:

Funny thing is, that metalcraze who was cited/called out by a dev? His favorite twitch shooter-to-mock-in-comparison-to-his-fantasy-idea-of-ARMA is BF3.

Seriously though Mederlock, how would you like me to go about posting more information from InstaGoat for use in the thread and in the OP?

Just post it with links to the original source and choice awesome quotes like you've been doing and I'll integrate what I can as I notice it.

Mederlock fucked around with this message at Nov 20, 2012 around 03:16

ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

Tumble posted:

gently caress the haters, I can't wait for some decent infantry combat finally. If you've ever shot guns before you will know that you can actually aim much, much faster than you could in Arma 2. This will be more realistic.

Hell, you could watch a season of Top Shot and see as much. I'm happy for the change. I hope vehicle handling is way tighter too. I might also be in the minority, but I also prefer easier aircraft handling. Or at least give a setting for easy choppers. I'm talking Saints Row/Sim Copter easy. I'm horrible at flying. That's why I love IL2 so much. I can turn all the realistic features off and have a very gamey aerial combat game.

A Sloth
Aug 4, 2010
EVERY TIME I POST I AM REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE THAT I AM A SHITHEAD.

ASK ME MY EXPERT OPINION ON GENDER BASED INSULTS & "ENGLISH ETHNIC GROUPS".





This was my favourite thing to do in BF2... doing this in ArmA? Hell yes!

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it

ToastyPotato posted:

but I also prefer easier aircraft handling. Or at least give a setting for easy choppers. I'm talking Saints Row/Sim Copter easy. I'm horrible at flying. That's why I love IL2 so much. I can turn all the realistic features off and have a very gamey aerial combat game.

Sorry to be the bearer of news that'll be bad to you, but it's using Arma 2's control scheme for helicoptor's, with the more fluid flight model(Not the sim parts, it's just less janky)+6DOF with TrackIR that Take On:Helicoptors.

skooma512
Feb 8, 2012


ToastyPotato posted:

Any in depth info on the mission editor? Will it be easier than previous installments? Or do we still have to know scripting and crap?

Easier? It's already the easiest mission editor I've personally ever used. I was able to use it when I was 11 in the OFP days.

Squido
May 21, 2005
Ask me about being a paedophile.

Mederlock posted:

Sorry to be the bearer of news that'll be bad to you, but it's using Arma 2's control scheme for helicoptor's, with the more fluid flight model(Not the sim parts, it's just less janky)+6DOF with TrackIR that Take On:Helicoptors.

The question on all of our minds though is does the loving rudder work now? Man that was annoying.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Yup, that's a skjold all right.

Sniper Party posted:

Making the inventory system not offensively obtuse and having the soldiers be able to switch targets in less than an aeon won't turn the game into a fast-paced game with dudes headshotting foes while spinning in the air. It's not even a question of realism versus gameplay since the current lack of movement fluidity and aiming responsiveness makes urban warfare and CQC in particular almost impossible to perform realistically.

No, I agree with these changes.

I was just thinking changing how the player handles like a tank wouldn't be a very good idea. Inventory and target switching are things that were broken and definately qualifies as better choices to fix.

Just me misunderstanding what "improving controls" means, I guess.

hailthefish
Oct 24, 2010

lolwut


Mordaedil posted:

No, I agree with these changes.

I was just thinking changing how the player handles like a tank wouldn't be a very good idea. Inventory and target switching are things that were broken and definately qualifies as better choices to fix.

Just me misunderstanding what "improving controls" means, I guess.

Yes, moving like a fat man on a fast segway shooting a cannon attached to the handlebars by means of some sort of non-newtonian-fluid-filled hydraulics is totally optimal and realistic and should definitely not be changed.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Yup, that's a skjold all right.

hailthefish posted:

Yes, moving like a fat man on a fast segway shooting a cannon attached to the handlebars by means of some sort of non-newtonian-fluid-filled hydraulics is totally optimal and realistic and should definitely not be changed.

Why argue that point? I like it. You don't. If I'm in the minority, I don't mind, I just don't find a lot of other games even try that hard to maintain that soldiers are mortal and that combat is chaotic and you will most likely die because you can't move as fast or agile as you'd like if you were playing a video game.

Realism doesn't really come into it, because that's a pretty subjective and impossible-to-create goal for a game.

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008


To emphasize, reposting one of an Arma 3 lead animator's quotes from further up the page, about movement speeds relative to those of Arma 2:

Vespa posted:

Actually both running and sprinting in Arma3 are slower than in Arma2. Walk is about the same speed, and tactical pace is precisely inbetween walk and run.
All movement animations are mocap, just cleaned up, but not artificially stretched or sped up in any way.
I don't recall if weight/encumbrance actually affected stamina/movement speed at all in unmodded Arma 2.

Mordaedil posted:

soldiers are mortal and that combat is chaotic
I agree here...

Mordaedil posted:

and you will most likely die because you can't move as fast or agile as you'd like if you were playing a video game.
... and disagree here, since it is playing a video game, albeit one that happens to simulate bullet drop and encumbrance-as-stamina (as opposed to an arbitrary sprint duration as in usual shooters) instead of encumbrance-as-moving-clunky. Then again, I've tended to view the clunkiness as less stemming from realism/authenticity than from the engine's roots in pre-9/11 assumptions about infantry, albeit based on mid-1980s doctrines, all back before CQB was "a thing", and not in a way that reinforces "thinking tactically".

Mordaedil posted:

Realism doesn't really come into it, because that's a pretty subjective and impossible-to-create goal for a game.
For what it's worth, posters in this thread such as Mederlock seem to be all too used to seeing spergs with far less self-consciousness and recognition of subjectivity than you fortunately display here. (As the ACE thread OP puts it about its own topic, "generally populated with a bunch of sperging retards that like to pretend they're the real military").

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it

Yeah, Chortles hit the nail on the head for me. I'm pretty jaded about these sorts of things from reading three years of the really intense milsim guys who want to make things more 'realistic' or whatever through completely arbitrary ways on the BI forums, and it's just a reflex to snap at it, and though I disagree with you, your subjectivity and lack of overt about it is respected.

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008


FUN WITH ANIMATIONS

See 1:42 of the infantry animations/shooting video for a look at the new tactical pace after a second or two of the new "Arma run", plus 1:57 has shooting (both hipfire and ADS) while moving!

Mederlock posted:

Sorry to be the bearer of news that'll be bad to you, but it's using Arma 2's control scheme for helicoptor's, with the more fluid flight model(Not the sim parts, it's just less janky)+6DOF with TrackIR that Take On:Helicoptors.
Hey now, "less janky" is already an improvement over Arma 2's control scheme; for that matter whenever I was a helicopter pilot, I found that I tended to similar keybindings as BF3 helicopters anyway.

For more lulz (and BIS forums sperg rage)... Arma 3 has urban prone and Last Stand/Second Chance/Final Stand also demonstrated here by Ivan (rewind to 11:42 to see the whole of the drill)

And here's Rocket modeling some positions, including Last Stand, prone and urban prone with a sidearm.

Vespa posted:

And who's the lucky chap that gets to act out these animations for you?

Vespa:
There are two, actually! Most of animations were recorded by our animator Pawel "Smookie" Smolewski, who also happens to be a military enthusiast. It's an ideal combination, because acting for mocap requires experience from both fields. Not only you must move in proper military manner, you also need to respect a quite restrictive set of technical rules for in-game animations.

Our other man is Dean "Rocket" Hall, who works for BIS as a multiplayer designer, but is actually a serving member of New Zealand military. He recorded about a third of the moves, and provides his insight with other animations and features. Thanks to these guys, you can look for most authentic moves ever done in Arma series..
As far as the controls for this, which unfortunately the "controls" video frame doesn't show: Mederlock, let me be clear, Mordaedil is not here; he's got positive reasons for his preferences, which he recognizes to be not universal but rather subjective, and thus not making complaints like infantry now being "too smooth and responsive".

It doesn't help that, according to a previous Arma 2 thread (a post-DayZ thread in PGS for Arma 2?) ACE was originally more spergy and clunky/slow -- until the modders were rebutted by actual shooters or veterans who complained that the vaunted realism mod's infantry and small arms were unrealistically slow and clunky.

I think part of the reason I've been liking Arma 3 so much has been that (before the arrests) the devs seemed to be aware of and even poking fun or directly rebutting the spergs both on the threads and sometimes in the media videos...

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Yup, that's a skjold all right.

Glad you guys are being so nice about it, but I'm willing to see things from your perspective and certainly agree on several aspects.

I could perhaps suffer from a bit of nostalgia from the original Operation Flashpoint, though I sucked royally at that game, so maybe some changes are definately necessary to improve the experience.

The improved singleplayer experience certainly sounds enticing.

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008


Mordaedil posted:

Glad you guys are being so nice about it, but I'm willing to see things from your perspective and certainly agree on several aspects.
For me the argument (against what you believe Arma is "meant" to be) would be more difficult if VBS2 Personal Edition didn't exist.

Mordaedil posted:

I could perhaps suffer from a bit of nostalgia from the original Operation Flashpoint, though I sucked royally at that game, so maybe some changes are definately necessary to improve the experience.
From the mouths of the Arma 3 creative directors, "Rocket" (Hall) and Dyslecxi...

quote:

Actually, even with stepping up the process of playing the campaign, what you’ve seen today, it’s a productive idea… This new approach to campaign, it’s something fresh. It’ll be a pleasure. I’m really confident that the campaign can be interesting. But there will be some people, certainly, bitching about this… “It won’t be the traditional… Nothing beats old-time Flashpoint…” It’s bull*#&. Flashpoint is a terrible game. I’ve played it recently. I’m a bit sentimental about it…

Crowe: We need to quote that. Ivan Buchta: “Flashpoint is a terrible game!”

Buchta: But yeah, let’s face it, it’s a terrible game. Terribly inaccessible, hard, frustrating…


Hall: And people love it! I still get people saying, you know, when they found out I was working on Arma 3 multiplayer, friends of mine, one of my friends, he was like, are you going to make the campaign like Flashpoint? He’s like, seriously, I still play the campaign in Flashpoint…

Dslyecxi: They so over-romanticize it.

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it

Chortles posted:

Mederlock, let me be clear, Mordaedil is not here; he's got positive reasons for his preferences, which he recognizes to be not universal but rather subjective, and thus not making complaints like infantry now being "too smooth and responsive".

I said that he wasn't a sperg, that was kinda the whole point of my post

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Yup, that's a skjold all right.

It's all true though, they are terrible games, but I have an odd affection for that particular type of lack of polish.

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it

Mordaedil posted:

It's all true though, they are terrible games, but I have an odd affection for that particular type of lack of polish.

I totally understand that mentality, it's kinda like how a lot of indie games are a bit clumsy and lack a lot of polish, or those movies that are so bad they're good. I think the rose tinted glasses of the past might make OFP seem better then it was, as it does to most old games.

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008


Ivan Buchta and Martin Pezlar's plight has made it to the presidential level.

On pistols, from a "CQB?" thread: And from InstaGoat's initial report on the Gamescom build (boldface is mine): More reporting from InstaGoat to follow...

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011


Chortles posted:

For me the argument (against what you believe Arma is "meant" to be) would be more difficult if VBS2 Personal Edition didn't exist.
From the mouths of the Arma 3 creative directors, "Rocket" (Hall) and Dyslecxi...

quote:

Crowe: We need to quote that. Ivan Buchta: “Flashpoint is a terrible game!”

Buchta: But yeah, let’s face it, it’s a terrible game. Terribly inaccessible, hard, frustrating…

Hall: And people love it! I still get people saying, you know, when they found out I was working on Arma 3 multiplayer, friends of mine, one of my friends, he was like, are you going to make the campaign like Flashpoint? He’s like, seriously, I still play the campaign in Flashpoint…

Dslyecxi: They so over-romanticize it.


But they are wrong. It's not rose tinted glasses, it's that the Ofp campaign is worlds better than Arma 1 and Arma 2 campaign. It's much more longer, much more varied, with a more interesting plot and twists, more epic, and with memorable missions (who doesn't remember Montignac Must Fall, or the mission where you have to run away and use the night sky to orientate yourself, or the amphibious invasion mission).

A Sloth
Aug 4, 2010
EVERY TIME I POST I AM REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE THAT I AM A SHITHEAD.

ASK ME MY EXPERT OPINION ON GENDER BASED INSULTS & "ENGLISH ETHNIC GROUPS".




ArmA: Cold War Assault is just Flashpoint right? Nothing ruined or changed? It is on Steam for £2.09 and I'm tempted.

TomWaitsForNoMan
May 28, 2003

By Any Means Necessary


Turin Turambar posted:


But they are wrong. It's not rose tinted glasses, it's that the Ofp campaign is worlds better than Arma 1 and Arma 2 campaign. It's much more longer, much more varied, with a more interesting plot and twists, more epic, and with memorable missions (who doesn't remember Montignac Must Fall, or the mission where you have to run away and use the night sky to orientate yourself, or the amphibious invasion mission).

Agreed, I still remember it to this day. I'd love a new campaign along those lines

MrOnBicycle
Jan 18, 2008
Wait wat?

TomWaitsForNoMan posted:

Agreed, I still remember it to this day. I'd love a new campaign along those lines

Yup. Same here. I still have very fond memories of all the OFP campaigns. I played them again not that many years ago. I think resistance is my favourite one though.

The games themselves are clunky and not very polished. But they aren't bad. They were something new, and there were more limitations. They don't have that excuse anymore when doing ArmA3, so lets hope they pull it off.

MrOnBicycle fucked around with this message at Nov 22, 2012 around 13:27

numptyboy
Sep 6, 2004
somewhat pleasant

MrOnBicycle posted:

Yup. Same here. I still have very fond memories of all the OFP campaigns. I played them again not that many years ago. I think resistance is my favourite one though.

The games themselves are clunky and not very polished. But they aren't bad. They were something new, and there were more limitations. They don't have that excuse anymore when doing ArmA3, so lets hope they pull it off.

OFP was great for a game 10 years ago - having that much freedom to do things without hitting invisble walls was a such a great thing. Being able to fly helis, drive tanks, etc was justs the icing on a the cake. I hadn't played a game like it before.
I'm glad they are looking at improving the single player and the interactive issues the previous games had. I always felt like some kind of autistic savant playing those games. You could shoot ome poor schmuck at 500 meters right between the eyes, but when it came to navigating a door or try to interrupt loading your mag, no chance. That and the general Tresspasser feel needs to go.

GoldenNugget
Mar 27, 2008



A Sloth posted:

ArmA: Cold War Assault is just Flashpoint right? Nothing ruined or changed? It is on Steam for £2.09 and I'm tempted.

Yep it is. It's OFP and Resistance. Unsure if Red Hammer is included. Name changed because of licensing issues with Codemasters who have driving the name into the ground.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011


The difference, I think, between the original Flashpoint and their games now, it's the focus. I think the focus of Ofp was the single player experience/campaign (even if it had lots of extra functionality), while now the focus it's on making a "toolbox game" with editor, modules, custom content, multiplayer, etc, and the campaign is more a (relative) footnote.

They (or at least lots of their fans in the official forum) don't understand there are lots of people that don't want a freaking toolbox. They don't buy games to then make a game for themselves, they want an already done game. In fact sometimes they use it as an excuse to some of their game faults ("yes, it's true that OA campaign is short, but you can make your own missions with the editor!" "yes, we don't have feature x, but you can imitate it through scripting!") which is missing the point.

And while you can download user made missions to skip the "make it yourself", it's not exactly ideal, you have to search for it, sometimes with the addons requisites it's a pain in the rear end to run them, and more important, lots of user made missions just SUCK.

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it

Edit : the awful betamax app made my PS2 post appear here

Mederlock fucked around with this message at Nov 22, 2012 around 18:14

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008


Turin Turambar posted:

The difference, I think, between the original Flashpoint and their games now, it's the focus. I think the focus of Ofp was the single player experience/campaign (even if it had lots of extra functionality), while now the focus it's on making a "toolbox game" with editor, modules, custom content, multiplayer, etc, and the campaign is more a (relative) footnote.
In fairness, with plenty of twitch shooters the campaign is as much a footnote, but I believe that in the case of Arma this neglect has as much do with, as you cited, "lots of fans in the official forum", and the "modding has kept this game alive" argument ironically makes things worse, for what you described next, "modding/the toolbox is the excuse for negligence (however involuntary) and the lack of fan pressure to fix things". Can you say "echo chamber/bubble?"

Turin Turambar posted:

And while you can download user made missions to skip the "make it yourself", it's not exactly ideal, you have to search for it, sometimes with the addons requisites it's a pain in the rear end to run them, and more important, lots of user made missions just SUCK.
I remember this response to a DayZ hater complaining that he couldn't find non-DayZ servers: I didn't have the heart to explicitly tell him "it's the fault of everyone before Rocket whose ideas were even shittier or spergier than his, or just frankly too milsim". (I'm of the belief that the elephant in the room as far as the official forums is that "true milsim" always has a popularity ceiling.) Then just to wrap up the sadness of this guy's obsession:

him in PM posted:

Here's the thing, from 01' til 10' I ate, slept and breathed ofp/arma. There were always plenty of servers going, be it pvp or coop (wf came in late A1). Now that DayZ has taken over, the servers have dwindled down. Sure you may find one or 2. But it raped the population, by that I mean the actual arma population .

GoldenNugget posted:

Yep it is. It's OFP and Resistance. Unsure if Red Hammer is included. Name changed because of licensing issues with Codemasters who have driving the name into the ground.
From what I recall, for existing copies of the first OFP the v1.99 patch (the previous patch was v1.96 from 2006) does two things: rename the game from Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis to ARMA: Cold War Assault... and remove Red Hammer altogether

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LP97S
Apr 25, 2008


I'll just repost what I said about campaigns in the ArmA 2 thread:

LP97S posted:

Why the hell couldn't they just do another campaign like "1985 Cold War Crisis" from the original Operation Flashpoint. That had everything, from general battles, retreating, working with insurgents, spec ops, driving tanks, flying helicopters for transport, medevac, and attack, commanding infantry, commanding tanks, blowing up fuel depots, attacking Soviet territory with A-10's, getting shot down, escaping captivity and using the stars to navigation, and capturing the rogue Soviet general. That's a loving campaign.

I seriously don't get people who enjoy the ArmA campaigns, I can't even get through them half of the time because they're so drat clunky.

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