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I need some help to make what is to me at least, a pretty important life decision. I know most D&D threads start off with a massive info-dump from the creator of the thread but in this case, I am asking for information instead of pushing a view point or asking for general discussion on a topic. I've been reading snippets of some not exactly scholastic articles online and while I have more reading to do, I have a horrible and sinking feeling in my stomach. I fear that cows may actually be... pretty smart. My problem is that I REALLY enjoy eating them. Beef is wonderful. It tastes amazing and comes in so many wonderful varieties. If you asked me to make a list of my 50 favorite things to do in the world, eating beef products of various sorts would feature highly and often. Just thinking of all the ways cows are tasty is making me salivate. Are cows as intelligent as I have been reading? I've been trying to find something "authoritative" on the topic and for the most part everything I have read is not very well developed or data dense. I've found more good research material on the pros and cons of various sorts of computer and car parts with ease and do my research before I buy anything, yet I can't find anything actually scholarly on how intelligent cows are. I find lots of testimonials about slaughter houses being awful and shocking pictures of cows getting brutalized. I find anecdotal accounts which based on their source or style of writing, make me suspect they are fabricated by those who want to convert me to vegetarianism. None of that tells me how smart cows really are which is what I care about. Does anyone have any suggested reading material on the topic? I don't want someones findings. I want a detailed explanation of their experiments, what methods they used, the data which supported them being smart and the data supporting them being stupid. And now for the real meat. Suppose cows are "intelligent", which is hard to qualify, but assuming they pass some magical threshold. Should I stop eating them? My own moral beliefs are hard to justify and I imagine like most peoples scruples, they are not entirely based in good logic. I am an atheist so I hardly fear divine retribution for my bad behavior. I suppose I base my moral decisions in life on a variation on the golden rule. I genuinely and honestly believe that I should treat others the way I wish to be treated and that insofar as my actions may cause pollution, poverty, etc, I should act in socially responsible ways, even when it is not to my immediate advantage to do so, even when I could do the "wrong" thing and get away with it, I do not, because of some unquantifiable knot in my stomach tells me that if I always doing the "right" thing, it will catch on, others people will do it too, the world will become a better place. The idea of the world becoming a better place makes me very happy and of course, I'll be better off for it too. The cattle industry is bad for the environment, but if I personally stop eating beef, it is not going to have any meaningful environmental impact. I will never profit from not eating beef. There will be no incident in my entire life where a cows is going to help me, nor will there be a situation where a cow will help me ONLY because I did not eat beef. If every cow went extinct tomorrow, or if everyone stopped eating them, a cow is never going to help me. choosing not to eat beef would be an act of plain benevolence... and while it troubles me to eat something intelligent, I am not sure if I have the strength of will to give up something I love so much, just because I know it is the right thing to do. It has probably been 15 years since I touched a cow and at least 10 since I was within five feet of one. Cows are not part of my life. Why should I care about them? I don't think I have the willpower to give pure altruism to a non human species I will never interact with... even if I fear I am doing something monstrous by eating them. I am not concerned about the health impact. I know a lifestyle not eating meat is a healthier one. The thought that something is "natural" or not does not carry much weight with me, though I suppose I could be swayed on that point. Whether something is "natural" or not just seems arbitrary to me. We are evolved to eat meat, yet, I am a thinking creature and I resist many impulses which are hard wired into me because I know they are wrong. That is part of what being a thinking creature means. Knowing that I am hard wired to eat meaty things does not make me feel any better about it. I don't think I would stop eating fish or poultry. Fish are not as intelligent, though people do underestimate their intelligence. They suffer, but they are not smart enough to make me guilty. People also underestimate the intelligence of poultry and I am well aware of how horrific the treatment they receive is, yet, they are not intelligent enough to make me feel very guilty. More information, regardless of your view and especially, good reading material on the intelligence of cows would be really appreciated. Diogines fucked around with this message at Jan 19, 2013 around 00:48 |
| # ? Jan 19, 2013 00:42 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 06:51 |
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I think that the decision to eat or not to eat meat based on the intelligence of the animal is 100% your decision and that the input of others really has no place unless you want to be told what to think, in which case: Eat beef, it tastes great and is healthy for you in moderation.Diogines posted:
This is actually not a valid statement. "Healthier" food is food that delivers nutrients you need to live. You can eat meat and have as long and as healthy a life as someone who is a vegetarian. Rexicon1 fucked around with this message at Jan 19, 2013 around 00:50 |
| # ? Jan 19, 2013 00:47 |
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My biggest problem is that I can't get a clear picture on just how smart cows are. At the same time, this is a big decision and I appreciate anyone pointing out flaws in my reasoning.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 00:49 |
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OP did you grow up on a farm or otherwise in close proximity to alot of animals, because I've found most animal rights people are city-dwellers who have basically zero experience with whatever animal they particularly care for. Talking about how intelligent cows are is really pretty relative because intelligence is a relative measure. Smart compared to what? Chickens? For sure. Humans? No real comparison there.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 00:54 |
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Diogines posted:My biggest problem is that I can't get a clear picture on just how smart cows are. Cows are mammals so they are reasonably smart. They are not as smart as pigs -- pigs are really smart. quote:Cows are not part of my life. Why should I care about them? I don't think I have the willpower to give pure altruism to a non human species I will never interact with... even if I fear I am doing something monstrous by eating them. There's no "good" answer on this topic -- at least, not on these forums. Beef, at least in the quantities which Americans consume it, is not sustainable. I kind of think that we're living on the edge of a great age of excess, so you might as well enjoy it while it lasts. If you give a poo poo about how the animal feels, then don't eat meat. If you don't care that much, then go for it. I will say, please try to buy local, free-range beef if at all possible. This is healthier for both you and the cow.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 00:56 |
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sorry -- edit != quote
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 00:56 |
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EasternBronze posted:OP did you grow up on a farm or otherwise in close proximity to alot of animals, because I've found most animal rights people are city-dwellers who have basically zero experience with whatever animal they particularly care for. Talking about how intelligent cows are is really pretty relative because intelligence is a relative measure. Smart compared to what? Chickens? For sure. Humans? No real comparison there. I'm not a vegetarian of any sort, but I think the difference between city/farm dwellers and their attitude towards, say, Cows has less to do with being raised around them and more about the attitude towards them inculcated in the farm people from a young age (I assume they would frequently see animals being killed/put down). People raised around dogs their whole lives certainly find them to be less acceptable sources of food than someone from a culture that doesn't keep them as pets, and I doubt my dog is much smarter than a cow.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 00:58 |
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EasternBronze posted:OP did you grow up on a farm or otherwise in close proximity to alot of animals, because I've found most animal rights people are city-dwellers who have basically zero experience with whatever animal they particularly care for. Talking about how intelligent cows are is really pretty relative because intelligence is a relative measure. Smart compared to what? Chickens? For sure. Humans? No real comparison there. I did not grow up around farms or farm animals. Intelligence is hard to quantify, I agree with you there. I would say if a creature is able to think about the future and remember the past, develop emotional bonds with others and communicate with them, understand when death is near and be afraid, I think it probably is intelligent enough that moral consideration should be taken into account for it? A creature that smart, should not be the victim of cruelty. Un-l337-Pork posted:Cows are mammals so they are reasonably smart. They are not as smart as pigs -- pigs are really smart. Reading about pigs is what got me here actually. I don't eat pig already. I don't need someones PHD work to tell me pigs are smart, the sorts of anecdotal accounts I read about them was so convincing that, I am convinced. They are drat smart. Reading about them is what got me worried about cows.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:00 |
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I personally don't think the decision to stop eating meat should have anything to do with the intelligence of the animal in question. I myself am a vegetarian but it is more out of respect for animal life in general. For me it's more that cows as well as most animals have the ability to feel pain and the desire to avoid death and suffering, but this is not true of all life. If your decision is based on the intelligence of the animal then you should ask yourself where the threshold should be placed, and what kind of 'intelligent' qualities in the animal would make it acceptable/unacceptable to use it as food. This is your decision alone and there is no objective line that divides which animals can be eaten and which should not. People on this thread can only tell you their opinions, my own is that animal life in general should be respected and not farmed for their meat.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:01 |
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Well when you start talking about things like "intelligence" I think that you have to qualify more clearly what it is you are asking. If you want to know how much a cow can process pain and fear, I think that it's fairly self-evident that they do. I don't recall this too clearly as it was an animal behavior course I took in undergrad many years ago, but all vertebrates definitely have a sense of fear. Mammals with more complex brains such as primates and cetaceans (dolphins, whales etc.) can even process the idea of empathy to a certain degree meaning that their emotional state is affected by the state of animals around them as well. Is a feeling of fear or empathy enough to pass your personal standard for whether or not an animal is up for consumption? Is your threshold for consumption something even simpler like, the ability to problem solve or be operantly conditioned? In which case, most meat will be off the table for you. Like I said before, this is 100% a personal question that you have to ask yourself if you are alright with it. I'd recommend not being swayed by the overly emotional propaganda of PETA and the like, but again, I feel we have no right to tell you how to feel. edit: Ughhhh the way the word "smart" is being arbitrarily thrown around in this thread is making my head spin. Rexicon1 fucked around with this message at Jan 19, 2013 around 01:05 |
| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:02 |
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Framing your eating habits by looking at intelligence is the wrong way to go about things. Yes, humans are "smarter" than animals, but some animals are "smarter" than some humans. How is intelligence among animals judged? Are some cows more intelligent than others? Which species are stupid enough to be on the dinner plate? This is a pointless line of questioning.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:07 |
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Like others have said, the intelligence of animals can be argued for years and is subjective. My decision of going vegan was the environmental impact, the current prevalence of factory farming and the ecological impact from this type of mass production, and the rise of meat consumption in developing nations. ~10 kg of grain is needed to produce 1 kg of beef
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:08 |
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rock lobster posted:How is intelligence among animals judged? Are some cows more intelligent than others? Which species are stupid enough to be on the dinner plate? These are pointless questions that are impossible to answer. We can certainly come up with reasonably objective measures of how well a species can manipulate their environment around them to their own end, and stuff like that. A metric by which cows would be a fair amount lower on the chart than humans.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:09 |
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I don't think asking strangers on the internet is the best way to figure out if you should quit eating beef. I suggest trying it for a month. If, at the end of that month, you aren't jonesing hard for a burger, then you can quit worrying about the moral implications of eating delicious cows.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:09 |
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I was a vegetarian all my life, for moral reasons, up until six months ago. I thought a lot about these sorts of questions, hopefully I can be of some help.Diogines posted:My biggest problem is that I can't get a clear picture on just how smart cows are. There's a good reason for that- nobody knows. The connection between our inner mental lives, our "minds" if you will, and the physical gray stuff the brain's made of is still so poorly understood. How much do they suffer in farms? How far in the future can they plan? Are those even the right questions to be asking? The best answer you'll get is what other people have already said: they're dumber than us and smarter than chickens. But all this is sort of missing the point, because what matters is not how objectively smart cows are, but how you yourself feel about killing and eating other living things. Everyone draws their own line somewhere. I think the first post sums it up best: Rexicon1 posted:I think that the decision to eat or not to eat meat based on the intelligence of the animal is 100% your decision and that the input of others really has no place unless you want to be told what to think, in which case: Eat beef, it tastes great and is healthy for you in moderation.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:11 |
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rock lobster posted:Framing your eating habits by looking at intelligence is the wrong way to go about things. Yes, humans are "smarter" than animals, but some animals are "smarter" than some humans. Which animals have been proven to be smarter than humans?
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:14 |
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Since the OP seems to take a very objectivist (small o) stance towards morality, and most people so far have recommended a more relativistic "personal morality" point of view, I think a clarifying analogy might be in order. Let's say you're deciding whether or not to marry your girlfriend. How do you decide? Do you think about how objectively good-looking she is, or how smart she is? Do you try to decide if you could 'objectively' do better? What if you decide that Jennifer Lawrence is the best possible wife for you- do you then dump your girlfriend and spend the rest of your life chasing after her? Not at all- you marry someone because being with them makes you a better person, makes you happier about yourself. The same is true for matters of morality: you don't try to pick the "best" moral code, but rather the one that makes you feel good about yourself. And, much like wives, you pick a moral code you can live with your whole life, not just one that sounds (or looks) good.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:27 |
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EasternBronze posted:Which animals have been proven to be smarter than humans? Some Dolphins are smarter than some humans, because humans can range from vegetables in a hospital to Einstein.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:29 |
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Un-l337-Pork posted:I will say, please try to buy local, free-range beef if at all possible. This is healthier for both you and the cow. First off "free range beef" is undefined and unregulated by the USDA. CAFO beef can be marketed as "free range" because they were allowed to roam free on a fenced pasture for the first 6-8 months of its life. If we want to define "free range beef" as cattle that have spent 90% of their lives on unfenced pasture then I doubt there is going to be any local, free-range cattle in NYC nor any other major metro area. Hell other then Denver I doubt you could get free-range cattle 200-300 miles of any major metro area and I don't consider 200-300 miles to be "local".
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:29 |
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EasternBronze posted:Which animals have been proven to be smarter than humans? You're missing the point. Human tests of intelligence will necessarily reflect human values and human assumptions, and it's not clear that it makes sense to universalize these things. There are some animals that seem intelligent enough for me to avoid eating them (oink oink), but I'm completely aware that this says as much about me as it says about pigs.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:31 |
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Amarkov posted:You're missing the point. Human tests of intelligence will necessarily reflect human values and human assumptions, and it's not clear that it makes sense to universalize these things. There are some animals that seem intelligent enough for me to avoid eating them (oink oink), but I'm completely aware that this says as much about me as it says about pigs. If any animals would like to put forth an alternative non-human-centric theory of intelligence than I'm all ears.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:38 |
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I switched to vegetarianism about a year ago. I can't help you with your moral quandary (mine is based on the massive amount of resources meat takes over vegan food) and I can assure you that if you put some effort in to making some tasty rear end vegetarian meals it won't be as hard as you think. I still get cravings whenever I smell pies or whatever, but I think at this point it would actually be harder for me to give in to those cravings than not. If you are one of those people who are happy enough to change their eating habits for the right reason, I do suggest you check out the wastefulness of meat. It's actually quite staggering.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:39 |
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It's a great argument against beef, not really that great of an argument against chicken though, which comes awfully close to modern veggie/fruit/grain farming in its environmental footprint. (when you take into account how nutritionally dense chicken is)
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:42 |
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EasternBronze posted:If any animals would like to put forth an alternative non-human-centric theory of intelligence than I'm all ears. Could you possibly miss the point any harder?
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:43 |
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EasternBronze posted:If any animals would like to put forth an alternative non-human-centric theory of intelligence than I'm all ears. That bird can process visual input really well and can spot a mouse from like a billion miles away. I can't do that. That bird must think I'm a dumbshit.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:45 |
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312 posted:It's a great argument against beef, not really that great of an argument against chicken though, which comes awfully close to modern veggie/fruit/grain farming in its environmental footprint. (when you take into account how nutritionally dense chicken is) I'll admit I probably didn't do as much research into individual animals as much as I should have, but I was under the impression poultry was still kinda bad with water usage and greenhouse gasses.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:47 |
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Paper_Masochist posted:I'll admit I probably didn't do as much research into individual animals as much as I should have, but I was under the impression poultry was still kinda bad with water usage and greenhouse gasses. All modern industry is wasteful and unsustainable, welcome to the end of everything.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:48 |
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The actual point that was being made is that if you only look at or care about animal intelligence, you would conclude it's OK to eat some people, because someone with severe retaration is certainly "dumber" than some animals (pigs, etc).Paper_Masochist posted:I'll admit I probably didn't do as much research into individual animals as much as I should have, but I was under the impression poultry was still kinda bad with water usage and greenhouse gasses. The water usage is right there with things like eggs and rice, and the other footprints are only marginally worse. Once you take into account that chickens are a great source of things like protein it narrows it down even further. The thing is once you take away the health risks and moral aspects of factory chicken farming, it's an incredibly efficient system. Beef on the other hand is incredibly more wasteful and harmful to the environment, like orders of magnitudes. 312 fucked around with this message at Jan 19, 2013 around 01:51 |
| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:48 |
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Paper_Masochist posted:I'll admit I probably didn't do as much research into individual animals as much as I should have, but I was under the impression poultry was still kinda bad w/r/t water usage and greenhouse gasses. Eating chicken instead of tofu introduces significant inefficiencies, but so does eating quinoa. Until we as a society devote huge amounts of energy to determining what the least wasteful food is (and no, "local food only!" is not a reasonable approximation to this), you kinda just have to live with that.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:49 |
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Rexicon1 posted:That bird can process visual input really well and can spot a mouse from like a billion miles away. I can't do that. That bird must think I'm a dumbshit. You're perfectly free to have a definition of intelligence that is based upon the complexity of sense organs and the efficiency with which that information is processed, as long as you keep in mind that the vast majority of people wouldn't think of Intelligence in that way. I would also ask you whether you would feel significantly more guilt over killing a man with 20/20 vision than killing a blind man.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:50 |
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Hurt69420 posted:You're perfectly free to have a definition of intelligence that is based upon the complexity of sense organs and the efficiency with which that information is processed, as long as you keep in mind that the vast majority of people wouldn't think of Intelligence in that way. I would also ask you whether you would feel significantly more guilt over killing a man with 20/20 vision than killing a blind man.  I don't think he was literally proposing that as a definition of intelligence, dude.And if you're trying to make some sort of argument by extending the metaphor... well, it went over my head, that's for sure.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:54 |
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Cheers for the info guys, I'll have to take a deeper look into this stuff. Wouldn't mind me some guilt free chicken.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:55 |
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Hurt69420 posted:You're perfectly free to have a definition of intelligence that is based upon the complexity of sense organs and the efficiency with which that information is processed, as long as you keep in mind that the vast majority of people wouldn't think of Intelligence in that way. I would also ask you whether you would feel significantly more guilt over killing a man with 20/20 vision than killing a blind man. As I said, it's not wrong to make decisions on what you feel comfortable eating based on your standards of intelligence. It's just important to understand that these decisions are not objective decisions.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:58 |
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Paper_Masochist posted:Cheers for the info guys, I'll have to take a deeper look into this stuff. Wouldn't mind me some guilt free chicken. If it helps, chickens are not only really efficient waste+bugs = eggs + meat machines(when not bred on an industrial scale), they're also assholes(so are pigs).
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 01:59 |
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Guy DeBorgore posted:
I'm a sperg who can't spot sarcasm in text. With regards to my metaphor, I was overlaying the "A can obtain & process sensory information better than B, A is smarter" onto an example with 2 humans, and then asking a question under the assumption that he would feel more guilt or whatever over killing the more intelligent animal.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 02:00 |
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Simply put, if you only care about environmental footprints, eggs are negligibly different from the chicken itself. (actually worse on a per protein measure) http://www.ewg.org/meateatersguide/...mental-impacts/
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 02:00 |
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Rexicon1 posted:That bird can process visual input really well and can spot a mouse from like a billion miles away. I can't do that. That bird must think I'm a dumbshit. Accepting that we don't have a precise, concrete way of defining intelligence isn't the same as saying that all possible ways of defining intelligence are equally valid. Being able to see well or poorly isn't a good example of intelligence, unless you're prepared to assert that my digital camera is more intelligent than a bird, or that someone with glasses is arguably less intelligent than someone without. I guess if "intelligence" has precisely zero meaning, than you are correct. Edit: Also you don't really know what the bird thinks. You're just taking human judgements and applying them to a bird, even though that's exactly what you claim to getting away from. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at Jan 19, 2013 around 02:19 |
| # ? Jan 19, 2013 02:09 |
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Diogines posted:
Do you eat octopus or squid? Cos I guarantee that octopus especially are a poo poo load more intelligent than those bovine pretenders. Edit: As a marine biology student I have a huge problem with vegetarians that eat fish. The one reason I can think (and justify) of to become vegetarian would be environmental awareness, and if I were to become a vegetarian due to environmental awareness the first food group I would give up would be fish. Edit: Even going by your metrics, fish are much more intelligent than people give them credit for. Would you eat reasonably intelligent creatures such as dogs and cats? There's evidence to suggest that fish are just as brainy: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...s-to-shame.html Private Eye fucked around with this message at Jan 19, 2013 around 02:53 |
| # ? Jan 19, 2013 02:25 |
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My canine teeth, binocular vision, and insatiable appetite for ...but if you prefer tofu and veggie burgers, that's your choice, dont let other peoples morals decide how you live.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 02:27 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 06:51 |
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For me the morality of mass cow death and the intelligence of cow brains are entirely irrelevant (as well as being subjective and personal). Here's the thing - eating meat every day is environmentally devastating and completely unsustainable, full stop. Cut back as much as you can. I've seen twice a week as the recommended sustainable intake, but stopping entirely would obviously be ideal. It won't matter how smart cows are or how much they suffer under the horrors of the free market food industry after the oceans turn to acid and all the food is gone.
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| # ? Jan 19, 2013 02:56 |
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