Search Amazon.com:
Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«7 »
  • Post
  • Reply
FIRE CURES BIGOTS
Aug 26, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


This comes from a discussion in the DnD pictures thread where I am tired of responding to things in picture form.

I was watching this movie the other day, http://disfiguredmovie.com/

Usually you talk about this on these forums and you get laughed out of here but I'll take a chance that we can have a grown up discussion about this.

The stigma against fat people is incredibly problematic, it involves issues of both women but also class as well. People of size are perceived as all manner of things that have nothing to do with their weight. Fat people are perceived as stupid, ugly, cruel, having poor hygiene, lacking in self-control, or being bad employees. Fat people are subjected to bullying, jokes, and discrimination. In movies and TV shows, fat people are comic relief. Homer Simpson is an idiot whose survival, let alone success in life is a baffling mystery. They are never seen as something desirable or heroic.

I would imagine that it is even worse if one is a woman. Women are constantly judged, no matter what their actual role is, what her job is, she is judged based on her looks. You could be the secretary of state and people will comment on your wrinkles as they would never do for a man in that position. I remember a thread in GBS from a couple years ago about a successful self-published author immediately turned towards goons angry that she was fat, as if that meant she didn't deserve to be successful and happy. At least fat men can get lead roles in the media, women are much more limited. It is also a class issue because the reason a lot of people are fat, is not just some moral or personal failing, if that were true, it could not simultaneously be an "epidemic." There are clearly social and environmental changes that are affecting the average weight. The fast food industry has conditioned us to need more food at the same time that our jobs, which are largely sedentary are demanding more and more of us for less pay, are not giving people much time for leisure, let alone exercise.

Fat people are said to be unhealthy as if this is an objective fact. While it is true that being fat is linked to certain illnesses it is also true that the idea of "healthy," both physical and mental is not an objective truth but rather a social construct. One can see in other time periods that being fat was perceived as healthy and a sign of membership in the upper class. Moreover, the stigma itself fuels actual eating disorders that are actually killing people. Shows about weight loss resemble tent revivals where people repent the sin of being the weight that they are. It leads to severe problems of self-esteem for fat people.

Stigma does not help people lose weight. What needs to change is that people need to accept that people can be healthy at any size. We need to stop making being fat a joke or being fat as being a failure as a person. We need to stop blaming the victim and look at the sociological and environmental factors that contribute to growing obesity without stigmatizing. The fat shamers are not talking about dieting or calling fat people they see "fat bitches" or "whale" or saying "man the harpoons" out of a desire to help, all it is is bullying.



Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Raneman
Dec 24, 2010

by T. Finninho


Being fat is completely under your control 99% of the time, the social stigma surrounding fat people is no different than the stigma surrounding those who let themselves go in other ways- such as smoking.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005



So how do we go about decoupling the public health issue of the extreme problem with obesity in America from the societal judgmental problem against overweight people?

Kuntsevo Kracker
Dec 6, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


iwc post

Wubbles
Oct 30, 2011


Oh, you know, just lobby Congress to reform the US education system.

Mr. Wynand
Nov 23, 2002

DLT 4EVA

Raneman posted:

Being fat is completely under your control 99% of the time, the social stigma surrounding fat people is no different than the stigma surrounding those who let themselves go in other ways- such as smoking.

The social stigma towards smokers is absolutely nothing like that towards fat people. I've been both at different times and it's not even close. poo poo, even these days, smoking is more likely to help your career and social standing then harm it.

Nor do just as unhealthy thin people who eat poo poo and have never seen a gym in their life get any poo poo at all as far as I can tell.

Raneman
Dec 24, 2010

by T. Finninho


Kuntsevo Kracker posted:

Same but being poor. Vote Ron Paul.


Nice to see another Paulite in these forums. Although I do think that being overweight is much more treatable than being poor.

FIRE CURES BIGOTS
Aug 26, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Raneman posted:

Being fat is completely under your control 99% of the time, the social stigma surrounding fat people is no different than the stigma surrounding those who let themselves go in other ways- such as smoking.

Then how can it also be an "epidemic." Either there changeable are societal factors that affect people's behavior or fat people are all lazy. If the later, then the growing amount of obesity is all a whole bunch of people, all of a sudden, through their own free will choosing to be fat. Are you suggesting that is what is happening?

itsgotmetoo
Oct 5, 2006

I know lots of things. People think I don't but I really do. I know more about us than any of us. That's just one of the things I know.


Dusseldorf posted:

So how do we go about decoupling the public health issue of the extreme problem with obesity in America from the societal judgmental problem against overweight people?

By focusing on the public health issue, and not shaming fat people for who they are. Nobody can become not fat overnight. What most people need when they are engaged in self-destructive behavior is understanding and support, not shame and ridicule.

Raneman
Dec 24, 2010

by T. Finninho


Lifestyles are increasingly sedentary, and it takes minimal effort to maintain one's weight. Most people do not care enough to try and manage such a thing though- it is very easy to just sit around and eat 500 calories more then you should. For some people that number is in the thousands.

Scrub-Niggurath
Nov 27, 2007



Fire posted:

Then how can it also be an "epidemic." Either there changeable are societal factors that affect people's behavior or fat people are all lazy. If the later, then the growing amount of obesity is all a whole bunch of people, all of a sudden, through their own free will choosing to be fat. Are you suggesting that is what is happening?

It's an epidemic because of the fact that we suddenly have all these conveniences that make just about everything require less effort and physical exertion. Hell, even seeing a movie 50 years ago was more healthy than it is today; you had to still go outside to get to your car.

Oakland Martini
Feb 14, 2008
Refugee from the great account hijacking of 2008

Fire posted:

What needs to change is that people need to accept that people can be healthy at any size.

This is obviously false.

Fat people cost society a ton of money, both in health care and in decreased productivity at work. They impose significant externalities on the rest of us. This isn't something we should just accept. I don't think think that making fun of obese people is helpful, and I'm all for positively, constructively encouraging obese people to lose weight. But you have to accept that it's bad to be fat, both for the individual and society. We should make more serious efforts at policy intervention to combat the obesity problem, not push the delusion that "people can be healthy at any size."

Raneman
Dec 24, 2010

by T. Finninho


itsgotmetoo posted:

Nobody can become not fat overnight.

I have dieted before when I was about 10 pounds overweight, after about 1.5 months all of my measurements- BMI, BF%, and all that were within acceptable ranges. I didn't really do much other than not eat chips and drink water instead of soda. I did some squats on and off too. It was extremely easy and I don't see why anyone else can't do it.

angerbot
Mar 23, 2004


plob


Speaking of lazy, this is a lazy thread even for you, Fire.

Goatse Master
Dec 2, 2011


Raneman posted:

Being fat is completely under your control 99% of the time, the social stigma surrounding fat people is no different than the stigma surrounding those who let themselves go in other ways- such as smoking.

This is just not true. If you live in a truly lovely area, filled with fast food joints, and have a low income, you are not going to have much choice. When grocery store shopping is a luxury and you have a poor diet, it's suddenly easy to become fat.

I mean, why do you think Samoans have such high obesity rates? Every single fat Samoan is not a lazy person who let himself go; the problem is in the food that is most available to them.

FIRE CURES BIGOTS
Aug 26, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


The bullying behavior is far more problematic than "public health." A fat person is not harming you or your health. People telling fat people that their presence disgusts them and insinuating they don't have a right to exist is a bigger problem. It is a far more easily controllable behavior.

Every picture thread: "MAN THE HARPOONS" every time a plus sized man or woman is posted.

Dilkington
Aug 6, 2010

"Al mio amore Dilkington, Gennaro"


Fire posted:

Fat people are said to be unhealthy as if this is an objective fact. While it is true that being fat is linked to certain illnesses it is also true that the idea of "healthy," both physical and mental is not an objective truth but rather a social construct. One can see in other time periods that being fat was perceived as healthy and a sign of membership in the upper class. Moreover, the stigma itself fuels actual eating disorders that are actually killing people. Shows about weight loss resemble tent revivals where people repent the sin of being the weight that they are. It leads to severe problems of self-esteem for fat people.

this is what i tell my doctors but they refuse to untie my restraints

FIRE CURES BIGOTS
Aug 26, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


angerbot posted:

Speaking of lazy, this is a lazy thread even for you, Fire.

My intention was to pull the fat chat out of the pictures thread by providing a spin off to discuss the issue. What would you have added to the OP?

Raneman
Dec 24, 2010

by T. Finninho


Goatse Master posted:

This is just not true. If you live in a truly lovely area, filled with fast food joints, and have a low income, you are not going to have much choice. When grocery store shopping is a luxury and you have a poor diet, it's suddenly easy to become fat.

I mean, why do you think Samoans have such high obesity rates? Every single fat Samoan is not a lazy person who let himself go; the problem is in the food that is most available to them.

I've noticed I spend much less on food when doing some weight management. Things like chicken breasts and produce are extremely inexpensive and easy to prepare. I live in extremely small midwestern town, and I can still think of several places I could walk, bike, or drive to for healthy food.

itsgotmetoo
Oct 5, 2006

I know lots of things. People think I don't but I really do. I know more about us than any of us. That's just one of the things I know.


Raneman posted:

I have dieted before when I was about 10 pounds overweight, after about 1.5 months all of my measurements- BMI, BF%, and all that were within acceptable ranges. I didn't really do much other than not eat chips and drink water instead of soda. I did some squats on and off too. It was extremely easy and I don't see why anyone else can't do it.

People who are 10 pounds overweight aren't really who I was thinking of.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005



Fire posted:

The bullying behavior is far more problematic than "public health." A fat person is not harming you or your health. People telling fat people that their presence disgusts them and insinuating they don't have a right to exist is a bigger problem. It is a far more easily controllable behavior.

Every picture thread: "MAN THE HARPOONS" every time a plus sized man or woman is posted.

Why is "public health" scare quoted? It's widely established that there are a large number of obesity related health problems. The (now scare quoted) "obesity epidemic" is most certainly a public health problem that can be dealt with in a number of non-judgemental ways.

Grandasaur Egg
Oct 14, 2005

GROOR

I'd like a clarifying post for why obesity is not, in fact, something that most people can control. After all, obesity rates are increasing extremely fast, indicating that it used to be something that was, in fact, under control. People are not magically inheriting fat-no-matter-what genes in the past century -- it's just that people are eating less healthy and are being more sedentary.

I am sympathetic to the argument that poor people have it harder in terms of eating a healthy diet, because it is more expensive. But, the fact is that the obesity epidemic is affecting every class in the United States. It's a cause for concern. It's definitely not a cause for implying that fat people are beautiful in their own way. It's unhealthy. It's expensive. They'll die sooner.

This does not mean that we should mock them or call them ugly. But from the perspective of health, we should definitely not be lying to ourselves or them to make them feel better about their weight. It's uncomfortable to do, but you know, it's also not easy to tell your alcoholic family members that they should drink less.

Raneman
Dec 24, 2010

by T. Finninho


itsgotmetoo posted:

People who are 10 pounds overweight aren't really what I was thinking of.

Just as one cannot lose weight instantly, one does not gain weight instantly either. You gradually gain weight over a period of years, and if you don't notice what you're doing by the time you're about 20 or 30 pounds in, let alone 100, then you really have no self-control.

itsgotmetoo
Oct 5, 2006

I know lots of things. People think I don't but I really do. I know more about us than any of us. That's just one of the things I know.


Raneman posted:

Just as one cannot lose weight instantly, one does not gain weight instantly either. You gradually gain weight over a period of years, and if you don't notice what you're doing by the time you're about 20 or 30 pounds in, let alone 100, then you really have no self-control.

Do people with poor self-control not deserve sympathy, or basic consideration for their feelings?

edit: For clarification, I'm not arguing that obesity isn't a problem, or that fat people should be accepted for who they are. I am only arguing that shaming, judging, and malicious joking are counter-productive to getting most people to become healthier. It doesn't really serve to fix the problem.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007


Don't ever count out Touchdown Tom.



I'm not sure why this poster thought it would be a good idea to define moderation as a cupcake in each hand.

buttcoin smuggler
Jun 24, 2011


Fire posted:

Fat people are said to be unhealthy as if this is an objective fact. While it is true that being fat is linked to certain illnesses it is also true that the idea of "healthy," both physical and mental is not an objective truth but rather a social construct. One can see in other time periods that being fat was perceived as healthy and a sign of membership in the upper class. Moreover, the stigma itself fuels actual eating disorders that are actually killing people. Shows about weight loss resemble tent revivals where people repent the sin of being the weight that they are. It leads to severe problems of self-esteem for fat people.

I'm on board with not being an rear end in a top hat to people for being fat. However, being "healthy" is not a social construct. If you're obese, you stand a much greater chance of premature death and debility disease. Just because there were times that people mistakenly thought being fat was healthy does not make it so.

One can not want to shame fat people but still want them to get healthier. And in most cases, eating healthier and exercising means weight loss.

Your post is made much, much weaker by slipping in this obviously false point, Fire.

Scrub-Niggurath
Nov 27, 2007



itsgotmetoo posted:

Do people with poor self-control not deserve sympathy, or basic consideration for their feelings?

Of course they do, which is why most people are advocating for constructive and non-judgmental ways to combat obesity, rather than Fire's acceptance of "health at any weight".

Kuntsevo Kracker
Dec 6, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


iwc post

Raneman
Dec 24, 2010

by T. Finninho


itsgotmetoo posted:

Do people with poor self-control not deserve sympathy, or basic consideration for their feelings?

Low self-control is a personality flaw that is not admirable. Obesity is harmful to both yourself and society as a whole, and the individuals need to be helped in that area. What they don't need is society lying to them and telling them they are perfectly healthy while their bones are collapsing in on themselves and their heart is in constant danger at any given moment.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005



For analogy -- not saying that obesity is the same as AIDS -- but most of the public health issues related to the AIDS epidemic don't start by admonishing people for sharing needles or having unprotected sex, although the programs focus on clean needle and condom usage.

Kuntsevo Kracker
Dec 6, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


iwc post

buttcoin smuggler
Jun 24, 2011


Regarding "health at any size:" Is it possible for, say, a 5'5'' adult man to be healthy at 600 pounds? If yes, could you give an example? Any healthy person in the ballpark of those measurements will do.

itsgotmetoo
Oct 5, 2006

I know lots of things. People think I don't but I really do. I know more about us than any of us. That's just one of the things I know.


Raneman posted:

Low self-control is a personality flaw that is not admirable. Obesity is harmful to both yourself and society as a whole, and the individuals need to be helped in that area. What they don't need is society lying to them and telling them they are perfectly healthy while their bones are collapsing in on themselves and their heart is in constant danger at any given moment.

Agreed on all points, I just think that being openly hostile to fat people is counter-productive. And shaming and ridiculing fat people isn't an uncommon or unacceptable practice on these forums.

angerbot
Mar 23, 2004


plob


Fire posted:

My intention was to pull the fat chat out of the pictures thread by providing a spin off to discuss the issue. What would you have added to the OP?

A better poster.

Raneman
Dec 24, 2010

by T. Finninho


So what do you suggest we do to stop this epidemic? Acceptance will not work, and will harm society much more than any alternatives. Losing weight is trivially easy, a 1400-1800 calorie diet will work for most every body type and is easy to manage provided you do not act on impulses. Most people are well within the means to be at a healthy weight, but they are not.

buttcoin smuggler
Jun 24, 2011


Kuntsevo Kracker posted:

I hate this sort of Neo-Victorian social engineering.

Why? Do you also find seatbelt laws and the prohibition of heroin objectionable?

(Assume for the sake of the argument that heroin is decriminalized -- it's prohibited, but users are sent to treatment centers, not prisons. Don't confuse the drug war being a bad idea with hard drugs being prohibited being a bad idea, because it's not.)

Grandasaur Egg
Oct 14, 2005

GROOR

Kuntsevo Kracker posted:

Iím just not sure why so many busybodies feel itís their place to comment on the ďfailingsĒ of other people, itís really strange and strikes me as being the result of some insecurity in their own life.

Life would be better if more people were honest to the people they care about. My dad is very fat and I tell him to eat healthy and exercise all the time (although it isn't easy). As my father, he comments on the actions in my life that decrease my quality of life. How is this supposed to be a bad thing, lol.

Kuntsevo Kracker
Dec 6, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


iwc post

Xibanya
Sep 16, 2012



I tutor third graders at two title one elementary school in Austin, Texas. These are the most impoverished 8-to-9-year-olds in the city. I would estimate that about 80% of them are overweight. This is clearly not an issue of choice for these children, and unfortunately, a fat child will nearly always become a fat adult, at which time the weight becomes even more difficult to shed.

I myself was an obese child from at least five years of age onward. I've lost 60 pounds in the last few years and now almost appear to be a normal person. However, the effect of carrying that weight throughout my formative years is that in order to maintain a slightly over-ideal weight, I basically have to stay hungry at all times. It's more than a matter of low self-control. I've read articles on this in the New York Times and the like - a formerly fat person must consume 200-300 calories less than a never-fat person for the rest of their life just to maintain their current weight. I wish that everyone could abandon the idea that overweight people are morally deficient because it's clearly not true.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Kuntsevo Kracker
Dec 6, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


iwc post

  • Post
  • Reply
«7 »