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maxallen posted:E: I want to clarify my argument here. When NASCAR was developing the COT all you heard was (aside from safety) how it would help the little teams compete and lower barriers to entry and improve their situation. Well looking back 5 years later, we've gone from fielding 43 car fields that entirely intend to run the distance to anywhere from a 35 to 40 car field, and the gulf between the Hendricks and Roushs to the TBRs and Germain Racings is much much much wider than it was before the COT. E: Nobody commented on Bubba Wallace driving fulltime for KBR in Trucks 
Boomer The Cannon fucked around with this message at Feb 8, 2013 around 00:03 |
| # ? Feb 7, 2013 23:56 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 03:51 |
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maxallen posted:E: I want to clarify my argument here. When NASCAR was developing the COT all you heard was (aside from safety) how it would help the little teams compete and lower barriers to entry and improve their situation. Well looking back 5 years later, we've gone from fielding 43 car fields that entirely intend to run the distance to anywhere from a 35 to 40 car field, and the gulf between the Hendricks and Roushs to the TBRs and Germain Racings is much much much wider than it was before the COT. One of the other things that kinda threw a wrench into the equasion is the team limits. Remember back when NASCAR stepped in and said "gently caress you Roush, no one can field more than 4 teams". Which led to someone (I think Martin) losing his job. Before you had your Hendrick, Roush and RCR teams propping up some of the mid to low tier teams to test drive new drivers or run a retread through to see if there is anything left. That still happens to a degree but the blatant use of it is gone. The amount of rides a top team can fill is capped and your big teams with the exception of Penske are essentially at that cap. Roush and Hendrick have little incentive to help out a new or small team in exchange for having a hand in the driver.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 01:17 |
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maxallen posted:I'm gonna blame the COT for being too expensive (and boring) and Jimmie Johnson (for also being boring). I still think "The Chase" hurts the sport more than it helps. If they went the Golf/Tennis direction, and brought back the Winston Million, I think that would be the best thing ever.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 01:33 |
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FuzzySkinner posted:I still think "The Chase" hurts the sport more than it helps. Don't all the drivers love the chase? Or at least they all give it positive feed back. I thought I read that in an article once.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 01:41 |
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Boomer The Cannon posted:Testing policies, the advent of the 7-post shaker, bumpstops and taking adjustability out of the rules (common template points, shocks, mandated rear-end gears, superspeedway shocks, etc.) have limited what teams can do, and make what they can tweak on that much more expensive to do. All these things you mentioned though were supposed to help the low end teams, and theoretically should have, by bringing it from a 10% gap to a 1% gap. I really think what's happened has been that it's so expensive to run a team these days is the culmination of multiple factors: 1) As mentioned, NASCAR is blocking good sponsors from entering the sport. 2) The COT is too expensive to run, making it so that the break-even point for running a full race and the risks and costs that implies makes sponsorship too expensive for the guys these teams will attract. I'd like to just theorize here: when you tell a team that your chassis has to meet x requirements and have x safety features, that's a lot easier to build than to say "Here is the chassis you will build to exactly these dimensions," so now I can't put together a car in a garage, I have to farm out the chassis building to an expert crew. 3) Engine development is no longer a thing that every team does. You've got standing monopolies for each make. For instance: 2005: JGR, Roush, Yates, Penske, DEI, RCR, Petty, Hendrick, Ganassi, Evernham 2013: TRD, Roush, Hendrick, EGR We're literally at the point here that what you run on your sheet metal determines your one and only supplier under the hood, with the exception of Chevy (you can get the good engine or the poo poo engine). 4) TV numbers are down while (and this has probably always been true) coverage focuses on just a few popular drivers and totally ignores the small teams, so the only coverage you get is the fans in the stands, which are down too. Why should I sponsor a team when the car won't even be shown on TV? Honestly, I'd put less blame on NASCAR/ISC/SMI than #4 there. There is no return when your advertising reaches all of 0 people. And while I'll agree the chase hurts more than it helps, it doesn't affect the back of the grid and it was in its 5th year before S&P became a regular thing. There's probably more here I'm forgetting, but I'd say those are more responsible than NASCAR's useless rules or even the 4 car rule... quick response to that: Hendrick effectively is fielding at least 7 cars I can think of off the top of my head today. I'd say the smaller teams had less support before that since if I wanted a 5th car in a race, all I do is call up Terry Labonte and ask him to drive for me. e: quote:Don't all the drivers love the chase? Or at least they all give it positive feed back. e2: That's not really fair. I'm gonna backtrack. The fact is the Chase hurts 2 or 3 guys and helps 9 or 10. Everyone gets a second shot, same reason the best basketball team never wins the NCAA tournament and the national championship in NCAA Football means jack poo poo. maxallen fucked around with this message at Feb 8, 2013 around 02:06 |
| # ? Feb 8, 2013 02:00 |
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I remember last year when Michael Waltrip was looking for a ride for the Daytona 500, it came out that he couldn't run for a multi-car team because of NASCAR's 4 team limit. Apparently by NASCAR logic, driving for another team than you own means both teams cars count towards the 4-car total. Kyle Busch wants to bring KBM to Cup? Can't do that. Kevin if KHI was still around? Nope. Junior bringing up JRM? Not happening. Zombie Dale Sr. and DEI? Also no. I'm guessing NASCAR would rewrite the rules for someone like Dale Jr. but it's still a rather stupid rule that's not closing any loopholes and possibly preventing new teams.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 02:22 |
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I suppose there's not much use of a team limit, since nobody's got the cash to blatantly abuse that rule.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 02:24 |
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maxallen posted:All these things you mentioned though were supposed to help the low end teams, and theoretically should have, by bringing it from a 10% gap to a 1% gap. I really think what's happened has been that it's so expensive to run a team these days is the culmination of multiple factors: While normally the Orange Cone is a decent twitter follow outside of his carpet bomb retweets that he does twice a day, I had to explain to him why ratings were important when he went on one of his twitter sermons about "race fans don't care bout things not racin". He tried to stand on this fans don't care about ratings bits. The problem with explaining why ratings matter is actually impossible in the character limit and by time it hits the 4th tweet people are't paying attention. BUT NO CHARACTER LIMITS HERE! Y'all gonna get learnin. The ratings are the most important thing to the series. Period. They are. With out ratings, you don't draw sponsors, especially $35mil a year sponsors. You have companies dropping asinine amounts of advertising cash because the audience is there. Its why in the early 2000s you had teams turning away sponsors, and companies begging to buy in. There was a point that it was seriously "shut up and take my money" in Cup. Because the ratings were there. Then the economy poo poo the bed, the CoT showed up and ruined racing and the most polarizing driver in Cup was a petulant shithead named Kyle Busch. And that kinda ruined things. When things started to take a turn, Nascar decided to fix something that it had been poo poo on by the sports world since the dawn of the modern era. The championship format. You see, every other sport has a playoff system. Where you sort out the theoretical best teams, and then turn them loose in a win or die tournament. Before the chase you had 2-3 races at the end of the season that were essentially exhibition races because the title had been mathematically locked up. It was deemed anti climatic. The points restructure was another step they took to drum up interest, especially late in the season. Its a really long season 39 weeks, 36 points races, 4 non points events with two being exhibition races (all-star and shootout). Thats, like, alot. Its not baseball, but its still kind of bloated and takes either a great on track product, or a way to back load interest in the season. The chase and points structure handle the second. The Gen 6 car will hopefully accomplish the first. Ultimately, change only happens for two reasons. Death and ratings. We got the CoT because Nascar killed 6 dudes in 18 months. We got the Chase/points format/gen 6 car because of ratings. So, if you hate the chase, blame Kyle Busch and if you hate the money problems, blame lovely ratings, which are Kyle's fault too. quote:e: I still contend the only reason anyone, despite the lies they tell themselves, hates the chase is because Johnson won 5 titles in a row. We have had this argument before, and it will not change. Ever. Its here to stay and frankly it has provided us with now 2 seasons in a row of great finishes. Nascar is not going to ditch a ratings goldmine because a handful of bitter Harvick or Gordon fans think their driver got jobbed. And the sentiment from the drivers as I understand it is positive. The only people who don't like it are a small segment of fans. If that segment is dwarfed by the rest of the fans and it brings in casual fans especially late in the season, its going to stay. But I am going to question your examples for a minute.. You think Alabama really wasn't the best team this past year? And if you think that 75-76 undefeated Hoosiers team wasn't the best in D1 that season, then you have bad opinions. The best teams don't always win, but teams who are built to win titles usually do. Yea, you get those 07 Giants teams on occasion, but more often than not its the same 4-6 teams who are the best playing it out and its a matter of the best playing their best when it matters most. Boomer The Cannon posted:I suppose there's not much use of a team limit, since nobody's got the cash to blatantly abuse that rule. Hendrick and Roush do. You can lie to yourself and say they don't, but they do. SHR is basically Hendrick.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 03:20 |
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Except not as good.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 03:24 |
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Danica! posted:I still contend the only reason anyone, despite the lies they tell themselves, hates the chase is because Johnson won 5 titles in a row. for fucks sake i really couldn't give a poo poo about Johnson, and i really couldn't give a poo poo about how loving close a list of numbers is at the end of 36 bad races, i hate the points system because it produces a winner from a formula that tries to be something other than "Who was the best driver of the year?"
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 03:57 |
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I dont want to splice that loving post so here is what I was going to say in general *NASCAR is not a team sport, nor is it a sport with a format that actually would lend itself to a playoff. The idea that "every other sport" has a playoff system is loving ludicrous, almost every individual sport other than NASCAR (including bascially every other motorsport series) in the world has no sort of playoff system. Even loving soccer, the most popular team sport in the world, generally decides it's league champions by a table at the end of the year *The idea that people are going to tune in to see close points battles is ludicrous. Not just because of the historical evidence of NASCAR's best period of growth happening during a decade that had like, two good points fights, but because the series championship in NASCAR is something only the fans give a poo poo about. Non-fans watch Daytona and the Indy 500. NASCAR didn't make the chase because the ratings were low. They made the chase because ratings were high, and, deciding that they were suddenly King poo poo of the sports world, they made some stupid gimmick to try to take on the NFL in the fall. It Didn't Work *The Chase has generally not been that great at actually creating Atlanta '92-like scenarios.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 04:04 |
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The reason a bunch of start and parks appeared in 2009 is because the economy tanked, especially automotive sectors, so a bunch of teams lost support. It doesn't have a lot to do with the COT (although it probably just made things a bit worse). What kind of bizarre dumb logic would dropping tens of thousands of dollars from last place make people run the full race? Why yes, they're going to spend more money to complete the race distance for a chance to win less money! Those cars aren't going to magically compete in the Top30 during race day just because they decided to run the distance...
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 04:08 |
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Danica! posted:Hendrick and Roush do.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 04:24 |
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Danica! posted:So, if you hate the chase, blame Kyle Busch and if you hate the money problems, blame lovely ratings, which are Kyle's fault too. gently caress off.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 04:52 |
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Fag Boy Jim posted:I dont want to splice that loving post so here is what I was going to say in general You are wrong. You are wrong in every possible way. Nascar is a team sport. Each car being a team. Period. Don't argue this because you are wrong. You can't even start a race with out at least 2 people, because to be on the track you must have a spotter and a driver. Its a team sport. Do not argue this. You will be wrong. quote:*The idea that people are going to tune in to see close points battles is ludicrous. Not just because of the historical evidence of NASCAR's best period of growth happening during a decade that had like, two good points fights, but because the series championship in NASCAR is something only the fans give a poo poo about. Non-fans watch Daytona and the Indy 500. In America, which is basically the only fan base NASCAR gives a poo poo about, fans turn out for two things. Excitement and the potential for someone to be seriously harmed. Racing has the second down pat. The first well.. Thats what playoffs are for. Stop for a second. Think about sports from the American market. A playoff format is a ratings goldmine for sports. Playoff series in MLB, hockey and basketball garner better ratings than the regular season. March madness is so pervasive that there are actual studies showing that work efficiency drops something like 20-30%. NFL playoffs are huge. The only deviation from this is golf and tennis. Thats it. And the reason being is no one under 75 watches golf outside of the majors, and no one watches tennis, ever. Nascar made the decision to switch to a playoff format as they saw a trend of interest waning late in seasons. This wasn't some half baked bullshit idea they threw together over poker night. They did the research and after Kenseth won a title by finishing 6th every race, they said enough is enough. Thats how the chase came to be. The ratings success in other sports created the push. quote:NASCAR didn't make the chase because the ratings were low. They made the chase because ratings were high, and, deciding that they were suddenly King poo poo of the sports world, they made some stupid gimmick to try to take on the NFL in the fall. It Didn't Work Yes they did. They found studies showing that once the title was locked up there were less viewers. Where they lost that viewership was in the casual/marginal fan base. They needed a way to extend the title race. And the simple way was a playoff format. You are partially right about the last point. But keep in mind, you had one team for the majority of the chase era race in a playoff format. Everyone else was running a 36 race season. The 48 ran 3 seasons. Season one was to lock up a chase spot. Season two was for experimenting in racing conditions. Season three was the chase its self. When they finally faultered, you had one of the best title races in the history of the sport. And the best driver in the series won the title on a tie breaker. Last season you saw teams have meltdowns, issues and basically it became a last man standing. Rarely will you ever have 92 Atlanta. Even in a playoff format. But with the playoff format it reduces the chance for someone to walk away with the title 3 races before the season started. And if someone has a 2-3 race meltdown like the 48 did, like the 11 did, or goes apeshit like the 14 did, its pretty compelling tv. Which is what matters to nascar. I have explained this time and again. Nascar isn't creating a title race or a tv product for Sascar posters. Its creating one for the unwashed masses of american sports fans. Yes, most people here hate the chase and there are some decent arguments against it. But its still, from a ratings perspective, the best idea they have trotted out for maintaining ratings interest late in the season. Stop thinking they are going to develop a series for your personal enjoyment. They aren't. They are trying to develop a series that makes a poo poo ton of money by collecting stupidly high ratings on a consistent basis. Boomer The Cannon posted:Even while Roush has issues funding 3 cars, and Hendrick has funding issues with the 88? The problem they have with the 88 is everyone who wants in, wants a bigger piece. Not because no one can pony up the cash. They have the exact opposite of a funding issue. Too many offers and not enough space. Roush has problems because he is Jack Roush. If he wanted to run cars instead of being the asshat he is, he would do it. Roush creates his money/sponsor problems and at any time it suits him he can make them magically disappear. I know this because he did so back when he was crying about costs/sponsors while fielding 5 teams. And threw a poo poo fit when Nascar made everyone cap at 4 teams. That rule by the way was specifically intended to shut down Roush's bullshit.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 04:53 |
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Statler do you even watch car racing? edit: If NASCAR actually gave a poo poo about ratings they'd have the ol tuskan raiders or roofin nails ideas because the only reason the average person watches NASCAR is for the wrecks. edit2: oh oh they could have environmental hazards like them old battle robots shows. Like, drive too close to the wall and a big loving hammer smashes you, or every 5 laps a big hole opens up in the middle of the back stretch. Peanut President fucked around with this message at Feb 8, 2013 around 05:07 |
| # ? Feb 8, 2013 04:55 |
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Danica! posted:When things started to take a turn, Nascar decided to fix something that it had been poo poo on by the sports world since the dawn of the modern era. The championship format. Ratings didn't start to show a major dropoff until after the Chase was introduced; in fact, up until 2006, ratings were higher each year than they were the previous year. The Chase worked for one single season, 2005, and then after that, the numbers started to freefall. Each year starting in 2006, we've seen an overall drop in ratings, on a big scale. Danica! posted:I still contend the only reason anyone, despite the lies they tell themselves, hates the chase is because Johnson won 5 titles in a row. Hi there, I'm the resident Jimmie Johnson fan, here to tell you that you're wrong because I also hate the Chase and think it is a gigantic load of garbage. People hate it because it does not reward the driver who was the best over the course of 36 races and instead rewards the driver who was the best over the course of 10. That Is Bullshit.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 05:08 |
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Why is anyone even responding to this guy anymore? Off season has broken his brain.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 05:14 |
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mischief posted:Why is anyone even responding to this guy anymore? Off season has broken his brain. is the shootout still a week away? you guys want to marathon something saturday?
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 05:38 |
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I remember when I was the worst poster here and I'm sad that there is now such competition, almost a chase, of bad posters. And everyone is forgetting that Nascar was a fad, like pogs & new jack swing, back in its heyday. Fads just go away, there's no easy rationale or logic there.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 05:41 |
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FuzzySkinner posted:is the shootout still a week away? Shootout is Saturday. ISN'T IT? 
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 06:13 |
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Tedgewick posted:I remember when I was the worst poster here and I'm sad that there is now such competition, almost a chase, of bad posters. The new thread was the beginning of the chase to start being the worst. I got an idea for you all, lets post a little better. Also I agree, NASCAR was a fad, actually racing as a whole, I can ask a lot of people and they'll remember Schumacher from F1, but won't know poo poo of anyone else in the present. Kind of the same now only knowing Jeff Gordon or Earnhardt Jr. Rest of the fun and games are detracting the hardcore fans.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 06:27 |
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Peanut President posted:Shootout is Saturday. Things don't get started down there until next Thursday, the 14th.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 06:28 |
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Uncle Jam posted:What kind of bizarre dumb logic would dropping tens of thousands of dollars from last place make people run the full race? NASCAR (conservative) logic duh. It's the same logic that if you cut welfare people will just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and magically start earning $40k a year.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 06:32 |
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Peanut President posted:Shootout is Saturday. So, let's see..for Saturday/Sunday, if you guys would be up for it. 1967 (Mario Andretti winning Daytona) 1972 (SuperTex Wins Daytona) 1979 (Yeah, well no poo poo) 1987 (Geoff Bodine beats Earnhardt) 1989 (This is the Daytona 500 isn't it? THANK GOD!) 1993 (Dale and Dale show) 1998 (Earnhardt finally wins it) 2002 (LOL Sterling Marlin) 2004 (Jr. wins) 2007 (Harvick) 2011 (Wood Bros. and Trevor Bayne) And of course any memorable shootouts, twin races, busch, and IROC races would be welcomed as well. FuzzySkinner fucked around with this message at Feb 8, 2013 around 06:46 |
| # ? Feb 8, 2013 06:40 |
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Racetube don't work for me on this old box and I'll be playing TF2 nonstop once I get my new one on Sunday night.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 06:47 |
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I'm down for a marathon Saturday
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 14:39 |
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All of those sound fantastic but it's Mardi Gras time, so I'll be busy and/or drunk.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 15:32 |
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I'm rooting for Joey Coulter this year... because helmet.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 15:38 |
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Peanut President posted:Racetube don't work for me on this old box and I'll be playing TF2 nonstop once I get my new one on Sunday night. Okay Grandpa.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 16:42 |
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Peanut President posted:Racetube don't work for me on this old box and I'll be playing TF2 nonstop once I get my new one on Sunday night. I'm gonna laugh at this post so many reasons. Primarily you "get" new boxes and you play TF2. God come play minecraft with me forever and ever and ever
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 17:44 |
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Look dudes, I've been playing TF2 on my 360 for years and years now. I want to play payload goddamn it. Also my new comp could play Far Cry 3 on highest settings so haters vacate.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 19:55 |
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Peanut President posted:I want to play payload goddamn it. Wait... you've never played Payload? That's just a crime.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 21:08 |
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Consoles never got the updates, so no.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 21:25 |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8lL_MWG_Jc god nascar...start the season already. I want to make fun of the terrible commercials, curse out jimmiebot and watch the races with everyone here.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 21:53 |
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Wallace Jr gets full time ride, ESPN screws up story, has to correct it. For those of you who didn't see the first publishing of it, Newton said Wallace was the 3rd African American to get a full time ride. Turns out he is the fourth. And to the surprise of no one, Allmendinger testing Indy Cars for Penske. Edit: And someone named Kyle Larson got a Nationwide ride.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 22:27 |
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Jimmy SMUT Means
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 22:43 |
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Programming note: Speed has the HoF induction Ceremony on at 1930 EST tonight, re-air at 2330. Rusty Wallace Leonard Wood Herb Thomas Cotton Owens Buck Baker If you care about that kind of thing.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 22:54 |
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This is the guy that went out and almost won the Truck race at Phoenix last fall in his second or third start in the series, in case anybody missed it.
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 23:10 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 03:51 |
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I have a sort of odd question. I've been trying to find a place for my dad to watch NASCAR online (legally, of course), opposed to a local TV station because the area he is in is very, very irregular about showing racing over other things. I've found a couple neat official NASCAR cameras for individual races (pit stop cameras, and even a live dash cam once), but not just straight up race coverage. Does anyone know of a good place to go for the upcoming season? He's totally willing to buy a season pass or some service if one exists. By the way, sorry if the answer can be found on google: I've looked, for hours on multiple occasions, but there is just a huge flux of scammy sites claiming to offer this but clearly not being legit or pirate stream feeds, nothing official. Which seems ludicrous to me. Any ideas are welcome!
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| # ? Feb 8, 2013 23:34 |
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