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Probably sometime between mid-May to mid-June, my parents and I will be going to Italy and France for vacation. The last (and only other) time any of us went to Europe was to see my uncle in Salamanca, Spain 13 years ago, so we're really not very familiar at all with that continent. Instead of just using WikiTravel, I thought I would poll the goons for opinions on how we can spend two weeks in these two countries. Say we're on a middle-class budget (I don't want to commit to a specific number at this point). We were thinking something like this:
As you can see, we haven't given too much thought to how long we'd be spending in each of these places since this itinerary is tentative (and, moreover, we don't know which of them are even worth visiting). So, aside from the basic question of "is this is a good itinerary?" I have a few other questions right off the bat: 1. It's obvious that we don't have as many French cities in mind as we do Italian. This is partly because my mom is much keener on Italy than France (I don't mind either way, though I can actually speak some French and am planning to improve it between now and our vacation; can't say the same for Italian) but also because we just don't know of as many good cities/towns in France to visit. Does this imbalance need some remedying? If so, how can we fix it? I was personally thinking about Nice and Marseilles, but they seem pretty far south and would probably be out of the way from our Lyon-Paris route. 2. I feel like a dope and total tourist for asking this, but please excuse my ignorance: Is Venice easily accessible by car? 3. I hear gas in Europe is 7 times the American price right now. For that reason, my dad's not too hot on renting a car, driving, and spending gas money—but then, I'm not sure traveling by plane would be any more feasible. Is car really the best way to go in Europe? Should we consider something like taking the train instead? 4. Should we bother with studying phrasebooks? Too touristy (and most people there know English anyway), right? I think that's about it for now. Please feel free to change up this itinerary in whatever way you think would be good for us. Just please keep in mind that we're looking for things to do as a family. Appreciate any and all help I can get! 
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| # ? Jan 3, 2013 01:32 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 13:01 |
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1. I think your itinerary seems generally ok. It might be a bit too much travelling for two weeks but it doesn't seem unmanageable or anything. Here some ideas of staying lengths for the cities you mentioned: Paris, 4-5 days; Rome, 2-3 days; Venice, 2 days; Milan/Lyon/Genoa, 1 day (disclaimer, I've never been to Italy or Lyon). If you are going to Genona you should probably go either before or after Milan rather than before Venice (from a quick look at a map). I can't really give much opinion on whether those are a good choice of cities, especially Genoa. You may want to skip one or two of these destinations for more time in one of the other cities. I don't think the imbalance you have is anything to be worried about in itself. Since you are definitely going to both Italy and France, just think of the most interesting cities for you to visit, regardless of which of the two countries they are in. That's not to say you shouldn't consider Nice or anything, I just don't know anything about the South of France either. 2. You can drive to Venice where you park in a big car park on the edge of the island (see http://goo.gl/maps/9Rd97). This will be expensive, around €30 a day. Alternatively you can cheaply park on the mainland and catch the train or bus into Venice. You could then also sleep on the mainland if you want to which should be much cheaper to find a hotel. The trains over the bridge to Venice is frequent and cheap. 3. Gas will be more expensive, apparently right now its €1.81/l ($10.80/gal) in Italy and €1.48/l ($8.87/gal) in France for unleaded (though you may well be using a diesel which would be a bit few cents cheaper). Cars will generally be more fuel efficient, and all prices in Europe include tax. It will also be expensive to hire a car and to drop it off in another depot. Even more so if that depot is in another country. But, it can be done with company like Europcar, book early to get better deals. All car sizes are a single size smaller than what you are used to. I'm not sure if the train would be cheaper than a car for all 3 of you travelling together. It might be worth renting a car in Italy only, then taking a train over to France to take then take TGV up to Paris, though you may also save journey times using the High Speed network in Italy as well. For information on rail travel, check out http://www.seat61.com/Italy-trains.htm http://www.seat61.com/Europe-train-tickets.htm#Italy (for Italy to France) and http://www.seat61.com/France-trains.htm. Importantly you often have to book in advance for High Speed trains, introducing inflexibility to your journey, though slower and cheaper intercity options are available. 4. Learning as much of their language as you can is always useful, for politeness reasons if nothing else. Sorry for not giving you any specific guidance! Edit: Almost forgot, driving in Italy will be a nightmare in general in terms of keeping your sanity. Edit 2: If you do check out Paris extensively then you definitely won't need a car while you are there, the Metro system is really good. If you do rent a car generally only use it for travelling between the cities, not within them. Gat fucked around with this message at Jan 3, 2013 around 20:02 |
| # ? Jan 3, 2013 17:25 |
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Don't assume most people speak English. In Italy, by my understanding, most people still learn French in school rather than English. You'll definitely find people that speak English, but don't assume it's everyone like you can in places like Scandinavia. In Rome, I found more people spoke French than English. If you speak Spanish, Spanish and Italian are ridiculously close when spoken, when I ran into people who didn't speak either French or English I would talk to them in a mixture of Spanish and Italian and they would reply to me in Italian and everything worked out well. Plus, as the other poster said, it's polite to learn some phrases in the foreign language. What the poster above said about trains vs cars is totally spot on. As for cities: Spend longer than a few days in Rome. You will regret it if you don't. I spent two weeks there and we STILL didn't manage to do everything we wanted to. Paris is probably the same, 4-5 days sounds pretty good. I've been to Paris about a billion times so I've got way less of an idea of how long things take during a single trip. Skip Marseilles, it's not a very touristy town, it's more of a port/commercial city. A good way to judge whether or not a French person voted Socialist or not is whether or not they complain about all the Arabs that live there now. Nice is a nice place, but honestly, the thing about Southern France is the small towns and the countryside. Look up the little things to do, places that have old castles, that sort of thing, and spend a couple hours in the small towns as you head up to Paris. That's my recommendation for southern France. I've never been to Italy outside of Rome, so I can't recommend anything there, sorry.
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| # ? Jan 3, 2013 19:24 |
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I don't have much experience in Italy, but in France, I would also strongly recommend taking the TGV between cities. As has been noted, buying tickets in advance will force you to be more rigid in your itinerary, but if you book far in advance, you should be able to get some pretty good prices. Also, the stations are usually located in the middle of the cities, so you get delivered right where you want to be. I like walking around and just seeing things that way, so a lot my suggestions involve hoofing it. Even if you or your parents can't walk too far, most European cities have great public transit to take you from site to site. I personally really enjoyed Lyon. I liked simply walking along the river, walking through the Parc de la Tête d'Or, and walking through old town and up the hill to Basilica of Notre-Dame. You could also look into taking vineyard/winery tours while you're there. Lyon is famous for fancy food, so I would recommend trying a nice restaurant while you're there. You can check the highly regarded Michelin Guide and sort by stars (http://restaurant.michelin.fr/resta....75724&marker=9). If you stay in the one-star range, you should still find the restaurant reasonably affordable for a nice night out. If you don't really care about fine dining, I would still say you will find better food by walking by restaurants and choosing those that (1) have a lot of locals eating there as opposed to tourists and (2) have some sort of daily special that looks hand-written on chalkboard or inserted as a card into the menu. (That applies to any city.) If you like beaches, Nice has a nice one (or so I thought), but it could be crowded by June. It has a nice old town section, and the best ice cream I've ever had in my life from a place called Fennochio. It was in a square facing a cathedral. There's a big hill to walk up, too, and you can get some pretty good views from there. To be honest, though, if you're pressed for time, you could probably skip Nice. If you do go, just avoid Hotel Albert 1er. Seemed decent when I booked, and great views overlooking the sea, but what a shithole falling into disrepair. Paris obviously has a ton to do. I've spent a pretty decent amount of time there, but since this is you're first visit, I would assume you want to hit up the big sites like the Louvre, Eiffel Tower, and Musée d'Orsay. If someone in your family is a shopaholic, there are the very chic Printemps and Galeries Lafayette on Boulevard Haussman. Or, take a walk down the Champs-Elysées. As has been mentioned, they have a great metro (subway) system, so even if you do end up driving all the way there, I would dump your car once you arrive. I've never had a car when I've been there, and I've been fine. I can't imagine driving there if you're not used to it, it must be horrible. Other places to consider might be Monaco (~1 day), Strasbourg (~1-2 days) or Bordeaux (~1-2 days). At most "touristy" sites and hotels, employees will speak enough English to point you somewhere, but I would not just assume everyone speaks English. You mentioned you already speak some French, so work on it in the meantime, and then at least try approaching people in French first. Then, they might see that you're struggling and just help you in English, and I think they'll usually appreciate the effort. You just don't want to be that loud American tourist yelling "HEY, DUH ANY Y'ALL KNOW HOW TA GIT TO THAT LOU... LOUV-RAY... LOUV-REE...LOUV... AW poo poo, THAT FANCY ART PLACE FROM HERE?"
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| # ? Jan 4, 2013 01:21 |
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Genoa is north west of Rome (almost due south of Milan) and Venice is on the far north eastern coast. It's definitely not on the way. Italians drive like maniacs; I would take the trains if possible.
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| # ? Jan 4, 2013 03:20 |
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On a (semi)related note, I'm planning on studying Italian in Italy from the ground up. Right now I'm looking at Perugia, Siena and Lucca, though I have friends in Venice and I'd at least like to visit Florence and Rome. Do any goons have glowing recommendations for any city/language college/university in particular?
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| # ? Jan 23, 2013 20:49 |
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I have never been to France, but for Rome you will need 2-3 days, 1 for Venice and 1 for Milan. I have never been to Genoa so I can't help you there. In Rome you will need one full day for the vatican, one day for everything else and a third day to see anything you have missed. I always reccomend checking out the Capuchin Crypt, it's pretty awesome and only about a 10 minute walk from Piazza Spagna. Don't worry too much about not speaking Italian, the younger generation usually speaks English pretty well, and if you're in Rome/Venice/Milan in the tourist hotspots you will have 0 issue. Genova might be another story. Look for flights on Ryanair.com but if you don't find anything cheap you might be better off going by train. Getting around Italy by train is cheap and easy, just don't forget to validate your ticket. PlatinumJukebox posted:On a (semi)related note, I'm planning on studying Italian in Italy from the ground up. Right now I'm looking at Perugia, Siena and Lucca, though I have friends in Venice and I'd at least like to visit Florence and Rome. Do any goons have glowing recommendations for any city/language college/university in particular? Come to Perugia, not much to do in Siena or Lucca, plus you'll have a goon buddy to show you around. sergio. fucked around with this message at Jan 24, 2013 around 13:48 |
| # ? Jan 24, 2013 13:33 |
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Use the train, it is fast not that expensive and a hell of a lot more relaxing that driving on Italian motorways. In Italy I would recommend Rome, Amalfi Coast/Pompei/Vesuvius/Naples, Florence and Venice. Milan and Genoa are great but I wouldn't put them up with my top things to see. However if you also want to goto France you are really pushing it for time. As already stated Rome could take you 2 weeks and you would still not have seen half of the amazing things you want to see. Venice is more than 1 day if you get out to islands and lido...and you should. Do not stay in Venice itself is my recommendation. Stay outside on the Lido or on Lido de Jesolo, that way you have to catch the water taxi's in every day and that is how you should see Venice. Not from the horrific car park. It is also alot cheaper. Milan has a Cathedral and that is pretty much it. It is an amazing Cathedral but unless you like looking at expensive designer shops the rest of the city can be pretty uninteresting. Florence in 1 square mile has something like 25% of all the Worlds art treasures. It really is worth going to see. If you also goto France I would just goto Paris and spend the rest of your time in Italy. 2 weeks is not a lot of time to see 1 country let alone 2.
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| # ? Jan 25, 2013 11:29 |
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Genova is NOT on the way from Rome to Venice. Your proposed route, zig-zaging all over the place, by car will cost an absolute fortune in gasoline, autostrada tolls, and parking. Parking especially will be awful in the cities. You'll wind up staying in terrible sterile suburban areas with parking, and then taking taxis into city center. If you travel by train, you'll have none of those worries. Stations are usually in the city centers, which are very walkable. 1. Drop France. With two weeks, you don't have time for everything on this itinerary. As to the language bit, Italian is in the same sub-family of Romance language as French. Grammatically, they are quite similar. 2. Venice is not easily accessible by car. I wouldn't recommend your Italian itinerary with a car at all, especially with the comprehensive train network they have in Italy. 3. Absolutely consider the train. You'll all be dead of stress and hypertension if you try to tour Italian cities by car as foreigners. I can't stress this enough - get rid of the car delusion. 4. Italy is very touristy, but any Italian you can pick up will endear you. Even if it's only for food terms, this is a good thing. You can be almost guaranteed that those restaurants in places like Florence or Venice that have menus in four different language will serve substandard, overpriced food.
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| # ? Jan 25, 2013 13:55 |
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These are all excellent suggestions. I'm so glad I made this post. Thanks for your input everyone; I'll discuss all these points with my folks and if I have any more questions, I'll post them here.
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| # ? Jan 25, 2013 14:13 |
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I'm a little amazed so many people think you can get through Rome in 2 days, I spent two weeks there and only left because I was running low on visa days. There's crazy amounts of stuff to see there and in the near vicinity. I think the healthy minimum is a day for the Roman-era stuff, a day for the Vatican, a day for the Renaissance-era stuff and a day for Ostia or Pompeii, at least. There's just so much to see there. (The same's true of Paris, it's just overflowing.) Anyway, if you're attached to Venice, then the best use of your time would probably be taking a train through Romagna to Venice, and then just flying to Paris. 5 days in Rome, 2 days making your way through Romagna, 2 days in Venice, 5 days in Paris. (Venice is eye-poppingly beautiful but it's also tiny. Give it an extra day if you want to pop over to Padova or Verona, both worth visiting.) If you try to drive to these places and fit in Genoa, Milan and [insert French city] then you'll just be smearing past stuff and spend most of your time in the car. If you'd rather give up Venice than the northwest, then a much simpler route would be to go from Rome up through Tuscany to Genoa and onto Milan, that's close to a straight shot up the coast. (I've been to Genoa, it's really pretty but you can reasonably see it in a day. There's also some very beautiful UNESCO-listed villages called the Cinque Terre on the way up from Florence that would make a good stop.) Milan and Genoa are both places with a lot to offer, but you can reasonably see the main tourist things in a day each. (Milan's very modern at this point, and most of the historic stuff is very centralized; Genoa's just not that big to begin with.) You'd be looking at something like 4 days Rome, 2 days Florence, 1 day Genoa, 1 day in Milan, 1 day in Lyon or Avignon or something, and 5 days in Paris. I don't think there's a good way to fit Rome, Genoa, Milan, Paris and Venice all into two weeks, though.
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| # ? Jan 26, 2013 13:43 |
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Okay good deal. Yeah I definitely think I'm going to nix Genoa and Milan. I really like the first plan you drew up: "5 days in Rome, 2 days making your way through Romagna, 2 days in Venice, 5 days in Paris." Definitely going to strongly consider that. Now allow me to throw you guys for another loop. Say instead of Italy and France, we did Italy and Greece. Would the time dedicated to Italian cities stay the same? And then what Greek cities should we visit, and how long should we spend in each one?
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| # ? Jan 26, 2013 14:09 |
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Oh man. That would be a pretty daunting challenge, Greece is kind of a pain the get around and the only particularly good international airport is in Athens, which has all of two things worth visiting (they're both really strong attractions, but we're talking like a day here). A week in Greece is enough to see a fair amount of stuff, but it's a logistical challenge. You'll also definitely have to fly there (unless you want to burn two days getting to Bari and then taking the ferry...) and you'll have a hard time finding good intercontinental flights from anywhere but Athens. A cruise would probably be the best way to use your time, especially since you mentioned a midrange budget (they're reasonably priced but not shoestring-backpacker cheap) - good itinerary items to look for are Santorini (a town built up the side of a volcanic caldera in the ocean, it's awesome), Rhodes (very well-preserved Crusader fortress city), and Ephesus (a huge ancient Greek site on the coast of Turkey). Knossos, Mykonos and Naxos are also popular and worth visiting, if possibly a little overhyped. You can also ferry yourselves around pretty easily, but if you try to go to the farther locations you'll burn a day in transit in each direction (Naxos, Santorini, and Mykonos would be easy; Rhodes, Crete or Ephesus would not). Alternatively, you could try to do a loop across the mainland - Greece is blanketed in places that make good one-day visits. But you'd be switching hotels basically every night and that gets pretty exhausting. I went on a family trip there a decade ago and we did Athens-Mycenae-Olympia-Meteora-Delphi-Thessaloniki in a week - it was definitely a little too rushed, but doable. If you do end up driving through Romagna instead of flying, Bologna and Ravenna are both good places to stop over that have some stuff worth seeing and are about halfway up to Venice. Bologna is also famous for its awesome greasy pizza (probably the closest to New York-style of the various Italian regional pizzas).
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| # ? Jan 26, 2013 16:00 |
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Why don't you just make a good use of the high-speed railway network? It will take you just a hour from Milan to Turin (which is a fantastic city to visit) and from there just get another train ticket to Lyon. Hell, I live near Milan but I honestly would invest at least a couple of nights more in Turin than here. Any segment of high speed trains shouldn't cost you more than 20 euros each if booked at least a week before your departure.
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| # ? Jan 28, 2013 02:21 |
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I traveled through Italy for three weeks last summer and like most people here I can really recommend the trains. I stayed in Naples, Rome, Florence, Venice, Verona and Milan visiting some smaller places for daytrips. Really, take the train. They are fast, affordable and stop right at the center of most cities. There are stop services between cities that will save you money, but the Frecciarossa direct trains are worth the money. They run on a different system and rarely face delays, while the regular service is not very reliable. However, there is one very important thing to note with the Frecciarossa trains. Even though you buy a ticket for one specific train, select it in the schedule, pick the seats you want and pay, your ticket is not valid. You have to stamp them yourself at very poorly indicated machines somewhere near the platform. There is almost no warning about this. Train personnel is ruthless and they will fine tourists 50 Euro per person that you have to pay right away or be detained by railway police at the next station even though you bought a ticket for that train and the seat you are in. I saw many tourists have their day ruined by this. Milan is quite a disappointing city unless you are really into expensive shopping, but if you go there from Venice be sure to stop at Verona. Not only will it break up the otherwise long drive, but it has a wonderful atmosphere and plenty of sights. Definitely worth staying for one night. Venice is amazing, but the food is pretty bad compared to the rest of Italy. Lido is the island next to it and the main vaporetti lines through Venice end up there. Staying in Lido is affordable and it is only 10 to 15 minutes from there right into the center of Venice. Vaporettis run every 10 minutes and there is a fast one back to the train station or one that takes the entire Canal and will show you all the sights and allow you to hop on and off everywhere. Be sure to buy day tickets, the price for single trips are outrageous and you'll make your money back easily. I think one ride was 8 Euro, but a dayticket only 18 or something like that. If you stay in Florence for a few days, which is absolutely gorgeous and was easily the best part of Italy I saw, you can take a halfday trip to Siena, Lucca and Pisa, which are all about one hour away by train. Pisa doesn't have much to offer aside from the leaning tower, but the train from Florence to there also stops at either Siena or Lucca (can't remember) so you can combine that and still be back in Florence for dinner. Rome is an open museum, but the people are not as friendly and the prices are high. It is absolutely worth it, but you will not be treated as nicely as in other parts of Italy. If you want to visit the Colosseum you can skip the 3 hour line by buying a more expensive ticket from a guide or go to the Forum right across. The Forum offers a combi ticket which includes the Colosseum and it only has a 15 minute line. Afterwards you can walk past all the people in line at the Colosseum without having to pay extra for it. The Vatican Museum has an incredibly long line every morning, but go around noon it should only be a 30 minute wait.
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| # ? Jan 29, 2013 13:27 |
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BioTech posted:The Vatican Museum has an incredibly long line every morning, but go around noon it should only be a 30 minute wait. You can also buy tickets for the Vatican Museum online. You have to buy for a specific day/time, but we went in literally an hour and a half before our scheduled time and the dude at the ticket counter didn't even bother to look at our tickets, just scanned them and let us through.
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| # ? Jan 29, 2013 18:13 |
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HookShot posted:You can also buy tickets for the Vatican Museum online. This is a good tip for most of Italy. In general you can buy tickets online for a lot of the Galleries and museums and this will mean you only have to queue for 1 hour instead of 4. Visiting stuff in Florence without a pre-booked ticket would waste all your day.
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| # ? Jan 31, 2013 13:11 |
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Like many, I would advise you to drop France altogether. Two weeks is just too short for two countries. And 4 days in Paris is just ridiculous (but I live here so I could be biased). *BUT* if you really insist on going to France, I'd suggest a different plan than everyone else. You're basically going cross France from south-east to north : there aren't many major cities on this itinerary, so why not rent a car and roadtrip across country, riding small roads and taking the time so sight-see while traveling? There are a lot of amazing regions and villages worth seeing on the way to Paris, it'd be shame to pass through and not see all of this. Of course, you'd need at least 4 days to do that properly. I could advise you on the areas that you need to go through if you should go for such a plan.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2013 01:04 |
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I went to Italy and France with my wife for 2 weeks this summer, here's what we did: Fly IAD->CDG. Five days in Paris. Train Paris->Annecy. 3 Days in Annecy. Fly Geneva -> Rome, rent car, drive north. Four days in Montepulciano/Siena. Drive back to Rome, 4 days in Rome. Fly back FCO-IAD. I'd actually recommend this itinerary in reverse somewhat, but here's what I learned: 1) Spend a lot of time in Rome. We spent 4 days which was wayyyyy not enough. We plan to go back, probably for another week. It's a huge, gorgeous city with a lot to offer. Of particular interest for me was the craft beer and fancy pizza movement that's going on there, but even the generic tourist poo poo was really awesome. The Forum was amazing. And we spent like 5 hours in/around the Pantheon. 2) Montepulciano is cool, Siena is better. My wife tells me (I haven't been) that Florence is even better. I'd spend a few days in Tuscany just for a change of pace from the otherwise urban plan you've got. 3) Annecy was loving awesome, my favorite place in Europe so far. Just gorgeous scenery, great food, fun people and atmosphere. Helped that I was there during Euro 2012 and the bars were packed with tourists from around Europe, but we had a blast. Train from Paris -> Annecy was cheap, scenery was great along the way, and it was only like 3 hours. 4) Paris is fun but given a choice between Paris and Rome I'd spend more time in Rome. The food was great in Paris, as was the general wandering, shopping, and talking to people. But to be honest it felt like any other big city to me. Notre Dame was great, Rodin museum was amazing, but the rest of the city was a bit of a let down. All in all I'd suggest finding more small-ish towns like Siena in Italy and Annecy in France to visit. They are usually cheaper, the food is a little better, and the feel is just better. Have fun though. I loved the whole trip and am looking forward to going back. Edit: and yes, driving in Italy was a bit of a shitshow. I totally drove illegally through historic Montepulciano because I got lost. And Rome... forget about it. And be prepared to drive stick if you rent a car in either country. Sub Par fucked around with this message at Feb 12, 2013 around 05:03 |
| # ? Feb 12, 2013 05:00 |
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anTK posted:*BUT* if you really insist on going to France, I'd suggest a different plan than everyone else. You're basically going cross France from south-east to north : there aren't many major cities on this itinerary, so why not rent a car and roadtrip across country, riding small roads and taking the time so sight-see while traveling? There are a lot of amazing regions and villages worth seeing on the way to Paris, it'd be shame to pass through and not see all of this. I would definitely second renting a car. I've been to Southern France twice, the second time with a rental car. Having the freedom a car offers, to me, is unparalled while travelling there. The Southeastern parts are full of cool villages, regions and sights, and the roads are awesome. This coming from a person who doesn't own a car. If you can do Italy in a week, pick up a car from, say, Nice, visit Monaco, and drive to Paris using the lovely country roads. If you do end up renting a car, just remember to drop it off in the same country. Having your drop-off point even in the neighboring country is ludicrously expensive. And as mentioned, 99% your car will be manual.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 22:21 |
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Hey guys, don't want to hijack the thread or anything but I have a trip to Italy coming up at the end of April and we're trying to plan it kind of last-minute. I posted in my own thread about taking a tour, but it seems like we might still have a bit of time to plan it ourselves, so we're gonna give it a try, and if it doesn't pan out quickly we'll just book a tour instead. This thread has been extremely helpful so far! It'll be a 2 week trip, just like the OP. We're definitely traveling by train. Here's what we're thinking so far. Day 1: Rome - Vatican, Sistine Chapel, St. Peter's Basilica Day 2: Rome - Ancient Rome (Colosseum, Forum, etc.) Day 3: Rome - Not sure yet, any suggestions for the other most awesome stuff to do? Day 4: Rome -> Day trip to Pompeii and maybe a coastal town. Is there a nice town accessible by train to see some coastline scenery for a few hours before heading back? Maybe Sorrento? Day 5: Florence Day 6: Florence - Haven't researched the museums and such here yet but it sounds like filling two days should be no problem. Day 7: Florence -> Day trip to Pisa and Cinque Terre. Is there enough time? Day 8: Bologna Day 9: Venice Day 10: Venice How does the first draft look so far? Being a two week trip, we have a couple more days to throw in there somewhere as well, and we're not yet sure where to put them. I've heard great things about Lake Como, but it's pretty far out of the way so I'm not sure if it's doable. Maybe we should add Assisi somewhere in the middle? Any and all suggestions welcome!
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 05:40 |
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TheEye posted:Day 1: Rome - Vatican, Sistine Chapel, St. Peter's Basilica I can't speak for the rest because I've only been to Rome, but here goes. Day 1 and 2: sounds good! Day 3: Depends on your interests. The Galleria Borghese is apparently awesome for art, my husband and I did whole tours of various churches with random famous art in them to see specific works (such as The Ecstasy of St. Theresa) or the old church designed by Michaelangelo when he was 80. You could also go along the Appian Way if you just like the idea of going along an old Roman road or visit the catacombs. There's one church, San Clemente I think which was actually built over a pre-Christian Mithran temple and you can go down to where they've excavated it and explore. If you just want to find a nice part of the city to relax in Trastevere is quite nice, especially if you get off the main touristy streets and find a nice family owned restaurant. Castel Sant'Angelo is pretty cool too, that's more historical. There's also the Pantheon and the Spanish Steps and the Trevi fountain and Piazza Navona which are all within walking distance of each other. If you go this way, get gelato at Ciampini. It is hands down the best I have ever eaten. Sorry about how random all those thoughts are, they're just what I could think of off the top of my head, in no particular order. If any of it sounds interesting, let me know and I can give you more info. Day 4: Pompeii is WAY bigger than you think it is. You won't have time to see Pompeii and a coastal town in the same day. The train from Rome to Naples takes about two hours if you take the IC, it's faster if you take the Italian equivalent of the TGV whose name I can't remember right now, but I'm not sure how much faster. Then when you're in Naples it's about a half hour via the circumvesuvia to get to Pompeii, so you're looking at about 5 hours travel total to do it as a day trip from Rome. You can really, really easily spend five hours in Pompeii itself, even longer. We were basically floored when we saw the size of the place, it was huge. They well and truly completely excavated a whole city. We were expecting something the size of maybe seven or eight city blocks, but no. It's way bigger.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 06:57 |
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Looks pretty doable, although you're not going to run out of stuff to see anywhere, either. Use that free day in Rome to go peep the Renaissance districts, there's a ton of huge baroque fountains and giant old market squares and the Spanish Steps and a million awesome churches and and. Also on your Ancient Rome day, go to the Forum first because you can buy the combination ticket with the Colosseum there and save yourself about two hours in line. I'd also recommend budgeting an extra day in Rome, if you feel like you've seen it all (and you probably won't), there's a lot of stuff in easy day-trip range around the area (Ostia Antica, Tivoli and the Villa Adriana...). If you go all the way to Pompeii, you could also spend a day or two in Naples, you'll have to pass through it anyway to get to the ruins. Pisa you can reasonably see in about 3 hours and your train will probably stop there either to or from Florence anyway, so there's no need to make a whole special trip of it, just stash your bags during a layover and head to the tower. If you go to Cinque Terre, you'll save some time just staying overnight there and catching a train from La Spezia to Bologna in the morning, rather than going all the way back to Florence. Padua and Verona are both places very near where you're going (both are within an hour of Venice) and both very worth a day trip or overnight, too. Since you're going to Venice I'd definitely recommend at least one of them, because they're historically part of the Venetian empire but not nearly as aggressively tourist-oriented as Venice itself. Lake Como would mean probably doubling your train time, so bear that in mind. If you decide it's worth it, a stop in Milan would be pretty logical, because you'll have to go through there anyway. Personally I'd advise you to put an extra day each into Rome and Florence, just because they're gigantic concentrations of things worth seeing, and using the other two for Verona and possibly Padua if you feel like blowing through it on the way to Venice. e: Actually I'm thinking about it, and maybe just spend way more time in Florence. The place is bursting at the seams with things worth a slice of your two weeks. duralict fucked around with this message at Feb 15, 2013 around 08:43 |
| # ? Feb 15, 2013 07:03 |
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Florence. Research the galleries and museums you want to see and book your tickets now online. If you don't you will spend most of your day waiting to go into a gallery rather than seeing any paintings. The Gallery with David in it is small and worth it only to see David with his Gorilla hands. The Uffizi will be crowded but is well worth it. It will probably take you half a day to walk around. The climb to the top of the Domo is worth it for the views and cross the river for food, or at least stay away from the main tourist areas when you want to eat. Pompei from Rome is a horrible idea I would say. You will spend most of your day travelling and Pompei is a full day of walking all on it's own. Also goto Herculaneum first rather than Pompei. It is smaller more manageable and more intact, then head to Pompei the next day. Also stay in Naples or somewhere on the Amalfi coast and go and see Vesuvius and Amalfi. Basically I would drop Pompei from your itinerary unless you can spend the time to do it properly otherwise you are going to have a hard day of travelling which you probably will end up hating, and that would be a shame. PlantHead fucked around with this message at Feb 15, 2013 around 08:19 |
| # ? Feb 15, 2013 08:13 |
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Personally I would drop Venice and add Naples/the Amalfi coast, but that's just because I think Venice is way over rated, and the southern part of Italy is the best part (except those thieves in Naples; ask any Italian. Everyone in Naples is a thief). That would involve starting your trip in Florence so you're not running back and forth. Florence -> Rome -> Naples (Full disclosure, most of my family lives in Calabria, so I'm biased.)
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 12:50 |
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PlantHead posted:Basically I would drop Pompei from your itinerary unless you can spend the time to do it properly otherwise you are going to have a hard day of travelling which you probably will end up hating, and that would be a shame. I disagree with this. We did Pompeii as a day trip from Rome and sure it's a big day, but that's what travelling is. It was totally doable, we didn't feel rushed for time (we left Rome at 7am or so and came back at 9pm) and we saw basically the entire city while taking our time. Sure, it'd be more relaxing to stay in Naples, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad idea, but if you really want to do Pompeii as a day trip, it's totally possible to do it comfortably.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 17:36 |
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TheEye posted:Day 5: Florence Re: Florence My most important tip: try the gelato at Vivoli on the Via dell'Isola delle Stinche. As others in this thread have said, you should book online for the Uffizi and Accademia to avoid lines. Also, if possible, I would book one of these for later in the afternoon on Day 5 and one for later in the afternoon on Day 6 (the Uffizi is large and exhausting--do it earlier in your stay). Late afternoon entry times allow you to miss the worst crowds that head in right after the lunch hour. Two other museums that I love that don't get quite as much attention as the Uffizi/Accademia are the Museo dell'Opera del Duomo (has Michelangelo's unfinished Pieta and Donatello's wooden Mary Magdalene), which is in the Piazza del Duomo (buy tickets at the same place you buy Baptistery tickets), and the Museo del Bargello, which has many famous sculptures. The courtyard of the Bargello may be my favorite spot in the whole city. If you want a view but don't want to climb to the top of the Duomo (or the lines are bad), check out the Orsanmichele (almost exactly halfway between the Piazza del Duomo and the Piazza della Signoria on Via dei Calzaiuoli). If it's open (check!!) you can walk to the upper floors and get a pretty nice view, though, to be fair, not as good as the view from the dome! As for churches, I prefer Santa Trinita and Santa Croce, but also appreciate what Santa Maria Novella, Santo Spirito and others have to offer. I'm not so keen on the interior of the Duomo or the San Lorenzo complex, but that has a lot to do with my personal preferences in art and architecture. If you (or anyone else) have questions about the major churches to visit in the city, I'd be happy to elaborate. Other random stuff: love the Baptistery, am not that thrilled with the Pitti Palace, and find the Ospedale degli Innocenti to be fascinating (and a bit creepy). I absolutely love Venice, but this is already long, so I'll talk about it in another post.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 06:31 |
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Thanks for all the great comments so far! Instead of replying individually I'll just post v1.1 of the itinerary. I put in dates that are likely but could potentially move a week back or forward if there's reason to. The previously undecided stuff remains so, but I'll definitely consider what everyone has mentioned for filling those days; I just want to finish the framework first. 4/21 Arrive in Naples around mid-morning 4/21 Day 1: Naples - Catacombs, National Archaeological Museum or Castel Nuovo? (Night 1: Naples) 4/22 Day 2: Naples -> Day trip to Pompeii, Herculaneum (Night 2: Naples) 4/23 Day 3: Rome - Vatican, Sistine Chapel, St. Peter's Basilica (Night 3: Rome) 4/24 Day 4: Rome - Ancient Rome (Night 4: Rome) 4/25 Day 5: Rome - TBD (Night 5: Rome) 4/26 Day 6: Florence - TBD (Night 6: Florence) 4/27 Day 7: Florence - TBD (Night 7: Florence) 4/28 Day 8: Cinque Terre, stopping briefly in Pisa on the way (Night 8: Cinque Terre) 4/29 Day 9: Bologna (Night 9: Bologna) 4/30 Day 10: Venice (Night 10: Venice) 5/1 Day 11: Venice (Night 11: Venice) 5/2 5/3 5/4 Leave from Venice around noon The options we're considering for the extra two days are: - Day trip from Naples to Amalfi coast - Extra day in Rome - Day trip from Rome to somewhere - Extra day in Florence - Day trip from Venice to Padua or Verona One thing we were unsure of is the common check-in/out policy over there and how it will affect our train schedule and where we spend the night. For example, this itinerary assumes that we're taking a morning train to each new city before spending the day there, but I'm not sure if this is realistic as we'll need to drop off our luggage at our places of lodging presumably long before check-in time. I suppose if early check-in or pre-check-in luggage storage is common over there then we would be fine, but we'll probably be at smaller bed & breakfasts more often than not and I don't know if they do that kind of thing.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 16:57 |
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If you go to the Amalfi coast, I highly recommend Ravello or Positano. Capri is the most common stop but I hated it. It's all designer stores and annoying tourists.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 18:23 |
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TheEye posted:4/23 Day 3: Rome - Vatican, Sistine Chapel, St. Peter's Basilica (Night 3: Rome) I do not know Rome nearly as well as I know some other cities, but I would avoid trying to do all of Vatican City in one day. The Musei Vaticani are so overwhelming that there's a real chance that you won't be up for taking St. Peter's in properly. Also, re: the Sistine Chapel, if there are only 2-3 of you, wait to get a seat on the bench that you see on the wall to your right as you walk in. They are always trying to move people through relatively quickly, but you need time to actually absorb what is there. If there are just a couple of you, you can sit there for 30-40 minutes. This gives you a good look at the Last Judgment, most of the North Wall, and some of the ceiling, though you will need to walk around on the floor in order to see the most famous parts of the ceiling. I hear a lot of younger travelers complain about Venice, so I want to talk about why I enjoy the city so much. Of course, there are many different ways to enjoy any city, but I hope that the following can help people reading this thread get a sense of what makes Venice so special to some people. If what gets you off about travel is the hunt for authenticity or serious nightlife, then you may not like Venice. Venice is confusing on every level: people get lost all the time and the city triggers different senses than cities with a car culture, which can be disorienting to some. Also, given the fact that so few people actually live in Venice, it's easy to be marked as an outsider, even if you speak Italian well. I'm OK with this. The city of Venice has been home and muse to some very tasteful outsiders who found much to love in a decadent and ghostly city. I'm happy to join them. During the day Venice is swarming with day-trippers and cruise traffic, but at night Venice is fantastical and moody. This is why I would not recommend staying in Mestre. Unfortunately, in my experience, it's hard to do Venice well on the cheap. I'm sure this will not be a popular recommendation, but have a drink at Quadri or Florian at least once. I know it's expensive, there are virtually no "real" Venetians there, and there are people in the piazza trying to sell cheap stuff. However, having a pleasant conversation over wine on a lovely evening while listening to the gentle strains of the orchestras and taking in St. Mark's and the Ducal Palace as your backdrop is a loving outstanding way to spend your time. Wait for the bells to ring and then go wander around after midnight--find yourself in a sotoportego where it's so dark that you can barely see and all you can hear are your footsteps, your breathing, and maybe water lapping up against a bridge. That setting of slight disorientation gives liberty to the imagination, and that's why I love Venice.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 21:18 |
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I'm looking at the trip you posted in the other Italy thread, this one;TheEye posted:Thanks for all the great comments so far! Instead of replying individually I'll just post v1.1 of the itinerary. I put in dates that are likely but could potentially move a week back or forward if there's reason to. The previously undecided stuff remains so, but I'll definitely consider what everyone has mentioned for filling those days; I just want to finish the framework first. I basically did that trip in 3 instead of 2 weeks. You are cutting corners, but it will absolutely work. When you go to Naples, definitely do the catacombs. It is amazing. Be aware though that the tours are only 1 or 2 days a week and only in Italian. I had some friendly college students translating the parts I didn't understand, but the guide didn't care. There are two separate ones, one with just a few skeletons underneath a church and one with dozens of undergrounds stored cars and the bombshelters you mention. It ends up in an award-winning underground parking. First one is really dull and a huge waste of time, second one is amazing. Be sure to pick the right one. Pompeii is actually quite disappointing, since anything good was taken and moved to the museum in Naples. The only thing left is the layout of the city. I managed Pompeii and Herculaneum in one day without issue, don't worry about time. For the 2nd or 3rd of April I could really recommend you Verona. It is less than 2 hours from Venice and simply amazing. It will also take you halfway to Milan, where I think your return flight will probably be departing from. Milan itself is kinda disappointing. Flights from Venice are rare, but then again I live in Europe so maybe support intercontinental flights more. However, one night is enough and though some people recommend Rome I think you should really spend more time in Florence. Rome is great, but Florence is better. It will also give you the option to take halfday trips to either Siena or Lucca, which are both very interesting. You have the right idea about Pisa, aside from an hour or two to see the tower there is nothing worth visiting.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 21:28 |
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If you get time in Venice the other islands in the lagoon are interesting to visit, Murano, Burano etc. If this is your first time in Italy and especially in Naples and that is where you are planning on flying into then I would advise you to relax when you get off the plane. Naples is chaotic and dirty but actually a very fun city once you have got settled in, just the first impressions can be daunting.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 10:49 |
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Thanks guys. It looks like our extra two days will be used for an additional day in Florence (or a day trip to Siena/Lucca), and for a day trip to Verona. Now it's time for the fun of booking flights, hotels, and trains. Did anyone know about that question I had above? Do smaller hotels and bed & breakfasts over there commonly have either early check-in or pre-check-in luggage storage?
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 16:14 |
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TheEye posted:Do smaller hotels and bed & breakfasts over there commonly have either early check-in or pre-check-in luggage storage? Sometimes it's the bigger hotels that can have early check in because it's more likely that they're not at capacity. Hotels are one area where I tend to use a travel agent. When I've booked with a Virtuoso agent it was pricy but we were given upgrades, room credits, and guaranteed early check in, as early as 8am in one case. Which ruled. And the price rivaled what I found online anyways through booking direct. Most hotels have pre check in luggage storage though. Edit: Virtuoso agents are properties like St Regis, Ritz Carlton, etc. So if you're looking for cheap they won't help you. But their level of service you get for the price is pretty amazing.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 23:49 |
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Hmm. Based on your post in the flights thread, sellouts, I took a look at that package deal I mentioned. It's from go-today.com, and for a 4/20 departure is $1699. It includes airfare, train tickets, and 9 nights at hotels (4 Rome, 3 Florence, 2 Venice), which is shorter than we're doing, but it's possible to extend the return flight and do your own thing for the remaining time. This would obviously change our itinerary what with no Naples, and would require some extra train travel after the first 9 nights, but I mocked it up and it still seems to work: 4/21 Arrive in Rome in the morning 4/21 Day 1: Rome - TBD (Night 1: Rome) 4/22 Day 2: Rome - Vatican, Sistine Chapel, St. Peter's Basilica (Night 2: Rome) 4/23 Day 3: Rome - Ancient Rome (Night 3: Rome) 4/24 Day 4: Rome -> Day trip to Pompeii (Night 4: Rome) 4/25 Day 5: Florence - TBD (Night 5: Florence) 4/26 Day 6: Florence - TBD (Night 6: Florence) 4/27 Day 7: Florence -> Day trip to Pisa and Lucca (Night 7: Florence) 4/28 Day 8: Venice (Night 8: Venice) 4/29 Day 9: Venice (Night 9: Venice) 4/30 Day 10: Verona (Night 10: Verona) 5/1 Day 11: Bologna (Night 11: Bologna) 5/2 Day 12: Cinque Terre (Night 12: Cinque Terre) 5/3 Day 13: Trains and Venice (Night 13: Venice) 5/4 Leave from Venice in the morning I hate to change things up again after we were happy with where we ended up, but I don't think there's even a chance we could come close to that price on our own. Unless there's something I'm missing, and please tell me if there is, we should be seriously considering this option.
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| # ? Feb 19, 2013 01:31 |
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That sounds great, what are the hotels included?
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| # ? Feb 19, 2013 02:47 |
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sellouts posted:That sounds great, what are the hotels included? The hotels are Express by Holiday Inn in Rome, Silla Hotel in Florence, and Russott in Venice. Looking at reviews, the first two seem alright, and the third is not exactly well-liked by many. It would most likely be good enough for us though. And then obviously we'd book our own for nights 10 through 13.
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| # ? Feb 19, 2013 04:37 |
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That looks pretty doable, but why on earth would you want to yo-yo back and forth from Venice twice? Use day 13 going to Genoa or even all the way to Milan, they're both considerably shorter train rides from La Spezia (the hub near Cinque Terre) and either would be a good place to spend the other half of day 13. Milan is a considerably larger airport than Venice, too. I think Genoa's about the same size as Venice's. e: oh, it didn't occur to me that you'd have to fly through Venice to get the package deal. duralict fucked around with this message at Feb 19, 2013 around 20:57 |
| # ? Feb 19, 2013 20:51 |
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duralict posted:e: oh, it didn't occur to me that you'd have to fly through Venice to get the package deal. Yup. Not ideal, but I can live with it.
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| # ? Feb 20, 2013 03:04 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 13:01 |
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Well, I'll at least plug Padua. It's perfect for that 13th night situation, because after spending all day on the train and coming off a two-week intensive trip, you'll probably just want to sit in a plaza somewhere with a cocktail and soak up the ambience on your last night in Italy, and doing that is pretty much the best thing about Padua. It's got some sizable pedestrianized squares in an old Renaissance quarter that get commandeered for outdoor ristos in the evening and it's great. (There's a lot to see there worthy of a full day, too, but it's also a great place just to hang out for an evening.) Venice is awesome, but I definitely wouldn't try to go back there just for the overnight so you can catch a flight, and you'll understand why once you've been there. The food is terrible, it's utterly dominated by tourists and getting bags between any guesthouse and the train station is a bit of an ordeal, and there's no reason to deal with all that twice if you're not going to get the payout. Especially considering it only takes maybe 15 extra minutes to get to the airport from Padua rather than the Venetian islands.
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| # ? Feb 20, 2013 15:06 |
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