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I'd actually almost prefer moving on from Garrett and having a new character as long as it was set in the same world and not some goofy reboot. I feel like Garrett's story was over after Thief 3, and I'd have been happy to see a fresh character (as long as it wasn't Lara Croft in leather). EDIT: I hope we didn't lose the art deco style. It'd be pretty dull to go back to bog standard medieval.
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Mar 5, 2013 21:40
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The greatest crime will be that the audio isn't being directed by Eric Brosius. That won't matter much if the tone will be as radically different as it is being assumed.
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Mar 5, 2013 21:43
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Fintilgin posted:I'd actually almost prefer moving on from Garrett and having a new character as long as it was set in the same world and not some goofy reboot. I feel like Garrett's story was over after Thief 3, and I'd have been happy to see a fresh character (as long as it wasn't Lara Croft in leather). I can't see how anyone could look at the ending of Thief 3 and think for one second that after that Garrett would go back to being a thief. It's one of the very few game trilogy endings that ties things up so neatly that there is no need for anything else to be done with the story.
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Mar 5, 2013 21:43
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Fintilgin posted:I'd actually almost prefer moving on from Garrett and having a new character as long as it was set in the same world and not some goofy reboot. I feel like Garrett's story was over after Thief 3, and I'd have been happy to see a fresh character (as long as it wasn't Lara Croft in leather). I'm more than fine with a reboot. Thief 1 through 3 did have a great story arc that was completed as well as video games can complete them. Thief 3 was a great ending to the series, even if it had an overall weaker story (and was a far weaker game than its predecessors). A new Garrett in revamped City sounds great to me, but I just don't want the Hammerites or the Pagans. Remake the lore but keep its foundations right.
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Mar 5, 2013 21:43
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I always sort of suspected the creepy Keeper girl was being set up to reject Garrett and the Keepers the way Garrett had rejected them when he was young, and become the new protagonist of Thief 4. A little cliche, but it would be a nice mirror and there could have been a few (subtle) cameos showing Garrett watching out for his erstwhile protegee.
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Mar 5, 2013 21:49
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So yeah, the article makes no mentions of the Hammerites not being in there anymore, I certainly hope they're kept along with the pagans.Fintilgin posted:I always sort of suspected the creepy Keeper girl was being set up to reject Garrett and the Keepers the way Garrett had rejected them when he was young, and become the new protagonist of Thief 4. A little cliche, but it would be a nice mirror and there could have been a few (subtle) cameos showing Garrett watching out for his erstwhile protegee. Garrett was the last (and one true) keeper, every other keeper lost their magical powers when Garrett did that sealing thing at the end of the third game. I suppose there could theoretically be a fourth Thief game where we play as the girl that learned from Garrett on thief tricks, maybe trying to end the Hammerite religion or something. But I feel like the three games were a perfect beginning, middle and end to that version of the city, and a reboot was in order.
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Mar 5, 2013 21:54
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SNARF SNARF SNARF posted:Garrett was the last (and one true) keeper, every other keeper lost their magical powers when Garrett did that sealing thing at the end of the third game. Oh? Huh. I thought the whole plot of 3 was pretty blah, so I didn't really remember that bit. I wouldn't mind a 'reboot' so much if it was closer to a 'remake', but 'reboot' meaning "let's completely change the universe and make Thief: Assassin's Creed" leaves me cold.
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Mar 5, 2013 22:22
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Fintilgin posted:I'd actually almost prefer moving on from Garrett and having a new character as long as it was set in the same world and not some goofy reboot. I feel like Garrett's story was over after Thief 3, and I'd have been happy to see a fresh character (as long as it wasn't Lara Croft in leather). I wouldn't even mind if we kept Garrett but played him in his slightly older years, he'll be less spry but still has all the old tricks to maintain the pace of the previous games (If Solid Snake can do it, anyone else can damnit). I've not played Deadly Shadows but it seems the plot kinda takes the wind out of this.
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Mar 5, 2013 22:29
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I always felt the plot to 3 felt kinda fan fictiony, especially with some if the more over the top stuff near the end. The pagans, for example, were atrociously written.
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Mar 5, 2013 22:50
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Fintilgin posted:I always felt the plot to 3 felt kinda fan fictiony, especially with some if the more over the top stuff near the end. The pagans were pretty different I agree, but the game wasn't terrible. Recently got done re-watching Bobbin Threadbare's lp of it and I still think that, while not as good as the others, it was still a decent Thief game. The level design, especially the Cradle and the Museum, was great.
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Mar 5, 2013 22:57
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Never played much of 1 or 2 but loved 3. Time to play it again for sure.
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Mar 5, 2013 22:59
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Yeah, it was decent, even if the first two games were head and shoulders above it. I just didn't like the story or main antagonist much.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:01
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Fintilgin posted:I wouldn't mind a 'reboot' so much if it was closer to a 'remake', but 'reboot' meaning "let's completely change the universe and make Thief: Assassin's Creed" leaves me cold. "Thief's Creed: Human Revolution"  What the f is this? How is it true to roots when it's so much about fighting?
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Mar 5, 2013 23:05
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So basically the game has VATS. VATS. In a Thief game. Did I drop shrooms for breakfast? What the gently caress.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:09
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The combat in all the previous games was absolute dog poo poo, and that honestly sounds miles better. As long as you're not forced into combat and it's almost impossible to win against more than a couple of guards at the same time, the combat part in that article honestly sounds almost good to me.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:10
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"We want you to play as a thief, but we don't want to force you to play as a thief." I'm all for gameplay choices but the name of the game is Thief. If you do not want to play as a Thief, why would you buy the game in the first place? e: I do think that combat system sounds a little weird and possibly fun, but I haven't played any of the previous Thief games. That quote just struck me as amusing. Geight fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Mar 5, 2013 |
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Mar 5, 2013 23:11
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Sniper Party posted:The combat in all the previous games was absolute dog poo poo, and that honestly sounds miles better. As long as you're not forced into combat and it's almost impossible to win against more than a couple of guards at the same time, the combat part in that article honestly sounds almost good to me. The combat was supposed to be dogshit. It was a game about sneaking and stealing stuff.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:12
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Geight posted:"We want you to play as a thief, but we don't want to force you to play as a thief." In the other games you sort of waved your arm around and hit dudes in the side with your sword or something. Sometimes you were supposed to parry? It was awkward and completely awful, and the game was much more enjoyable if you just pretended that Garret didn't even have a sword for as long as possible. Fruits of the sea posted:The combat was supposed to be dogshit. It was a game about sneaking and stealing stuff. Wow, this is some pretty impressive rationalizing for what was a completely garbage combat system.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:16
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Geight posted:e: I do think that combat system sounds a little weird but possibly fun, but I haven't played any of the previous Thief games. That quote just struck me as amusing. One of the things about the Thief games was that Garret was pretty poo poo at actually fighting against things. I think it was originally an engine limitation but it gave them an excuse to encourage avoidance and stuff. It's kinda a Thief thing that combat will more than likely result in your death so I can see people getting a little miffed about it, but with how little we've heard about the actual game I'm saying that it's better to reserve judgement until such time as we know more.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:16
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Fruits of the sea posted:The combat was supposed to be dogshit. It was a game about sneaking and stealing stuff.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:17
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As long as I have the option to avoid combat I have no problem with combat being improved. I know we all like to think of Garrett as a ghost but remember that the into movie to the first game has him putting an arrow in a guard's throat.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:19
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Geight posted:"We want you to play as a thief, but we don't want to force you to play as a thief." This is like the post I was going to make, but I have played all of the previous Thief games - multiple times - Thief: The Dark Project is my favorite game of all time. This is stupid as hell. The name of the game is Thief. That's the play experience. Nobody is going to buy the game thinking otherwise. I can't wait until game designers grow the gently caress out of this "press button = AWESOME poo poo! PLAYER EMPOWERMENT YEAH", it's killing certain types of games. I'm all for limited offense, but the Prototypical Thief should not be a friggin' martial artist badass on autopilot, which is exactly what this system implies. Congratulations, Eidos, you've totally destroyed any interest I had in this product with one preview. Way to go. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Mar 5, 2013 |
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Mar 5, 2013 23:20
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Dishonored allowed you to very easily slaughter your way through the game, but it was also very possible to play the game like you'd play the earlier Thief games if you didn't want to. It all depends on how well done the level design is. Deus Ex: HR is pretty good at both allowing you to sneak through the place or just letting you gun down everything too, so I'm not too worried about this turning into Call of Duty: Thief 4. The only thing slightly worrying is the boss battles from Deus Ex: HR really, though I think the Missing Link DLC shows they learned from the negative reaction those had.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:23
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So in the previous games, there's areas where you're encountering undead and/or monsters, right? Are those forced combat areas, or do you sneak past those things too? The Thief series has always been on my "games I simply have to play" list but the problem is I've got a lot of other games on that list and they've already been purchased at some point or another.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:25
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:This is like the post I was going to make, but I have played all of the previous Thief games - multiple times - Thief: The Dark Project is my favorite game of all time. This is stupid as hell. Did you actually read that article, at all? Garret is significantly less badass in the example they gave than in any of the Thief games. He doesn't even kill the guard he fought. He doesn't even have a sword. It's mentioned that the Focus ability is mostly used to push past guards to escape into cover, not fight them. It also mentions that doing what they did, i.e. actually incapacitating a guard in a fight, uses a significant amount of focus, so the player would not be able to take on multiple opponents, which is something you could do in Thief.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:25
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Giggily posted:Garret is significantly less badass in the example they gave than in any of the Thief games. He doesn't even kill the guard he fought. He doesn't even have a sword. It's mentioned that the Focus ability is mostly used to push past guards to escape into cover, not fight them. It also mentions that doing what they did, i.e. actually incapacitating a guard in a fight, uses a significant amount of focus, so the player would not be able to take on multiple opponents, which is something you could do in Thief. Uhh, you're taking a lot of liberties with the source material just to prove a point. The magazine describes Garrett chucking a smoke bomb, crushing two guards to death with a chandelier and then going into a slow motion focus mode to perform a chain attack on a guard, breaking bones in the process. The attack is explicitly compared to the brawls in the recent Sherlock Holmes films. That's fairly badass.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:30
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Sniper Party posted:There's a difference between you, as a character, being weak in combat, and the combat being such an un-fun slog that you'd rather just savescum than attempt to defend yourself.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:30
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Giggily posted:Did you actually read that article, at all? Garret is significantly less badass in the example they gave than in any of the Thief games. He doesn't even kill the guard he fought. He doesn't even have a sword. It's mentioned that the Focus ability is mostly used to push past guards to escape into cover, not fight them. It also mentions that doing what they did, i.e. actually incapacitating a guard in a fight, uses a significant amount of focus, so the player would not be able to take on multiple opponents, which is something you could do in Thief. This system is absolutely going to be regenerating and totally gameable, in the same way that Adam Jensen's knockouts were in DE:HR. I would much rather have anything other than "click one time to incapacitate for 5 seconds, click twice to incapacitate permanently and noisily, click three times to incapacitate permanently and noiselessly" which is exactly what this system is going to be. Oh but it has cool Sherlock Holmes QTEs! Wow, really innovative stuff, ripping off poo poo you saw in somewhere else and sticking it into your game. That pretty much sums up that whole development team's attitude. Put this real bow we had made into the game! Put this scene from a movie into the game! Blah blah blah let's reduce a really cool world to a pastiche of poo poo we lifted from somewhere else. Really exciting stuff. Why even call it Thief?
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Mar 5, 2013 23:30
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Tecman posted:So far I've only found the "No undead" portion: "Eidos was vague about how faithful it would remain to Thief's original lore, but did say that it would tone down many of the series' magical elements. Players won't likely encounter undead monsters or prowling dinosaurs as they did in the early Thief titles." Is that Eidos saying that last part, though, or is it the writer of the article making conjectures? Actually reading what the devs say makes it seem not as terrible as the first info would suggest. As long as it is possible to play stealthily and the maps are fairly open it could be good. The maps would have to be more open and larger than DX:HR. How were they in Dishonored? This game seems very inspired by those two games. It certainly doesn't give off that Thief vibe, at least. This in particular had me laughing:  "The scar across his face represents that Garrett's past has left som long-lasting effects on his life" DARK and DEEP
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Mar 5, 2013 23:33
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I actually found the sword fighting in the first two games to be kind of fun even though it was meant to be used as a last resort. It let you parry blows and swing from different directions, which was surprisingly challenging, but allowed you to battle your way through most of the game if you so wished. Hell, dueling one of the haunts was an absolute blast. Having said that, I can't say I like the sound of this new combat system an awful lot; it sounds like they're trying to find a compromise between the first two games' elaborate sword fighting and the third game's non-existent combat, with some of Deus Ex HR's take-down system sprinkled in. I guess we'll need gameplay footage to see what they're really trying to do here. I'm kinda optimistic though, because Eidos Montreal's Deus Ex HR sounded absolutely awful at first, but eventually wound up surpassing the original Deus Ex. Yeah, that's right, I said it gently caress you 
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Mar 5, 2013 23:33
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Rime posted:
Actually he worked on Chaos Theory. He's not credited in Conviction.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:35
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Geight posted:So in the previous games, there's areas where you're encountering undead and/or monsters, right? Are those forced combat areas, or do you sneak past those things too? You could sneak by all the supernatural monsters although zombies had a tendency to wander and turn up unpredictably. They also couldn't be knocked out by a blackjack and would get up after being killed (unless holy water was used), although their slow movement meant you could take them down them in a number of ways so long as you had space to maneuver. There's no forced combat in the first two games at all, although the missions are designed assuming you don't mind knocking out the occasional guard. Even that's optional, although a pain in the rear end if you're a beginner. Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Mar 5, 2013 |
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Mar 5, 2013 23:36
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Fruits of the sea posted:Uhh, you're taking a lot of liberties with the source material just to prove a point. The magazine describes Garrett chucking a smoke bomb, crushing two guards to death with a chandelier and then going into a slow motion focus mode to perform a chain attack on a guard, breaking bones in the process. The attack is explicitly compared to the brawls in the recent Sherlock Holmes films. You fight steampunk robots, dinosaurs, zombies, and magical demons in the other Thief games and actually kill some of them in hand to hand combat. It seems about the same level of ridiculous to me, just flashier. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:This system is absolutely going to be regenerating and totally gameable, in the same way that Adam Jensen's knockouts were in DE:HR. I would much rather have anything other than "click one time to incapacitate for 5 seconds, click twice to incapacitate permanently and noisily, click three times to incapacitate permanently and noiselessly" which is exactly what this system is going to be. The actual article posted:While in combat, Focus displays a number of attack points on Garrett's enemies. garrett can select one of these points, the chest for example, and do a quick push that buys him some time to dash off into the shadows. Alternatively he can string together a number of these points, which uses more Focus, and perform a more debilitating attack. Uh huh. It might also upset you to know that they also slightly changed the costuming in this game. 
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Mar 5, 2013 23:42
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Oh I also want to say: eat a dick, lead developer, for this passage: "Some of the early concept stuff had Garret a little too soft in his approach...I had a lot of problems in the early focus tests because I had turned his movements up too much toward the female spectrum." What an rear end in a top hat. The dude is supposed to be stealthy, that means moving delicately and gingerly sometimes. These developers literally grabbed a game where precision and delicacy are emphasized and dumped on it as being too "feminine". I really don't understand the modern game developer's obsession with taking serviceable niche franchises and trying to convert them into smash successes by destroying everything unique about them. The article posted:While in combat, Focus displays a number of attack points on Garrett's enemies. Garrett can select one of these points, the chest for example, and do a quick push that buys him some time to dash off into the shadows. Alternatively he can string together a number of these points, which uses more Focus, and perform a more debilitating attack. When you take away the fancy "Sherlock Holmes" animations, it's going to equal More Clicks = More Incapacitating, and a certain number of the points will regenerate because that's an idea that they can steal from Deus Ex (and these guys have demonstrated that they're not exactly fonts of creativity). Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Mar 5, 2013 |
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Mar 5, 2013 23:43
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One good improvement that Thief 3 brought to the series was the concept of a more fleshed out escape system in the event of getting caught. Combat of course should be the very last resort for the player and should usually mean death but a stealth game really needs something to sit in between the state of being hidden from enemies and from being detected and having your finger on the quick load. To my mind combat in a game like Thief should be a battle between heavily armed guards and a quick witted protagonist armed with the tools and gadgets to outwit and evade his enemies, not to kill or maim.Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Oh I also want to say: eat a dick, lead developer, for this passage: Yeah that whole passage in the article didn't endear me to him in the slightest. I had assumed this game was being developed by the Human Revolution team. Was I wrong to think that?
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Mar 5, 2013 23:49
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Rime posted:So far, Game Informer has confirmed: Okay, that's got to be a loving joke. How in the hell would you even take Hammerites out and still be able to call it the same world? Maybe it takes place in a different city than "The City," or something because that's all I can think they'd do and still be able to say it's in the same game franchise.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:55
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Oh I also want to say: eat a dick, lead developer, for this passage: When I first read that quote I thought, "No way, is he really saying what I think he is saying?" Worse, Mr. "female spectrum" is Steven Gallagher, the narrative director The article claims Gallagher "worked on films like Entrapment and Gladiator" but the IMDB credits list does not seem to make mention of him. An uncredited assistant perhaps? bedpan fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 5, 2013 23:56
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I dunno, could mean he had Garret swinging his hips which would look pretty ridiculous on a man no matter what. 
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Mar 5, 2013 23:58
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:When you take away the fancy "Sherlock Holmes" animations, it's going to equal More Clicks = More Incapacitating, and a certain number of the points will regenerate because that's an idea that they can steal from Deus Ex (and these guys have demonstrated that they're not exactly fonts of creativity). You know, I'll let you quote me on this one, but I think some games other than Deus Ex might have used regenerating energy bars. Also yes, the idea is that the player doesn't really fight enemies, they can just knock them out like that if they really want to. But you can't do it in a fight because you have limited energy. The article specifically mentions that the player will not be able to take three or four guards in a fight. The system is intended to allow the player to push one out of the way, or incapacitate them, in order to better facilitate an escape. That seems way more Thiefy to me than busting out your sword and murdering some dudes. On this note, someone half quoted a passage earlier to make it look like EIDOS IS MURDERING THIEF  , and then I actually went back and looked at what the rest of it said.quote:"We have worked very hard to give you the tools to protect yourself," Roy says. "Ten to fifteen years ago, you'd have to watch the guards patrol and wait for the moment to move. If the guards saw you, it wasn't really game over, but it was almost like you might as well juts press the reset button. The big difference today is that players don't want to play the same sections over and over again. Our job is really to make it so that when you are seen you have options to move through or stumble the guards and then jump back in the shadows." Okay, so they're designing combat this time to make it so that the player can't beat groups of guards in straight up fights, and to make it so that the player isn't facing an automatic lose situation in the situation where they actually are cornered by them. It's more like a system to facilitate the player's escape from the guards and the continuation of the stealth gameplay, rather than ham fisting in a lovely combat system like Thief 1 and 2. I really didn't like the combat in Thief 1 and 2. I thought it was out of place in regard to the rest of the game. This system seems significantly better - as in, completely streamlined, barely combat, the entire point of which is to allow the player to return to the stealth gameplay by avoiding confrontations with guards. bedpan posted:When I first read that quote I thought, "No way, is he really saying what I think he is saying?" While his wording was really sexist, he does mention that it was done as a response to focus testing, not necessarily his own tastes.
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Mar 5, 2013 23:59
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poptart_fairy posted:I dunno, could mean he had Garret swinging his hips which would look pretty ridiculous on a man no matter what. I was going to say, we don't really know what the guy even meant by that comment. If it was something like that, then yeah it'd definitely look ridiculous to see a man doing it.
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Mar 6, 2013 00:02
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