February UK Megathread - Lets run this country into the ground.

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > February UK Megathread - Lets run this country into the ground.

Zero Gravitas: Jun 17, 2008; BUT GUYS I ONLY WANT TO COMBAT LIBERALISM

Valentines Day Special

Labour was red, Tories are blue, Lib Dems were yellow, but now all three are blue.

A new month, new thread, etc, etc.

In the news this week:

George Osborne,man at the helm of the increasingly rusty and leaking ship UK Economy, proclaims that more austerity is needed and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the one-size-fits-all economic plan that has resulted in a stagnant, flatlined economy for the last three years. Industrial output has returned to a level not seen since 1992 and we are looking down the barrel of a triple dip recession, but continuing on with such massive cuts in a short time period (despite rising expenditure because we need to pay for all those people being put out of work!) is still a good idea - although the IMF admits that they hosed up and that the impact of austerity is actually about three times that that they originally calculated due to fiscal multipliers.

Restrictions on the EU right to Freedom of Movement of citizens of Romania and Bulgaria expire this week, resulting in plans being formulated for xenophobic posters being produced by the government to dissuade Romanians and Bulgarians from coming to England to look for work.

And finally Starbucks throw their rattle out of the pram in a display of (paraphrased)

We wont invest in any more Starbucks coffee houses in the UK if we actually have to pay tax! We're a special snowflake and we deserve to pay your filthy government NOTHING!

This is despite Starbucks only having paid Ł9m in tax in the 14 years theyve been in the UK, compared to Costa coffee paying Ł15m in tax last year alone.

Please stick to Trainchat and MonsterMunchChat, Boatchat never ends well.

Previous UK Threads

BOGOF Dec '12/ Jan '13 thread with such highlights as my terrible landlady stealing my underwear to make sure I returned the keys and Trickjaw's fight against the bastards of the Work Program.

Two for the price of one October and November '12 thread

September '12 thread.

August '12 thread.

July '12 thread (with links to previous threads and Iohannes definitive Minimum Alcohol Pricing post).

Please keep in mind the following:

quote:

1. It's not a person's fault if they are poor;
2. It's not their fault if they are disabled;
3. Neo-liberalism doesn't work;
4. The Daily Mail lies (maybe even about Nick Clegg and charity);
5. Neo-liberalism has never worked;
6. The British Empire was not a force for good;
7. Neo-liberalism will never work;
8. Transgendered people are not "men in dresses";
9. Gendered insults are not ok;
10. If something is "so gay" it had better be something that is really happy;
11. Trains are awesome;
12. The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.
13. ACAB.
14. Stephen Fry is a monster (possibly)

Particularly keep in mind these threads have been watched and posters have received a visit from the Old Bill as a result of political opinions expressed in D&D.

The UK threads have been accused in the past of jumping on people who dont conform to the view of the thread. We actually welcome newcomers but expect a certain investment and that includes citing sources to back up your arguments beyond a he said /she said basis. You will probably get some stick if all you can offer in an argument is a second or third hand anecdote while other people are citing census data or scientific studies, for example.

Zero Gravitas fucked around with this message at Feb 1, 2013 around 13:33

# ? Feb 1, 2013 12:49

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# ? May 25, 2013 03:11

Tragic Peculiar: May 22, 2008

Transplanting this from the old thread, as it's a really lovely way to start the month. Labour continues to somehow find ways to be worse:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...abour-says.html

the Torygraph posted:

People who abuse troops must face tougher punishments, Labour says
Abusing members of the Armed Forces should be treated as a hate crime, Labour MPs will say in the Commons today.

Thomas Docherty. Labour MP for Dunfermline and West Fife, has a private members bill which aims to increase the punishments given to anyone who commits a crime against service personnel.

It would put members of the Armed Forces in the same bracket as disabled, gay, transgender and ethnic minority crime victims.

Mr Docherty’s amendment to the Criminal Justice Act would mean that offences committed towards serving troops, their families, veterans members of the reserve forces would be treated as “aggravated”.

Jim Murphy, the shadow defence secretary, said it was “unacceptable” that members of the Armed Forces face abuse in the UK.

He said that the Government “should protect” troops.

“We must protect those who protect our nation,” Mr Murphy, the MP for East Renfrewshire, said. “It is unacceptable some service people face abuse. This is an important part of a wider campaign to prevent discrimination against our heroes.

“They serve us, we should protect them.”

A poll of troops last year found that nearly one in 20 members of the Armed Forces said they had experienced violence or threats of violence.

Of the troops polled, around per cent also said that members of the public had shouted abuse at them while they were wearing their uniform.

Philip Hammond, the Defence Secretary, last year conceded that there was “still more we can do” to ensure that troops are treated “with the dignity they deserve”.

Another survey carried out last year found that almost one in five military personnel has been refused service in pubs, hotels and shops because they were in uniform.

In one case highlighted by the report, a member of the Royal Navy was told by his son’s head teacher to stop wearing his uniform on the school run because it “upset the parents”.

A female RAF recruiter said that on more than one occasion members of the public have screamed “baby killer” at her as she walked to work in her uniform.

The study also disclosed how servicemen and women face discrimination such as being refused mortgages and even mobile phone contracts as a result of being in the Armed Forces.

That bolded quote just reminds me of one of those twisted aphorisms like this one which Zizek quoted:

Zizek posted:

Asked about the German concentration camps in occupied Poland, ‘Concentration Camp’ Erhardt (in Lubitsch’s To Be or Not to Be) snaps back: ‘We do the concentrating, and the Poles do the camping.’

or the less highbrow

Terry Pratchett posted:

Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote.

Tragic Peculiar fucked around with this message at Feb 1, 2013 around 12:56

# ? Feb 1, 2013 12:52

glitchkrieg: Dec 10, 2004; "Paranoia is just reality on a finer scale."

So you have to post a reply now to add a thread to your bookmarks?

# ? Feb 1, 2013 12:53

Fluo: May 25, 2007; Dank Tea.

mfcrocker posted:

Final prod to come drinking with us if you're in the Bristol area. 8pm, Hatchet.

Just quoting it for the new thread.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 12:55

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

quote:

A poll of troops last year found that nearly one in 20 members of the Armed Forces said they had experienced violence or threats of violence.

Of the troops polled, around per cent also said that members of the public had shouted abuse at them while they were wearing their uniform.

Philip Hammond, the Defence Secretary, last year conceded that there was “still more we can do” to ensure that troops are treated “with the dignity they deserve”.

Another survey carried out last year found that almost one in five military personnel has been refused service in pubs, hotels and shops because they were in uniform.

In one case highlighted by the report, a member of the Royal Navy was told by his son’s head teacher to stop wearing his uniform on the school run because it “upset the parents”.

This makes me feel a little better about the British public

Shame the anger against the government's policies won't translate into real change at elections, though.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 12:59

Crameltonian: Mar 27, 2010

Tragic Peculiar posted:

Transplanting this from the old thread, as it's a really lovely way to start the month. Labour continues to somehow find ways to be worse:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...abour-says.html

That bolded quote just reminds me of one of those twisted aphorisms like this one which Zizek quoted:

or the less highbrow

Okay, if members of the armed forces are being denied mortgages for some reason (which I kinda doubt) then that's obviously not on. However this seems to be worded in a way that makes criticising anything the armed forces do ever exactly as bad as beating someone to death for being gay or bombing a mosque. So our boys are Brave Heroes who can stand up to anything but at the same time are delicate and need to be insulated from any criticism.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 12:59

Larry_Mullet: Sep 8, 2012

quote:

“They serve us, we should protect them.”

Said a banker...

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:04

penus de milo: Mar 9, 2002; CHAR CHAR

A good way to be denied a mortgage is to not own a house on account of the British Army came in and blew it up.

edit: also lol a soldier encountering conflict or threats of violence who would have thought it

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:05

KayTee: May 5, 2012

glitchkrieg posted:

So you have to post a reply now to add a thread to your bookmarks?

There's a little star in the bottom left

Down there:
|
|
|
\/

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:06

penus de milo: Mar 9, 2002; CHAR CHAR

I'm only posting this so it looks like you're pointing to Gordo the Poond Man

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:08

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

But Gordo isn't in the left

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:09

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

From the last thread:

A Sloth posted:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21267262

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21276584

http://news.yahoo.com/poland-no-pro...54--finance.htm

The Polish plant is owned by the ABP Food Group which is also denying that the horsemeat came from it's Polish operation. International burger capitalism!

Larry loving Goodman, Jesus Christ. How this gangster is still allowed to operate in the food industry is a loving mystery. It's surprisingly difficult to find good links to summarise it, but he was at the heart of a massive scandal in Ireland about 20 years ago surrounding fraud in the meat industry. Needless to say, he received no punishment whatsoever.
There's a copy of the Hamilton tribunal report from 1994 into his company here if you've got a lot of time on your hands

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:25

HauntedRobot: Jun 22, 2002; an excellent mod
a simple map to my heart
now give me tilt shift

Crameltonian posted:

Okay, if members of the armed forces are being denied mortgages for some reason (which I kinda doubt) then that's obviously not on. However this seems to be worded in a way that makes criticising anything the armed forces do ever exactly as bad as beating someone to death for being gay or bombing a mosque. So our boys are Brave Heroes who can stand up to anything but at the same time are delicate and need to be insulated from any criticism.

It's pretty clumsily handling from Labour that plays into the right's "left wing thought police" argument (specious as that argument is).

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:25

John Charity Spring: Nov 3, 2009; ACTIVATE THE QUEEN

From the last thread, continued

Coohoolin posted:

I think I may have meant to say "nationalist". He's obviously a socialist. The nationalism is a bit more quiet.

I believe he's in favour of Scottish independence but not from a nationalist perspective. It's important not to conflate the two.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:28

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; You know, that reminds me of a joke...

Zero Gravitas posted:

Valentines Day Special Labour was red, Tories are blue, Lib Dems were yellow, but now all three are blue.

A new month, new thread, etc, etc.

In the news this week:

George Osborne,man at the helm of the increasingly rusty and leaking ship UK Economy, proclaims that more austerity is needed and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the one-size-fits-all economic plan that has resulted in a stagnant, flatlined economy for the last three years. Industrial output has returned to a level not seen since 1992 and we are looking down the barrel of a triple dip recession, but continuing on with such massive cuts in a short time period (despite rising expenditure because we need to pay for all those people being put out of work!) is still a good idea - although the IMF admits that they hosed up and that the impact of austerity is actually about three times that that they originally calculated due to fiscal multipliers.

Bulgaria and Romania join the EU, resulting in plans being formulated for xenophobic posters being produced by the government to dissuade Romanians and Bulgarians from coming to England to look for work.

And finally Starbucks throw their rattle out of the pram in a display of (paraphrased) We wont invest in any more Starbucks coffee houses in the UK if we actually have to pay tax! We're a special snowflake and we deserve to pay your filthy government NOTHING! This is despite Starbucks only having paid Ł9m in tax in the 14 years theyve been in the UK, compared to Costa coffee paying Ł15m in tax last year alone.

Please stick to Trainchat and MonsterMunchChat, Boatchat never ends well.

Previous UK Threads

BOGOF Dec '12/ Jan '13 thread with such highlights as my terrible landlady stealing my underwear to make sure I returned the keys and Trickjaw's fight against the bastards of the Work Program.

Two for the price of one October and November '12 thread

September '12 thread.

August '12 thread.

July '12 thread (with links to previous threads and Iohannes definitive Minimum Alcohol Pricing post).

Please keep in mind the following:

Particularly keep in mind these threads have been watched and posters have received a visit from the Old Bill as a result of political opinions expressed in D&D.

The UK threads have been accused in the past of jumping on people who dont conform to the view of the thread. We actually welcome newcomers but expect a certain investment and that includes citing sources to back up your arguments beyond a he said /she said basis. You will probably get some stick if all you can offer in an argument is a second or third hand anecdote while other people are citing census data or scientific studies, for example.

Excellent round-up ZG, but just so you know, Romania and Bulgaria have been in EU since 2007 - what's happened now is the removal of the free movement restrictions placed upon Romanian and Bulgarian citizens. Hence the xenophobia appears when the people can start following the capital out of the country.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:31

pumpinglemma: Apr 28, 2009; DD: Fondly regard abomination.

The Torygraph posted:

Of the troops polled, around per cent also said that members of the public had shouted abuse at them while they were wearing their uniform.

Now I realise most newspapers are terrible with statistics, but I think this might be going a bit far even for them... (I also like how they say 5% of the armed forces have experienced violence or threats of violence but don't give the corresponding figure for the general population - probably because it's about 5%. And they don't give any numbers at all for being refused mortgages, which probably means it happened to one person in the entire survey.)

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:33

Zero Gravitas: Jun 17, 2008; BUT GUYS I ONLY WANT TO COMBAT LIBERALISM

Pesmerga posted:

Excellent round-up ZG, but just so you know, Romania and Bulgaria have been in EU since 2007 - what's happened now is the removal of the free movement restrictions placed upon Romanian and Bulgarian citizens. Hence the xenophobia appears when the people can start following the capital out of the country.

Thanks for the clarification, OP updated.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:33

Kaislioc: Feb 14, 2008

KayTee posted:

There's a little star in the bottom left

Down there:
|
|
|
\/

And the top too!

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:37

Quote-Unquote: Oct 21, 2002

Crameltonian posted:

Okay, if members of the armed forces are being denied mortgages for some reason (which I kinda doubt) then that's obviously not on.

When I applied for a mortgage they initially tried to reject it on account of being on anti-depressants, which according to them means that I am a suicide risk. I had to get my doctor to write to them to confirm that "no, NOT being on anti-depressants makes this guy a suicide risk". The same thing happened when I got life insurance.

I can see mortgage lenders refusing a mortgage or insurers refusing coverage on the grounds of "being more likely to die". Doesn't mean lenders/insurers aren't a bunch of shitbags, though.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:38

HauntedRobot: Jun 22, 2002; an excellent mod
a simple map to my heart
now give me tilt shift

Quote-Unquote posted:

When I applied for a mortgage they initially tried to reject it on account of being on anti-depressants, which according to them means that I am a suicide risk. I had to get my doctor to write to them to confirm that "no, NOT being on anti-depressants makes this guy a suicide risk". The same thing happened when I got life insurance.

That's loving outrageous.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:39

Crameltonian: Mar 27, 2010

HauntedRobot posted:

It's pretty clumsily handling from Labour that plays into the right's "left wing thought police" argument (specious as that argument is).

I can't see a single bit of this the right will object to besides not removing gays, ethnic minorities etc. as protected classes altogether. They loving love the thought police when it's directed at 'deserving' targets, I don't remember them screaming about 1984 when that guy was arrested for posting a picture of a burning poppy.

quote:

A good way to be denied a mortgage is to not own a house on account of the British Army came in and blew it up.

edit: also lol a soldier encountering conflict or threats of violence who would have thought it

I don't think you'll find much disagreement here about the British Army being poo poo but I don't think denying soldiers mortgages is the best way to combat imperialism. Maybe if you kicked the entire House of Commons out of their houses you might have a start. Hell, the bank responsible for the mortgage has most likely caused far more suffering than the average soldier. But eh, we're arguing about something which may have possibly happened once or twice ever if you squint.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:40

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.

John Charity Spring posted:

From the last thread, continued

I believe he's in favour of Scottish independence but not from a nationalist perspective. It's important not to conflate the two.

How do you differentiate? Not saying that I disagree, I'm curious about your views on the labels. I support independence for mostly socialist reasons, yet I still call myself a nationalist, despite being born in Oxford and raised in Switzerland (I trot this out when people accuse me of having seen Braveheart too many times).

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:41

Fluo: May 25, 2007; Dank Tea.

Coohoolin posted:

How do you differentiate? Not saying that I disagree, I'm curious about your views on the labels. I support independence for mostly socialist reasons, yet I still call myself a nationalist, despite being born in Oxford and raised in Switzerland (I trot this out when people accuse me of having seen Braveheart too many times).

You're a nationalist for Scotland when you were born in England and raised in Switzerland?

Erich Fromm posted:

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. Patriotism is its cult.

Dan Fried, US diplomat posted:

Nationalism ... is like cheap alcohol. First it makes you drunk, then it makes you blind, then it kills you.

Fluo fucked around with this message at Feb 1, 2013 around 13:56

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:47

John Charity Spring: Nov 3, 2009; ACTIVATE THE QUEEN

Coohoolin posted:

How do you differentiate? Not saying that I disagree, I'm curious about your views on the labels. I support independence for mostly socialist reasons, yet I still call myself a nationalist, despite being born in Oxford and raised in Switzerland (I trot this out when people accuse me of having seen Braveheart too many times).

For one thing, nationalism describes the position of many unionists just as much as it describes some separatist Scots. British nationalism is no less nationalistic just because it's slightly unificatory, and it doesn't mean the BNP either - all three main British parties are nationalist. I dislike nationalism in general as an exclusionary philosophy (although the mostly-civic nationalism espoused by the SNP is different from, say, Labour's One Nation shitpile); I support Scottish independence because I see it as the best chance (and a chance only, at that) to make some positive change in at least some part of the UK right now. I feel significantly more affinity for Gaeldom than for Scotland or Britain but not to the extent of wanting a ragged fringe of the Highlands and Islands to become independent.

I think reclaiming the idea of independence away from the nationalist label is a necessary step in the run-up to the referendum. I meet an awful lot of people who are sympathetic to independence but are not nationalists.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:49

Quote-Unquote: Oct 21, 2002

HauntedRobot posted:

That's loving outrageous.

It sucks, but I sort of understand it. I mean, they want to make sure that you're gonna pay your mortgage back. They won't give you one if they think you're going to up and kill yourself next week.

It's the same as how health/life insurance skyrockets if you make the mistake of admitting (as I did) that you like to smoke a cigar on new year's eve (it's a silly little tradition I have with some friends). Trouble is, if you don't declare that, and they later find out, they'll use that as evidence that you 'lied' when you said you were a non-smoker, and refuse to pay out any claim.

This is all an inevitable by product of moneylending and insurance being private institutions. And it totally sucks.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:55

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.

Yes Fluo, because Scottish nationalism is civic, as is Scottish identity. Although a Yes Campaign organiser told me to talk about "people living in Scotland" rather than "Scottish people" or "Scots".

It's down to political semantics, I guess. I agree with John that British nationalism is lovely, but my understanding (and what I was taught in university Sociology) is that of the various types of Nationalism (primordial, tribal, ethnic, historical, civic) Scottish nationalism is nothing other than Civic and therefore inclusive and internationalist. In the last thread I sent around a paper I'd written on secessionism and hegemony typefying two different general categories, and the distinction has important ideological grounds and implications. Nationalism isn't a catch-all term for patriotism either- I'm not a patriot, I greatly dislike Switzerland (my "homeland"), but I'm a Scottish Nationalist in the sense that I would vote SNP.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 13:59

mfcrocker: Jan 31, 2004; Jeeeeeeeealous?

Fluo posted:

Just quoting it for the new thread.

Cheers dude

come drink with us! (there's also rumbles of Keller afterwards)

Also please people stop falling into the Telegraph's trap of blaming Labour wholesale for this one. A Private Member's Bill is a piece of legislation raised by a backbencher, not the party. If Labour vote wholesale to support it then we should call them fucks for it.

It's not like there aren't 100 other reasons to call them fucks either.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:09

Crameltonian: Mar 27, 2010

mfcrocker posted:

Cheers dude come drink with us! (there's also rumbles of Keller afterwards)

Also please people stop falling into the Telegraph's trap of blaming Labour wholesale for this one. A Private Member's Bill is a piece of legislation raised by a backbencher, not the party. If Labour vote wholesale to support it then we should call them fucks for it.

It's not like there aren't 100 other reasons to call them fucks either.

The Shadow Defence Secretary seems to be in favour of it so it's safe to assume that this has the blessing of the Labour leadership, unless Milliband's stupid enough to let his ministers mouth off on whatever they feel like.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:18

Jippa: Feb 13, 2009

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21276423

This story is loving horrible, but some thing that really stood out to me was the reason for the hit in the first place.

"Richards and Hope had been paid by a businessman, angry over a collapsed property deal, to kill a father-of-four who lived in a neighbouring street."

Maybe I'm just completely naive but that seems such a trivial reason to kill some one over?

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:20

Fluo: May 25, 2007; Dank Tea.

Coohoolin posted:

Yes Fluo, because Scottish nationalism is civic, as is Scottish identity. Although a Yes Campaign organiser told me to talk about "people living in Scotland" rather than "Scottish people" or "Scots".

It's down to political semantics, I guess. I agree with John that British nationalism is lovely, but my understanding (and what I was taught in university Sociology) is that of the various types of Nationalism (primordial, tribal, ethnic, historical, civic) Scottish nationalism is nothing other than Civic and therefore inclusive and internationalist. In the last thread I sent around a paper I'd written on secessionism and hegemony typefying two different general categories, and the distinction has important ideological grounds and implications. Nationalism isn't a catch-all term for patriotism either- I'm not a patriot, I greatly dislike Switzerland (my "homeland"), but I'm a Scottish Nationalist in the sense that I would vote SNP.

I didn't claim nationalism is a catch-all term for patriotism however they are heavily linked. My mother is from Paisley,

There is many forms of nationalism like ethnocentrism, national purity, civic nationalism etc. Civic nationalism is a non-xenophobic form of nationalism, however United States of America was civic nationalism at the time of independence so it isn't by default a good thing.

Any form of nationalism, including civic nationalism is a form of tribalism which brings the group closer when, even if unmeaning to, push away others.

Sidenote: I'm for Scottish Independence but the blind defending of Alex Salmond is getting quite annoying and pointing out the what needs to be fixed with it and the problems that may come up (like with the EU) some how gets me labeled a Unionist which I find weird, the idea if you're not treating Alex Salmond like the second coming of christ you're against him. You can support a movement without being blind to the nationalism and not being critical when any politician is doing bad or is outright lying.
It seems to be reminding me of Cleggmania to a point (but not fully) when simply pointing out Vince Cable, Nick Clegg, Ed(ward) Davey, Chris Huhne, David Laws and alot of the top LibDems running are Orange Bookers.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:20

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; I'm a bloomin' mathematical genius!
BOOM BOOM!

Enjoy posted:

But Gordo isn't in the left

[McCaine/Bottom Left joke]

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:21

WastedJoker: Oct 29, 2011; Fiery the angels fell. Deep thunder rolled around their shoulders... burning with the fires of Orc.

Enjoy posted:

This makes me feel a little better about the British public Shame the anger against the government's policies won't translate into real change at elections, though.

It's ok to shout abuse at people because they're soldiers?

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:22

John Charity Spring: Nov 3, 2009; ACTIVATE THE QUEEN

Coohoolin posted:

It's down to political semantics, I guess. I agree with John that British nationalism is lovely, but my understanding (and what I was taught in university Sociology) is that of the various types of Nationalism (primordial, tribal, ethnic, historical, civic) Scottish nationalism is nothing other than Civic and therefore inclusive and internationalist.

Civic nationalism allows for the participation of 'outsiders' in the nationalist movement (since it does not define its nationalism along racial, cultural, or ethnic grounds) but it does entail putting the interests of the nation ahead of all others and is thus antithetical to internationalism. I have had some difficulty acknowledging this and still reconciling it with my own support for the break-up of the United Kingdom at this point in time, but it comes down to what I think is realistically achievable and any movement towards socialism seems more plausible in an independent Scotland than one which is still part of the UK. Even taking into account the neoliberal-flavoured social democracy of the SNP, who I regard as only a slightly lesser evil than the full-on neoliberal alternatives.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:23

Fluo: May 25, 2007; Dank Tea.

WastedJoker posted:

It's ok to shout abuse at people because they're soldiers?

I personally think it isn't, I myself almost up in the Army/Navy when I was 16 and a half and when I was in shape. However mental health saved me, looking back I was in no way the right mental state and if I was I would have not tried. It was one of those connections things that went around to schools, she come to Riverside (which was within a loving mental hospital) and looked at me GCSEs and saw I only had 3 (double science and maths which were D and E), and then talked about joining the armed forces.

I disagree with the wars and I find the Help the Heroes stealth Nationalism painful but generally there is many reasons people join the armed forces a part from "HURR HARRR

KILL ME SOME BABIES!". A lot of working class people have no other way, also with the apprenticeships being a complete joke to get into now. Also not having the cash for University or the grades. You're kind of hopeless. The armed forces seem like a good way to learn something like Engineering or something. However now with all the army cuts even that looks like its a complete joke to get into.

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:28

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

WastedJoker posted:

It's ok to shout abuse at people because they're soldiers?

Yep, they chose to sign up as baby killers.

Fluo posted:

generally there is many reasons people join the armed forces a part from "HURR HARRR KILL ME SOME BABIES!".

This is not a good attitude in my opinion. Human lives are never worth compromising over. It's more moral to be a welfare sponge or even a petty criminal.

Enjoy fucked around with this message at Feb 1, 2013 around 14:31

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:28

WastedJoker: Oct 29, 2011; Fiery the angels fell. Deep thunder rolled around their shoulders... burning with the fires of Orc.

Who else am I allowed to shout abuse at then?

Soldiers
Politicians
Oil executives

???

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:36

Fluo: May 25, 2007; Dank Tea.

Enjoy posted:

This is not a good attitude in my opinion. Human lives are never worth compromising over. It's more moral to be a welfare sponge or even a petty criminal.

It was satire on how some people think the reason people join armed forces is because they want to go around killing babies.

You're attacking the lower class and the pawns of war, rather then the old men in Westminster who starts them. If politicians stopped being trigger happy on starting wars then maybe they could do a lot more good for the world.

Fluo fucked around with this message at Feb 1, 2013 around 14:49

# ? Feb 1, 2013 14:36