Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

BBJoey posted:

There are lots of good posts here about Vic 3, but I also want a revamped combat system. I don't know how the gently caress to do it, but goddamn am I sick of seeing The Great War resolve by every nation involved sticking their hundreds of thousands of soldiers in a single province and waiting for the numbers to whittle down. I don't want full HoI, but mechanics to force long frontlines as well as to stress the importance of mobilisation and entrenchment would be nice.

The problem is you're basically trying to model two very distinct periods of military history and it doesn't work. I've never seen a game that actually adequately simulated both WW1+ combat and Napoleonic/post-Napoleonic combat.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Panzeh posted:

The problem is you're basically trying to model two very distinct periods of military history and it doesn't work. I've never seen a game that actually adequately simulated both WW1+ combat and Napoleonic/post-Napoleonic combat.

Well, we pick one or the other then. We've defaulted to post-Napoleonic, but that seems to be unsatisfactory- and this was a period that has its major wars in the back half. So, try it the other way?

(Didn't podcat say he wanted to go MotE style for V3?)

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



It's going to be very difficult to model the military advances in terms of tactics in any Vicky game. I can only hope that they at least move away from the system they have now for raising armies where they build regiments per province. That's really irritating.

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
Vicky 3 isn't going to be complete until communist nations are also allowed to do foreign investments. Why no this has nothing to do with my foiled plan to industrialize a free African nation as commie USA :colbert:

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007

A cool feature for the next HoI, in my opinion, would be something that flatens out and/or re-assigns some of the leadership/IC/resource differentials in custom games, along with maybe the alliance partners? It'd be nice if you didn't have to do a KR-level mod to get an interesting starting history to start with.

cosmosisjones
Oct 10, 2012

Personally for V3 I'd love for diplomacy to be redone. Like make there be more things like the Congress of Berlin and conferences between Great Powers. Let me play the Great Game.

Freudian
Mar 23, 2011

Fintilgin posted:

I want to see more focus on characters in V3 (& all Paradox games). I want to have successful generals running for President or leading fascist coups. I want factories monopolized by families whose rich kids go into politics. I want every party led by a character who can be smeared or imprisoned or exiled or go on to rule the country.

Call them Movers and Shakers. Have a set number alive at any one time, recruit a new one from a random POP when one dies / falls out of Popularity (see below).

CHARACTER AMBITIONS: Enact/repeal reforms; become head of state; declare war on x country; seize Cuba; whatever.

CHARACTER POLITICS: [politics]

POPULARITY: Based on two stats, hometown popularity (how much your original POP loves you) and national popularity. If your national popularity goes to 0, you fall out of the public eye. Your hometown popularity helps cushion falls in popularity and boosts rises in fame - imagine your entire POP churning out pamphlets and badges for your cause. If your hometown popularity goes to 0, you stay in the public eye, but your support base has essentially gone - so watch out.

INTEGRITY: This basically determines how much a character is willing to diverge from their political viewpoints to achieve their ambition. If you have 10 integrity, you won't budge from them in the slightest, and will denounce all Splitters - the only difference between Splitters being how loudly you denounce. If you have 0 integrity, then you don't give a poo poo and will align yourself happily with the party that matches your ambition - but if, say, a non-accepted capitalist hitches his wagon to a Residency-Only communist party, then his hometown popularity will probably take a beating! (see above). In between 0 and 10 integrity, you're more or less likely to affiliate yourself with a party that doesn't perfectly match your politics but is more convenient, depending on how far it diverges.

RHETORIC: Rhetoric is how good the character is at swaying people to their point of view, and how effective their denunciations and affiliations are. It's more effective on POPs similar to the character, and actively counterproductive on your direct enemies - so a communist rabblerouser would actively engage a like-minded socialist, mildly interest a liberal, and enrage a reactionary to the point that they'd go out and kick a poor right there and then.

I have no idea how any of this would work in game and I'm not sure I care, but it looks like the sort of thing that would produce bucketloads of CK2-style "THIS AWFUL FUCKER POPPED UP AT THE WORST MOMENT AND TURNED ALL OF CALIFORNIA INTO REACTIONARIES AND THEN THEY ALL ROSE UP AGAINST ME AND I'D *JUST* GOT INTO A CRISIS WAR WITH BRITAIN I loving HATE HIM" posts in this thread.

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!
Additionally a system like that of "semi-characters" could help model folks like Otto von Bismarck, or Vladimir Lenin, who had huge impacts on their countries.

piratepilates
Mar 28, 2004

So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it.



I want Victoria 3 to have economic warfare, let me take down my neighbours by loving over their industry and making them poor.

And is it just me or do you get to a point in V2 where you just have more money than you ever need?

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Autonomous Monster posted:

Let's cut down on the the number of POPs.


THEN OCTUPLE THEM :kheldragar:
Only the working age population would have to actually be modeled as separate pops though. Everyone else could be collapsed into Lower Class, Middle Class, and Upper Class. Well, technically the 0-10 and 10-20 group would also be working age during this period, but their jobs would mostly just be some variety of dangerous unskilled labor where the only thing that'd matter would be whether they were Lower Class and doing those jobs, or Middle/Upper Class and focusing on education instead. (The major change happening over the course of the game being education increasingly opening up for the Lower Class too.) The working age population would be the one supporting these dependents, according to their class, beyond whatever funds the pop retired with.

Autonomous Monster posted:

I guess one trick you could pull is cutting down on the number of provinces. I wouldn't cut in, say, India, but you could junk a third of Europe and not notice or care.

(maybe need multiple RGOs per province to make that work.
I've suggested it before, but making pops per-state, with provinces being there largely to ensure warfare makes sense*, would be a way to drastically cut down on the needed number of pops.

*That is, make provinces roughly equal area, so it's impossible to create the static warfare of the Western Front on the wider Eastern Front.

Freudian posted:

Call them Movers and Shakers.
Great Men. :colbert:

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!
There's nothing better than rush-building the Panama Canal by using a Great Engineer. :smug:

V for Vegas
Sep 1, 2004

THUNDERDOME LOSER
Two things for V3:

1. PUT EVERYTHING ON ONE SCREEN

2. BRING BACK MANUAL POP SPLITTING! (Seriously).

Bel Monte
Oct 9, 2012
Pops shouldn't need to be split.

I'd just like V3 to feel more like steering a sleek, slim ship than a freaking air craft carrier (but not a speed boat either). I keep trying to like the game, but I always get bored and just end up watching numbers go up and down with nothing to do. Am I industrializing enough? How come the USA is sucking up every drat immigrant despite trying my hardest to attract people to my freer and socialized country? I built factories for you people, I give you the best drat healthcare around, and still you refuse me. The US people need to turn xenophobic over time and pass restrictions or face anger by the reactionaries.

Give me, the player, the freedom to do whatever I want to my country because I'm not playing as the temporary leader. Make every change and decision I make affect my people in an easily felt way. Playing a dictatorship? I can make more radical decisions, but the populace will get furious the fewer the people support such a change and will grow angry over time if you don't enact those changes they want. Inversely, democratic countries shouldn't let you make such drastic changes to represent the power vested in people and parties, you also suffer less from angry people revolting.

Following that, parties should have impact on what support you can muster for your decisions (and maybe unlock some) and if you piss them off you're looking at revolts that force you to go back or change against what you want. You do your own thing, but once liberals are in power trying to keep your country a dictatorship is going to anger your most popular party. If they get really angry, they're going to say "screw the system" and force a change.

In a way, I want revolts and forced government changes to be a punishment to the player. They may have to give up their conquests if their people aren't happy. And if you just don't care about your people or parties, then you have to deal with revolts between and during conquests. As a democratic country, good luck getting support to war with another country.

And so on and so forth, really. Make it more exciting, make there be reactions to every action I make. Make it a give and take with your people, as you are no longer the omniscient dictator-spirit of a country. You now have to deal with people who have their own wants and desires and won't put up with your shenanigans. Unless you can convince them otherwise... but then you're investing in propaganda than your country, a quick way to fall behind against those worrying about economics. Oh yeah, and less "how can I make my people angry so I can do something" and more "I can do this, but my people won't be happy at all, is it worth it?".

BBJoey
Oct 31, 2012

While we're crafting the perfect Victoria game, they need to completely change the way revolts work. Revolutions shouldn't be a thing that comes around every five years on the dot which you then brutally suppress by murdering all the rebels with your standing army. Personally I'd like a rebellion system where anything less than a full-blown civil war (eg the Hungarian Revolution of 1848) isn't represented on-map at all; instead, your country should gradually (or not so gradually depending on the ferocity of the revolution) grind to a halt, beginning with lower administrative efficiency, going through a loss of tax and industry income and ending in your armies mutinying (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Army_Mutinies). Making concessions or replacing leaders should cause a movement to slow or stop (depending on the level of concessions/charisma of the new leaders), but if you've treated your population badly enough they might not settle for anything less than a complete toppling of the old regime, which would lead to a civil war. Civil wars should be nation shaking events complete with a Rome-esque system where a new tag is created and provinces, characters and armies defect. Other nations should be able to intervene as well, though this will stir dissent in both nations and might actually make the participant you're intervening against stronger as the situation at the home front decays (why are we dying for another nation's internal squabble?) and more people are galvanised to the enemy cause.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

piratepilates posted:

I want Victoria 3 to have economic warfare, let me take down my neighbours by loving over their industry and making them poor.

V3's economic/blockade mechanics definitely need to be robust enough to let me recreate starving out Germany in WWI.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I've suggested it before, but making pops per-state, with provinces being there largely to ensure warfare makes sense*, would be a way to drastically cut down on the needed number of pops.

*That is, make provinces roughly equal area, so it's impossible to create the static warfare of the Western Front on the wider Eastern Front.

I think they're pretty much doing this for HOI4: strategic areas (regions?), then states, then provinces, so I have high hopes for V3.

Ofaloaf
Feb 15, 2013

Are we all doing dream lists? Let's all do dream lists.

For a theoretical V3, I wish there was somehow an ownership-on-paper sort of status that provinces could have, claimed by a civilized country (or just GP) but effectively controlled by an unciv. Maps of the early 19th century tend to show neat lines for the US-Mexico border, despite plenty of Indians being everywhere and effectively acting as a buffer zone in some instances. The on-paper thing wouldn't be exactly the same as a regular core, and other civilized countries would treat the on-paper claim as the actual border of the county, but in practice there'd be an unciv there stirring up all sorts of trouble until the Indian Wars happen.

Smoremaster
Aug 5, 2009

Don't forget to source your quotes!

Ofaloaf posted:

Are we all doing dream lists? Let's all do dream lists.

For a theoretical V3, I wish there was somehow an ownership-on-paper sort of status that provinces could have, claimed by a civilized country (or just GP) but effectively controlled by an unciv. Maps of the early 19th century tend to show neat lines for the US-Mexico border, despite plenty of Indians being everywhere and effectively acting as a buffer zone in some instances. The on-paper thing wouldn't be exactly the same as a regular core, and other civilized countries would treat the on-paper claim as the actual border of the county, but in practice there'd be an unciv there stirring up all sorts of trouble until the Indian Wars happen.

Hmm, with de jure and de facto map modes? I can get behind that idea. Would be especially applicable to Africa.

Hefty Leftist
Jun 26, 2011

"You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."


I'd like to just have the first non-static province system in a Paradox game, so you can just draw your own province borders in your imperialist adventures

DStecks
Feb 6, 2012

Ofaloaf posted:

For a theoretical V3, I wish there was somehow an ownership-on-paper sort of status that provinces could have, claimed by a civilized country (or just GP) but effectively controlled by an unciv. Maps of the early 19th century tend to show neat lines for the US-Mexico border, despite plenty of Indians being everywhere and effectively acting as a buffer zone in some instances. The on-paper thing wouldn't be exactly the same as a regular core, and other civilized countries would treat the on-paper claim as the actual border of the county, but in practice there'd be an unciv there stirring up all sorts of trouble until the Indian Wars happen.

Frankly some system of that nature should exist in EU4. Probably the quickest, dirtiest fix would be to allow colonial nations to make claims on any uncolonized province they can see, and to have those claims count as their territory unless they're contested; since AoW will introduce revoking claims as part of peace treaties.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands
Honestly, I'd be pretty satisfied if I had a way to edge competitors out of markets through price or quality. Currently the only way to dislodge a Great Power monopoly on any good is pretty much to occupy them permanently until all their former buyers go to you instead.

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007

Tomn posted:

Honestly, I'd be pretty satisfied if I had a way to edge competitors out of markets through price or quality. Currently the only way to dislodge a Great Power monopoly on any good is pretty much to occupy them permanently until all their former buyers go to you instead.

I don't know that that level of market strategy really works for the commodity-style economy Vicky generally tries to reflect. I mean it'd probably be more reasonable to ask for a cartel system to for goods, and basically treat it as a sort of in-between of diplomacy and economic policy.

I mean cartels aren't really a concept until mid-Vicky period, but it's about as close as you get to price fixing/gouging.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

I don't know that that level of market strategy really works for the commodity-style economy Vicky generally tries to reflect. I mean it'd probably be more reasonable to ask for a cartel system to for goods, and basically treat it as a sort of in-between of diplomacy and economic policy.

I mean cartels aren't really a concept until mid-Vicky period, but it's about as close as you get to price fixing/gouging.

I'm not really too hung up on the details as long as there's a way to convince Americans to buy French fabrics instead of British fabrics without occupying the British Isles for a few years.

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007

Tomn posted:

I'm not really too hung up on the details as long as there's a way to convince Americans to buy French fabrics instead of British fabrics without occupying the British Isles for a few years.

At least from the perspective of 1800s government, I think the answer would either be some sort of cartel relationship between fabric makers, or maybe letting countries set punitive import tariffs on a country? So in that case maybe if your relations with the US are better than England's, you can convince them to set a higher tariff on British imports (or British fabric in particular) and then the POPs or whatever would opt to trade with you first for the lower cost.

Again, that's kinda how I think you'd do something like that in the spirit of 1800's politics and economics...but then people might have better ideas.

wukkar
Nov 27, 2009

Freudian posted:

Call them Movers and Shakers. Have a set number alive at any one time, recruit a new one from a random POP when one dies / falls out of Popularity (see below).
This smells like Great Man Theory. Just give me a cold hard geopolitical simulator please.

PleasingFungus
Oct 10, 2012
idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Yeah, getting rid of the 1 Pop = 1 man + 1 woman + 2 children thing would be really nice. Imagine if pops were divided in age groups, perhaps in 10 year segments. Pop promotion in such a system would be more about the environment the lower two segments exist under, and the game could keep track of the "sum" of education/malnutrition/whatever over the last 20 years to determine the quality of the pops they spit out when they enter the 20-30 bracket. Done right, I think such a system could make the effects of whatever you're doing a bit more obvious, while also giving the system some inertia.

Another thing dividing the population into age groups would do would be to make demographic transitions much more apparent, and give you a heads up. The French might for example realize that though their 20-30 segment balances nicely against Germany, their 0-10 segment is noticeably smaller, which could be a real problem in the future. This might create pressure from the military to deal with the issue before it's too late.

That said, I'm also somehow in favor of simplifying pops in some fashion.

Hitlers Gay Secret posted:

Every time I suggest this everyone says "Give the intern a good tumble!" so there you go.

V for Vegas posted:

2. BRING BACK MANUAL POP SPLITTING! (Seriously).

I have changed my mind. I no longer want, a Victoria 3.

Randarkman
Jul 18, 2011

If anyone cares, I've been way too busy with work (rebuilding a store, last weekend was 3 concurrent 14 hour days for instance) and, kind of tired after coming back home, to be able to update the KR pseudo-LP I had going as Canada --> UK. Just if anyone was wondering, I did write a good deal of a branching event chain to end (or continue) the war in various ways, though, and that was kind of fun (for me at least).

DStecks
Feb 6, 2012

wukkar posted:

This smells like Great Man Theory. Just give me a cold hard geopolitical simulator please.

Not wanting to start a derail here, but reducing history to inhuman "trends and statistics" is just as wrong as reducing it to the stories of great men. History is the culmination of the shared human story, and due to human nature, some of those stories are simply more important than others.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

PleasingFungus posted:

I have changed my mind. I no longer want, a Victoria 3.

It has to be admitted, one of the major issues with Victoria 3 is figuring out how to strike a balance between the people who loved V1, the people who loved V2, and the new Paradox design philosophy.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine
:smug:


DStecks posted:

Not wanting to start a derail here, but reducing history to inhuman "trends and statistics" is just as wrong as reducing it to the stories of great men. History is the culmination of the shared human story, and due to human nature, some of those stories are simply more important than others.

Men (and women) are a product of the society that bore them and the experiences they gained growing up in that society. But yeah, no derail.

As much as I really hope V3 will happen, I also am not terribly optimistic that it ever will. Yes, Paradox has definitely hit the nail on the head with their last two games and has grown tremendously as a developer in the past few years, but I think a lot hinges on how Hearts of Iron 4 does. As much as I dearly love Paradox as a developer, I think reinventing Victoria is going to be their biggest challenge and part of me actually kinda thinks they shouldn't even try it.

Pooned
Dec 28, 2005

Eye contact counters everything
That part is wrong.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

PleasingFungus posted:

I have changed my mind. I no longer want, a Victoria 3.
That's mean.

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


Manually splitting pops sounds like a gaping chunk of anti-fun.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Agean90 posted:

Manually splitting pops sounds like a gaping chunk of anti-fun.
Absolutely agree. The mean part was putting my suggestion in the same category.

Thinking it through, my suggestion could be simplified greatly though, by simple representing age with a population pyramid instead of distinct age brackets. You'd still get the same effect, but it would be much less complex, and easily understandable at a glance.

PleasingFungus
Oct 10, 2012
idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

You seem to be a good poster and a nice person but I am afraid I am not entirely in love with your design ideas.

it's not a personal thing, it's just, I begin thinking about carefully tracking demographics across multiple age cohorts, and then I begin yawning uncontrollably and can't stop. you know how it is.

DStecks
Feb 6, 2012

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Absolutely agree. The mean part was putting my suggestion in the same category.

Your suggestion was insanely spergtacular, and I'm saying this as someone who is literally a diagnosed autistic.

Communist Zombie
Nov 1, 2011

Smoremaster posted:

Hmm, with de jure and de facto map modes? I can get behind that idea. Would be especially applicable to Africa.

Restating the request to be able to sphere states or provinces of a country instead of the entire area.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

DStecks posted:

Your suggestion was insanely spergtacular, and I'm saying this as someone who is literally a diagnosed autistic.
More spergtacular than anything else in Victoria? It has direct gameplay implications, and is something the people of the era actually worried about.

PleasingFungus posted:

You seem to be a good poster and a nice person but I am afraid I am not entirely in love with your design ideas.

it's not a personal thing, it's just, I begin thinking about carefully tracking demographics across multiple age cohorts, and then I begin yawning uncontrollably and can't stop. you know how it is.
Well, it's not like the player would have to actually do the tracking, if the UI was designed in any kind of sensible fashion. Especially if you used my updated version of the idea which reduced it all to a population pyramid.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Agean90 posted:

Manually splitting pops sounds like a gaping chunk of anti-fun.

It is.

People who only played the sequel might find this difficult to believe, but V2 was a massive improvement over the original.

gently caress, before Ricky there was no automatic factory construction

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!
Really, my only major qualm with V2 is with the economic and political systems. There just isn't any real way to influence the politics of your country besides waiting for Unrest/Consciousness to gradually tick up and spamming elections over and over, and the reform system is really rather boringly linear. You always want to liberalize/increase social welfare. It'd be nice if there were less binary choices in the political system and a more direct way to influence politics than using a national focus to encourage party loyalty.

Secondly, the economic system is not very transparent or easy to influence. Yes, you can sphere countries, but it's not clear to the player how that immediately translates to benefits for your population or your economy. The requirements for pop promotion/change are hidden behind several intimidating screens. It would be better if you could bring up the economy screen and see the activity of each trade good, both internally and on the world market, all at once. Each tick, you could see exactly what the price of each good was, how much demand your nation has for it, how many units were imported or exported, and how many units are available to you right now on the world market. Clicking on each individual good would show you which pops in your country use it, and a time-series graph of its price performance. The time-series graph could be set up on a variety of scales, from daily to yearly, to decadal.

It would be helpful to divide such a screen up into regions, which would also make much more sense. So goods from the East Asian region are cheaper to import/export to other East Asian nations, than all the way to Western Europe or the Americas. The logical thing would be to divide it into two separate screens: a "Regional Trade" screen, that shows you what you produce from your RGOs and factories, and the demands that your pops make on your market, and a "Global Trade" screen, that shows you which nations you are trading with, and the volumes of commodities that are traded. Sphering a nation would put them in the same "effective region" as you, and you'd be able to immediately see the effects of this in the "Regional Trade" screen.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

DrSunshine posted:

Really, my only major qualm with V2 is with the economic and political systems.

Soooo.... 95% of the game?

  • Locked thread