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Zypher
Sep 3, 2009

Rutgers

Your 2006
Mythical National
Champions!


Season 1 of GoonTier is drawing to a close!

Tier Jerkers have asserted their dominance and taken over the role of as the "Tier A" keeper league. Meanwhile, players in the Wild Front Tier have been doomed to a re-draft season next year.

What is Promotion / Relegation?

Wikipedia posted:

In sports leagues, promotion and relegation is a process where teams are transferred between two divisions based on their performance for the completed season. The best-ranked teams in the lower division are promoted to the division above, and the worst-ranked teams in the higher division are relegated to the division below.

The Rules
Buyin: $20
Website: ESPN
Tiers: 2
# of teams per tier: 12
# of teams promoted each year: 3 winners of a 6 team playoff
# of teams relegated each year: 3 losers of a 4 team playoff
Each tier has a separate, but equal, payout
Roster: QB 2 RB 2 WR TE FLEX K 1 DL 2 LB 2 DB DFLEX 7 BN
Scoring: 0.5 PPR, otherwise ESPN Standard

Tier A is a keeper league. Each keeper costs a draft pick -1 round from previous year's draft. Teams that are new to Tier A (promoted from Tier B) will participate in a supplemental draft to choose their keepers.

Tier B is a re-draft league.

Additional Rules
More detailed rules can be found on page 2 here. These mostly apply to the keeper league, Tier A.

League Links
Tier Jerkers
The Wild Front Tier

Playoffs!
darkspider42 vs Chen Kinichi for the Jerkers championship
old dog child vs Suave Fedora for the Wild Front championship

Diqnol won the first ever relegation bracket.

Next Year's Draft Order
Tier Jerkers
1. odc/Suave Fedora
2. odc/Suave Fedora
3. my lovely cat/dewey7788
4. Diqnol
5. jabro
6. Parmesan Basil
7. Azhais
8. Mikey Purp
9. Zypher/Anubis
10. Zypher/Anubis
11. darkspider42/Chen Kinichi
12. darkspider42/Chen Kinichi

Wild Front Tier
1. bobby2times
2. Rcarr
3. Master Stur
4. HiroProtagonist
5. Barehanded Brother
6. Obama Yo Mama
7. Smash Adams
8. ffoecaf
9. zeroordie
10. Boywunda
11. Baser Instinct
12. my lovely cat/dewey7788

IRC info
Diqnol and old dog child setup an IRC channel for discussion and general jackassery:

synirc
#goontier


2014 Waiting List

quote:

Deer_fire

Updating the OP as we go.

Zypher fucked around with this message at Dec 17, 2013 around 20:12

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old dog child
May 21, 2008

are perry'd jokes still funny or did I just waste 10 bucks?

Hi, my name is old dog child, and I'm barely finishing up my first year so please be gentle.

Zypher posted:

Issues
  • Money league or free?
  • How many tiers?
  • How many teams per tier?
  • How do we decide which league is Tier A and which league is Tier B? First come first serve? Random? Based on end of first season performance?
ground.

Money or free: money league with entry fee based on league tier (nothing crazy, like 10/20 or something)

# of tiers: Two tiers would be perfect. I don't think goons will have enough skill disparity to really need more than that.

# of teams: at least 14 for the top tier, 10-12 for the lower tier(s)

Who is in what: random lottery first year (so they are equal basically) and top half from each tier forms the top tier. We shouldn't use overall results because it would restrict competition within divisions/tiers if teams knew they didn't have to beat anyone in their own league.

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


I think the first year it should just be two separate leagues, and then we will put the 12(?) playoff teams from each league into Tier A the next season.


e: adjust accordingly for total # of teams.


e2: 14 team league with 8 team playoff, 12 team league with 6 team playoff, teams selected at random, 14 playoff teams go to Tier A, 12 non-playoff teams into B

Obama Yo Mama fucked around with this message at Dec 14, 2012 around 04:12

Zypher
Sep 3, 2009

Rutgers

Your 2006
Mythical National
Champions!


That would be more fair OYM, but how do you decide keepers then in that scenario?

dalstrs
Mar 11, 2004

At least this way my kill will have some use

I'd be in, but I don't think keepers really work with the bouncing between divisions.

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


I guess the most fair way, would be to just make the first year a full placement year and then worry about keepers year two.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

Distrusting me was the wisest thing you've done.

Yeah, how do keepers work? Players can't really be shared with tiered leagues like that unless the matchups are artificial and handled outside of sites.

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


Darko posted:

Yeah, how do keepers work? Players can't really be shared with tiered leagues like that unless the matchups are artificial and handled outside of sites.

My understanding is that only the teams in Tier A that aren't relegated will have keepers, and the teams that are dropped to B will have their players added back to the pool


e: The problem is that there will be the same players across teams in the first year while we are creating the top tier, there might be a way to do it but it'll probably involve something. crazy like:

A) Maybe only let the playoff teams that get promoted keep one player the first year with preference going to whichever team has the better record/more points/advanced further in their respective playoffs?

Or

B) Maybe a pre-draft keeper-only auction draft between all of the players claimed as kept between the two leagues? That would be kinda nuts and hard to pull off but has some pretty awesome potential

Obama Yo Mama fucked around with this message at Dec 14, 2012 around 04:34

Boywunda
Jun 25, 2003



Another chance at beating OYM, I'm in!!

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007


I'd be in, better than the goonfleet league

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


I'm also guessing that we will be having these keeper dynasty style (ie. their rounds don't matter, they're just added to your team at the end of the draft in the last X amount of rounds) because if we're doing it round dependent, it's going to probably get really complicated and hard to manage.

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


Also, I vote that this league is IDP, and we have 2 Offense, 2 Defense and 1 choice (or something along those lines) because team defenses suck

Faltese Malkin
Aug 22, 2005
Georgetown

I would be okay with a random draw for who gets placed in the tiers.

If we did keepers, would there be a way to benefit a team transferring from one tier to the next? Maybe you don't have any players to keep, but you get the first pick (or maybe supplemental picks)

Edit: seconding the motion for IDP. It's so much better than having to use a D/ST

old dog child
May 21, 2008

are perry'd jokes still funny or did I just waste 10 bucks?

I am voting against IDP because I'm scared and afraid of change.

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


old dog child posted:

I am voting against IDP because I'm scared and afraid of change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ur69rjRQFs

darkspider42
Oct 7, 2004

Best Buy security. You'll have to come with me sir.

I'm interested, money is fine if its not to high (10 would be good)

Here's a crazy idea, keep the player pool the same across both leagues but have very small rosters (QB,RB,WR,TE,FLEX, IDPs?) and only a few bench spots (2 or 3) to force alot of churn. We should be able to accomplish this via divisions on ESPN and do one massive draft and only play interdivision and have a champ on champ matchup in week 17. Crazy idea but could be interesting.

Time
Aug 1, 2011



I'm so incredibly ready for this league. So, so ready. I'll post some thoughts on it in a little.

zeroordie
Aug 27, 2004



I'm definitely interested.

(Also voting against IDP, just for the record.)

HiroProtagonist
May 7, 2007

This is an accurate representation of my current level of enjoyment.

I'm in for this.

I'd be okay with a money league but for logistics I think it might be better if the inaugural season was a free one. Maximize interest, promote credibility, and all that. It'd give an easy way to distribute teams between tier A and B too.

I'm also interested in an IDP league setup. If it's going to be a really deep league, it'd be cool to limit it from the standard D/DB/DL to just DB/DL or even just a D IMO.

edit: Keepers should be only for teams not getting promoted/relegated, at least for the second season (assuming the above). It keeps it simple.

Afterwards, the simple solution to follow would be to disallow keepers from Tier A entirely.

HiroProtagonist fucked around with this message at Dec 14, 2012 around 05:55

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


HiroProtagonist posted:

I'm in for this.

I'd be okay with a money league but for logistics I think it might be better if the inaugural season was a free one. Maximize interest, promote credibility, and all that. It'd give an easy way to distribute teams between tier A and B too.

I'm also interested in an IDP league setup. If it's going to be a really deep league, it'd be cool to limit it from the standard D/DB/DL to just DB/DL or even just a D IMO.

edit: Keepers should be only for teams not getting promoted/relegated, at least for the second season (assuming the above). It keeps it simple.

I agree on points 1 & 3. I could really go either way on point two, I get the appeal of only having D flex spots instead of actual roster positions, but if we're doing a point-per-tackle / .5/asst. tackle system, there's going to be A LOT of guys out there worth rostering, so I don't know if we really need to get rid of the positional restrictions. Plus, it's fun to make everyone roster a DL or two.

Zypher
Sep 3, 2009

Rutgers

Your 2006
Mythical National
Champions!


I've never played IDP before, so I would definitely need help/input with the setup if we go in that direction.

That said, I'm totally down for IDP. This league is not for the weak of stomach.

HiroProtagonist posted:

edit: Keepers should be only for teams not getting promoted/relegated, at least for the second season (assuming the above). It keeps it simple.

Afterwards, the simple solution to follow would be to disallow keepers from Tier A entirely.

My first instinct is to agree on the first point, but I thought maybe that would give newly promoted teams way too much of a disadvantage.

Not sure I follow on the second point. I would want to reward teams that stay in Tier A.

Zypher fucked around with this message at Dec 14, 2012 around 06:30

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


Zypher posted:

I've never played IDP before, so I would definitely need help/input with the setup if we go in that direction.

That said, I'm totally down for IDP. This league is not for the weak of stomach.

IDP=Tackles, tackles, tackles

Revis sucks, linebackers are the best

HiroProtagonist
May 7, 2007

This is an accurate representation of my current level of enjoyment.

IDP is easy and makes every week a lot more dynamic. That is to say, it makes it a lot more fun for nerds who like to scour stats and end up topping the league in total transactions.

IDP is in a nutshell all about averages. In the simplest terms, you probably want to look for the guys with the highest average solo tackles, and then from there find players with the highest sacks or int/TDs, depending on what you're going for. The latter is more situational and statistically oriented, in my experience. Generally I do the former and look for the sack-artists.

In general, DBs (this includes LBs, CBs, S, and everyone south of the line aside from the secondary) will be more explosive in terms of points than DLs (which is everyone on the line of scrimmage, or in other words: C/NT, DTs, and DEs) who you'll want to look for consistency in.

HiroProtagonist fucked around with this message at Dec 14, 2012 around 07:00

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


^^ e: I'd say the order of importance for IDP stat scouting are: tackles>>PD>>>Sacks>>INT>Fum>>>>TD

The system my league uses is pretty fair, it's mainly tackle dependent but will reward for turnovers. The best players are LBs and run-stopping corners/safeties on teams with bad offenses, bonus points if they are a returner.

Tackle: .85 (can be 1)
Asst.: .425 (can be .5)
Pass Defended: 1
Sack: 2.5
INT: 3.5
FFum: 3
FRec: 3
TD: 6
Safety: 4
Block: 3
TFL: .65 (makes a TFL worth 1.5 total, if making tackle worth 1, I'd make this .75)
Turnover Ret. Yards: 20/point


This will give you a top tier of IDPs (Washington, Mayo, Bowman, Briggs, etc.) getting ~160 points, and a whole bunch of guys over 100.

old dog child
May 21, 2008

are perry'd jokes still funny or did I just waste 10 bucks?


To be completely honest, it's not that I'm afraid of new things, it's that my platoon leader (who is winning several very expensive leagues) explained IDP in a way to me that made it sound dumb as well. He specifically told me that IDP was the dumbest possible thing I could do in the army...

And I also have no idea how D lines are supposed to work, but it would be pretty fun to learn how they work.

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


We can make each position a roster spot (S, CB, LB, DE, DT) but the preferred way is just a simple DB, DL, LB. DB encompasses S and CB, DL is both DE and DT.


My league uses DBx3, LBx3, DL, and D flex

Zypher
Sep 3, 2009

Rutgers

Your 2006
Mythical National
Champions!


Seeing as we already have 12-15 people interested, this definitely looks like it will be feasible.

Let's do two tiers for 12 teams for the first year. Once we have 24 people interested, those 24 will have first priority once the league is setup (and I'll keep a waitlist in case we have any drop outs, etc).

For offense, let's keep the standard QB, 2 RB, 2 WR, TE, FLEX setup.

Still up for debate:
  • Money? No one has spoken against it being a money league yet
  • IDP? Interest so far is leaning towards IDP, but I want to leave this up for debate a little while longer
  • PPR? I prefer 0.5 PPR
  • How to separate Tier A and Tier B in first season? More below

We've had a couple of ideas for separating Tier A and B, so I'm going to recap them really quick.

Random
Self explanatory. Quick, painless, and somewhat fair.

Chronological
The first twelve people who chimed in/paid dues in Tier A. Next twelve in Tier B. Also pretty painless, but a little less fair. But it guarantees Zypher a spot in Tier A for at least one season!

Season performance of the entire Tier
Randomly split everyone into two tiers to start the season. At the end of the season, the Tier with the most Points For over the course of the entire season becomes Tier A. This seems more fair to me (the teams that would be most adversely affected, the top teams of the lower scoring Tier, get promoted at the end of the season anyway).

Top half from each tier
Treat year one as a placement year, and worry about keepers starting year two. Pretty drat fair, but it kind of sucks to delay the keeper aspect of GoonTier for another year

Pre-draft keeper-only auction draft between all of the players claimed as kept between the two leagues
Could be really interesting, but it sounds very complicated to me.

Darkspider's one league idea (in quote below)

Am I missing any?

Faltese Malkin posted:

If we did keepers, would there be a way to benefit a team transferring from one tier to the next? Maybe you don't have any players to keep, but you get the first pick (or maybe supplemental picks)
I like this idea. I don't want teams that move tiers to be left completely in the cold, so something like this would be nice to give them something to build from.

darkspider42 posted:

Here's a crazy idea, keep the player pool the same across both leagues but have very small rosters (QB,RB,WR,TE,FLEX, IDPs?) and only a few bench spots (2 or 3) to force alot of churn. We should be able to accomplish this via divisions on ESPN and do one massive draft and only play interdivision and have a champ on champ matchup in week 17. Crazy idea but could be interesting.
This would actually solve one of the bigger problems I'm trying to figure out: how to be commissioner for both leagues but only have a team in one league. Other than having someone volunteer as commissioner in the Tier that I'm not in.

That said, I would prefer regular sized rosters. I was in a 20 team pubbie league this season, and my experience has soured me on anything with extremely limited player pools.

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007


Just to throw in my votes:

Money? Anything under $50 would be fine
IDP? Yes (but I don't feel that strongly about it either way)
PPR? 0.5 sounds fine

And I like the season performance idea for deciding the tiers. Commish wise you could get a volunteer from whichever tier you aren't in to run the other, and you handle disputes.

yoyodyne
May 7, 2007


I'd be interested, provided that the fee was fairly small. I like the idea of small rosters for a big league like this. I'm also fine with pretty much any reasonable scoring setup.

Obama Yo Mama
Jun 19, 2004

What about the NLCS?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT

DO NOT GO TO THE NLCS


Zypher posted:

This would actually solve one of the bigger problems I'm trying to figure out: how to be commissioner for both leagues but only have a team in one league. Other than having someone volunteer as commissioner in the Tier that I'm not in.

If it's a Yahoo league, you can just create both leagues, and then just make someone a co-manager of whichever team is in the league you're not and hand control of the roster operations over to them.

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007


yoyodyne posted:

I'd be interested, provided that the fee was fairly small. I like the idea of small rosters for a big league like this. I'm also fine with pretty much any reasonable scoring setup.

Realistically the league isn't that big: just a 12 team. Any bigger and smaller rosters are nice just so there are players available, but 12 is still doable with decent benches. The only thought I'd have with an idp league is maybe have offensive/ defensive bench splits so people don't just roster 13 RB

Boywunda
Jun 25, 2003



  • Money? Sure, $20 is a nice average number.
  • IDP? Definitely!! I like OYM's point system he uses, it's similar to the point system that I use.
  • PPR? I also prefer 0.5 PPR
  • How to separate Tier A and Tier B in first season?

quote:

Season performance of the entire Tier
Randomly split everyone into two tiers to start the season. At the end of the season, the Tier with the most Points For over the course of the entire season becomes Tier A. This seems more fair to me (the teams that would be most adversely affected, the top teams of the lower scoring Tier, get promoted at the end of the season anyway).

While I like it to be performance based and random, what if the best league in Tier B had most points overall...why should he be relegated to Tier B, when he was actually the highest scoring team. Couldn't we still take the top of both tiers, make it Tier A and still keep keepers? I don't see why not.

LmaoTheKid
Oct 7, 2002

BA-DAH-DAH-DAH-DAHHH I'M LOVIN' IT


I have no idea what's going on but I want to play in some wacky league so count me in if there's room.

I'm down for money up to 50$, would consider 100.

Master Stur
Jun 13, 2008

Rush'n Attack: Ex-Patriot


I'd like to get in on this and have no personal preference as to the rules or entry fee one way or another, whatever everyone thinks is fun is good for me.

Barehanded Brother
Feb 12, 2007

When you have a Hammer, everything looks like a nail.


After beating up on Trad Games goons two years running, I guess it's time to move on up to the big leagues. I'm interested in a keeper league.

  • $20 or under seems reasonable to me. No need to get too high-stakes.
  • I'd prefer no IDP; to me, defensive stats are kind of arbitrary compared to offensive stats
  • PPR I'm good with

I'm leaning toward darkspider's idea of a small-roster 1-league, 2-division idea.

Otherwise, whoever gets promoted from Tier B will almost undoubtedly have to start all over, since presumably the players who won him Tier B will be owned by players who did well in Tier A. The player pool they'll get to pick from will be rookies and players from the team(s) who got relegated, who will presumably be put in the draft and then have to compete with the other Tier A teams to select. Then, all their good players who they had to leave behind in Tier B will be the pool that the relegated teams from Tier A will get to pick from, giving them an advantage over the rest of Tier B. It seems like the only things that would change (barring excellent rookie drafting and performance) would be the same teams that swap from Tier A to Tier B from year to year.

One way to solve this problem (potentially) is to make Tier A a keeper league and Tier B a standard league, and have whoever gets promoted simply take over the roster of the relegated manager. That way relegated managers don't get an advantage, and promoted managers don't get as screwed by the supplemental draft.

dalstrs
Mar 11, 2004

At least this way my kill will have some use

IDP and all the other stuff sounds great. I still don't see any way where keepers works without giving moving teams a disadvantage unless it is one large player pool for both leagues. (with the small benches or w/e). Maybe instead of stud keepers we could do project keepers. You can pick 1 or 2 guys that would likely have scored less than a certain amount the previous season. It would give a small advantage to teams staying where they are, but also not an insurmountable disadvantage to moving teams.

Also how would money be handled. each league has to pay there winners otherwise people in league 2 have no incentive to pay for that season. I was thinking a different buy in for to and bottom tier. It could be a good way to split the divisions to start, those that want to play with less money start in tier 2, and if they win, part of the winnings pay for the higher fee moving to the higher league.

SharkTattoos
Sep 5, 2006

Sun Times reports lovable losers sign Murray to 5 year - 3 movie deal

I'm very interested in a tiered league.

Our main work league is like this with a Varsity, JV, and intro leagues and you can get promoted / demoted based on both performance and participation.

jabro
Mar 25, 2003


Kobra Kommandant


- Superbowl XXXV -
Ravens 35, Giants 7


This sounds interesting. I am in.

Zypher
Sep 3, 2009

Rutgers

Your 2006
Mythical National
Champions!


Boywunda posted:

While I like it to be performance based and random, what if the best league in Tier B had most points overall...why should he be relegated to Tier B, when he was actually the highest scoring team. Couldn't we still take the top of both tiers, make it Tier A and still keep keepers? I don't see why not.

I get your point, but you can also make the argument that the winner of the league that scored the least amount of points played against weaker competition.

Barehanded Brother posted:

I'm leaning toward darkspider's idea of a small-roster 1-league, 2-division idea.

Otherwise, whoever gets promoted from Tier B will almost undoubtedly have to start all over, since presumably the players who won him Tier B will be owned by players who did well in Tier A. The player pool they'll get to pick from will be rookies and players from the team(s) who got relegated, who will presumably be put in the draft and then have to compete with the other Tier A teams to select. Then, all their good players who they had to leave behind in Tier B will be the pool that the relegated teams from Tier A will get to pick from, giving them an advantage over the rest of Tier B. It seems like the only things that would change (barring excellent rookie drafting and performance) would be the same teams that swap from Tier A to Tier B from year to year.

One way to solve this problem (potentially) is to make Tier A a keeper league and Tier B a standard league, and have whoever gets promoted simply take over the roster of the relegated manager. That way relegated managers don't get an advantage, and promoted managers don't get as screwed by the supplemental draft.

dalstrs posted:

I still don't see any way where keepers works without giving moving teams a disadvantage unless it is one large player pool for both leagues. (with the small benches or w/e). Maybe instead of stud keepers we could do project keepers. You can pick 1 or 2 guys that would likely have scored less than a certain amount the previous season. It would give a small advantage to teams staying where they are, but also not an insurmountable disadvantage to moving teams.

In regards to keeping it competitive and giving newly promoted/relegated teams a chance in their new tiers, how about this:

  • The players of relegated teams get dumped back into the player pool
  • Your first keeper costs you a 1st round pick, second keeper a 2nd round pick, etc
  • The teams moving into a new tier get first pick in the draft. The rest is reverse order of finish
  • The draft does not snake

So, if three teams were promoted/relegated, your draft order for the two tiers would look like this:

Tier A
1: 1st place Tier B
2: 2nd place Tier B
3: 3rd place Tier B
4: 9th place Tier A
5: 8th place Tier A
etc, etc

Tier B
1: 10th place Tier A
2: 11th place Tier A
3: 12th place Tier A
4: 12th place Tier B
5: 11th place Tier B
etc, etc

Again, draft would not snake. That gives teams that performed poorly a better shot at improving. Usually the huge downside of not drafting snake is that teams will try to tank at the end of the season to get a better draft pick. With the relegation system in place, however, it limits your incentive to tank.

dalstrs posted:

Also how would money be handled. each league has to pay there winners otherwise people in league 2 have no incentive to pay for that season. I was thinking a different buy in for to and bottom tier. It could be a good way to split the divisions to start, those that want to play with less money start in tier 2, and if they win, part of the winnings pay for the higher fee moving to the higher league.

Yeah, each tier's winners would get paid. Tier A won't be stealing from Tier B's winnings.

Zypher fucked around with this message at Dec 14, 2012 around 20:07

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Zypher
Sep 3, 2009

Rutgers

Your 2006
Mythical National
Champions!


Barehanded Brother posted:

One way to solve this problem (potentially) is to make Tier A a keeper league and Tier B a standard league, and have whoever gets promoted simply take over the roster of the relegated manager. That way relegated managers don't get an advantage, and promoted managers don't get as screwed by the supplemental draft.

This is actually kind of how the league that inspired this league works.

Tier A: Keeper (four teams get relegated)
Tier B: Keeper (four teams get promoted, four teams get relegated)
Tier C: Two redraft leagues. Top two teams of each league get promoted

I would be OK with the bottom tier being a redraft league.

--

I don't necessarily like having promoted managers taking over relegated managers rosters, however. How do you decide which team gets which roster? Being saddled with the poor choices someone else made seems worse to me than getting first choice of the (albeit limited) player pool.

Making it expensive to retain keepers, however, would help keep the player pool somewhat interesting. Plus the teams that got relegated are sure to have a stud or two.

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