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The Malian government is currently on the verge of collapse and France has deployed hundreds of ground soldiers and is conducting a furious series of air strikes that have so far failed to stem the rebel advance. The origins of the conflict are both obscure and complicated.  Mali is one of those African countries that was stiched together by European colonialism, and its riven by all the problems and divisions that you might expect would be the legacy of such a history. In the North of the country the Tuareg people were subdued by the French a century ago but maintained a tradition of resistance against colonial occupation. During the 1960s when most of African was decolonized the Tuareg homeland was divided between several different states, one of which eventually became, after a few more mergers and divisions, the Republic of Mali. In January of last year the newly formed MNLA or "National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad" (Azawad is a name for the region of Northern Mali) decided to take advantage of all the heavy weaponry and small arms that were pouring out of Gaddafi's recently looted arsenal's in Libya, so they launched an uprising against the Malian government.. The MNLA said they were fighting for an independent homeland for the Tuareg people. However the Tuareg nationalists were joined in their fight by Islamist fighters calling themselves Ansar Dine. Working together these two groups were able to put immense pressure on the weakened Malian government in the first few months of 2012. Then in March Malian soldiers in the capital launched a coup against the government based on its poor handling of the northern insurgency. A Junta took over the capital, but during the chaos the entirity of northern Mali fell to the Islamists and Tuareg rebels. Then, based on what the western media can dimly perceive (remember there are few accurate reports in conflicts like this) the two groups turned on each other and began fighting over what the new state would look like. The Islamists apparently won, or at least so runs the current media narrative. In the capital of Bamako the newly installed junta was faced with a number of sanctions and became caught up in negotiations with western governments. Meanwhile the United Nations, and France in particular (France maintains a huge imperial presence in Africa that is rarely reported on in the English language press) looked on while growing alarm as Ansar Dine surged out of Northern Mali and began to push south. The UN passed a resolution authorizing the use of force once all other options had been exhausted. But within weeks they realized that the other options had already exhausted themselves and that the situation was moving much faster than they were comfortable with. France scrambled to deploy military forces and suddenly we have a western power fully embroiled in a vicious local conflict in Africa. This came with seemingly little build up and virtually no warning from the international media (big surprise there). Al Jazeera English posted:Rebels have grabbed more territory in Mali, inching closer to the capital despite intensive aerial bombardments by French warplanes, French and Malian authorities have said. These kinds of conflicts are worth paying attention to and tend to be under reported in the West. I figured that the conflict in Mali ought to have a thread here in D&D given the rapidity with which the conflict has grabbed ahold of the international community's attention.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 02:22 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 09:24 |
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Thanks for putting together that introduction. There's been a lot of news lately about the Canadian government sending some variety of military aid (equipment and training I think) but until now I had no idea what was going on.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 02:29 |
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"Harper said Canada will send a Royal Canadian Air Force C-17 cargo plane to Mali for a period of one week – on direct request from France." Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/fowler...lates-1.1113448 I guess that might be just the start of Canadian involvement.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 02:44 |
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Do you mind if other African conflicts are discussed in this thread? There's currently some fighting going on in the Central African Republic, and it might be handy to track developments in one central location. It's fine if you want to keep it focused, though. Al-Jazeera has a good article about the different groups fighting in Mali. MNLA (National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad): A separatist Tuareg group that wants an independent state in northern Mali. FLNA (National Front for the Liberation of Azawad): An Arab group loosely linked to the MNLA. They want northern Mali to have the right to self-determination and to decide if they will be autonomous, independent, or a part of Mali. Ganda Koy: A Songhai ethnic self-protection militia that has been around since the 1990s, and has previously fought with the Mali army against Tuareg rebels. Ganda Izo: Originally a Fulani self-protection militia, they have expanded to include more than the Fulani ethnic group and are aimed at countering the Tuareg rebellion. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM): A mostly Algerian and Mauritanian group that has been in Mali since 2003. They have earned an estimated $100M from over 50 ransoms of Europeans and Canadians in the past decade. They now operate openly in northern Mali, and have a direct hand in running the Islamic Police. Ansar al Din: A group of Ifoghas Tuaregs and Berabiche Arabs that wish for sharia law to be implemented. They have (according to AJ) avoided fighting the MNLA and the FLNA, although they function as a group under which AQIM can operate. MUJAO (Movement for Unity and Jihad in West Africa): A dissident group that may have split off from AQIM, but they may be working with AQIM in Gao against mutual enemies. They have been most agressive against the MNLA and Arab groups. Edit: Germany will be sending logistical, medical, and humanitarian support to Mali. In addition, the article details some plans by the EU to send a force of 200 trainers (advisors?) to get the Malian army 'up to speed.' Health Services fucked around with this message at Jan 15, 2013 around 02:52 |
| # ? Jan 15, 2013 02:47 |
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I think most Americans would be surprised to know that the "peaceful, surrender loving french" have continued to run their own colonial empire in Western Africa all these years. Granted, most of them wouldn't admit the United States is also an imperial state in the first place. One almost never mentioned piece of trivia, large portions of Western and Central Africa (most of France's former empire) continues to use Francs that are tied to the Euro. Much like Southern Europe, almost a third of Africa is chained to currency that they have no ability to control. The more things change, they stay the same.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 02:52 |
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1. The presence of French troops is presumably to protect the civilian population and mitigate the magnitude of any warcrimes inevitability committed; its crazy to have a problem with them being there because it reminds you of colonialism. 2. I would guess that their currencies are tied to the Euro because free-floating African currencies so often end in hyperinflation.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 02:56 |
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Hurt69420 posted:1. The presence of French troops is presumably to protect the civilian population and mitigate the magnitude of any warcrimes inevitability committed; its crazy to have a problem with them being there because it reminds you of colonialism. You could have just summarized both posts as "colonialism is okay, because you know Africa."
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 03:01 |
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Sounds like the French airstrikes won't amount to much if the Malian army keeps disintegrating. The French might end up having to deploy more ground forces than they already have. And the potential East African armed force that keep getting bandied about, something around 3-5,000 troops... that's barely going to be able to secure South Mali, let alone retake the North. Sounds like they really want to fight this thing on the cheap, and aren't being realistic about the magnitude of the task.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 03:05 |
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Ardennes posted:You could have just summarized both posts as "colonialism is okay, because you know Africa." He could have summarized it that way but it would be an innaccurate summary. His first point seems to highlight an important role of French troops that cannot or are not being performed by local militaries. His second point implies historical precedent that these African countries might be trying to avoid by continuing to use the Franc.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:16 |
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So Mali is taken over by Al Qaeda, literally, and I see we hem and haw about whether it is just to stop them. I know you would sleep better at night if it wasn't Le France bombing the gently caress out of Mali, and some coalition of African troops, but Mali is pretty hosed right now and nobody else has the balls to do it.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:37 |
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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AgentF posted:He could have summarized it that way but it would be an innaccurate summary. His first point seems to highlight an important role of French troops that cannot or are not being performed by local militaries. His second point implies historical precedent that these African countries might be trying to avoid by continuing to use the Franc. The question is if international interventionism is such a great thing as well as currency coffins such as the France. It is clear which how each side will play out, the West will win and forget the blowback they will eventual rue. It is never mentioned why the North has rebelled in the first place and why foreign troops are now so necessary.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:42 |
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Pon de Bundy posted:So Mali is taken over by Al Qaeda, literally, and I see we hem and haw about whether it is just to stop them. I know you would sleep better at night if it wasn't Le France bombing the gently caress out of Mali, and some coalition of African troops, but Mali is pretty hosed right now and nobody else has the balls to do it. What proof is there that Al Qaeda is actually involved in any meaningful way? And even if they were involved why does that give France or any western nation the right to intervene in Mali?
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:43 |
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Emden posted:What proof is there that Al Qaeda is actually involved in any meaningful way? And even if they were involved why does that give France or any western nation the right to intervene in Mali? Well for starters Mali asked for the intervention and the UN authorized. As for Al Queda, I believe it was accepted through plenty of intelligence that Al Queda was operating with the Islamist extremists even before they actually held 1/2 a country. Except now Islamist extremists hold half the country.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:48 |
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Personal anecdote: Back in 2007 I flew on an impromptu aid mission to drop food supplies (I promise) to a remote Malian outpost that was under siege by the very same people who are now set to take over the country. The mission was a success (http://www.military.com/NewsContent...,149159,00.html), and we were treated like demiheroes by the Malian government (I got to meet their equivalent of the SecD and some other cabinet people). Its strange how futile it all seems in hindsight. I strongly support us staying the hell out of there unless intervention is necessary to prevent genocide.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:49 |
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The people in the rebel-held areas are being made absolutely miserable, too, as the rebels are displaying all the usual lovely behaviours Islamic extremists do: mutilating people who disagree with them and harassing women by attempting to send them back to the 1400s lifestylewise.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:50 |
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It's a pity Rwanda is so far from Mali, the RDF is normally pretty happy to send its military over to other countries to lend a helping land.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:53 |
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If Ansar Dine continues to follow the MO of Al-Shabaab as they seem to be doing then the north of Mali could be an infrastructural and cultural wreck before long, to say nothing of the lives taken and violence inflicted. Hell hath no fury like Salafis scorned, as Somalia has demonstrated.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:55 |
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:It's a pity Rwanda is so far from Mali, the RDF is normally pretty happy to send its military over to other countries to lend a helping land. They may be too busy burning villages in Eastern Congo.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 04:55 |
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Before we get into a huge derail about imperialism and how this is an awful thing for France to do, keep in mind that the Islamists in control have been running poo poo into the ground since they took power. Last July, they went into Timbuktu and destroyed a ton of the most significant sites in Islamic history. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012...E85T04E20120630 Not only is intervention justified, but it is LONG overdue. The people there want Ansar Din gone, but they are helpless to do anything about it. Unless France oversteps its bounds, this is a completely justified military response. It isn't inherently an awful thing. Try to keep that in context if you're going to criticize what is happening. VVVV 
Volkerball fucked around with this message at Jan 15, 2013 around 05:12 |
| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:03 |
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Pon de Bundy posted:So Mali is taken over by Al Qaeda, literally, and I see we hem and haw about whether it is just to stop them. I know you would sleep better at night if it wasn't Le France bombing the gently caress out of Mali, and some coalition of African troops, but Mali is pretty hosed right now and nobody else has the balls to do it. Except you know for the fact that the Mali situation was pretty much directly created by the western (and French) intervention in Libya, including the fact that the islamist forces in the north are reported not to be just armed by "looting Gaddafi's arsenal" but also from western arms drops to the islamist Libyan rebels with reports of Mali military aircraft already having been downed by western provided missiles. Isn't that just grand, you get from creating your own terrorists and literally providing material support to Al'Qaeda when politically expedient to bombing them in the name of the War on TERROR in the span of one year. But hey between Mali and Benghazi the last African intervention turned out so well, what could go wrong this time right guys ?? Dauq fucked around with this message at Jan 15, 2013 around 05:08 |
| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:04 |
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-Troika- posted:The people in the rebel-held areas are being made absolutely miserable, too, as the rebels are displaying all the usual lovely behaviours Islamic extremists do: mutilating people who disagree with them and harassing women by attempting to send them back to the 1400s lifestylewise. Haven't they also been doing the old Taliban standby of blowing up historic architecture because they don't like it (thus making it evil and stinky and against Allah)?
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:07 |
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Haven't they also been doing the old Taliban standby of blowing up historic architecture because they don't like it (thus making it evil and stinky and against Allah)? That itself is sad.  I wish there was some context in "no shrines or idols."
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:11 |
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Haven't they also been doing the old Taliban standby of blowing up historic architecture because they don't like it (thus making it evil and stinky and against Allah)? Yes. Countless Sufi shrines and marabout graves are in imminent danger because of Ansar Dine, as has already been going on in Somalia for some years now. Hell, even the relatively moderate Wahhabis that govern Saudi Arabia have been responsible for the destruction of many similar shrines in the Hejaz.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:12 |
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Dauq posted:Except you know for the fact that the Mali situation was pretty much directly created by the western (and French) intervention in Libya, including the fact that the islamist forces in the north are reported not to be just armed by "looting Gaddafi's arsenal" but also from western arms drops to the islamist Libyan rebels with reports of Mali military aircraft already having been downed by western provided missiles. Although not all bad, you are grossly simplifying the facts here.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:14 |
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Haven't they also been doing the old Taliban standby of blowing up historic architecture because they don't like it (thus making it evil and stinky and against Allah)? Yep. This is just the first one I grabbed off google, too, there's plenty more where that came from. AQ is basically a plague of locusts that mutilate people's hands and genitals. Dauq posted:Except you know for the fact that the Mali situation was pretty much directly created by the western (and French) intervention in Libya, including the fact that the islamist forces in the north are reported not to be just armed by "looting Gaddafi's arsenal" but also from western arms drops to the islamist Libyan rebels with reports of Mali military aircraft already having been downed by western provided missiles. I'm not okay with condemning the populace of Mali to a horrible fate to assuage the white guilt of D&D posters, sorry.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:15 |
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Dauq posted:Except you know for the fact that the Mali situation was pretty much directly created by the western (and French) intervention in Libya Except we didn't just go into Libya for our needs and created a giant clusterfuck, there was not going to be any non easy ending to Libya. Either NATO intervened, the war continued and potential spillover happened, or the rebels lost, Gaddafi retook eastern Libya and most likely unleashed a hellish payback on Benghazi.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:17 |
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Amused to Death posted:Except we didn't just go into Libya for our needs and created a giant clusterfuck, there was not going to be any non easy ending to Libya. Either NATO intervened, the war continued and potential spillover happened, or the rebels lost, Gaddafi retook eastern Libya and most likely unleashed a hellish payback on Benghazi. Not to mention despite the weapons that may have been smuggled out, Libya is way more stable overall than Mali is right now.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:18 |
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Nothing has been learned in the past 12 years, just the same old poo poo.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:29 |
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Liberalism is when you're against genital mutilation and religious intolerance but totally okay with heavy handed imperialism. Guess it's time to put on the big boy pants and gently caress up some brown people yet again. gently caress yall. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:31 |
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Emden posted:Liberalism is when you're against genital mutilation and religious intolerance but totally okay with heavy handed imperialism. Guess it's time to put on the big boy pants and gently caress up some brown people yet again. gently caress yall. Read the thread. The government of Mali -invited France in-.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:33 |
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-Troika- posted:Read the thread. The government of Mali -invited France in-. By a junta to bomb another autonomous part of its country.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:38 |
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Emden posted:Liberalism is when you're against genital mutilation and religious intolerance but totally okay with heavy handed imperialism. Guess it's time to put on the big boy pants and gently caress up some brown people yet again. gently caress yall. Algerian Islamists take over half of Mali: totally cool guys, just a local issue. France sends some troops to stop them at the Malian government's request: OH MY GOD IMPERIALISM let's go gently caress up some brown people right guys? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:43 |
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Everything can be spun to suit the needs of the person doing the spinning. You could say that the junta was a group of loyalists trying to hold Mali together but were sick of waiting for the ineffective government to get around to doing anything.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:48 |
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burf posted:Algerian Islamists take over half of Mali: totally cool guys, just a local issue. Maybe bombing the poo poo out of them isn't the answer? (I don't think D&D ever really changed) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:48 |
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Ardennes posted:Maybe bombing the poo poo out of them isn't the answer? Killing anyone in Mali that's part of Al Queda seems like a pretty good answer to me.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:49 |
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burf posted:Algerian Islamists take over half of Mali: totally cool guys, just a local issue. You're either being obtuse or are the corpse of William F. Buckley.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 05:53 |
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-Troika- posted:Killing anyone in Mali that's part of Al Queda seems like a pretty good answer to me. Well certainly wars work like that...wait no a poo poo load of people un-involved will be slaughtered oh well. What a sick loving civilization.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 06:00 |
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Whatever happened with the Tuaregs/MNLA, how did Islamists, a lot of whom aren't even from the area, gain the upper hand?
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 06:03 |
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Amused to Death posted:Whatever happened with the Tuaregs/MNLA, how did Islamists, a lot of whom aren't even from the area, gain the upper hand? Pretty sure the Islamists originally offered to help the MNLA to fight, and then brought in more people and pushed them out.
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| # ? Jan 15, 2013 06:11 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 09:24 |
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-Troika- posted:The people in the rebel-held areas are being made absolutely miserable, too, as the rebels are displaying all the usual lovely behaviours Islamic extremists do: mutilating people who disagree with them and harassing women by attempting to send them back to the 1400s lifestylewise. Which is a drat shame, because Tuareg music is pretty loving awesome. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwLQN3Bdx18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PVsMCsXkYo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcqlOq1cjjc Edit: quote:“Music is against Islam,” said Oumar Ould Hamaha, the military leader of the Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa, one of the three extremist groups controlling the north. “Instead of singing, why don’t they read the Koran? Why don’t they subject themselves to God and pray? We are not only against the musicians in Mali. We are in a struggle against all the musicians of the world.” Unless someone flat-out made this quote up or horrendously butchered it, that's universally horrible. Rhesus Pieces fucked around with this message at Jan 15, 2013 around 06:53 |
| # ? Jan 15, 2013 06:32 |
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