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Yesterday I've had a meeting with my "boss'" boss (it's complicated, I'm actually being paid by another person) about a position he sees me in within his team. Not the really exciting one they had in a  country with a different culture and a super-useful language to learn, that one would be covered remotely by another colleague for now. Instead, this would be more evolutionary development, but overall a good move career-wise.However it would clearly result in increased responsibility and accountability, but when I brought up the salary, I got what I think is a pretty standard spiel about this being a lateral move and needing to step up first to demonstrate the value, blah blah. As someone who's taken part in deciding starting salaries for some of my current team members, I can of course see this side as well, but still I'm looking out for my interests here so I'd want, say, a 15% bump (these are small potatoes, absolutely speaking). I'm concerned that if I don't get it now, when the next salary reviews come up, I'd either get "sorry, can't give you more than 5% without a promotion, and that's not happening" or there'll be a salary freeze because our margin is 0.5% below the target, not to mention being underpaid this whole time. Additionally, my current boss's been trying to get me a company car. I don't see that happening any time soon due to budget reasons, but nobody needs to know this  .So, how does this sound? I have a track record of "stepping up", being proactive, getting very positive evaluations and feedback, which is what got me to this point. This gives me some level of trust that would warrant an immediate increase, although I'd be willing to split it for some of it now, and some after a review in, say, 3 months. Plus a car (not immediately as there are some contractual prerequisites). Any other ideas I could try using?
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| # ? Jan 30, 2013 09:41 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 14:24 |
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"Please do more work and take on more responsibilities for us for no extra pay." It's not a promotion unless you're getting paid more. They're hoping you're a big enough sucker to fall for their scheme.
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| # ? Jan 30, 2013 15:02 |
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Well yeah, they're explicitly trying to make this a "lateral move" and not a promotion, so this is clear. As you say though, the problem is still the "do more work for no extra pay" part, which is what I'm trying to talk myself out of.
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| # ? Jan 30, 2013 17:03 |
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No, you're trying to justify doing more work for less pay. Your employers won't respect you for doing more work and taking on more responsibilities for no extra pay. They'll see you as a sucker.
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| # ? Jan 30, 2013 18:32 |
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i would say that I understand I need to demonstrate that I can bring added value in the new role before a salary increase can be justified, but you would like to lay out your own expectations of a future increase before you can accept a new position.
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| # ? Jan 30, 2013 23:03 |
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mobby_6kl posted:However it would clearly result in increased responsibility and accountability, but when I brought up the salary, I got what I think is a pretty standard spiel about this being a lateral move and needing to step up first to demonstrate the value, blah blah. I'm in the same situation. I've been doing managerial work since last September and have been paid the same. My annual review is in two weeks, so I get to find out whether or not I'll continue getting paid $10k less than the people I manage. 
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| # ? Feb 3, 2013 05:45 |
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Agro ver Haus doom posted:No, you're trying to justify doing more work for less pay. I must've expressed myself poorly at some point, because I'm doing the opposite - I don't want to do more work for the same pay. What I do want, however, is that job (because it would allow me to learn, grow, and put more impressive stuff on my resume) with more money. I could've been naive before, but I've been through this Hand of the King posted:I'm in the same situation. I've been doing managerial work since last September and have been paid the same. My annual review is in two weeks, so I get to find out whether or not I'll continue getting paid $10k less than the people I manage.  my way, then I got an above-average yearly cost-of-living adjustment, and then finally a proper adjustment.Aaaanyway. That position that another colleague was supposed to take over remotely? Yeah, they changed their minds and want someone on location  . I had a 15 minute call with the hiring manager which was in pretty general terms, but went very well. They must be pretty desperate if they're considering to fly in people from halfway across the world even if they don't speak any of the languages they're looking for. If this works out, I'll probably need some help not getting screwed on it, but this already puts me in a much better position - either I take it because it's awesome, I use it to negotiate more money from the first option, and in the worst case, I'll be where I am now.
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| # ? Feb 3, 2013 16:08 |
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First, if you would really rather have the second job in the air, don't chip up and go for the safe "lateral" job while there is still a reasonable chance of doing what you want to do. Regarding negotiating for the more lateral position: Make a list of the additional responsibilities/authorities of the new job over your current one, and I mean write it down so you can't forget them while you are discussing this with whomever is making the hiring decision. That list is the basis for greater compensation. If you can get agreement that you are indeed taking on more responsibility, then you can use that as why you should be paid more money and avoid getting sucked into lateral transfer versus promotion. If the conversation starts going down that path, you can agree that regarding the corporate structure it is essentially a lateral movement, and then pivot right back to more responsibility = more pay. If you get the we will evaluate your performance on the job after you have been at it for a while, ask for details of how long and how much of a potential raise. Then ask for it in writing because 6 months down the road, you don't want to be bringing up a conversation that honestly your boss may not remember.
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| # ? Feb 28, 2013 06:23 |
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Thanks, JN, that's a very comprehensive guide  I went ahead with a "lateral" position because the clock was ticking, it boiled down to the last case -- we agreed on a review in 3 months and a 10% raise if I meet the expectations. Which is fair enough, I was asking for 15% but that would put me over top edge of the range on the local glassdoor thingie. Still, I'm not laying off the other job -- the worst that can happen is I piss someone off a bit if I end up getting it. However I'm quite surprised to still be in the middle of this at this point, the whole thing's turning into a bit of a farce, really. I had another phone interview regarding the "good" position (with a different person)... like two weeks ago. A few days later I brought this up with my current manager, who said he'd talk to the hiring manager (who is his peer in that region) about getting me in, which he said did. The day after that he disappears on sick leave and is still away now without as much as a single email from him or anyone else. Last week I wrote a thank you/what's up email to the hiring managers, again with no response until now. Grapewine says that they're looking to hire someone local who doesn't fit the posted requirements, but the position is still open. This is really quite disappointing - I'd understand if I was unqualified, but while this job is step up on paper, I'm already doing here (with glowing feedback) almost exactly what they want me to be doing there. I had one director who I'm often working with recommend me initially, and my direct manager weighted in as well. The first guy even brought this up to to his manager (who is the hiring team's boss as well), because he's a stakeholder and needs someone in the place who can handle this poo poo. poo poo, what a clusterfuck.
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| # ? Mar 12, 2013 20:44 |
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Hand of the King posted:I'm in the same situation. I've been doing managerial work since last September and have been paid the same. My annual review is in two weeks, so I get to find out whether or not I'll continue getting paid $10k less than the people I manage. A month-old update: They ended up giving me a 3.5% merit increase, 5% promotion increase, and 15% equity adjustment for a total of 23.5% increase in pay. I guess it sort of worked out.
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| # ? Mar 14, 2013 16:38 |
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Glad to hear things worked out in your favor, Hand of the King. I'm in a similar situation right now, and could use your input.... I am currently in my final semester of a 2-year, full-time MBA. Last spring around this time, I clicked a random "apply for internship" link on LinkedIn and wound up landing a pretty solid marketing gig. I worked full-time through the summer, and then have been pulling 30-ish hours a week since late August of last year while going to school. The internship started as the masters level equivalent of making coffee and copies, but over the last year I've had a huge increase in responsibility. About a month back, my boss's boss indicates that the company would like to bring me on full-time as either a brand manager or a senior analyst. He says my boss will start on a few job descriptions for me and I can see which I like best. At this point, it would be a "lateral" move in that I'd be doing the same work as I am now, just at a 400% pay increase, which I kinda, y'know, Want. Fast forward two weeks and my boss swings by my cube to tell me that she hasn't written anything, and that I can write my own description and get the director to approve it. I do that, and two more weeks later he tells me that senior management is still deciding, but that they definitely want me...either as an employee with salary + benefits or as a full-time consultant for extra cash and no benefits, either of which suits me fine. It has been six weeks now since their first "offer" and still no sign of confirmation. I even gave a briefing to the SVP of the division today and afterwards asked him what was up with my future job, only to get a vague, "We're working something out." To top it off, the rest of the office is starting to notice. Some folks in HR today offered to put me in contact with some headhunters they know because they think top management is being dickish. I like the company, and the work I do, and they're still giving me more responsibility on a weekly basis, but this indecision is starting to look like prevarication. How would you suggest I politely let them know that the clock is ticking, and they need to stop being so goddamn coy? (Or hurry up and crush my hopes and dreams already so I can go find another job)
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| # ? Mar 15, 2013 00:58 |
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Hand of the King posted:A month-old update: They ended up giving me a 3.5% merit increase, 5% promotion increase, and 15% equity adjustment for a total of 23.5% increase in pay. Congrats, 23.5% sounds pretty good, but that does depend on how grossly you were underpaid previously. You seem to have the benefit of being able to see some of these people face to face, so I'd try to corner one of the decision in a coffee corner or after a meeting and just tactfully ask what's going on, for example by inquiring if they have any concerns about you taking this position. My thinking here is that while whatever you do is unlikely to actually make a difference on their decision, but at least you might get some information out of them, and if they do have some legitimate concerns, you might have a chance to address them somehow. But what do I know, that's pretty much what I did in an email, only to be completely ignored for another two weeks . This poo poo is getting better and better by the day, I'm now effectively onboarding a new guy who would be reporting to me if I were hired, remotely, over a 6 hour time difference. They also want to roll out a new system in the region. A system in which, of course, I've bee a key player in this region and know inside-out. Just how difficult are they willing to make their lives by not just having me take care of this?
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| # ? Mar 19, 2013 08:05 |
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Sometimes it takes people make their lives more difficult before they promote you. Don't make the mistake of thinking these people are better than you or capable of evaluating your self worth, even with all the things you are responsible for. They oftentimes wont realize what they are missing until you are gone and then they are playing catch up until their own jobs are on the line.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2013 02:46 |
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Welp, looks like it's finally over. It took a few more weeks and another email with my director in CC to get a response, which was that they'll be bringing in a local, but external person to fill the position. Apparently, the key advantages were stakeholder management and communication skills, which were somehow judged based on a short phone interview; being on location, even though I explicitly said I that I can be on the next plane over; and knowledge of some local languages, which is fair enough, though as I said, in this company everyone falls back to English 90% of the time so making that 99% for a while wouldn't make much of a difference.ONEMANWOLFPACK posted:Sometimes it takes people make their lives more difficult before they promote you. Don't make the mistake of thinking these people are better than you or capable of evaluating your self worth, even with all the things you are responsible for. They oftentimes wont realize what they are missing until you are gone and then they are playing catch up until their own jobs are on the line. Based on some rumors I've hear from other sources, this person will be leaving some gaps in the requirements as they were posted, so maybe another position will open up soon once they realize this. Otherwise, I may need to reexamine my medium-term strategy .
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| # ? Mar 25, 2013 10:26 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 14:24 |
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I'm happy to report success. They brought me on earlier this week and told me that I would be up for a review and possible promotion within 6-12 months. I followed up relentlessly with my direct manager, and did corner the SVP to ask him if he had any concerns, which he did not. Ultimately the issue was just getting the president and CEO in the same room at the same time to tell one another that they liked my work.
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| # ? May 7, 2013 23:20 |
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