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Tempest815 posted:DPRK is suspected to be the entity behind the most sophisticated counterfeit operation of US bank notes out there, along with being heavily involved in drug smuggling. Those are two activities that kinda point out the government there is more of a cartel of criminals with millions of slaves, as opposed to something resembling a government. It seems fascinating to me that an aspect of the DPRK economy can be described as "sophisticated", let alone "the most sophisticated... out there". I'm legitimately curious how this came to be.
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 19:45 |
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| # ? May 21, 2013 10:34 |
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Tempest815 posted:Also DPRK is suspected to be the entity behind the most sophisticated counterfeit operation of US bank notes out there, along with being heavily involved in drug smuggling. Those are two activities that kinda point out the government there is more of a cartel of criminals with millions of slaves, as opposed to something resembling a government. So in conclusion, the government there is just a normal government.
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 20:10 |
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zamin posted:It seems fascinating to me that an aspect of the DPRK economy can be described as "sophisticated", let alone "the most sophisticated... out there". I'm legitimately curious how this came to be. Even as far as they've fallen they still have the ability to do far more then the most successful and powerful criminal enterprises that have ever existed. As a sovereign state they are literally untouchable short of being invaded.
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 21:11 |
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GuestBob posted:Why, in itself, should that make liberals happy? Classical liberal, like, market liberal, not bizzare-America-only-definition liberal. Ialdabaoth posted:So in conclusion, the government there is just a normal government. Yeah, it's like, there are a billion avenues you could attack the DPRK from, I haven't a single poo poo to give about them counterfeiting American money (or, hell, even selling opium, insofar as it's a sufficiently lucrative cash crop to allow for importing more food than could be grown on those same plots, although it's not like they exactly have the welfare of the citizenry in mind with that particular economic approach). Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at Feb 14, 2013 around 21:52 |
| # ? Feb 14, 2013 21:47 |
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After the fall of North Korea they will be helped by either China, the World Bank or the IMF. Suffice to say, the fall of the god-awful Junta will simply be replaced by a few decades of even worse life conditions while a small group of north Koreans and foreign investors get rich on all those sweet mineral deposits. There is no good ending for North Korea. Not in the current world we live in.
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 22:00 |
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:There's just no good solutions to NK, when it ends, it's going to end badly no matter what. My crazy father apparently thinks we should just use cruise missiles and drones, without ever having to put boots on the ground or having "a single one of ours die."
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 22:25 |
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SoroScrew
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There's always the "drop packages of insurrection-promoting propaganda and thousands of tons of munitions throughout the country" option. That couldn't backfire.
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 22:31 |
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Paradox Personified posted:My crazy father apparently thinks we should just use cruise missiles and drones, without ever having to put boots on the ground or having "a single one of ours die." If his politics are anything like I imagine point out how much in tax dollars will need to be spent to rearm ourselves afterwards. Should shut him up.
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 22:32 |
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Paradox Personified posted:My crazy father apparently thinks we should just use cruise missiles and drones, without ever having to put boots on the ground or having "a single one of ours die." That's not too ridiculous to be honest. South Korea has a well developed army that can be perfectly used as ground forces and target designators for U.S. fire support.
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 23:56 |
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Mans posted:That's not too ridiculous to be honest. South Korea has a well developed army that can be perfectly used as ground forces and target designators for U.S. fire support. In just about every hypothetical scenario, there are swarms of NK who would blitz across the DMZ, and there's no fire pattern thick enough that's going to stop South Korean casualties. And, while much of it might be aging cold war relic poo poo, they will lob all manner of rocketry and artillery they have until they're out of ammo; South Korean civilization along the border stands to get pretty trashed if things upend. Not seeing how bad this could be for 'our guys', regardless of technological advantage, is very ridiculous.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 01:21 |
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned about North Korea is their famous pork dumpling soup. If the regime ever collapses and refugees spread across the world, one of the benefits will probably be a dumpling soup restaurant in every major first world city.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 02:20 |
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Ambrose Burnside posted:Classical liberal, like, market liberal, not bizzare-America-only-definition liberal. Why should it make a classical liberal happy? The exchange of goods and services in a particular currency is not a moral good in itself, it is the effects which that exchange may lead to which are considered benficial. NK is not China and especially not China under Deng Xiaoping and I simply don't believe that the prospect of change and improvement based on market reform and increased wealth spreading throughout society (it really does sound silly to say that, doesn't it) outweighs the current terrible reality. Put simply, we are not feeding a market, or anything which will become a market.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 02:39 |
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GuestBob posted:Why should it make a classical liberal happy? If they could get rid of their idiotic Juche theory, they could probably at least slightly replicate China's reforms in the 80s. But it seems for now like they're trying to balance Juche with some halfhearted stabs at liberalization, and that's not really going to lead to much of anything.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 02:51 |
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TurboTax posted:One thing that hasn't been mentioned about North Korea is their famous pork dumpling soup. If the regime ever collapses and refugees spread across the world, one of the benefits will probably be a dumpling soup restaurant in every major first world city. What is different about their pork dumpling soup that sets it apart from every other country's pork dumpling soup? And how is it famous?
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 02:58 |
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Jesus Christ posted:What is different about their pork dumpling soup that sets it apart from every other country's pork dumpling soup? And how is it famous? Because they're made with Long Pork 
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 03:05 |
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My favorite factoid about North Korea is that they managed to develop a means to mass produce Vinalon, a synthetic fiber derived from limestone, which granted them at least some level of self sufficiency in (horribly uncomfortable) clothing. It really brings you down when you realize that even North Korea's minor technological successes are tinged with desperation and despair.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 03:09 |
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Jesus Christ posted:What is different about their pork dumpling soup that sets it apart from every other country's pork dumpling soup? And how is it famous? If I remember right, the dumplings are bigger than in South Korean-style dumpling soup, and maybe they have a different flavor. Whatever it is that makes it distinctive, it's probably the second most famous North Korean food after this cold buckwheat noodle soup.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 03:16 |
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Grammarchist posted:My favorite factoid about North Korea is that they managed to develop a means to mass produce Vinalon, a synthetic fiber derived from limestone, which granted them at least some level of self sufficiency in (horribly uncomfortable) clothing. It really brings you down when you realize that even North Korea's minor technological successes are tinged with desperation and despair. The interesting thing is that NK objectively had a higher standard of living compared to the south for like 20 years until the 70s. Of course, this is no longer true but if you were an overseas Korean who wanted to move back after the war ended NK was the better choice then. Goes to show you can never really predict these things.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 03:45 |
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Peven Stan posted:The interesting thing is that NK objectively had a higher standard of living compared to the south for like 20 years until the 70s. Of course, this is no longer true but if you were an overseas Korean who wanted to move back after the war ended NK was the better choice then. Goes to show you can never really predict these things. The 80s resulted in a massive reversal of the Koreas. After the military rule in S.Korea fell and actual democracy started taking over the standard of living, infrastructure, and overall economic outlook sky-rocketed. Once N.Korea lost the support of the Soviets and were suddenly on their own they doubled down in the Juche mentality rather then attempt to introduce limited capitalism and modernize a bit. Now everyone is just waiting for the situation to resolve itself in some horrific manner resulting in the death of millions and the leaders fleeing and living the rest of their lives in luxury somewhere in the Middle East.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 04:01 |
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Peven Stan posted:The interesting thing is that NK objectively had a higher standard of living compared to the south for like 20 years until the 70s. Of course, this is no longer true but if you were an overseas Korean who wanted to move back after the war ended NK was the better choice then. Goes to show you can never really predict these things. Crippling sanctions, the collapse of your sponsoring global superpower and a concurrent massive famine in a country already strapped for arable land are a bitch, it turns out!
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 04:01 |
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pentyne posted:The 80s resulted in a massive reversal of the Koreas. After the military rule in S.Korea fell and actual democracy started taking over the standard of living, infrastructure, and overall economic outlook sky-rocketed. Once N.Korea lost the support of the Soviets and were suddenly on their own they doubled down in the Juche mentality rather then attempt to introduce limited capitalism and modernize a bit. I don't think it has to end like that. There are probably enough generals and other bureaucrats in glorious NK that see the writing on the wall and want to step on the escalator to riches by privatizing the economy wholesale and ending decades of self imposed isolation.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 04:16 |
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Jesus Christ posted:What is different about their pork dumpling soup that sets it apart from every other country's pork dumpling soup? And how is it famous? The secret ingredient is people!
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 04:50 |
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Peven Stan posted:I don't think it has to end like that. There are probably enough generals and other bureaucrats in glorious NK that see the writing on the wall and want to step on the escalator to riches by privatizing the economy wholesale and ending decades of self imposed isolation. I would be incredibly amazed if the ruling military leaders decided to surrender some power to improve the quality of life for the civilian population. If Un started pushing towards restructuring and opening the economy publicly I could see tons of foreign nations pouring money and support in to help him and ensure he isn't deposed by the military. So far, Un is untouched by the atrocities that N.Korea is identified with and just playing along with the cult figure head mentality. The vast majority of the military command is not and has a vested interest in nothing changing at all otherwise they might become accountable for their actions.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 05:00 |
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Peven Stan posted:I don't think it has to end like that. There are probably enough generals and other bureaucrats in glorious NK that see the writing on the wall and want to step on the escalator to riches by privatizing the economy wholesale and ending decades of self imposed isolation. This is what I want to believe in. We know the whole country is drowning in propaganda and there's no way to "liberate" them because they seriously think KJU is a god, but you know full drat well the state level politicians and generals have access to global news and the internet and know they have a stranglehold on something the US could take from them in a matter of seconds and would rather adapt and change than call down a shitstorm upon their heads. They only have power as long as we're aware that they're aware that their only bargaining chip is that they're holding their own people hostage.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 05:17 |
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Mind Loving Owl posted:I remember seeing one of those pictures in a doc on the prison camps posted a while back. It was a fourteen year old being hung over a fire by his groin. You're most likely referring to Shin-Dong Hyuk, the only known DPRK refugee who was born in one of the concentration camps. In the case of his birth, the pregnancy was permitted because his parents were given a "reward marriage" for being particularly skilled at slave labor. What happened was that Shin was raised without any understanding of empathy, compassion, love, or freedom. Having been born a slave, he believed that his life as a prisoner was perfectly normal: the starvation, the beatings, the executions, everything. His brainwashed upbringing was so complete that when he overheard his mother and older brother planning an escape, Shin immediately ran off to tell a guard about it, knowing his mother would be executed for the attempt. Problem was the guard never informed his superiors that Shin was the informant. Instead, the guard claimed to have discovered the escape attempt himself in order to gain a promotion. Because Shin's role wasn't mentioned, the other guards assumed that he was complicit in the escape attempt, and tortured him to try to exact a confession by hanging him over a fire and piercing his belly with a hook so he couldn't wriggle around too much. He still has the scars on his back, and there's one youtube video where he was comfortable enough with pulling up his shirt to show them. Eventually he was dragged out to the killing field, where he witnessed his mother and brother being executed. At the time he thought they deserved it, because they had attempted to escape. When Shin eventually escaped and fled to China, seeing people able to merely walk around without being harassed was such a shock to him that he described his first few days of freedom as "like walking through a dream." Eventually he escaped to China and fled to South Korea, where he speaks out against the crimes against humanity committed by the DPRK. He's got friends now, and he has access to food that was impossible back in the prison camps (the only reason he fled was because he learned about cooked meat, and ached to try it). However, he also now sees human relationships in a way that he'd never understood before. Watching a mother walking hand-in-hand with her son and hugging him, and other such simple gestures of parental love, has led him to realize how much he'd lost. Currently he describes himself as "an animal learning how to become a human being." Paradox Personified posted:My crazy father apparently thinks we should just use cruise missiles and drones, without ever having to put boots on the ground or having "a single one of ours die." America tried bombing campaigns against North Korea, heedless of the loss of civilian lives. We ended up with North Korea. ShadowCatboy fucked around with this message at Feb 15, 2013 around 06:21 |
| # ? Feb 15, 2013 06:17 |
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I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this was brought up already: Lots of people have been referring to NK's current leader as just "Un". "Kim Jong Un" is a Korean name, written in the East Asian order. "Kim" is a last name; "Jong-Un" is a first name. It makes no sense to call him "Un". That's like referring to President Obama as "rack". Maybe if you were best buddies with KJU you'd call him "Jong-un", but hopefully we're not, so it looks kind of weird...
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 15:44 |
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hitension posted:I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this was brought up already: Lots of people have been referring to NK's current leader as just "Un". Ya ok, the leaders have been named Kim Jong Sung, Kin Jong Il, and Kin Jong Un, so it isn't a stretch to refer to him as Un seeing as its the ONLY unique identifier.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 16:04 |
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Off to the re-education camps with you. The "Great Leader" and "Eternal President" of North Korea was named Kim Il-Sung, not Kim Jong Sung..
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 16:19 |
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Jailbrekr posted:Ya ok, the leaders have been named Kim Jong Sung, Kin Jong Il, and Kin Jong Un, so it isn't a stretch to refer to him as Un seeing as its the ONLY unique identifier. Kim Il Sung. So no, not the only unique identifier.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 16:25 |
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ShadowCatboy posted:Kim Il Sung. So no, not the only unique identifier. That's just a kick rear end nickname he got from his dogtown days. Back then we called him il kim and would kick back with weed and bitches.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 17:27 |
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Golli posted:Off to the re-education camps with you. My bad, but the point stands. Nothing wrong with calling him The Un.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 17:47 |
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Jailbrekr posted:My bad, but the point stands. Nothing wrong with calling him The Un. I keep remembering the Futurama episode showing history, and the UN was referred to as "The Un."
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 19:57 |
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I wonder what Kim Jong Un's signature song is going to be. It'll be hard to top his dad's.
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 20:41 |
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If I had to guess? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2mU6USTBRE
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 04:36 |
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Godholio posted:I keep remembering the Futurama episode showing history, and the UN was referred to as "The Un." The episode where Fry tries to drive the 20th century car, and hits Flexo? If so, they did the same joke in Idiocracy: Charlie Chaplin rose to power in Germany, and then the Un un-Nazied the world.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 14:07 |
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Dolphin posted:Why would anyone risk traveling to this country? I see "I went to Pyongyang lol check out these pictures" stories all the time and I wonder how easy it would be for these vacationers to make one small mistake and end up tortured to death in a concentration camp. It's the new "Hipster/Ironic" tourist destination for white people who want photos from places their other hipster friends have not been. They go, take pictures, put it in their blog, say over and over again, "LOL this was all just a show for us" and then use it as a talking point for the next ten years. They're basically the Texarakkis crew with enough money to buy a plane ticket instead of camping in the Texas desert. Every time I've seen someone in the last ten years post their youtube videos, blog, or album of them doing "wacky" things in North Korea I want to reach through the screen and strangle them. It seems nobody ever calls them out on this poo poo. I know it's an analogy, and they are never perfect, but I fee it's like going on a tour of Nazi Germany in 1944 while knowing full well that the Holocaust is going on. By the end of your stay you've left enough cash in tourist dollars to have a family of 8 shipped from Munich to Auschwitz, confined for 3 months, gassed, and incinerated. Plus the visa fee they charged you was enough to construct two 88mm shells to fire at Allied bombers. A few NK threads ago a goon was saying that he was going to "Ironically" buy a North Korean friendship package that consisted of a badge and some propaganda. He was rightly berated in the thread for giving money to the NK cause.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 14:29 |
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Blistex posted:It's the new "Hipster/Ironic" tourist destination for white people who want photos from places their other hipster friends have not been. I'm pretty sure it's not just white people who visit North Korea.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 14:31 |
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The only valid reason a non aid worker should be going to North Korea is to shoot Kim in the head. But even then he or she is loving stupid and not helping with the Tom Clancy poo poo.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 14:46 |
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iodine posted:I'm pretty sure it's not just white people who visit North Korea. Way to focus on the least important part of the post. Good thing you quoted the whole post! Typing "North Korean Tour" or "Tourists in North Korea" or "Our trip to North Korea" in Google Image Search comes back with a lot of white faces, and a surprisingly large amount of Justin Bieber photos. I've yet to see an amateur documentary/Blog/Youtube video/photo album that wasn't Goofy white people smirking at the camera and then talking about how "this is all so crazy maaaaaan!". But I'm sure someone is going to type "black person in north korea" or something else. The point of my post was that idiots are going to North Korea, pretending they are the first people to do so, and giving a horrible regime money to continue being a horrible regime.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 14:47 |
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| # ? May 21, 2013 10:34 |
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Blistex posted:Way to focus on the least important part of the post. Good thing you quoted the whole post! Case in point: "American In North Korea"
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 15:03 |
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