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The arguments about what is or isn't 'correct' in GSDs always baffle me because GSDs have had such a diverse array of roles throughout their history. Concepts such as 'preservationist breeding' fall down for me with breeds like GSDs, because they have evolved to fill so many different niches over the last century+. Is the 'real' German Shepherd a herder or a police dog? A Schutzhund champion, a seeing eye dog or a Westminster BIS? It all depends on your perspective, and I'm not sure that there's a 'right' answer.
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Dec 18, 2012 23:36
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 20:34 |
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Hang on, did I participate in eugenics because I spayed my Cardigan Welsh Corgi according to contract because her head is predominantly white, against breed standard?
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Dec 18, 2012 23:43
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You are literally a nazi
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Dec 18, 2012 23:49
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Mods please change thread name to "Landsharks in Jackboots", tia.notsowelp posted:The arguments about what is or isn't 'correct' in GSDs always baffle me because GSDs have had such a diverse array of roles throughout their history. Concepts such as 'preservationist breeding' fall down for me with breeds like GSDs, because they have evolved to fill so many different niches over the last century+. Is the 'real' German Shepherd a herder or a police dog? A Schutzhund champion, a seeing eye dog or a Westminster BIS? It all depends on your perspective, and I'm not sure that there's a 'right' answer. The way I look at it is that the "correct" GSD (as a general concept, not as an individual dog) should be able to fulfill all these roles and do them well. They're exactly that: a multipurpose working breed and both structure and temperment should reflect that. I think you've hit it on the nose though, you can't necessarily hold up individual dogs as the "most correct" due to their function because they've been bred to fulfil such a diverse set of jobs. For me, the most correct GSD has more to do with temperment, nerve, and structural soundess rather than "precisely what job does this dog do?", though each individual should be able to do well in one of it's working functions. If you look at most of the jobs GSDs are supposed to do (SAR dogs, police dogs, Schutzhund, war dogs, etc) there's a definite commonality in the physical and tempermental traits required of them. My exclusion here of course would be "Westminister BIS" because goddamn, gently caress like 99% of GSD show breeders. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 23:58
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Triangulum posted:Of the breeds you listed only two are straight up herding dogs, one of which does not accept solid white dogs (Old English Sheepdog). Livestock guardian dogs are not the same thing as herding dogs. All examples given are used to herd livestock aside from the two guardian dog examples and I made the distinction between livestock guardian dogs and herders in my post - hence the two examples. Some dogs are used in both roles and I don't really care if you use a more narrowly defined definition, because it isn;t at all relevant to the topic. "Solid white" Old English Sheepdogs may not be accepted but they come awfully close, which is why I called it a "probably counts" on this topic and I'm sure if you really want to look you can find other herding breeds that are acceptable with solid white coats - such as the original GSDs. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 00:41
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Warbadger posted:All examples given are used to herd livestock aside from the two guardian dog examples and I made the distinction between livestock guardian dogs and herders in my post - hence the two examples. Some dogs are used in both roles and I don't really care if you use a more narrowly defined definition, because it isn;t at all relevant to the topic. "Solid white" Old English Sheepdogs may not be accepted but they come awfully close, which is why I called it a "probably counts" on this topic and I'm sure if you really want to look you can find other herding breeds that are acceptable with solid white coats. This is the GSD thread and nothing in this post is about GSDs  You edited in one comment about GSDs, haha.Maybe you could post something interesting and useful about GSDs? Do you have a GSD? I would love to see pictures because they are cool dogs and pretty much all you've posted is about eugenics and white dogs and Nazis.
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Dec 19, 2012 00:46
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 Alice is rather skeptical of this thread.  And Shelby is...well, distracted by a shiny ball.
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Dec 19, 2012 03:47
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There's nothing better than watching someone Godwin in a dog thread. Only reason I didn't ban him is that he might make me laugh a couple more times before it comes to that.
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Dec 19, 2012 04:59
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Stregone posted:
Please tell me that's the only face Alice makes. She looks like the most judgemental dog in the universe  Is Shelby a mix? His face almost looks like a Mal rather than a GSD. He's cute as poo poo either way.
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Dec 19, 2012 15:50
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I don't know how I didn't see this thread until now but thank you so much for making it Triangulum! That first post is incredibly interesting. Allow me to contribute by adding a picture of one of the worlds worst GSDs  (kidding I love MoMo) Queen Elizatits fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 17:32
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Please mail me MoMo, I need him. He can come be buddies with Vecna and they can ruin my life together. Vecna's big dumb nose had a growth spurt and now he looks retarded. I was looking over the bitches Wildhaus is considering breeding down the line and man, Maika is a nice looking puppy.   Triangulum fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 22:46
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Triangulum posted:Please mail me MoMo, I need him. He can come be buddies with Vecna and they can ruin my life together. They would be best friends and they would love it I remember when Mo's nose went through that growth spurt too, I think it was around five months or so.I was just reading through the thread and I know this is from way back on the first page but I have always thought MoMo and Maggie were not a bad example of the difference between a masculine and feminine looking GSD. I could be totally wrong of course but to me Maggie is very delicate looking dog and Mo is blocky. I just really wanted to post another picture though 
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Dec 20, 2012 01:02
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Triangulum posted:Is Shelby a mix? His face almost looks like a Mal rather than a GSD. I think it's the white and that the dog is squinting. I see what look like pure white GSDs end up in husky rescue all the time as mixes because they wind up looking so similar in their faces. Triangulum posted:I was looking over the bitches Wildhaus is considering breeding down the line and man, Maika is a nice looking puppy. Sable dogs are so pretty. I'm curious to see how her and her sister grow up, they're at the height of their puppy awkwardness in their pictures.I was going back and fawning over Heidi some more, and I realized of all the puppies they kept, they haven't held any back from Eris. Granted, they'd only bred her twice, but I just thought it was interesting. It's also a shame that their girl Jazz that they imported wound up with health problems, she seemed like she had a lot of working potential, and she's so pretty.  They've been killing me not posting their next breeding plans, btw.  They've had the same message up since the summer, and obviously it won't be a fall breeding, fall is over. I'm dying to see who they pick, I love following puppies like that. I'm also curious how a litter this winter/spring will affect them breeding this time next year, that's when we might be in the puppy market...   Edit: Also, when they don't post anything, I get constantly tempted by this.
WolfensteinBag fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 20, 2012 13:02
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Triangulum posted:Please tell me that's the only face Alice makes. She looks like the most judgemental dog in the universe Alice makes all sorts of faces.  Alice by Michael Appleman, on Flickr We're pretty sure Shelby is a GSD/Mal mix. She was a stray puppy so we are not sure. She started off almost completely black, and looked alot like your usual black and tan/red GSD puppy as she got older. Once she matured she turned out to be a very light red sable. She's right around 60 pounds. Alice is about 45, and a huge lap dog. Some pics from our hike yesterday.   
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Dec 21, 2012 01:36
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Please ship Alice and Shelby to me asap, tia
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Dec 21, 2012 02:40
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This is my German Sheppard/Lab mix named Lucy. Her hobbies include chewing up every goddamned thing in the house.  There's not a whole lot of sheppard in her except in her facial markings.
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Dec 21, 2012 04:10
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Thread needs fewer Nazis and more landsharks. Here's a great, appropriate photo (not my photo, not my landshark) As a kid, my family raised a sable long-haired GSD from Bavarian working stock, bred in America. Her coat was fairly close to the above dog, which meant 99% of people had zero idea what she was. We got a ton of people coming up and asking if she was a wolf, or telling their kids it was a hyena, all kinds of absolutely crazy stuff. She also had a much squarer butt (technical term obv), like this guy from the OP Triangulum posted:
RIP world's best, smartest, prettiest hyena
Anne Whateley fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Dec 21, 2012 |
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Dec 21, 2012 05:30
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i like nice words
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It seems like tons of good German dogs come from Bavaria, especially east Bavaria. We looked at a lot of breeders down there when we were looking to get a dog but having to drive 6+ hours to check out the parents and breeding facilities would have been almost impossible for us to do. It never ceases to amaze me how confused people are by GSDs who aren't B&T stock coats. I get asked if Vecna is a lab mix or a Belgian Shepherd at least once a week  Stregone posted:Alice makes all sorts of faces. Hahaha holy poo poo, Alice is the best. Does anyone do Schutzhund with their dogs? I'd like to get into it but there don't seem to be any groups in my city and of course I worry a bit about the training methods used. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Dec 21, 2012 |
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Dec 21, 2012 13:06
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My mom grew up with GSDs and has bazillions of stories about her GSDs and I have always wanted one because of those stories but I don't think I will ever have one because I can't handle tons of dog hair on everything. Alas, I like this thread bc I get to look at pretty doggies
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Dec 21, 2012 15:00
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Superconsndar posted:I like this thread bc I get to look at pretty doggies Just 4 you~  
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Dec 21, 2012 15:08
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I didn't know people were crossing GSDs with turtles these days~
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Dec 21, 2012 15:16
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wanna see that suspension trot
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Dec 21, 2012 15:21
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I cannot fathom people who look at that and think, "Yes, that is a structurally sound, good-looking dog." I just can't.
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Dec 21, 2012 15:21
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Kinda late, but Yay GSD thread. I have a one of these monster and it is weirdest dog experience I've ever had. I wish someone would have told me I was getting a dog that could carry it's own weight in emotional baggage. (Also, oh god the noises.) Living with Maverick is like living with a three year old that is constantly on verge of having either the best or worst day of her life. Oh you decided to have people spend the week in MY house, well how about I bark at them whenever they move because clearly you're not doing anything about getting them the gently caress out of here. Oh you came home and I got to chase a stray cat out of the yard, BEST loving DOG DAY EVER! Here have some pictures of not a triangle. Hey I noticed you're typing things on the internet and not directly interacting with me in any way, shape, or form.  Okay no seriously you've been up for more than an hour and I have not received one tummy rub. Don't make get whiny up in this bitch.  Not pictured: earsplitting yipes of displeasure when I decided to only give a moderate amount of belly rubs.
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Dec 21, 2012 15:56
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quote:Fiona is also a really big fan of relaxing in ridiculous positions.     Bonus normal dog shot: 
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Dec 21, 2012 17:07
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notsowelp posted:Just 4 you~ That poor dog that is awful Is that from a show?GSD experience in gif form. 15 hours a day inside and outside 
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Dec 21, 2012 17:36
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your dogs are the best dogs I love how naughty MoMo is (because I don't have to deal with it)DenialTwist posted:Kinda late, but Yay GSD thread. I have a one of these monster and it is weirdest dog experience I've ever had. I wish someone would have told me I was getting a dog that could carry it's own weight in emotional baggage. (Also, oh god the noises.) Living with Maverick is like living with a three year old that is constantly on verge of having either the best or worst day of her life. Oh you decided to have people spend the week in MY house, well how about I bark at them whenever they move because clearly you're not doing anything about getting them the gently caress out of here. Oh you came home and I got to chase a stray cat out of the yard, BEST loving DOG DAY EVER! Literally nothing can prepare you for the noises a GSD makes  I've never heard another dog make such an ungodly, horrible racket. He either sounds like a hyena or a dying ghost most of the time. And yeah, you basically described Vecna. Every day is either The Best Thing Ever or HELP MY WOLRD IS COLLAPSING IN ON ITSELF. About a month ago my mom came to visit and we had to rearrange a bunch of furniture to fit a matress for her. He spend about 2 days just furiously angry at everything in the world because you moved My Chair and there is this PERSON here and she's in My Spot how could you allow this  . He spent the remainder of her visit incessantly harassing her trying to get her to play with him, which I found kinda adorable but she found really intimidating.Getting my family to understand him is going to be... interesting. I'm the only person in my family who doesn't own some sort of doodle and holy poo poo, those dogs could not possibly be more different. My mom kept freaking out when he was barking and jumping around and mouthing me because she thought he was attacking me. (The obnoxious mouthing is mostly under control now, he just kinda bumps his jaws against me when he's excited rather than chomping down and giving me horrible bruises) I'm pretty sure my extended family is going to think he's aggressive because he likes to yell at poo poo when he's happy and loves to tug and being a Crazy Dog. Sorry guys, real dogs like to Do A Thing 
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Dec 21, 2012 21:21
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I actually didn't know German shepherds had a reputation for vocalizing. Now I wonder if our dog's organization bred against it, since her littermates didn't do that either. Ours would bark when she was excited, and she would whine when she wanted something or when she was worried, but she was good about stopping at least the I-want-it whining on command. She definitely didn't wander around making sounds at everything like a cat might. Is that normal? For bonus content, here's a cool Smart Dog story. When she had to go out and the weather was bad, we would put her on a long retractable leash and let her go while we stood on the covered porch. Like any self-respecting dog, she had to explore every foot of yard and woods to find the perfect pee spot, and in the process she would loop her leash all around the trees. Then she would figure it out and untangle herself from all the trees. And come back and shake all over you, naturally. I think we really got spoiled. I was dogsitting some neighbors' golden retriever awhile back, and I couldn't believe anyone could actually live with such a dumb -- totally sweet, but two-brain-celled -- dog. v Take some more videos, wanna hear dat yowling
Anne Whateley fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Dec 22, 2012 |
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Dec 21, 2012 22:20
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Anne Whateley posted:Is that normal? It's not necessarily abnormal, but yeah most GSDs are pretty huge blabbermouths. Vecna will shut up if I tell him to knock it off but I only do that for things like barking at birds outside the window or screaming about the postman bringing him a new present. I find his horrific yowling kind of endearing So guys. In the last 3 months, my puppy has gone from this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1U8TRCs6k0 (oh my god my clicker timing is so bad this was our first week together, i'm a lot better now I swear)to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeSMCeqzCgo Where the gently caress did my little puppy go??? I'm sorry about the poo poo lighting and shaky camera. I only have my iPhone at the moment and well... this is winter in Germany. We have about 6 hours of daylight right now. It's hard to get a well lit video. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Dec 21, 2012 |
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Dec 21, 2012 22:53
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Shelby, when excited makes a high pitch yipping, yapping, whining hyena sound. Petite little Alice has has a deep guttural bark of a dog 10 times her size.
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Dec 22, 2012 03:40
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Before I got my GSD, I didn't know they were so...talkative, either. But ever since I got her, it's been a constant stream of WHIIINEE YIP WHINE. I thought something was wrong with her for a long time because she always WHINES when anything happens. Oh you're home!? Whine. You have a ball? WHINE. Car ride, treat, see a squirrel in the yard? You're looking at me? Whiiiine. And I just recently learned it was GSD thing. This noisy bitch. DenialTwist posted:Okay no seriously you've been up for more than an hour and I have not received one tummy rub. Don't make get whiny up in this bitch. This is my dog every morning.
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Dec 22, 2012 07:43
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I don't know if anyone's interested, but I found a site that focuses on clicker training for Schutzhund. This is their YouTube channel. Also I found an awesome video of a 7 year old handler in the 2010 Working Dog Championships. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=?Sn3VghnNEpc
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Dec 24, 2012 16:57
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I'm personally really interested in how dogs who are clicker trained do at Schutzhund compared to ones trained the traditional ways, so I love that sorta stuff. Although looking at the website I see they're fans of prong and shock collars, so I get the feeling the clicker training doesn't play a huge role.
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Dec 24, 2012 18:49
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Schutzhund does seen to have a macho punishment thing going on.
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Dec 24, 2012 19:09
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Skizzles posted:I'm personally really interested in how dogs who are clicker trained do at Schutzhund compared to ones trained the traditional ways, so I love that sorta stuff. I think Denise Fenzi does some sort of protection sport training, and she does it mostly through R+ and P-. My understanding is that in general dogs who are clicker trained to do the sport are a little flat and lackluster compared to those who are trained more traditionally. Filboid Studge posted:Schutzhund does seen to have a macho punishment thing going on. It's not really a macho thing. It's that the dogs who participate find nothing in the world more reinforcing than biting and tugging on that sleeve. How are you going to get a dog who will out a sleeve reliably if there's nothing more in the world he wants? You're either a) going to have to utilize punishment or b) you're going to have to make a dog who likes other reinforcement better. I think the reason a lot of the clicker trained Sch dogs are flat is because they're working for reinforcement but may not find the work itself reinforcing. a life less fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 24, 2012 |
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Dec 24, 2012 20:52
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Yeah they are balance trainers, but the instruction stuff on their website is all clicker training. Pure clicker training in Schutzhund is really, really uncommon though I have seen a few people who clicker train the protection phase, and R+ is usually used for the tracking phase. There does seem to be some movement in protection, police, and military work to start moving towards positive training methods though, especially since the military has found that some complex behaviors can't be trained via traditional methods. I'd be curious to see how R+/P- dogs do in protection sports but honestly I don't know of any trainers who purely use it. I think it's kind of ridiculous to call the training method "macho" though because it's really not about that. In other news, Vecna got some Christmas presents today    He hates his bow E: I got some cool dog books from my husband for Christmas! He knows me so well  Triangulum fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Dec 25, 2012 |
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Dec 24, 2012 21:41
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I don't mean to knock the entire community, but a lot of the police, prison and (decreasingly) army handlers- who are the only bunch I've personally met- are very macho, and are very keen on severe P+ training. I'm sure there are a whole load of people to contradict those experiences, though 
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Dec 25, 2012 19:41
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I think comparing police and miltary handlers to sport handlers is misleading, even if there is a lot of crossover between the groups. I think it's kind of understandable that police and military handlers are so gung-ho about harsh corrections because their dogs need to be bomb proof and if those dogs gently caress up, people get hurt. Schutzhund is a protection sport but it's still a sport, even if lots of police handlers are into it. There actually was a pretty cool article on Sophia Yin's website about a slight move towards R+ based training in the military because they've found some behaviors flat out cannot be taught via force based training. You can read it here. Honestly though, I'd be surprised if the military and police force ever move completely away from compulsion-based training. I'm about halfway through the Schutzhund book I got for Xmas (Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods) and I'm really surprised how little force the authors advocate, which is a pleasent surprise. Honestly beyond basic "how do I train dog" books, it's been one of the most useful training books I've ever read. As Vecna gets older I've noticed that while he'll work for food with no problem, he doesn't have the attentiveness, enthusiasm, and drive I'd like to see out of him. But he thinks I have a rubber ball in my pocket he will literally throw himself into downs and sits and he'll ignore any distraction we've encountered so far (even people food, other dogs, and chasing small animals). The thing I really dig about this book is that they start out training the behaviors with food and once the dog understands them, they move on to a ball reward. I know it sounds kind of stupid but I've had a hard time figuring out how to transition from food to toy rewards in a lot of situations and it's outlined so clearly and precisely here. Just as a random example: His recall used to to be really excellent but recently he's taken up the obnoxious habit of coming slowly and sometimes sniffing around before coming. He does this even if I run away from him and start making stupid noises and use the highest food reward possible. We've been practicing a restrained recall using fetch as a reward and the difference between his recalls is astounding. Same thing with using a ball reward for a sit/stay and down/stay. The only issue I've really run into with the ball reward so far is that he gets really resource guard-y around other dogs if it's on the ground and putting it away doesn't work. If the ball's on the ground he'll chase other dogs off of it and if I put it in my pocket or in a bag, he knows I have it so he'll chase off any dog that comes up to say 'hi'. If a dog steals his ball or he can carry it around in his mouth, he's pretty much fine but it's a little stressful to deal with.
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Dec 25, 2012 21:52
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Triangulum posted:I think it's kind of understandable that police and military handlers are so gung-ho about harsh corrections because their dogs need to be bomb proof and if those dogs gently caress up, people get hurt.
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Dec 25, 2012 22:02
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 I live on a military base and my neighbor is a military police dog handler. That man is an absolute sweetheart with dogs and these assumptions make me sad.
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Dec 26, 2012 02:45
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