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Welcome earthlings to the Awful Book of the Month! In this thread, we choose one work of Resources: TBB IRC chat channel! - #tbb at synirc.org will be the standard channel for offtopic and pretty much anything but talking about books. (You know how irc topics are.) Anyone is welcome to start a chat at any time, but don't despair if no one answers immediately. Just hang in there, or it'll be a revolving door of "Hi", silence, etc. Idle wars are tough to break. Project Gutenberg - http://www.gutenberg.org - A database of over 17000 books available online. If you can suggest books from here, that'd be the best. SparkNotes - http://www.sparknotes.com/ - A very helpful Cliffnotes-esque site, but much better, in my opinion. If you happen to come in late and need to catch-up, you can get great character/chapter/plot summaries here. Contact Stuff: PM LooseChanj Email: LooseChanj@somethingawful.com  For recommendations on future material, suggestions on how to improve the club, or just a general rant, feel free to PM me. Past Books of the Month 2011: January: John Keats, Endymion Febuary/March: Miguel Cervantes, Don Quixote April: Laurell K. Hamilton, Obsidian Butterfly May: Richard A. Knaak - Diablo #1: Legacy of Blood June: Pamela Britton - On The Move July: Raymond Chandler - The Big Sleep August: Louis L'Amour - Bendigo Shafter September: Ian Fleming - Moonraker October: Ray Bradbury - Something Wicked This Way Comes November: John Ringo - Ghost December: James Branch Cabell - Jurgen 2012: January: G.K. Chesterton - The Man Who Was Thursday Febuary: M. Somerset Maugham - Of Human Bondage March: Joseph Heller - Catch-22 April: Zack Parsons - Liminal States May: Haruki Murakami - Norwegian Wood June: James Joyce - Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man July: William S. Burroughs - Naked Lunch August: William Faulkner - The Sound & The Fury September/October: Leo Tolstoy - War & Peace November: David Mitchell - Cloud Atlas December: Kurt Vonnegut - Mother Night Current: January: Walter M. Miller - A Canticle for Liebowitz  Wiki Brief: wikipedia.com posted:A Canticle for Leibowitz is a post-apocalyptic science fiction novel by American writer Walter M. Miller, Jr., first published in 1960. Set in a Catholic monastery in the desert of the southwestern United States after a devastating nuclear war, the story spans thousands of years as civilization rebuilds itself. The monks of the fictional Albertian Order of Leibowitz take up the mission of preserving the surviving remnants of man's scientific knowledge until the day the outside world is again ready for it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canticle_for_Leibowitz Discussion: Discussion will start now! Nah I'm kidding. It starts as soon as you get the book. Pestering your friends to read it too can start immediately though. You are certainly more than welcome to read at a comfortable pace, just, for the love of all that is good and right, if there's a jaw dropping plot twist don't spoil it for the others! ('Rosebud' is the name of his sled, Darth Vader is Luke's father, The narrator *IS* Tyler Durden, etc.) If you have any suggestions to change, improve or assess the book club, please email me. All suggestions, compliments and criticism is welcome if it enables us to have a better discussion! It is strongly advised that you subscribe to this thread, so we can keep a discussion moving at a decent pace.
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| # ? Jan 1, 2013 23:53 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 22:00 |
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Off the back of the 2013 reading challenge I thought I'd participate in one of these, and then it turns out it's not available on Kindle? What gives? For something so popular you'd think they'd have worked something out with Amazon.
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| # ? Jan 2, 2013 01:58 |
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mirthdefect posted:Off the back of the 2013 reading challenge I thought I'd participate in one of these, and then it turns out it's not available on Kindle? What gives? For something so popular you'd think they'd have worked something out with Amazon. I was hoping to get the Kindle version too. After reading the overview, it sounds like something I'll want to get right into. Oh well, looks like I'll be stopping off at Half Price Books on my way home from work tomorrow. If I can find a copy from the 60s or 70s, it might only cost me $1 or so.
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| # ? Jan 2, 2013 04:41 |
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LooseChanj posted:Wiki Brief:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canticle_for_Leibowitz mirthdefect posted:it turns out it's not available on Kindle? What gives? Preserving the remnants of man's knowledge on a kindle?
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| # ? Jan 2, 2013 12:06 |
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bavarian posted:Preserving the remnants of man's knowledge on a kindle? Now I've got this picture in my head of dozens of monks crouching over, hitting next page buttons and copying furiously until batteries die.
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| # ? Jan 2, 2013 13:07 |
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So this book is Foundation fanfic right?
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| # ? Jan 2, 2013 20:22 |
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Oh poo poo yes, this is one of the absolute best novels I've ever read. It really breaks all notion of genre into little pieces. Don't go into it thinking you know what it will be like, or assuming anything. Just read it. Glad this is getting more attention, it's a classic in every sense of the word.
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| # ? Jan 3, 2013 02:35 |
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precision posted:Don't go into it thinking you know what it will be like, or assuming anything. Just read it. 
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| # ? Jan 3, 2013 02:38 |
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Talas posted:I read this a couple of weeks ago and that was the mistake I made I picked it up after a recc in the sci-fi thread and while I wasn't sure what to expect from it I wasn't disappointed in any way. I guess I'll re-read it to participate/contribute in the thread. One thing I would recommend to new readers is to pay attention to the description of the pilgrim in the first chapter because it seemed like a point of contention later on. It's an intriguing book that asks a lot of questions that it doesn't really answer. Also I guess there is a sequel. Extremely vague spoiler but spoiler nonetheless, did you think the repetition of painful questions to that daft monk was part of a theme of iteration? For those who are too curious or accidentally roll-over this I won't say what the iteration is, but it's painful. And 'Liebowitz' is misspelled in the thread title.
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| # ? Jan 3, 2013 04:16 |
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I'm down as hell for this. I haven't read a good traditional post-apocalyptic in a while. Like anyone really needs this particular thread to share the sticky joy of A Game of Bones anyway.syscall girl posted:
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| # ? Jan 3, 2013 07:01 |
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loving hell.
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| # ? Jan 3, 2013 07:23 |
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syscall girl posted:And 'Liebowitz' is misspelled in the thread title. Is not.  I'm about a 1/3 of the way in, and I've managed to forget so much it's like reading it again for the first time. I just got past the part where Francis is robbed of his illuminated copy, and drat what a kick in the nuts.
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| # ? Jan 3, 2013 14:06 |
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I really felt disappointed in this book. Events always felt inevitable, and there was really no sense that any of the characters were important. We'll rediscover the lost knowledge, we'll use it in the same ways, humanity doesn't change. But you can still have a story with those elements and have some interesting characters. It really felt like the "theme" was more important than anything, and I don't really like that in my stories. It's an interesting premise and the first section was particularly interesting in its exploration of how a religion might form after the end of civilization. I sort of wish the book had just stuck to that story instead of moving ahead.
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| # ? Jan 4, 2013 20:20 |
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This book has been on my shelf for a few years now, might as well read it.
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| # ? Jan 5, 2013 03:37 |
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casa de mi padre posted:I really felt disappointed in this book. Events always felt inevitable, and there was really no sense that any of the characters were important. We'll rediscover the lost knowledge, we'll use it in the same ways, humanity doesn't change. But you can still have a story with those elements and have some interesting characters. It really felt like the "theme" was more important than anything, and I don't really like that in my stories. Walter Miller was an incredibly serious Catholic, who partially wrote it to explore just why he had lapsed and given up on religion. I think the events feel inevitable on purpose, he's showing nihilism as a counterpoint to faith, which is especially interesting to me considering his suicide some years later. There absolutely are plenty of interesting characters, and it has a Cloud Atlasey feel to how the different archetypes survive through generations. I've probably read this every 2 years or so for the last 10 years, and I always get a little more out of it. Also, consider that there not being a sense of any one.character's importance was deliberate; no one is a hero in the book, heroes don't exist. This especially driven home when we find out pretty early on that St. Liebowitz was just some dude that made transistors in the war, basically, no one incredibly special. You kinda get the sense that he's the books Einstein, but he's really not.. Quad fucked around with this message at Jan 6, 2013 around 11:00 |
| # ? Jan 6, 2013 10:54 |
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Going to start reading it on my way home today!
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| # ? Jan 7, 2013 21:11 |
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Finished section 2 today, moving on to 3. Picking up lots of stuff I didn't the first time, for some reason I've been conflating the "Memorabilia" with the blueprint Brother Francis found.
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| # ? Jan 8, 2013 00:08 |
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Just out of curiosity (I don't read Awful Book of the Month that often) but are we spoilers off yet? I've read it before and am re-reading but I don't know where everyone else is.
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| # ? Jan 8, 2013 00:18 |
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I'm about 1/4 to 1/3 into it so please don't get too spoilerly just yet.
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| # ? Jan 8, 2013 00:34 |
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I got it from Amazon late last week, but just starting it tonight because I can't have two books going at the same time.
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| # ? Jan 8, 2013 03:22 |
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This has been on my shelf for a bit. I'll start it up this week, as soon as I finish the book I am already reading. I'm with you, jototo, I can't do two book sat the same time.
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| # ? Jan 8, 2013 08:11 |
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So when the "devils advocate" shows up to examine the evidence at the Abbey in order to oppose Liebowitz's canonization are the horns and fangs a product of brother Francis' imagination or a costume he wears?
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| # ? Jan 9, 2013 20:38 |
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Mr.48 posted:So when the "devils advocate" shows up to examine the evidence at the Abbey in order to oppose Liebowitz's canonization are the horns and fangs a product of brother Francis' imagination or a costume he wears? That was a bit ambiguous to me too. I came down on the side that they were imagined, given that he had quite a few fainting spells and bouts of delirium.
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| # ? Jan 9, 2013 21:50 |
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Cithen posted:That was a bit ambiguous to me too. I came down on the side that they were imagined, given that he had quite a few fainting spells and bouts of delirium. I thought it was a costume but I don't know much about post-apocalyptic catholicism.
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| # ? Jan 10, 2013 01:50 |
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3/4 through the book, goddamn this is some depressive poo poo. And I mean that in the best possible way.
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| # ? Jan 10, 2013 05:27 |
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Mr.48 posted:So when the "devils advocate" shows up to examine the evidence at the Abbey in order to oppose Liebowitz's canonization are the horns and fangs a product of brother Francis' imagination or a costume he wears? I pictured it as a costume/theatrics.
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| # ? Jan 10, 2013 06:16 |
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Finished the book last night. Had a hell of a time trying to fall asleep after that.
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| # ? Jan 10, 2013 18:09 |
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Mr.48 posted:So when the "devils advocate" shows up to examine the evidence at the Abbey in order to oppose Liebowitz's canonization are the horns and fangs a product of brother Francis' imagination or a costume he wears? It's intentionally ambiguous, according to a Literature prof. I once had anyway.
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| # ? Jan 10, 2013 19:54 |
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Awesome book. I loved the way it basically forces you to think about all the fundamental questions of existence, primarily "what's the loving point, when you really get down to it eh?". Post-apoc sci-fi is best when it moves beyond the survivalist escapism (granted, that is fun) and just makes you think. Also made me respect monks a little bit more.
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| # ? Jan 11, 2013 10:58 |
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A bit late to the party, but I just ordered the book in keeping with the "pledge" I, and hopefully others, made in the reading challenge thread to always read the Awful Book of the Month. Even though I rarely read science fiction, the themes in this book looks really interesting.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2013 11:16 |
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The book is very, very light on the science fiction.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2013 17:30 |
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Am I the only one who was bothered by the Old Man and Rachel? I usually don't mind some fantasy in a science fiction book, but this time, those elements of the novel really stuck out like a sore thumb for me.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2013 20:02 |
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Welp, just finished it. I felt like I saw the ending coming a mile away, and agree that Rachel and the Old Man were a little strange. Overall a pretty good book though.
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| # ? Jan 12, 2013 21:15 |
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pixelbaron posted:The book is very, very light on the science fiction. To the monks, the Memorabilia is almost like science fiction. But yeah, it seems more like fantasy than sci-fi when the world in the story is so primitive.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2013 03:17 |
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Talas posted:Am I the only one who was bothered by the Old Man and Rachel? I usually don't mind some fantasy in a science fiction book, but this time, those elements of the novel really stuck out like a sore thumb for me. I think that probably a bit of information will help with this. Miller converted to Catholicism shortly after WWII, he was in his 20's, and he drew on both history and Catholic traditions. While I haven't seen this in any of the "official" interpretations of CFL, it seems to me that the Old Man represents The Wandering Jew, whose legend became widely known among Christians during the Medieval period. I'm not sure if Miller was a student of history, but his biography mentions that he was deeply, deeply disturbed by his participating in the bombing of a Benedictine Abbey. I don't think it's a stretch to assume he did some studying on the subject. Something you should remember is that Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation did not occur until the very tail end of the Medieval era, so any Christian was also Catholic--(Yes, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church split, but the Benedictine Monks were Catholic, so I'm going to generally talk about Catholicism). What most people don't know is that the Catholic Church was an incredible civilizing force, especially in its early days. Later, as it gained wealth and power, the adage about power corrupting comes into play, but at the beginning of the Medieval Period, they did more good than you might realize. Rome had been invaded by the Goths. To the people of that era, this was a calamity akin to North Korea sailing in and sacking New York City. Most believed that the end of the world and the Second Coming of Christ were imminent. In an impulse sadly lacking in current-day Apocalypse believers, they took to heart the admonishments of Jesus, and did what they could to improve things to prepare for Christ's return. Although the Second Coming didn't happen after all, the Church continued its tradition of good works. During the Medieval period, often the only person in a small town or village who could read was the priest, and believe it or not, we have the Church to thank for the survival of many works from the Ancient World, via monks copying them and often creating illuminated manuscripts. Fast-forward and we're to the Modern Era, where it's pretty much common knowledge that the Catholic Church became powerful and corrupt, which led to its downfall--while it still exists, it doesn't have nearly the power and influence it did in the Medieval Age. I think that Miller took those instances of the Rise and Fall of a great civilizing force (Rome and then the Catholic Church), and that's what drives the book. The role of the Order of St. Leibowitz is very similar to the Benedictine Monks, and I find myself wondering, as perhaps Miller wondered, if the work of preservation of earlier knowledge perhaps contained the seeds of the ultimate downfall of the new civilization. When you look at it through this lens, the appearance of figures from the Catholic/Christian Mythos make perfect sense. Ironically, even when the small group of believers escapes the second Flame Deluge, one wonders if history will again repeat itself because after all, the ship is carrying humans who probably aren't all that much different from the humans who came before. VVV Thanks for the assist on the broken link Zola fucked around with this message at Jan 13, 2013 around 16:02 |
| # ? Jan 13, 2013 06:33 |
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I thought the Wandering Jew was pretty implicit in the Old Man. It bothered me a little that he showed up in two different time periods, making him absurdly long lived if not immortal. (Also just edited in one "[" so your link wasn't broken.)
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| # ? Jan 13, 2013 10:38 |
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LooseChanj posted:I thought the Wandering Jew was pretty implicit in the Old Man. It bothered me a little that he showed up in two different time periods, making him absurdly long lived if not immortal. I'm about 3/4 of the way through, and this book is fantastic. I can see that it was a crazy big inspiration for Anathem by Neal Stephenson, despite having an incredibly different theme. I'm going to go finish this now, it's easily the best book I've read this year so far.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2013 16:48 |
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^^^ What he saidLooseChanj posted:I thought the Wandering Jew was pretty implicit in the Old Man. It bothered me a little that he showed up in two different time periods, making him absurdly long lived if not immortal. I think he is effectively immortal because according to the legend, he wouldn't be able to die until the Second Coming. The thing is, to early Christians, this was the most horrible fate you could think of. Instead of immortality in the heart of Christ, where you were protected from the sorrows of Man, this man was condemned to wander with no rest until the end of days. Perhaps his repeated appearances were Miller's version of attempts to expiate his sins. Goons, please let me know if I'm getting into too much detail/esoterics here. This is a particularly good book for me because I was an anthropology major who had enough history courses to have it qualify as a minor, and I was fascinated by the Medieval Age. I was also baptized Catholic, so I have some knowledge of the faith from the inside, for all that I gave up the Church many many years ago.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2013 17:04 |
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I'm about 100 pages in, so I don't have a full view of what's going on. As far as the things such as the Devil's Advocate's horns/fangs, it seems to be surrealistic, to a degree. It's sort of written like early church accounts of saints, in that way. Events and characteristics are attributed to characters which clearly are not possible, but are accepted as fact. That's how I read it, at least.
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| # ? Jan 13, 2013 21:44 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 22:00 |
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Did anyone else feel that the Old Man/Wandering Jew was pretty unnecessary to the story? All he really did was serve as a mirror for other characters to have discussions with. I think he should have been given a more meaningful role or eliminated altogether.
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| # ? Jan 14, 2013 04:07 |
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