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Defiance Industries posted:This thread inspired me to pull my old PS2 copy out of storage. And also to try and figure out what emulator settings it runs with (speed hack turned all the way up, BTW, otherwise spell effects and towns slow the game down like 50%) but that's another thing. It's a tricky situation, since playing Suikoden 3 a second time helps you know the plot and catch the intricacies of the game, but you have to wait so long to replay because playing it once is almost like playing it three times.
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Feb 16, 2015 20:34
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Defiance Industries posted:This thread inspired me to pull my old PS2 copy out of storage. And also to try and figure out what emulator settings it runs with (speed hack turned all the way up, BTW, otherwise spell effects and towns slow the game down like 50%) but that's another thing. I never had a problem with this really. Seeing the same situation from similar viewpoints was down right fascinating to me when I first got this game. I think this was the first game that I played that seriously tried to do that. Best Suikoden as far as I'm concerned.
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Feb 17, 2015 07:06
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I really like it too, mostly because Ged and his crew are written magnificently, but the beginning is tough to get through. Also Chris is a poo poo character, like the notion of making someone who is good at everything and who everyone loves a woman doesn't make her interesting so her chapters are a loving chore.
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Feb 19, 2015 07:06
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Defiance Industries posted:I really like it too, mostly because Ged and his crew are written magnificently, but the beginning is tough to get through. Also Chris is a poo poo character, like the notion of making someone who is good at everything and who everyone loves a woman doesn't make her interesting so her chapters are a loving chore. Eh..... I like Chris a fair amount (more than Hugo) It's all a matter of opinion I guess.
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Feb 19, 2015 08:34
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Yeah I like Chris a lot (but not as much as Geddoe), and made her the Flame Champion in my last playthrough. That said, since her magic stat is pretty bad, I used the PCSX2 cheat feature to give her the same magic stat as Viki. Suddenly with that change and putting on some Flame Affinity accessories she suddenly became really good at using the True Fire Rune, which hit really hard now. Not that mattered when Emily was in my party and just killed everything that moved before the rest of the party could move.
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Feb 19, 2015 16:25
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Chris is just kinda boring. I still like her, but ultimately Geddoe does much more effectively what they tried to do with her. Which is to say, effectively characterize someone who is taciturn and not given to talking a whole bunch. Geddoe manages to make the words he does say have umph. Chris just plain ol' feels underdeveloped and very passive.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:36
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I'm not particularly fond of Hugo either but at least he has character flaws that play into the story (namely, he's a dumb kid). Chris is an anime main character. Her main concept seems to be that if she is portrayed as good at everything, and all the supporting cast talks about how great she is, you will decide she is interesting.
Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 17:45
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I gave Chris the fire rune because I thought Hugo was too much of a dumb child to handle it.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:32
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I actually think she's more of a victim of her story than anything. The first part of her story has her getting dicked around by the council, which she can't really do anything about, and the second part has her completely out of her depth wandering around Grassland, which she doesn't know how to react to. I still like her a lot, but not as much as our other heroes. Dogwood Fleet posted:I gave Chris the fire rune because I thought Hugo was too much of a dumb child to handle it. He's actually pretty mature for his age. Can you imagine if we had Lulu instead of Hugo?
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Feb 19, 2015 18:58
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yokaiy posted:I actually think she's more of a victim of her story than anything. The first part of her story has her getting dicked around by the council, which she can't really do anything about, and the second part has her completely out of her depth wandering around Grassland, which she doesn't know how to react to. Just paste Lulu's head over Luca Blight laughing at a city on fire?
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Feb 19, 2015 19:31
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yokaiy posted:I actually think she's more of a victim of her story than anything. The first part of her story has her getting dicked around by the council, which she can't really do anything about, and the second part has her completely out of her depth wandering around Grassland, which she doesn't know how to react to. Yeah, this. Also Chris as a character gets shafted because her storyline has so many other forces moving around her. The council tries to manipulate her, Nash tries to manipulate her, and you can see that despite how hard she's worked and how strong she's become up to the start of the game, she still doesn't have enough power to change things by herself.... But she does also get some good development in learning to accept the reality of the world and how to make compromises and understand other people, while at the same time keeping sight of her morals and motivation. She's a very ... stiff person, and there's some neat contrast with someone who tries to be so unyielding being the one to get the True Water Rune. But at the end of the day, her character arc is not as developed as her story arc, and moments with Chris have not moved me as much as moments with Geddoe's team. Still, I'm glad she exists as a character; she provides a great contrast to both Hugo and Geddoe, and without a character like Chris as a main player from the Zexen side, this game wouldn't have the same level of complexity or the ability to show these different sides of this conflict so sympathetically. Also her design is awesome.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:51
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Where Hugo was about him growing up along with the situation as the Grasslands sees it and Geddoe is about some taciturn dudes doing whatever they feel like (while being awesome at it) along with a third party's perspective on the Grasslands/Zexen thing, Chris is more about Zexen than her own personal story of someone having the mantle of command being thrust upon them and learning all it's nuances as they go along. I like Chris more than Hugo mostly because there's a bunch of places in the story where I actively dislike Hugo. Plus I've seen a lot of coming of age stories while Chris' story is a bit more unique, so there's that.
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Feb 19, 2015 23:00
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Geddoe's part isn't about taciturn dudes doing whatever. Geddoe and his troupe have seen all this stuff before, to varying degrees. They know what Harmonia does, they know its MO, and they recognize its machinations. They're the group that discovers the assassination of the Grasslands leader was a ruse to get the Zexen and Grasslanders fighting each other. They are the outside party watching, definitely, but just as Chris's story shows the complexities of Zexen politics, Geddoe's story again expands the playing field to include Harmonia's politics. The writers have done a great job in using the three viewpoints thematically and in crafting the whole story.
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Feb 20, 2015 03:33
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yokaiy posted:He's actually pretty mature for his age. Can you imagine if we had Lulu instead of Hugo? I played the game right around the time it was released. Everything about it was making me irrationally angry. I was super excited for the Fire Bringer to show up and I didn't like the combat system. I think I was thinking about the fight between Chris and Hugo and the Fire rune's potential destruction and was like "nope, not for you." This is one of those games that I should like but just don't enjoy playing. You're covering a lot of things that I didn't notice or appreciate when I played.
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Feb 20, 2015 04:45
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Defiance Industries posted:I'm not particularly fond of Hugo either but at least he has character flaws that play into the story (namely, he's a dumb kid). Chris is an anime main character. Her main concept seems to be that if she is portrayed as good at everything, and all the supporting cast talks about how great she is, you will decide she is interesting. An anime female main character is generally either a weepy gal with issues (see Suikoden III manga's Chris  , I'll leave my rage on that subject out of this message for once), a manic pixie dream girl, or a complete badass who's always in control and has no faults.(Game) Chris is none of those. She has faults. She can be judgmental at times (see Karaiya village massacre), despite being in command she deals with the fact that she's a figure head and mostly impotent (harhar), and she has self-confidence issues (though she doesn't go on and on about them). Having been put in a leadership position that was like what she went through (though with no stabby stabby involved) I can't help but sympathize with her character. In other words....I disagree again. But opinions man. Also, of course Geddoe is better. I would NEVER say anybody is better than Geddoe.  at the idea of flame champion Lulu
mauman fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 07:40
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Flame Champion Lulu is a terrifying prospect indeed. There's only one potential idea that scares me more. Flame Champion Viki.  : "ACHOO!"
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Feb 20, 2015 10:46
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Or even worst, Flame Champion Alenia.
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Feb 20, 2015 15:29
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Flame Champion Marlowe.
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Feb 20, 2015 15:55
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Flame Champion Sgt. Joe would be the best thing.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:20
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 Flame Champion Royston. No I don't care that it's not actually a Suikoden game.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:26
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Flame Champion Rody. All that power, but Estella would just make him create campfires or other minor things. Alternatively, Flame Champion Luca Blight
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Feb 20, 2015 16:50
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SPOILERY STUFF REMOVED. Please no spoilers~
Somebody fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 17:26
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Verant posted:Alternatively, Flame Champion Luca Blight Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. Talking about a madman....... Guy Fawkes fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 20:45
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Chapter 5.3 - Chris After the conclusion of the Le Buque plot line, we find ourselves back on the character select screen (bet you didn't think we'd see that again!). The Trinity Site automatically turns it's way from Geddoe's flame to Chris', and stays there. You get one guess as to why.  Back at the castle, and probably not long after Geddoe set off, we find our council meeting. Also, I would like to point out the different standing postures in the room, most notably Lucia, Apple, and Caesar. It's a small detail, but their stances are pretty reflective of their personalities.  : "If this is the case, there is nothing we can do."We're coming in around the middle of a conversation, but it's fine.  : "This is the weakness of the Zexen Federation. We can't continue to disregard the Council's intentions."They took care of the big problems during the Thomas Castle thing, but everything's been going break-neck speed, so our Zexens haven't gotten the chance to clear everything up yet.   : "The knights can't be deployed effectively without a leader." : "I'm well aware of this. I'll return after my meeting with the Council messenger to wrap up some paperwork." : "Why can't the messenger come here?": "It would make sense, but this is Zexen. They are a bureaucracy, and very stuck in their ways." He didn't mean anything offensive by it.  She could tell. Chris and Hugo really have grown a lot since the start of this game.  : "I will take charge in your absence, Chris.": "I am counting on you, Lucia. I've had quite a few trying experiences already." Lucia's come a long way too, to be able to smile -- not smirk -- at Chris like that. They've become very trusting of each other.  : "We will send word if we acquire any new information.": "I'll be counting on you." The party menu comes up, and this is who we've got. I just leave the order as-is for now.    : "Our pleasure." : "I would love the honor of accompanying you, but Lord Borus and Lord Salome won't let me." We meet again, stupid commas. There's only one context where I will accept ha's with commas in between them, and that context is not here.   : "Yes, I am depending on you, Commander Cecile." : "Yes, milady!!!"  Wait, hold on, I forgot some things.  I decide to throw some more armor at this party, because I didn't have enough already, so Fred and Mua will be coming with us for a bit.  Chris won't read mail either.  She'll read the news, though. Actually, this kind of confuses me. Considering how much this game likes to go back a ways in time when it jumps characters, I woulda thought this hadn't happened yet.    Maybe next time, Lilly. I take care of any weapon deficiencies, at least until I run out of money.  Also, I decide to give Chris some aptitude towards Water Magic, at least until I ran out of skill points.  I don't really trust her healing abilities, though, so I give Salome some more Water Magic ranks too, and then head out. Once again, we're locked out of using the mirror, and once again, I wouldn't want to use it anyway.  loving hell, I hate this party.   Well, okay. I forgive you guys for being sturdy.  Also, these things are normal enemies now. Nothing else notable happens, though.  Once we reach Brass Castle, we trot head-first into a cutscene.  Hmm, I wonder where they're headed.   Salome dismounts. He's always the first to dismount. I don't think he likes horses much. : "No idea. Perhaps the merchants are bickering." Well, nothing ventured.   I've been pointing out animation goodies since this LP started, so it seems only fair that now I am going to point out an animation flaw -- one that actually kinda bugs me a lot. Yumi turns basically her entire model to point at Chris right here, but because her head was already slightly tilted in that direction and continues to stay in the same tilted position relative to the rest of her body, it looks really stiff and awkward, since she turns so that she is looking past Chris and in a different direction than she is pointing. It's probably not noticeable with just this shot, but it's really kind of jarring.  Sup.  : "Oh, Lady Chris! I didn't know you were here. Forgive me, milady.": "Don't worry. I just got here."She passes the knight to greet our guest.  : "It's been a long time, Yumi. A lot has happened." : "I can imagine. We weren't allowed to leave the village because my great aunt forbade it." Salome approaches, but stops at a respectful distance, along with the guard. : "I take it something needs protection within the shrine?": "Yes, the ritual shrine contains the seal of the True Water Rune, as well as the spirit of Yun."Not that it makes a difference, actually. The True Water Rune is unsealed now, and Yun is chilling out inside the Rune with Wyatt, so the shrine is pretty useless.  : "I bet of you, help us please!"Seems like a good idea.  We cut to a couple minutes later. Salome and Yumi are behind the horses; it's a little hard to tell.  : "I will.": "Lord Borus, please look after Lady Chris.": "Plese, Lady Chris, choose the rest of your party." I fill Salome's now-empty spot with Landis, because, uh. I like Landis, okay? Also, Roland seems to be buggering off with Salome, so I give his spot to Lilly. She said she wanted to come along, right? : "Now, let's go." Yumi jumps in our guest slot, and we head off.  Nothing happens on the way to the forest, so, by LP magic, we are there now!  A little ways in, we get a scene. The group seems to be progressing at a relaxed pace, with Yumi (kind of) leading.   She stops after a few steps, and closes her eyes.  Chris and Borus halt as well, a few paces ahead of her. She didn't really give them any warning or anything.  Pointing out that he actually got so far ahead that he turned around entirely to rejoin them. It's not particularly important or notable, but I liked it anyway. Also, he's being a cool guy right now. : "Chris... Hero of Zexen, White Maiden..."She finally opens her eyes, and turns to face Chris. : "Aren't you tornemted by your link to the Flame Champion?": "What are you trying to say?": "Many people will fight and die in your name."  : "You have many smoldering emotions within you because of the things you have done as a knight."   She's drawn her blade as well, at this point.  Sure enough, Sarah dispels her disguise.  Our allies have formed a circle around her, weapons drawn. : "This has nothing to do with you." : "Are you honestly prepared to control the enormous power the True Rune gives you?" : "We... I mean, Master Luc had a good reason..."She seems to falter a bit at Chris' point. : "Master Luc's reasoning may not be as moral as it should be."I imagine her saying "Master Luc" in the most bitter, sarcastic tone to ever grace mankind. Sarah hesitates, but not out of nervousness or anything.  She had really hoped to settle this with words.  Oh, she would summon the magic boss enemies, wouldn't she.  So, we've got three Azzodess' to worry about, in addition to Sarah. This is basically a team full of magic nukes. Meanwhile, I've got a team full of armored oafs who don't handle magic very well, and then Landis.  Chris has one thing going for her, though, and it's this. She sucks at magic as a general rule, and water magic is no exception. (We may never see the fourth spell of True Water.) However, this being a True Rune, we get a very useful spell at a pretty low level. Let's see if we can't even the playing field a little, shall we?   The Azzodess aren't really too much trouble, especially with some of our faster characters. This one goes down before anyone else gets to do anything.  Wow, I've never seen her use a normal attack before. I'm just glad that didn't stop Chris' chanting.  Lilly runs over as backup.  I want you all to remember this day; the day Chris used magic.     Magic problem: solved.  Never mind! Apparently this counts as not-magic. Disappointing.  Hits everyone, but not too dangerous. With no threat of having to take this three times, and with Sarah (at least) not able to cast, we're pretty much in the clear.  Fred takes some extra damage from the second one's fireballs.  Start of the next turn, you'll notice that most people are Magic Dissolved, while Chris and Lilly are Silent instead. They're two different status effects, though they do the same thing. I'm not actually sure what the difference is.  Lilly takes up all her issues with the boss herself.  Chris follows up to take Sarah down.  Yeah, okay.  That's cool. It leaves everyone but Fred Silent, for whatever that matters.  Some cleanup.  And then some levels.   : "Hm. You do behave as the successor of the rune, but..."I love when people completely ignore Borus.  I think that's a typo at the end there, shouldn't she be saying "Now is my chance?"  Regardless.   She's still making use of the True Earth Rune, and summons an earthquake, knocking the riders off of their horses and everyone else off their feet.      : "What?": "I will remove your burden. It should be easier to be a woman than a hero."Whoah, there, lady!  That was the wrong thing to say to Chris!  Unfortunately.   Chris goes the same way Geddoe did.        Well, that could have gone better. 
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Mar 4, 2015 00:50
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Eh, it's only Chris.  Nice to see SIlent Lake get some use.Like Wind of Sleep, this is probably the only game where it's actually worth casting. Especially nice to see Chris get some use out of a True Rune... even if she does proceed to lose it the next moment.
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Mar 4, 2015 01:20
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This part is pretty bad, but this part was pretty hilarious in my recent playthrough. I forgot that Sarah was Yumi, but it didn't stop me from just doing a bunch of the optional dungeons to kill treasure bosses. Figured Sarah just got so tired of ignoring the plot that she just attacked us in the middle of nowhere.
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Mar 4, 2015 01:22
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So I'm guessing Hugo gets fried next, completing the trio of futility. This kinda makes all that work to get True Water seem pretty worthless. This whole sequence of "You have beaten me in battle, but WE WIN ANYWAY and now steal your True Runes even though that is AGAINST THE RULES" seems like a huge pile of bullshit.
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Mar 4, 2015 02:10
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Yeah, this is probably the single most frustrating trope in videogames. I mean, Suikoden III is an old game, but even when it came out this poo poo was loving old hat.
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Mar 4, 2015 03:00
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I think this is around the point the original team for the game fell apart. Really unfortunate, since other suikoden make sure you get plenty of time to make good use of your true runes. Here, it feels a bit like hot potato for the True Rune.
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Mar 4, 2015 06:17
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vilkacis posted:Nice to see SIlent Lake get some use.Like Wind of Sleep, this is probably the only game where it's actually worth casting. Especially nice to see Chris get some use out of a True Rune... even if she does proceed to lose it the next moment. In most Suiko games Silent Lake/Wind of Sleep would only be useful if they were combined with other, better spells. And even then, just barely. But it wouldn't really be a JRPG if there weren't a bunch of status effect spells that no one ever uses.
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Mar 4, 2015 08:07
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Captain Bravo posted:Yeah, this is probably the single most frustrating trope in videogames. I mean, Suikoden III is an old game, but even when it came out this poo poo was loving old hat. I always point to Xenogears as the game that beat plot battles and win-the-fight-but-you-lose absolutely to death. That game basically discards the concept of boss fights after like... Kislev or so in favor of fights where the boss has a million HP and can kill you in one hit because how else would the player know that the guy is strong? Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 08:28
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I'd hazard that the only actual difference between Silent and Magic Dissolved is that they check a different immunity (because then they can just not give any enemies immunity to Magic Dissolved, allowing Silent Lake to mimic being a field effect which is what they were clearly going for.)
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Mar 4, 2015 08:48
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I can understand taking away the TLR, but this is overdoing it.
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Mar 4, 2015 10:12
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I've always thought that the chapter of Geddoe losing his rune was really well executed, but this one falls kind of flat. It doesn't really have any interesting character interaction or development like Geddoe's part did, and the idea of your full party including Chris losing to just Sarah is kind of sad at this point. Of course, it's also super easy to see coming, but there's not much they could do about that.
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Mar 4, 2015 14:24
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Watching it again makes me kind of wish they instead captured the Lightning and Water rune holders. Having the person floating in a orb that controls/siphons the rune seems more in line with the series? Then Thomas could run the rescue mission. Which would be great. EDIT : If Thomas got a True Rune, would he throw it into a volcano?
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Mar 4, 2015 14:34
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I think it doesn't help that we're a ways removed from Chris's most interesting chapter - she reverts back to Boring Chris after chapter 3 and it just kind of makes further interactions with her a bit tedious.
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Mar 4, 2015 14:49
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Honestly, I think my biggest gripe with this part is the whole woman vs warrior thing that Sarah brings up. I feel like we've already established that Chris has no intentions of being "just a woman," and what the hell does "just a woman" even mean? You can be a woman and a warrior. Her being a woman isn't like a character flaw or anything, because being a woman isn't a flaw. It's just a fact. And the game is full of so many cool warrior ladies; we've got Lucia who is awesome and also a mom, we've got Cecile who is like a magical girl knight, we've got Fist of the North Emily, we've got Lilly, and so on. Hell, even Sarah herself has proved to be a poo poo-wrecker -- not in the whacking sense but she is a better mage than most of the mages we've got here, if not all of them. Why should this be a problem for Chris when it's not a problem for any of the rest of them? Why is it even a thing? Especially given how awesome Chris comes off from a character design standpoint. Not cool, Sui3. Not cool.  AshtonDragon posted:I've always thought that the chapter of Geddoe losing his rune was really well executed, but this one falls kind of flat. It doesn't really have any interesting character interaction or development like Geddoe's part did, and the idea of your full party including Chris losing to just Sarah is kind of sad at this point. Of course, it's also super easy to see coming, but there's not much they could do about that. I guess they figured that Chris is so bad with magic that Sarah could take her alone. She didn't even have to pull the "I have more True Runes than you" thing that they had to do to pry Geddoe's out of him. You know what they coulda done to make it better? Instead of cutting it off here (yes, we're back to Hugo now, if you guys hadn't guessed), they could have had a thing of her doing things with Alma Kinan. Maybe Sarah leading Chris into the middle of the forest wasn't just an excuse to get her away from everyone else. Maybe there actually was something going on there. Maybe it was just an excuse to get her away from the others, but then the Alma Kinan ladies show up to help Chris and Sarah has to pull out some big guns we didn't know she had in order to escape with the True Rune. As it stands, the part is too short and too boring to really add anything to the story or characters, aside from "whoops, you're down to one True Rune and also another one of your people is dying." Two of our three main characters are now dying. That should be interesting. Tylana posted:Watching it again makes me kind of wish they instead captured the Lightning and Water rune holders. Having the person floating in a orb that controls/siphons the rune seems more in line with the series? Then Thomas could run the rescue mission. Which would be great. Haha, this woulda been neat. And a lot more damaging to our total strength, too, if we just kinda lost two of our generals (one of which is Geddoe.) Reminds me of LoZ: Oracle of Seasons. Ahhh, I miss that game; kinda wanna play it now.Also, of course he would. What else could he feasibly do with a True Rune? Stabbey_the_Clown posted:So I'm guessing Hugo gets fried next, completing the trio of futility. This fight is also just really easy, even if you don't use Silent Lake. The game is usually pretty good about making winnable fights actually difficult, or at least challenging enough that you won't straight-up win without trying, but this one? Eh...
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Mar 4, 2015 21:00
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yokaiy posted:I guess they figured that Chris is so bad with magic that Sarah could take her alone. She didn't even have to pull the "I have more True Runes than you" thing that they had to do to pry Geddoe's out of him. I always figured it was more than Geddoe had 50+ years to bond with his True Rune in addition to his built-in magic prowess that required the usage of two True Runes to overpower him, whereas Chris pretty much just picked up the TWR and hasn't had any time to get familiar with it and form any sort of spiritual connection to it (See: Ted's ability to call out to the Soul Eater after spending about 150 years with it despite it not currently being on his person in IV), which makes her relatively easy pickings. And yeah, I do agree that Chris's part here just feels like a letdown compared with Geddoe and Hugo's. They really dropped the ball a few times with her story. Though - why would Chris be dying? I was under the assumption that you'd only be in danger of dying without your True Rune if you've lived beyond a normal lifespan like Geddoe has.
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Mar 5, 2015 02:12
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I don't know, I found this to be pretty alarming and it got me worried for Chris. I like the build up of Sarah in disguise and saying all those things to throw everyone off their game. I do absolutely agree with Yokaiy's ideas for making it better, but for me, I think this works as intended.
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Mar 5, 2015 07:01
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Wow, I do not expect that to happen. It doesn't happen in the manga.
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Mar 6, 2015 06:55
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