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Welcome to the German Shepherd Dog thread! “Utility and Intelligence” : The History of the German Shepherd Dog  Horand, the first GSD Prior to the late 1800s any sheep herding dog in Germany was referred to as a “German shepherd”. These dogs became the foundation for what we now know as the German Shepherd Dog and today are called Altdeutsche Schäferhunde (Old German Shepherd Dogs). In 1898 Captain Max Von Stephanitz purchased a dog he named Horand von Grafrath from a dog show in Karlsruhe. Horand possessed all the traits Stephanitz believed were necessary for a working dog: intelligence, strength, mental stability, versatility, and strong scenting ability. Stephanitz founded the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (Society for the German Shepherd Dog), also known as the SV, and Horand was the first German Shepherd Dog registered. The breed standard was created in 1899 and that same year the first GSD show was held. Horand became the cornerstone to the SV’s breeding program and his offspring were heavily linebred to standardize the appearance and temperament of the stock. This inevitably caused undesirable recessive traits to appear in the GSD so the SV began outcrossing them with other herding dogs and on very rare occasions, wolves. By 1913 the GSD had reached America and the German Shepherd Club of America was founded. Soon after the UK Kennel Club began to accept registrations for GSDs. The rise in suspicion towards the Germans prior to WWI proved to be a bit of an image problem for the GSD in the US and Britain. The GSD Club of America decided to change its name to Shepherd Club while the UKC went a step further and changed the breed’s name to the Alsatian, a name which remained up until 1977. Following WWI the popularity of the GSD increased drastically due to its use as a war dog by the German army and dog actors such as Rin Tin Tin and Strongheart only served to increase this. However poor breeding stock devastated the American GSD lines causing the dogs to fall out of fashion. In 1922 Germany introduced a breed survey to determine which dogs were appropriate for breeding in order to combat the problems seen in American lines. This system is still in place in Germany but unfortunately never took off in the United States. During World War II the GSD was a popular war dog among both Axis and Allied forces due to its versatility and intelligence. The breed was highly regarded by the Nazi Party and as a result the Nazis began to interfere with the SV, eventually forcing Stephanitz out altogether. The Nazis banned white GSDs from the show ring due the mistaken belief that they diluted coat color and were responsible for many of the genetic defects (Americans followed suit sometime in the 1950s). The end of WWII began divergence of the American and German lines we see today. Much of the German stock had been killed in during the war and the remaining dogs were outcrossed in an attempt to preserve the breed before it disappeared entirely. German lines eventually recovered around 1945. This period also marked when American lines began being bred for appearance rather than utility, particularly a sloped topline and increased rear angulation. Appearance: quote:The first impression of a good German Shepherd Dog is that of a strong, agile, well muscled animal, alert and full of life. It is well balanced, with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter. The dog is longer than tall, deep-bodied, and presents an outline of smooth curves rather than angles. It looks substantial and not spindly, giving the impression, both at rest and in motion, of muscular fitness and nimbleness without any look of clumsiness or soft living. The ideal dog is stamped with a look of quality and nobility--difficult to define, but unmistakable when present. Secondary sex characteristics are strongly marked, and every animal gives a definite impression of masculinity or femininity, according to its sex. The head is strong and chiseled with a strong wedge-shaped muzzle and dark brown almond eyes. The back should be straight without roach or sag and fairly short, with the ideal proportion of body length to height being 10 to 8½. The hindquarters are muscled, strong, and well articulated. The German Shepherd is a trotting dog and its structure should reflect this. The back should not sag or roll while in a trot and must remain level. The stride should be powerful and effortless.  correct topline  extreme rear angulation German Shepherds have a double coat with a coarse, dense guard hairs and a soft wooly undercoat. Both long and short haired varieties are permissible but short coats (also known as stock coats) are by far the most common. GSDs vary in color, the most common being black and tan or black and red. Sable, all black, all white, liver, and blue are also present in GSDs though blue and liver are serious faults and white is a disqualifying fault.  black and tan long coated GSD  sable stock coated GSD Temperament: quote:The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.
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Dec 10, 2012 03:08
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Show lines, working lines, and the changing interpretation of the breed standard: There have been a lot of words written about this by much more knowlegable people than me so I’m just going to refer you to this article about the difference between show and working lines and this visual guide to changes in German and American show dogs over the years.  Odin vom Stolzenfels, 1933 Sieger Winner  Vegas du Haut Mansard, 2009 Sieger winner Health and Grooming: GSDs unfortunately suffer from a myriad of health problems due to the prevalence of BYB and milled dogs, the terrible misinterpretation of the breed standard by show breeders, and extensive line breeding in its early history. Hip and elbow dysplasia, degenerative myelopathy, Von Willebrand Disease, digestive problems, bloat, and arthritis are common in the breed. Grooming a GSD is fairly simple but be warned, they don’t call them German Shedders for nothing. Being a double coated breed they will blow their coat about twice a year and the outer guard hairs shed year round. Brushing every few days will help reduce the amount of hair coating your home and keep your dog looking nice (long-coated GSDs should be brushed every day). I personally use a flea comb to get rid of the undercoat and a Kong Zoom Groom for the guard hairs. Flea combs work really nicely because the loose hair gets stuck in the comb rather than flying everywhere so cleanup is a lot easier. They don’t really need to be bathed more than a couple times a year unless they get into something gross and overbathing can make them very dry and itchy. Nail trimming can be a bit tricky as their nails are black and very thick so if you’re having trouble consider using a dremel. They’re often are a bit prissy about having their feet handled so make sure to work on desensitizing them to it right off the bat. I’ve found nail care to be easiest if done after a long day at the park. I wait until my dog is about to pass out and clip his nails and he totally ignores me. Living with GSDs: GSDs are smart, highly energetic working dogs so training and giving your dog a “job” to do is essential. An untrained, poorly exercised GSD is a disaster waiting to happen. Their intelligence and desire to please their humans makes them extremely trainable dogs and most learn new behaviors (good and bad!) very quickly. One study on dog intelligence indicates that they can learn new tricks within 3-5 repetitions and are the third most intelligent breed behind Border Collies and Poodles. They do very well with positive reinforcement training (for more info see the Dog Training Megathread) and excel at just about any dog sport you can think of. Search and Rescue, herding, tracking, Schutzhund, French Ring, Competitive Obedience, Rally-O, and therapy work are all excellent activities to get your dog involved in. For more information on dog sports, see the Dog Sport Megathread. Regarding exercise, a walk or two around the block isn’t going to cut it for most GSDs and if you’re looking for a couch potato dog this definitely isn’t the breed for you. These are dogs bred to work their asses off and without a lot of exercise they become neurotic, loud, and destructive. Biking with your dog, running, hiking, swimming, puzzle toys, training, and dog sports are great ways to wear out your high energy monster. Remember: to wear out these dogs you need a combination of exercise and mental stimulation (training, puzzle toys, tracking, etc). Just one or the other just isn’t going to cut it. GSDs are really vocal and I don’t think anything can prepare you for just how much they whine. Mine “talks” to himself all day long, especially when he’s playing or really happy. He doesn’t bark much but he’s constantly grumbling, whining, giggling like a hyena, and making other weird gremlin noises. They tend to be velcro dogs and are always very curious about what their humans are doing. What this basically means is that they get into EVERYTHING and are constantly trying to "help" you. I can’t remember the last time I took a shower, cooked, or went into abother room without a long black nose poking into check out what I was doing  .  "you look like you could use some assistance" Links: Breed Standard Illustrated Breed Standard Illustrated GSD Club of America Judges Booklet Front and Rear Angulation in the Working Dog German Shepherd Coat Genetics Wildhaus Kennels - PI’s favorite GSD breeder The American German Shepherd Rescue Association German Shepherd Rescue U.K Triangulum fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jan 30, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2012 03:16
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Filboid Studge posted:I love GSDs. A lot of that has to do with the way GSDs are stacked combined with whether you are used to seeing American showlines or German/Euro showlines. Unless you live somwhere with a plethora of DDR or Czech working lines, chances are really good that you aren't used to seeing structurally sound dogs. Those illustrations are of stacked GSDs, meaning their hind legs are pulled out to emphasize the rear angulaion and slope of the back. If they were standing naturally, you wouldn't see such an extreme slope in the back. There's also a very distinct difference which in physical traits are bred for in the US and Germany. To be honest, the Germans are just as bad about loving up the structure of their show dogs as the Americans. The American show lines breed for ridiculous amounts of rear angulation and a sort of triangle shaped body whereas the German lines breed for insanely roached backs (and rear end angulation of course  ). Both lead to terrible physical problems within the breed, but hey at least the Germans require health testing and working titles to get breeding papers.But you are correct in a sense. The sketches come from an illustrator who does the artwork for the GSD judging booklet so her sketches tend to show correct show dog structure rather than the most ideal structure for working dogs. Her website is definitely worth checking out, there are a lot of interesting illustations and discussion about the problems within showlines. This is another good illustration of how European showlines are loving up the GSDs structure just as badly as the Americans. GSDs are about the best example out there of how harmful dog showing can be to a breed's structure, health, and functionality. cryingscarf posted:Great job on the OP. Very informative It's not referring to coat patterns, it means the physical structure of the dog's body. Secondary sex characteristics refer to the structure of the head, the bulkiness of the body, etc. Here's a little illustration:  GOOD HEADS, from the top: Working/show cross, Tim West German show, Lasso American show, Brynn (female) East German, Falco Painting by Linda J Shaw You'll notice a more pronounced stop, wider muzzle, thicker neck, and larger head in all the males whereas the bitch has much finer features. This thread on the German Shepherd Dog forums discusses secondary sex characteristics more thoroughly. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 19:36
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notsowelp posted:Am I right that you don't see so many sable GSDs in the show ring? They always seem to be Black and Tans. There's a pretty big prejudice against sables and solid blacks in the show ring. With solid blacks it's mostly caused by there being relatively few of them in the breeding stock (unlike most dog breeds, GSDs only carry recessive black). Sables are incredibly prominent in working lines but for whatever reason have traditionally done very poorly in shows. The fact that black and tans have been incredibly popular in shows for a very long time combined with the fact that a GSD carrying any other color can never throw a sable pup kind of ends up breeding sables out of show rings. And you aren't kidding about them being "lifestyle" dogs. My boy's gonna be 5 months old next week and I spend almost all day keeping him entertained. We go out to the park or river for 1-1.5 hrs 2x a day, go on a couple of short training/bathroom break walks, and spend a couple hours inside playing and doing training, and he's still raring to go at midnight when my husband gets home. The fact that we live in a 1 bedroom apartment with no yard exacerbates how much I have to take him out but he's really loving smart and REALLY high energy. They're not dogs for the faint of heart or the lazy. He'd probably be ok with a bit less interaction if I got him used to it, but I don't work at the moment and I don't have too many friends in Germany so it's all dog poo poo every day It's awesome. I wish my life could be like this forever
Triangulum fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 22:18
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Poor temperment isn't a result of experience though, that's almost entirely genetic. Life experience, training, etc. can definitely exacerbate or reduce how reactive the animal is though. And honestly, really lovely temperments are rampant in GSDs.
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Dec 12, 2012 00:26
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Warbadger posted:Honestly it's not something supported by science at this point and is at least somewhat based on outdated concepts that used to be applied to pretty much everything including humans ala eugenics. As in humans or any other animal genetics can influence instinctive behavior which serves as a basic foundation for development, but virtually all of our complex behaviors are learned. A well bred GSD/Pitbull/Pomeranian can become a vicious animal or it can also become a kid's cuddly playmate. In some cases they end up being both at different point sin life. A lovely BYB dog can do the same. That doesn't really support the theory that breeding has a hell of a lot to do with it. I understand what you're saying but I'm curious as to why you classify all aggression in dogs as a complex, learned behavior that has to be trained for. Some breeds have been bred to display certain types of aggression due to the way their breed historically was utilized (Akitas and same-sex aggression, Pit Bulls and dog aggression etc). Comparing it to human behavior and eugenics is kind of absurd because there haven't been hundreds of years of controlled human breeding programs to ensure specific types of human display specific physical and psychological traits. Yeah, a well-bred dog can still become a vicious terror because training and life experience DO play a big role in how animals behave. And being well-bred doesn't mean that a dog is guaranteed to inherit all it's lines positive traits. But there's a reason every breed standard includes temperment rather than just apperance. Take the Vick dogs in the article ALL linked. That does make sense when you take into consideration what Pit Bulls have been bred for and the fact that there's no link between dog aggression and human aggression. Pit Bulls aren't trained to fight each other, they've been bred to desperately want to do it. With training they can learn to not act on those feelings, but training doesn't magically stop them from being dog aggressive. Sorry if that's kinda scattershot and doesn't make loads of sense. I'm sleep deprived as hell. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Dec 12, 2012 |
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Dec 12, 2012 09:20
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I don't think he can either.
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Dec 12, 2012 21:58
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WolfensteinBag posted:GUYS! I'm definitely no expert in structure in the slightest (that's why I wanted you to do the breed post  ) but I really like the look of some of the dogs that came out of Roland von Starkenburg(SchH3, Kkl 1, 2x VA1) especially Klodo vom Boxberg.Roland himself is pretty drat weird looking.  But drat his lines threw some nice looking dogs. My two favorites are Hettel von Uckermark, HGH, VA1 (1st gen)  Klodo vom Boxberg, SCHH, VA1, Kkl 1 (2nd gen)  Klodo is hands down my favorite Sieger winner and is what I picture as "ideal" for the breed. But like I said, I'm not terribly knowledgable when it comes to conformation. E: I found a pretty cool site that has tons of information about specific GSDs. It's searchable by registered name. This is Klodo's page. And a little more about him: quote:Klodo was the picture of balanced angulation, front and rear, the front reaching, the rear driving, proper croup, held together with a back. Indications are that the dog moved nearly as perfectly as they had imagined possible to that point. As he moved forward his head dropped to a position just above the shoulders and he dug in and moved, effortlessly, endlessly, correctly, on and on. There was no flipping of pasterns or fixed hock joints on that dog. It was the picture of endurance and efficiency that Von Stephanitz had been looking for. It marked a point where new goals were set. The epitome had been reached, from the 1925 Sieger show there was now a new Standard of Excellence. quote:Klodo was imported to this country shortly after his great German victory and quickly acquired his US championship. Surprisingly, Klodo never won the Grand Victor title in this country, perhaps because he was only 24" at the shoulder and not a very flashy dog, but Klodo and his sire Erich v Grafenwerth were the dog to modernize and more of less revolutionize the Shepherd Breed. Klodo, was truly a dog of magnificent structure, very substantial, good angulation fore and aft, a rich dark pigmented and a quite composed self-assurance. Klodo was a great dog and a great sire while in Germany, siring many greats. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Dec 12, 2012 |
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Dec 12, 2012 22:50
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Well thank you My best friend in elementary school had a GSD named Rusty and he was the dog that made me love the breed. He was such a cool dog. Vecna's from a sort of  background. We got him in some farmlands down in Lower Saxony. His mom's West German show lines, has her Sch3, and was hip & elbow tested (SV-HD Normal) but his dad Oskar's background is kind of a mystery. The dude we got Vecna from had no intention of breeding his dogs, Oskar was a rescue and he was told that Oskar was fixed (they do vasectomies rather than castrations here). Whoops, apparently not! He did hip test Oskar and he's SV-HD normal as well. We paid for Vecna's first round of vaccinations and his deworming and that was it. So yeah Vecna's not the most responsibly bred dog out there but w/e, the parents at least had a bit of testing, he works all his dogs, and the mom's got her Sch3. His parents are pretty nice looking and cool dogs though. Mom (her name is Elka I think)    Oskar    I think Vecna looks a lot like his mom:   He's kind of fat in that last picture... Triangulum fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Dec 13, 2012 |
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Dec 13, 2012 14:11
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Boy I sure am glad literally the only on topic poo poo you've posted in this thread was repeating information from the OP.
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Dec 13, 2012 19:20
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Of course. Mutty GSDs are as welcome as ~purebreds~ We took Vecna to the park right before sundown (4 pm  ) to play some ball off leash. Gotta say, I'm really impressed with his recall. He's gotten to the point where even if he's running up to a bird, rabbit, or dog I can just give the whistle and he'll turn around on a dime and come charging back to me. Which is really awesome because in this weather his long line freezes solid. I've also learned that Kong balls are literally the best thing in the world. He'll ignore hot dogs, pizza, and every animal in the world if that ball is out. I think I'm going to have to crush his world and reserve it for a training reward. Good dog
Triangulum fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Dec 13, 2012 |
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Dec 13, 2012 19:42
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Skizzles posted:This might belong in the mutt thread, but it's GSD related so I'll put it here. 6-Ethyl Bearcat posted:Are white GSDs and 'White Swiss Shepherds' the same thing or are WSSs an actual separate breed? "White Swiss Shepherds" are just white GSDs, but the White Swiss Shepherd Club is trying to get the AKC to recognize them as a seperate breed. I'm curious how other people feel about trying to develope them as a seperate breed in general. I have kind of mixed feelings on it. On one hand, the reasoning behind excluding them from comformation was based on faulty assuptions and where kind of nonsensical. On the other, at this point breeding them indicates ignoring the standard and breeding for coat color, which I don't agree with. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Dec 14, 2012 |
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Dec 14, 2012 11:43
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WolfensteinBag posted:Dude! That's pretty much the best accidental litter ever. I'm shocked how good mom looks for being WGS, NOTHING like the average you'd see here. And dad is handsome as poo poo!! Czech, maybe? For two pet dogs, you couldn't ask for something better to happen (as far as testing, working, etc.) I've been so impressed with the level of dog care here. It's so rare to run across a fat, greasy dog and since training collars are illegal, almost everyone carries a bag of treats to work on training. There aren't any dog parks in my city but all the parks are "dog friendly" and I think it makes people pay a lot more attention to what their dogs are doing. The only thing that really irks me is that when scuffles break out, nobody goes in and grabs their dog. But it's still leaps and bounds above what I've seen back in the US. quote:I had no idea white GSDs were so screwed up. quote:GIVE IT A REST! Sorry 
Triangulum fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Dec 14, 2012 |
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Dec 14, 2012 14:02
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Everyone else has taken discussion elsewhere, you're awesome, and I agree with you on everything you've been posting, but enough is enough! I'm stressed enough in my "real" life, I don't need it in PI, too, damnit.
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Warbadger, you're correct about there being no disallowed coat colors prior to the Nazi party taking control of the SV (though deeper pigmentation has always been preferred) and that everyone should read "The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture". It's a pretty awesome book as long as you can get past Stephanitz's weird tangents and ramblings about savages (suprise surprise, he had some pretty... interesting opinions abour race too). It just came out for Kindle too so it's way cheaper than it used to be. I think the ebook version runs about $9. Personally I don't think there's any huge issue with changing the standard to accept a larger variaty of coat colors but honestly, it's not going to happen. Various clubs have been in a huge battle with the AKC over the current interpretation of the standard. Some clubs have wanted aspects of the standard changed to make it clearer that frogdogs are not in fact the ideal GSD and wanted to implement German-style breed surveys before GSDs can be bred but they haven't really gotten anywhere. Some other breed clubs are having similar battles with the AKC over changing the standard and are getting precisely nowhere. That being said, the reason most of us disagree with white shepherds, Panda Shepherds, Shilo Shepherds, and King Shepherds being recognized as their own breed (or being bred at all) is because they're being bred only for color (in the case of the first two) or size (in the case of the latter two). GSDs already have tons of issues with soundness and intentionally breeding them larger and larger exacerbates this problem. Whites, pandas, blues, livers, and goldens aren't being intentionally bred to improve the breed, they're being bred for their "rare" coat coloration and that's it. We've already seen what happens to GSDs being bred for looks alone, that's how the show strains got so hosed up. If the standard is going to be changed it should be to help improve the physical and tempermental soundess of the breed not because other coat colors are nifty and weird guilt about ~eugenics~ and Nazis. Likewise, if the weird varients of GSDs are going to be their own breed, they need to be working towards a purpose besides "they look cool". Triangulum fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 10:25
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That's really cool that the UKC changed the standard  Hey Wolfenstein, do you wanna borrow my ebook copy of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture? I can lend it to you through Amazon. Today a police officer told my husband that if we ever decided to get rid of Vecna to give them a call because they could really use some more good dogs on the force  He said he really liked how good Vecna's recall and emergency "leave it" is Good dog.
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Dec 17, 2012 11:49
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Dude war badger, you're completely ignoring most of what anyone is posting and just harping on eugenics and other weird poo poo. I'm seriously done arguing with you, it's like talking to a Nazi obsessed brick wall. I think you might have missed this: Triangulum posted:Hey Wolfenstein, do you wanna borrow my ebook copy of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture? I can lend it to you through Amazon. Actually though if anyone else wants to borrow it, lemme know. I have a couple copies of it and it's a pretty interesting (if wordy as hell) book.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:56
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WolfensteinBag posted:I was JUST thinking about how I forgot that!!! I would LOVE to!!! Thanks!!! I have NO idea how it works, though. I need the email address linked to your Amazon account and that's it. You can download the Kindle reader for your PC here. You'll have the book for 14 days Triangulum fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 22:14
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WolfensteinBag posted:Ok, I'll talk to my husband. After this week, I'm off until the 3rd, so I'll probably read it then. Awesome All the cool GSD books are insanely expensive, it's such a bummer. I really want a copy of The German Shepherd: A Genetic History and German Shepherd Champions 1952-1980 but they're really pricey. The first one runs about $100 That's why I was so happy about The German Shepherd in Word and Picture coming out for Kindle, you can get it for $9 now (of course it comes out after I alread shelled out $50 for a hardcover version).
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Dec 18, 2012 22:37
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That is SO awesome, I've always wanted to pick up a hard copy, but it's so expensive!
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Of the breeds you listed only two are straight up herding dogs, one of which does not accept solid white dogs (Old English Sheepdog). Livestock guardian dogs are not the same thing as herding dogs. e: f,b Triangulum fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 23:25
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Mods please change thread name to "Landsharks in Jackboots", tia.notsowelp posted:The arguments about what is or isn't 'correct' in GSDs always baffle me because GSDs have had such a diverse array of roles throughout their history. Concepts such as 'preservationist breeding' fall down for me with breeds like GSDs, because they have evolved to fill so many different niches over the last century+. Is the 'real' German Shepherd a herder or a police dog? A Schutzhund champion, a seeing eye dog or a Westminster BIS? It all depends on your perspective, and I'm not sure that there's a 'right' answer. The way I look at it is that the "correct" GSD (as a general concept, not as an individual dog) should be able to fulfill all these roles and do them well. They're exactly that: a multipurpose working breed and both structure and temperment should reflect that. I think you've hit it on the nose though, you can't necessarily hold up individual dogs as the "most correct" due to their function because they've been bred to fulfil such a diverse set of jobs. For me, the most correct GSD has more to do with temperment, nerve, and structural soundess rather than "precisely what job does this dog do?", though each individual should be able to do well in one of it's working functions. If you look at most of the jobs GSDs are supposed to do (SAR dogs, police dogs, Schutzhund, war dogs, etc) there's a definite commonality in the physical and tempermental traits required of them. My exclusion here of course would be "Westminister BIS" because goddamn, gently caress like 99% of GSD show breeders. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 23:58
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Stregone posted:
Please tell me that's the only face Alice makes. She looks like the most judgemental dog in the universe Is Shelby a mix? His face almost looks like a Mal rather than a GSD. He's cute as poo poo either way.
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Dec 19, 2012 15:50
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Please mail me MoMo, I need him. He can come be buddies with Vecna and they can ruin my life together. Vecna's big dumb nose had a growth spurt and now he looks retarded. I was looking over the bitches Wildhaus is considering breeding down the line and man, Maika is a nice looking puppy.   Triangulum fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 22:46
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It seems like tons of good German dogs come from Bavaria, especially east Bavaria. We looked at a lot of breeders down there when we were looking to get a dog but having to drive 6+ hours to check out the parents and breeding facilities would have been almost impossible for us to do. It never ceases to amaze me how confused people are by GSDs who aren't B&T stock coats. I get asked if Vecna is a lab mix or a Belgian Shepherd at least once a week Stregone posted:Alice makes all sorts of faces. Hahaha holy poo poo, Alice is the best. Does anyone do Schutzhund with their dogs? I'd like to get into it but there don't seem to be any groups in my city and of course I worry a bit about the training methods used. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Dec 21, 2012 |
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Dec 21, 2012 13:06
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I didn't know people were crossing GSDs with turtles these days~
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Dec 21, 2012 15:16
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your dogs are the best dogs I love how naughty MoMo is (because I don't have to deal with it)DenialTwist posted:Kinda late, but Yay GSD thread. I have a one of these monster and it is weirdest dog experience I've ever had. I wish someone would have told me I was getting a dog that could carry it's own weight in emotional baggage. (Also, oh god the noises.) Living with Maverick is like living with a three year old that is constantly on verge of having either the best or worst day of her life. Oh you decided to have people spend the week in MY house, well how about I bark at them whenever they move because clearly you're not doing anything about getting them the gently caress out of here. Oh you came home and I got to chase a stray cat out of the yard, BEST loving DOG DAY EVER! Literally nothing can prepare you for the noises a GSD makes I've never heard another dog make such an ungodly, horrible racket. He either sounds like a hyena or a dying ghost most of the time. And yeah, you basically described Vecna. Every day is either The Best Thing Ever or HELP MY WOLRD IS COLLAPSING IN ON ITSELF. About a month ago my mom came to visit and we had to rearrange a bunch of furniture to fit a matress for her. He spend about 2 days just furiously angry at everything in the world because you moved My Chair and there is this PERSON here and she's in My Spot how could you allow this  . He spent the remainder of her visit incessantly harassing her trying to get her to play with him, which I found kinda adorable but she found really intimidating.Getting my family to understand him is going to be... interesting. I'm the only person in my family who doesn't own some sort of doodle and holy poo poo, those dogs could not possibly be more different. My mom kept freaking out when he was barking and jumping around and mouthing me because she thought he was attacking me. (The obnoxious mouthing is mostly under control now, he just kinda bumps his jaws against me when he's excited rather than chomping down and giving me horrible bruises) I'm pretty sure my extended family is going to think he's aggressive because he likes to yell at poo poo when he's happy and loves to tug and being a Crazy Dog. Sorry guys, real dogs like to Do A Thing 
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Dec 21, 2012 21:21
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Anne Whateley posted:Is that normal? It's not necessarily abnormal, but yeah most GSDs are pretty huge blabbermouths. Vecna will shut up if I tell him to knock it off but I only do that for things like barking at birds outside the window or screaming about the postman bringing him a new present. I find his horrific yowling kind of endearing So guys. In the last 3 months, my puppy has gone from this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1U8TRCs6k0 (oh my god my clicker timing is so bad this was our first week together, i'm a lot better now I swear)to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeSMCeqzCgo Where the gently caress did my little puppy go??? I'm sorry about the poo poo lighting and shaky camera. I only have my iPhone at the moment and well... this is winter in Germany. We have about 6 hours of daylight right now. It's hard to get a well lit video. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Dec 21, 2012 |
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Dec 21, 2012 22:53
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I don't know if anyone's interested, but I found a site that focuses on clicker training for Schutzhund. This is their YouTube channel. Also I found an awesome video of a 7 year old handler in the 2010 Working Dog Championships. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=?Sn3VghnNEpc
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Dec 24, 2012 16:57
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Yeah they are balance trainers, but the instruction stuff on their website is all clicker training. Pure clicker training in Schutzhund is really, really uncommon though I have seen a few people who clicker train the protection phase, and R+ is usually used for the tracking phase. There does seem to be some movement in protection, police, and military work to start moving towards positive training methods though, especially since the military has found that some complex behaviors can't be trained via traditional methods. I'd be curious to see how R+/P- dogs do in protection sports but honestly I don't know of any trainers who purely use it. I think it's kind of ridiculous to call the training method "macho" though because it's really not about that. In other news, Vecna got some Christmas presents today    He hates his bow E: I got some cool dog books from my husband for Christmas! He knows me so well  Triangulum fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Dec 25, 2012 |
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Dec 24, 2012 21:41
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I think comparing police and miltary handlers to sport handlers is misleading, even if there is a lot of crossover between the groups. I think it's kind of understandable that police and military handlers are so gung-ho about harsh corrections because their dogs need to be bomb proof and if those dogs gently caress up, people get hurt. Schutzhund is a protection sport but it's still a sport, even if lots of police handlers are into it. There actually was a pretty cool article on Sophia Yin's website about a slight move towards R+ based training in the military because they've found some behaviors flat out cannot be taught via force based training. You can read it here. Honestly though, I'd be surprised if the military and police force ever move completely away from compulsion-based training. I'm about halfway through the Schutzhund book I got for Xmas (Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods) and I'm really surprised how little force the authors advocate, which is a pleasent surprise. Honestly beyond basic "how do I train dog" books, it's been one of the most useful training books I've ever read. As Vecna gets older I've noticed that while he'll work for food with no problem, he doesn't have the attentiveness, enthusiasm, and drive I'd like to see out of him. But he thinks I have a rubber ball in my pocket he will literally throw himself into downs and sits and he'll ignore any distraction we've encountered so far (even people food, other dogs, and chasing small animals). The thing I really dig about this book is that they start out training the behaviors with food and once the dog understands them, they move on to a ball reward. I know it sounds kind of stupid but I've had a hard time figuring out how to transition from food to toy rewards in a lot of situations and it's outlined so clearly and precisely here. Just as a random example: His recall used to to be really excellent but recently he's taken up the obnoxious habit of coming slowly and sometimes sniffing around before coming. He does this even if I run away from him and start making stupid noises and use the highest food reward possible. We've been practicing a restrained recall using fetch as a reward and the difference between his recalls is astounding. Same thing with using a ball reward for a sit/stay and down/stay. The only issue I've really run into with the ball reward so far is that he gets really resource guard-y around other dogs if it's on the ground and putting it away doesn't work. If the ball's on the ground he'll chase other dogs off of it and if I put it in my pocket or in a bag, he knows I have it so he'll chase off any dog that comes up to say 'hi'. If a dog steals his ball or he can carry it around in his mouth, he's pretty much fine but it's a little stressful to deal with.
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Dec 25, 2012 21:52
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That's how they're trained by the US police force (and in Schutzhund) as well. Ugh the worst part about shepherd puppies is how they jump up and gnaw the poo poo out of your arm when they're excited. It's not a big deal when we're in the house because I can just toss him in timeout but it makes me want to shoot him when he does it on walks. He doesn't do it nearly as much as he used to but sometimes he gets The Crazy (like today  ) and it's just JUMP JUMP BITE BITE BITE JUMP SCREAMgently caress you dog I stopped carrying a tug on walks because I thought you were over this poo poo
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Dec 29, 2012 19:21
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I took some videos of my husband working with Vecna at the park today. drat that dog loves his ball. Restrained recall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9-gFmy6Fw4 Fetch and recall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njf8nZM3ojY Very sloppy sits and downs. He's so drat excited for the ball that he just bounces around lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS1bEimE-98 A sloppy leg weave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrNzZKZ83T4 Man he's getting so big and training him with the ball is so fun He's sloppy as hell right now but we're working on speed and ethusiasm rather than the behaviors being neat. I'll worry about cleaning them up later.E: This evening Vecna loving launched himself over a 4 ft. high wall at top speed to get a ball that accidently got thrown over it Jesus loving Christ dog.
Triangulum fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jan 2, 2013 |
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Jan 2, 2013 13:06
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He's pretty much the best dog WolfensteinBag posted:haha I love how Venca slooowwlllyyy scoots his sits and downs back in the direction the ball's going to go. Haha the scooting drives me nuts but it is really cute. I was hoping I could get a video of him bounding off the ground into a sit but I was too slow. But man, the best thing about GSDs is how into training they can be. It makes up for the horrible biting pretty well. When we use the ball for training I have to force him to take a break or he'll run himself into the ground and he usually spends most of the break pouting and trying to get me to throw his ball again. My husband took a video of us doing tracking but uh... it's pretty bad. I really screwed up some of the handling when we first got started so I'm having to retrain a bunch of poo poo. He gets really, really excited about tracking and charges down the track, which isn't acceptable. So now I'm holding him on a super short leash so he can't wander off track and pointing out the food drops he misses in hopes he'll learn to track slowly and methodically. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTHcXXG3Ay4 Honestly I'm thinking I might need to backtrack even further and just have him work on scent pads for a while. I should have done more research before we started
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Jan 3, 2013 14:07
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Vecna is six months old! Have some photos from today!       I'm gonna try and get his height, weight, and a vaugely stacked picture in a bit. E: Best I could get sadly  Height: 58 cm/22.8" Weight: 29 kilos/64 lbs Triangulum fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 15:01
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WolfensteinBag posted:Wow, he's so handsome!! It's hard to believe he's only 6 months, he already has 10lb on my dog. Thanks My husband bought him some chew toys and I made him a new tug to celebrate his half birthday. I can't believe how big he is, he's going to be a big loving dog when he grows up. I know in the last pic he looks like he doesn't have much of an abdominal tuck but trust me when I say that's a result of my lovely picture taking abilities. When he's not being shoved into all sorts of awkward positions he looks lean and muscular as poo poo Some more dumb park pictures  Vecna's new trick is putting his front feet on whatever I tap.  Sticks are pretty much the poo poo It's hard to believe that my dog went from this  to this  That's really sad to hear about Wildhaus I've been trying to stay off their website because my husband's started talking about "When we get our next GSD..." rather than "If we get another dog..." and Wildhaus dogs are just too tempting
Triangulum fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jan 14, 2013 |
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Jan 14, 2013 02:52
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ing the Wildhaus site waiting for breeding news. Seems like they've had a bad year, just noticed one of their dogs passed away just at the end of the year, so that makes 4 for 2012.
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Your dog is loving beautiful, I am so jealous. Where did you get him from? How old is he? I love his little white beard I know I've mentioned a few times how much training recall with a ball has changed Vecna's compliance and how awesome the book Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods is, so I scanned a bit of the recall section. If this counts as  , I'll take it down (but seriously, if you have a ball crazy dog buy this book).     Sorry about the weird cropping and image sizes.
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Jan 19, 2013 18:19
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No problem, I'd just recommend ignoring anything from that book that talks about whacking your dog with the leash because he didn't listen or any of the correction poo poo. If you throw that stuff out, it's a loving fantastic book for figuring out how to train using ball rewards rather than food rewards. Not that there's anything wrong with food rewards or anything, but my dog's way more into fetch and tug. Out of curiosity, do you know how tall he is at the shoulder? I'm guessing Vecna will end up about that heavy once he hits adulthood and finishes filling out.
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Jan 19, 2013 18:47
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 Vecna's 6 months old and 58 cm.I really wish his "breeder" could figure out the Internet and email and all that poo poo. I'd really love to know how tall his mom and dad are just for comparison's sake.
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Jan 19, 2013 19:09
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Congrats Aslan I really can't wait to get back to the US so I can get Vecna in some training classes. He could use it hahaadventure in the sandbox posted:I don't have a strong opinion either way. Both matches look good to me but I really think you have your heart set on a Wildhaus dog This is pretty much my feelings on Granville. I'm not crazy about how leggy both sire and dam are and their rear angulation looks off to me in the stacked photos, especially the dam. But I'm no expert in structure so take that with a grain of salt. That combined with relatively unknown health in the lines and lack of SchH, IPO, or KKL titles kind of puts me off. I get the "do what the dog loves" mindset but the whole point of Schutzhund is to determine which GSDs are worthy of being bred and the fact that not a single one of her dogs is SchH, IPO, or KKL titled rings alarm bells for me. None of the dogs on Coltrane's dam's lines are titled in anything besides conformation for like 5 generations, which also sketches me out because she's bred by the same breeder. Kashmir's lines look a lot better in terms of titling though. I dunno, they don't look terrible or anything but the lack of titling outside conformation and stuff like lure coursing and dock diving makes me think they're basically nice looking show dogs v  v I'm kind of a weirdo I guess because I honestly don't like seeing conformation titles in GSDs at all.
Triangulum fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 20:48
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Yeah but keep in mind that GSDs in the US are mostly overbred messes with a list of health and temperment problems a mile long. It's possible to find a good one who's soundly put together, has a solid temperment, good drive, and few health problems in rescues but it ain't easy. If you have a goal in mind with the dog like Wolfenstein does, you're better getting a puppy with a known pedigree history and a predictable temperment. You're also not going to have much luck finding a GSD you can show with in a rescue. But to be fair, my opinions on GSDs rescues are probably pretty skewed from past experience. Actually speaking of rescue GSDs, Saber (that crazy dog I tried to adopt a year or so ago ended up being adopted by his foster family. I know a lot of people in PI thought he should have been put down because of his aggression issues but I'm happy he's found a stable living enviornment with people who can deal with his poo poo. He was crazy, but I still miss him.  WolfensteinBag posted:Is there something wrong that, on paper, I don't have a problem with this? Not really, I'm just kind of a hardline rear end in a top hat about hating GSD showing. I can totally understand where you're coming from though. quote:At any rate, she got back to me last night, and unless a puppy pops out at the time with a fantastically stellar personality that isn't already claimed, I think I'm going to end up passing. She was absolutely up front about the personalities of the dogs involved, and didn't try to "sell" the litter at all, which I absolutely love. But, Coltrane's dam has issues with being OVERLY protective (although Coltrane himself has a great personality) and she was describing Cashmere's temperament as very husky-like (which is why she hasn't worked at getting her higher titles), which I'm fine training, but the whole goal of getting GSD from a breeder, aside from health, was a very biddable temperament. Yeah I definitely would pass on that. What a bummer. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jan 23, 2013 |
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Jan 23, 2013 16:38
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" I've also come to learn that there are a LOT of people out there who will purchase an already titled dog just to breed them, then there's also great people who know what they're doing and know how to gauge personality, who don't have the resources to title their dogs so high. I'm also actually interested in getting
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WolfensteinBag posted:I am soooo glad about Saber!!! Haha good because I said some super stupid poo poo about wanting a ~guard dog~ when I was first looking into getting a GSD. But yeah, I'm really happy Saber found his home and honestly when we had to cancel the foster to adopt, I had a suspicion his fosters would keep him. His foster mom cried so much when she handed him over to us that she had to leave the room and couldn't watch us take him. Saber, Duke, and Minka 
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Jan 25, 2013 12:59
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