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Rake Arms posted:I thought all the negativity around Wind Waker was only before release. Seriously, how can you not fall in love with that game by the end of Dragon Roost Cavern? By saying that your Zelda must be SERIOUS because it is REAL HIGH FANTASY and NOT A KIDDIE GAME DAMMIT.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:00
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gooby on rails posted:By saying that your Zelda must be SERIOUS because it is REAL HIGH FANTASY and NOT A KIDDIE GAME DAMMIT. Yeah people were rather pissed about the Gamecube demo showing a highly detailed link and then Windwaker came along and dashed those hopes with it's stylized art direction. Especialy since there was stuff like Shadow of the Collosus and other things coming down the pipes. But the pre-order bonus was the best, the full game of OoT and the alternate version for free.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:02
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Ineffiable posted:If you haven't preordered your copy of Hyrule Historia yet, you should do so soon. Amazon's got it for around $16, and it's sad to be pretty comprehensive. if you're a fan of Zelda, at all, this is like the most essential merchandise you need. Was it really $16ish? I paid $20.99 and right now it's $19.42. Since I preordered I am supposed to get any discounts if it gets cheaper and usually Amazon emails me when that happens. This time I got no such email though and man that's five bux! e: Oh I think it's now $16 off cover price. And with the old Pre-Order Price Guarantee it'll get applied later when they actually charge me I think. Heran Bago fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jan 26, 2013 |
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Jan 26, 2013 00:05
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Rake Arms posted:I thought all the negativity around Wind Waker was only before release. Seriously, how can you not fall in love with that game by the end of Dragon Roost Cavern? You're assuming the people who complained that hard about it after it came out ever actually played any of it. I was just a touch skeptical at first when going to play it but the first time I killed something and it exploded with that little cartoonish puff of smoke I was enamored.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:05
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Runaway Five posted:At the time it came out, I didn't like it overall. I really liked the game up until the last few hours of the game. I thought the ending dungeon was rushed and that the ending was terrible Destroy ancient Hyrule, the exact OPPOSITE of what the purpose of the game was about. Link was supposed to resurrect ancient Hyrule. Also, the Dead King pulls the worse deus ex machina in the series. He pops out of no where and wishes for 'hope' and the destruction of ancient Hyrule. He could have wished for anything better than that. Why not wish for Ganondorf to be destroyed for eternity and everything to be good from now on? Nope, he goes "Hyrule sucks, and I wish for these kids to probably not die..." I thought the ending was incredible because the message was (are we really spoiler tagging a decade-old game?) "Move beyond the past." Link was never supposed to resurrect the old Hyrule, because its time was over. Both Ganondorf and the King were obsessed with the past (Ganondorf with reclaiming Hyrule and a centuries-old meaningless grudge, the King with old prophecy and a dead kingdom, both of them with comparing WW Link to the Hero of Time) when they were simply a pair of old men with nothing left. It's why the game starts with a recap of Ocarina of Time as a musty old legend, and ends with Link sailing away from his home in search for a new legend to call his own. In a way it felt like it was directly addressing the fans who hated WW for not being Ocarina 2 before launch, saying "Don't get upset because this isn't your Hyrule. It's going to be the Hyrule for the next generation."
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Jan 26, 2013 00:06
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Rake Arms posted:I thought all the negativity around Wind Waker was only before release. Seriously, how can you not fall in love with that game by the end of Dragon Roost Cavern? The forced stealth section that came before it. Wind Waker is my favorite Zelda game, but it has by far the worst opening dungeon.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:07
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The only thing I hated about Windwaker was the Statue side quest with the camera. You could only carry 3 pictures with you at once and if you missed one of the one time only guys who were not bosses you were poo poo out of luck. They also gave you no warning either that some of those background NPCs might not be seen again. Also some of the islands were bullshit throwaway ideas.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:07
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God I hope Majora's Mask gets a 3ds remake. I hate hate hate having to constantly open the menu to swap out items. The Masks probably shouldn't have been c-button items.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:21
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Wind Waker should have let you warp to more islands and not had the last chunk of the game be a tedious loving scavenger hunt on your slow-rear end boat.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:23
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The Triforce Hunt is the most nonlinear a Zelda game has ever been, so quit asking for nonlinearity in Zelda games unless you want more of that.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:32
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RentCavalier posted:Wind Waker should have let you warp to more islands and not had the last chunk of the game be a tedious loving scavenger hunt on your slow-rear end boat. Actually, they probably shouldn't let you warp too much. Twilight Princess had an insane level of warp points. As a result, I warped constantly and missed out on part of the fun of running across the countryside. Ocarina of Time did it well. Skyward Sword did it well. There were an okay number of warp points, and areas were well connected. So, if you have too many warp points, people won't sail at all and then they'll feel the boat is just a complete waste of time all together. I thought sailing was kind of fun  Also CrushedB, I like your interpretation of the ending of Wind Waker. I guess I can buy that, but it still felt so anticlimatic and made Link's efforts seem pointless.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:32
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RentCavalier posted:Wind Waker should have let you warp to more islands and not had the last chunk of the game be a tedious loving scavenger hunt on your slow-rear end boat. Runaway Five posted:Actually, they probably shouldn't let you warp too much. Twilight Princess had an insane level of warp points. As a result, I warped constantly and missed out on part of the fun of running across the countryside. I think Phantom Hourglass did it well, it was pretty much the same as OoT, except you drew on a blackboard instead of playing a song and it transported your boat to a specific point in the ocean. It was still in the ocean though, so you had to steer your ship the rest of the way. It cut down on travel time while still letting you experience the ocean/ blow up pirates.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:48
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RentCavalier posted:Wind Waker should have let you warp to more islands and not had the last chunk of the game be a tedious loving scavenger hunt on your slow-rear end boat. This is 100% true.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:52
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Make every landmass twice as big and I'm all-in with Wind Waker. But it's still an awesome game, and to have it be so good after how much poo poo it got before release was the ultimate "gently caress you, I'll show you" moment from Nintendo (nevermind that its art style has come to partially define the series as of late)
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Jan 26, 2013 00:56
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So, how much of the Triforce quest is due to the game being rushed? All of it? vvv: Well I know for a fact Wind Waker was rushed to hell, so it always seemed to be more of a "Fuuuuck we can't complete our last few dungeons/gameplay ideas so let's just throw in this ocean hunt" thing to me. Meowywitch fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Jan 26, 2013 |
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Jan 26, 2013 00:57
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The Triforce hunt seemed more like a squeeze for more gametime, not really something they weren't able to fully implement.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:09
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The art style of Wind Waker is pretty remarkable because other than WW and Skyward Sword every other 3D Zelda looks like total dogshit now. I'm tempted to get a 3DS just so I can play OoT without looking at the Gamecube or N64 versions because they both are hideous.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:10
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I always feel eternally blessed that the first time I played Wind Waker I had already found like 5 or 6 of the Triforce pieces just sidequestin' on my own throughout the game by the point at the end when there's nothing else to do.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:19
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CrushedB posted:I always feel eternally blessed that the first time I played Wind Waker I had already found like 5 or 6 of the Triforce pieces just sidequestin' on my own throughout the game by the point at the end when there's nothing else to do. Huh, I didn't even know you could get them early. My wish is that you'll be able to accidentally do poo poo like this all the time in Zelda U.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:22
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Rake Arms posted:Huh, I didn't even know you could get them early. My wish is that you'll be able to accidentally do poo poo like this all the time in Zelda U. The first time I found a chart in Wind Waker saying "YOU FOUND A CHART LEADING YOU TO THE TRIFORCE" I nearly dropped my controller in shock. I thought I had stumbled onto some crazy Triforce-in-OoT-rumors sidequest.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:25
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Rake Arms posted:I thought all the negativity around Wind Waker was only before release. Seriously, how can you not fall in love with that game by the end of Dragon Roost Cavern? Hardcore motherfuckers want their favorite games to grow dark and mature because god knows they won't. Fergus Mac Roich posted:The art style of Wind Waker is pretty remarkable because other than WW and Skyward Sword every other 3D Zelda looks like total dogshit now. I'm tempted to get a 3DS just so I can play OoT without looking at the Gamecube or N64 versions because they both are hideous. Obligatory Toast fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Jan 26, 2013 |
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Jan 26, 2013 01:33
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CrushedB posted:I always feel eternally blessed that the first time I played Wind Waker I had already found like 5 or 6 of the Triforce pieces just sidequestin' on my own throughout the game by the point at the end when there's nothing else to do. I've always believed that this was the intended Windwaker experience. You're supposed to be exploring the game the whole time, filling in your map, seeing what's on the various islands, etc. You can find all but 2 Triforce pieces before doing the Wind Temple (those two need the Hookshot). It's not supposed to be a padding thing that forces you to spend time doing something tedious at the end of the game. You're supposed to be doing it all along because exploring the sea is fun. Not that I would say no to them putting back in any cut content, but I don't think the Triforce hunt is a direct result of things being removed from the game.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:52
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Regy Rusty posted:It's not supposed to be a padding thing that forces you to spend time doing something tedious at the end of the game. You're supposed to be doing it all along because exploring the sea is fun. If that's the case, the game needs to encourage the player to explore (i.e. not tell them exactly where to go next in the story). I love the feeling of watching the plot unfold on my first playthrough of a new Zelda, but even more, I love the feeling having just witnessed a crucial plot development, and not know where the gently caress to go next. It's like you're reading a really great "Choose Your Own Adventure" novel, but with the page jumps unmarked. So someone's in peril or whatever, and you're desperately trying to find the next page, but instead you find a bunch of optional chapters filled with neat poo poo. Tangent: Now that I think about it, TP's faults aside, the plot actually develops at a great pace for the first half (after the 5 hour tutorial), and has some pretty great cutscenes too.
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Jan 26, 2013 02:19
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Regy Rusty posted:I've always believed that this was the intended Windwaker experience. You're supposed to be exploring the game the whole time, filling in your map, seeing what's on the various islands, etc. You can find all but 2 Triforce pieces before doing the Wind Temple (those two need the Hookshot). It's not supposed to be a padding thing that forces you to spend time doing something tedious at the end of the game. You're supposed to be doing it all along because exploring the sea is fun. Getting treasure was far too tedious and annoying for me to ever do it other than when I was forced to. Maybe if they made the spots larger (and not fade away when you're near them) and had the animations go much, much faster, I would be inclined to do so.
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Jan 26, 2013 02:23
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Rake Arms posted:If that's the case, the game needs to encourage the player to explore (i.e. not tell them exactly where to go next in the story). I think it does do enough to encourage you to explore! For the first part of the game (up to the Tower of the Gods) you're constantly pushed from objective to objective by the King of the Red Lions. You can branch off and start exploring after the Forest Dungeon, but most players probably won't do it much, especially since you can't warp until after the Tower of the Gods. However, once you return from Ancient Hyrule the game opens up. You get two markings on your map telling you to check out the two temples, but otherwise the sea is yours to explore. And you're encouraged to do so since you have to do the following things to get into the next dungeon: gain the ability to warp, get the ice and fire arrows, find the ice and fire islands to get the required tools, and figure out who you need to find and bring to the temples. How is this not an invitation to start exploring? What more do we really ask from the game than the freedom to go wherever we want and a few clues to hint at how to continue the plot? It caused me to check out where I could warp too, see what islands were around those areas. I also check out any islands on the way to my specific goals, or even a bit out of the way when I happen to be near an unfilled map square. Along the way I would find treasure charts, pieces of hearts, and (most importantly) Triforce Charts. I guess it really boils down to this - if you enjoy sailing around and checking out islands and will do so when the game gives you the freedom to, Windwaker feels like an excellently paced game. But if you're determined to just go from plot event to event as quickly as possible, then yes the last part of the game will feel like a grind. Edit: I do want to say that I don't defend their decision to have you pay Tingle exorbitant sums to translate the maps. While it's true that if you do what I just described, you'll always have plenty of cash it's still a stupid addition. I'm pretty sure its purpose was one tried out solution to the "I have too many rupees" problem that always plagues the series. It's just not a good one. Skyward Sword finally solved that in a really good way with the upgrade system. Regy Rusty fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jan 26, 2013 |
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Jan 26, 2013 02:36
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The sailing theme is what made exploring the ocean so great. I can listen to that song all day. It made up for the mostly emptiness of the ocean.
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Jan 26, 2013 02:54
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Regy Rusty posted:I guess it really boils down to this - if you enjoy sailing around and checking out islands and will do so when the game gives you the freedom to, Windwaker feels like an excellently paced game. But if you're determined to just go from plot event to event as quickly as possible, then yes the last part of the game will feel like a grind.
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Jan 26, 2013 03:56
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Trademarked posted:The sailing theme is what made exploring the ocean so great. I can listen to that song all day. It made up for the mostly emptiness of the ocean. WW has my favorite soundtrack out of all the Zelda games and that's quite the accomplishment. Nearly every track is fantastic. I hope they pack in a fully orchestrated WW soundtrack or something as a pre-order bonus.
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Jan 26, 2013 04:07
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:The art style of Wind Waker is pretty remarkable because other than WW and Skyward Sword every other 3D Zelda looks like total dogshit now. I'm tempted to get a 3DS just so I can play OoT without looking at the Gamecube or N64 versions because they both are hideous.
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Jan 26, 2013 05:01
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I was thinking about the portable Zelda games today, how much fun I had playing Link's Awakening and the Oracles and even Spirit Tracks (gently caress Phantom Hourglass though), but I remember practically nothing about Minish Cap. Like, I have a completed game save on the cart with a bunch of the figurines and kinstones completed but I can't remember a single dungeon or anything. I guess I should go back and replay it because I do remember it being great and playing it obsessively back upon release.
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Jan 26, 2013 05:09
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Regy Rusty posted:Edit: I do want to say that I don't defend their decision to have you pay Tingle exorbitant sums to translate the maps. While it's true that if you do what I just described, you'll always have plenty of cash it's still a stupid addition. I'm pretty sure its purpose was one tried out solution to the "I have too many rupees" problem that always plagues the series. It's just not a good one. Skyward Sword finally solved that in a really good way with the upgrade system. It's not necessarily a great way to go about it, but that's also a means of encouraging exploration. You can't even hold enough money to pay him if you haven't gotten at least one of the wallet upgrades, and you're unlikely to have enough unless you've been making use of those treasure maps you've been finding throughout the game.
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Jan 26, 2013 05:21
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Trademarked posted:The sailing theme is what made exploring the ocean so great. I can listen to that song all day. It made up for the mostly emptiness of the ocean. This might sound weird, but I actually loved the empty feeling of the ocean. It felt like a vast, giant world to me with all kinds of secrets out there, just waiting for me to find them. No game has ever been able to mimic that intense feeling that came over me as an island's intimidating silhouette popped up on the horizon, just tempting me to go explore the gently caress out of it if I could. The only game that's come anywhere near close to making me want to explore that much was Minecraft, before it really dawned on me how empty the game is. I was really excited for Skyward Sword to reapproach that sort of open overworld with lots to explore in it, but there was nothing in it but Skyloft, a pumpkin bar, 2 lame minigame islands and a bunch of rocks with heart pieces that required no effort more to obtain than getting the right tool from a dungeon to open a gate. (SS is still my second-favorite 3D Zelda, though.) Some things that possibly could have helped the game would have been a few more random elements out on the sea. It was pretty cool to run into the diver guys out in the middle of nowhere and go "hey, I'm not alone out here!" It could have been friggin' awesome if they had, say, boats sailing around and you could go up and talk to random NPCs sailing around on them. If they're going to do multiplayer for the Wii U Zelda, they seriously could just gank the Tingle Tuner from Wind Waker and give it more to do and a better on-screen presence than a cursor and you'd have something great. In fact, if the HD Wind Waker remake doesn't let you toss the gamepad to a friend to be Tingle while you're swording around as Link I will be really upset.
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Jan 26, 2013 05:25
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I can't be the first person who's thought of the comparison between Zelda 1 and Dark Souls. Start of in the middle of an unknown world, get very little hints or directions where to go, and through exploration and discovery find your way to fulfill a prophecy. A new Zelda game more like that would do amazing with the older fanbase, but be almost completely inaccessible to most WiiU owners.
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Jan 26, 2013 05:30
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Oh man, an HD Remake of Windwaker on the WiiU? I was going to just go get a game cube from a resale shop nearby so I could still play WindWaker after I got my WiiU, but now I'm just gonna sit tight for the remake! And yeah, I'm gonna second the sailing theme for making the whole sailing trip worth it. I'm glad I'm not the only one that sorta liked boatin' around.
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Jan 26, 2013 05:37
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The solution to WW's sailing problem that my stupid little kid past self came up with was an item called the Wind Sail, you get full speed no matter what direction you face and a boost for the same direction as the wind. Through I like sailing and don't like the solution they had in the NDS games.
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Jan 26, 2013 06:38
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pentyne posted:I can't be the first person who's thought of the comparison between Zelda 1 and Dark Souls. Start of in the middle of an unknown world, get very little hints or directions where to go, and through exploration and discovery find your way to fulfill a prophecy. So besides Dark Souls, are there any games that do exactly what you're describing? Hell, if I were a game designer, that's practically the first line of a good design document.
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Jan 26, 2013 07:00
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VanSandman posted:So besides Dark Souls, are there any games that do exactly what you're describing? Hell, if I were a game designer, that's practically the first line of a good design document. Shadows of the Colossus. The Zelda franchise is too rigid and established to allow much more then mixing up dungeon order and trying to design unique overworlds. I just find it interesting a game like Dark Souls is getting such tremendous praise for its design when technical limitations 25 years ago yielded a similar product that started the Zelda franchise.
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Jan 26, 2013 07:12
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I think Dark Souls gets as much praise as it does because of how much it evokes games like Zelda and Metroid. That's one of the things that's so good about it. Lots of games have that feeling of freedom and exploration, it's just that they're mostly older.
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Jan 26, 2013 07:16
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Regy Rusty posted:I'm pretty sure its purpose was one tried out solution to the "I have too many rupees" problem that always plagues the series. It's just not a good one. Seriously why have they not re-implemented this.
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Jan 26, 2013 07:25
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pentyne posted:Shadows of the Colossus. The game lays out all of the controls and mechanics once you gain control of Wander, during the ride to the first colossus, and the climb up to him. The game explains everything to you. I don't even think Dark Souls tells you where the gently caress to go next.
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