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NikkolasKing posted:The narrative constantly goes on about how pure Manwe is, about how glorious and majestic the Vala are, even as they persist in being stupid. How hard would it have been to drag Sauron back to Valinor as opposed to just leaving him in Middle-earth? Or even to get off their fancy golden thrones and go see Numenor and remind them that "hey! WE'RE ALL POWERFUL GODS! DON'T ATTACK US OR YOUR ENTIRE PEOPLE, WOMEN AND CHILDREN INCLUDED, WILL BE EXTERMINATED." The Numenoreans, by the time of Ar-Pharazon, were monsters who had made a monstrous society. Sauron taught them to worship Morgoth with human sacrifices, and convinced them that the Eldar had told them lies about the true strength of the Valar, that the latter were merely jealously guarding Paradise. But even that second clause was already bubbling up in parts of Numenor's society, as men forgot the generosity their fathers were shown after the First Age. I think Manwe knew that nothing the Valar could do would convince the majority of their beneficence and wisdom - c.f. Matthew 11:21 where Jesus says that even the miracles he does will not convince all of the witnesses.
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Aug 2, 2015 19:28
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There isn't much point to the world if you constantly have angels telling you exactly what to do or doing it for you. Especially when clashes of power on that level tend to destroy continents.
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Aug 2, 2015 19:38
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my dad posted:Aule is cool. Sure, his Maiar have a tendency to become shitheads, but that's hardly his fault. Aule and Ulmo are the best, and nothing can convince me otherwise. 
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Aug 2, 2015 19:42
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:Aule and Ulmo are the best, and nothing can convince me otherwise.
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Aug 2, 2015 19:44
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Friar John posted:The War of Wrath against Morgoth destroyed Beleriand. The Host of the Valar against Sauron would have devastated, if not outright broken, Middle-Earth. The Valar did what they could to help the mortals in their long fight, but he could not command them if they didn't want to obey. Manwe sent the Wizards to aid those still in M-E, but if you're not mad that the first thing they did wasn't march up to Barad-dur and make a laser light show, why be mad at Manwe for exercising his authority in subtler ways than mere battle? The Vala made the right call with the Istari but my post you quoted was referring to the end of the First Age.. The War of the Ring and the destruction of Numenor never would have come about if the Host of the Valar had taken prisoner Morgoth's second-in-command. Sauron was, as I recall it, literally brought before Eonwe, who was potentially the strongest of his kind ever. Forget the armies, Eowne himself could have literally dragged Sauron back to Valinor. But no, they chose to leave Sauron - again SECOND-IN-COMMAND to the guy they fought this whole war in order to capture - free to reign in Middle-earth. And look what happened. And forget what harm he could have caused in future, he was already guilty of a million and one crimes by this point. THere was zero reason not to take him captive and have him face judgment.
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Aug 2, 2015 19:49
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NikkolasKing posted:The Vala made the right call with the Istari but my post you quoted was referring to the end of the First Age.. The War of the Ring and the destruction of Numenor never would have come about if the Host of the Valar had taken prisoner Morgoth's second-in-command. Sauron was, as I recall it, literally brought before Eonwe, who was potentially the strongest of his kind ever. Forget the armies, Eowne himself could have literally dragged Sauron back to Valinor. But no, they chose to leave Sauron - again SECOND-IN-COMMAND to the guy they fought this whole war in order to capture - free to reign in Middle-earth.
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Aug 2, 2015 19:58
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I'm not disputing Sauron's abilities or intellect. He's very intelligent and very capable. One of the best parts of LOTR is finding out just all the ways he rigged the game in his favor. But why wouldn't Eonwe just force Sauron to come with the Host back to Valinor? They had Morgoth, why not take his lieutenant too? Even if he is pardoned, he can just go and do as he pleases afterward and leave Valinor again. And if he isn't pardoned, then you have a dangerous criminal ready to be locked up. There's zero reason to not just take him.
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Aug 2, 2015 20:05
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Friar John posted:The Numenoreans, by the time of Ar-Pharazon, were monsters who had made a monstrous society. Sauron taught them to worship Morgoth with human sacrifices, and convinced them that the Eldar had told them lies about the true strength of the Valar, that the latter were merely jealously guarding Paradise. But even that second clause was already bubbling up in parts of Numenor's society, as men forgot the generosity their fathers were shown after the First Age. I think Manwe knew that nothing the Valar could do would convince the majority of their beneficence and wisdom - c.f. Matthew 11:21 where Jesus says that even the miracles he does will not convince all of the witnesses. The mistake the Valar made was they had a real poor understanding of human psychology-that prohibiting something is the surest way to get someone interested in it. What they should have done is said "You want to visit Valinor? Here, take a look-oh the land literally burned out your mortal life. Anyone else want to come?"
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Aug 2, 2015 20:08
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Regarding Feanor saving everyone in the end, I mean more that had he just sat tight in Valinor and done the wise and sensible thing, presumably Morgoth would have just had squashed Middle-earth and sat on everyone in his palace of super evil. Maybe Melian's girdle would've protected that place, but (for instance) Men would've basically been up poo poo creek without a paddle and would have likely all died or been enslaved. Dwarves would have also been pretty hosed.
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Aug 2, 2015 21:04
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Tolkien does say this in Myths Transformedquote:If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the Northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements of Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm. In essence, had the Noldor not kept him distracted for a long time, Morgoth's Empire would have been annihilated by Morgoth himself because he hates everything in creation and would have crushed everything within his uncontested reach to atoms. Of course, Feanor himself couldn't have known this. Indeed, he himself never was part of the "virtually besieging" because he died right after coming to Middle-earth. More thanks should go to Fingolfin, whom Feanor might as well have left for dead.
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Aug 2, 2015 21:36
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SirPhoebos posted:The mistake the Valar made was they had a real poor understanding of human psychology-that prohibiting something is the surest way to get someone interested in it. What they should have done is said "You want to visit Valinor? Here, take a look-oh the land literally burned out your mortal life. Anyone else want to come?" I wish Christopher or J.RR. himself could give more input about this. If either of them agrees that" yeah, the Valar did handle things pretty poorly for being Gods." Do many of the gods have their own personal flaws, not including the ones who fell towards the dark side. Do they ever suffer from boredom?
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Aug 2, 2015 23:33
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Well I know Manwe at least is stated to be pure goodness personified, which is why he never "understood" Melkor's evil. He's incapable of vice so vice naturally perplexes him. Of course, if Manwe is literally programmed to be good, he's not actually good at all. He has no choice in the matter. If you can't choose to be evil, if it is functionally impossible for you to be greedy or wrathful or prideful, then you are neutral like a robot and nothing more. Of course, that's from a modern perspective where morality is determined from actions. The Silmarillion is written like something from a bygone era and is working under a entirely alien concept of right and wrong.
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Aug 2, 2015 23:41
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NikkolasKing posted:Well I know Manwe at least is stated to be pure goodness personified, which is why he never "understood" Melkor's evil. He's incapable of vice so vice naturally perplexes him. Of course, if Manwe is literally programmed to be good, he's not actually good at all. He has no choice in the matter. If you can't choose to be evil, if it is functionally impossible for you to be greedy or wrathful or prideful, then you are neutral like a robot and nothing more. Guess Tolkien never really thought critically about self determination or what it means to be morally good. If you're programmed to be a "Good God" , like a robot would be, are you really that different from someone who always acts with good morals?
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Aug 3, 2015 00:16
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NikkolasKing posted:Well I know Manwe at least is stated to be pure goodness personified, which is why he never "understood" Melkor's evil. He's incapable of vice so vice naturally perplexes him. Of course, if Manwe is literally programmed to be good, he's not actually good at all. He has no choice in the matter. If you can't choose to be evil, if it is functionally impossible for you to be greedy or wrathful or prideful, then you are neutral like a robot and nothing more. The problem of a being being unable to be evil not really being good or even a moral actor in any sense of the term is a problem for Catholic theology in general, what with good being omnibenevolent. Like, I wouldn't say that the Silmarillion's morality and theology is something alien or from a bygone era, it's just intensely Catholic in some ways. And where it differs it tends to be more due to Tolkien's own beliefs/creativity than due to any sort of bygone era stuff. I mean, like, besides the above issue, there's also the issue of theodicy in Tolkien's work, just as there is in Catholic/Christian theology in general. If all that Melkor has done was, without his knowing, part of Eru's plan, then by what reasonable definition can we say that Eru is good? Basically I feel like when you get down to it, the morality and theology of the legendarium is so informed by Tolkien's own religious beliefs that it's quite impossible to really go in-depth with analysis and criticism of them withouot going in-depth on some general problems with Western religion, particularly Catholicism and Christianity.
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Aug 3, 2015 01:59
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:The problem of a being being unable to be evil not really being good or even a moral actor in any sense of the term is a problem for Catholic theology in general, what with good being omnibenevolent. Like, I wouldn't say that the Silmarillion's morality and theology is something alien or from a bygone era, it's just intensely Catholic in some ways. And where it differs it tends to be more due to Tolkien's own beliefs/creativity than due to any sort of bygone era stuff. Basically all this. All morality comes down to whether we are acting of our own volition (morality is complex) or are we just acting out the plan god has (people are no differnt from puppets running through a play for the amusement of the creator).
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Aug 3, 2015 02:05
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I dunno, I think "in the ultimate analysis, you can't defy God and all the bad poo poo you do will, in time, end up bearing good fruit" doesn't mean that your bad thing isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Since I think Iluvatar said that to Melkor you could see it as a backhanded way to go "Are you suuuure you wanna do that buddy? In the end you'll just be hurting yourself, not fundamentally defying me." What it seems bad acts do, in Tolkien's vision anyway, is make things more complex and perhaps less 'powerful' in some big grand cosmic sense of things.
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Aug 3, 2015 02:32
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Nessus posted:I dunno, I think "in the ultimate analysis, you can't defy God and all the bad poo poo you do will, in time, end up bearing good fruit" doesn't mean that your bad thing isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Since I think Iluvatar said that to Melkor you could see it as a backhanded way to go "Are you suuuure you wanna do that buddy? In the end you'll just be hurting yourself, not fundamentally defying me." No one's saying Melkor is good because his actions brought about good things (eventually), they're questioning whether Iluvatar is good because he allows bad things to happen, even though they eventually bring about good things. Oh also some people are wondering if being unable to do evil necessarily makes you good.
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Aug 3, 2015 03:12
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Nessus posted:Regarding Feanor saving everyone in the end, I mean more that had he just sat tight in Valinor and done the wise and sensible thing, presumably Morgoth would have just had squashed Middle-earth and sat on everyone in his palace of super evil. Maybe Melian's girdle would've protected that place, but (for instance) Men would've basically been up poo poo creek without a paddle and would have likely all died or been enslaved. Dwarves would have also been pretty hosed. I don't think that the secondary results of Feanor's disobedience absolve him of his sins (though I don't think you're saying this). I think your post does highlight the theme that even disobedience and sinfulness can be turned to good. Something I think this thread and the Liturgical Christianity thread should just merge. 
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Aug 3, 2015 12:49
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Ynglaur posted:I don't think that the secondary results of Feanor's disobedience absolve him of his sins (though I don't think you're saying this). I think your post does highlight the theme that even disobedience and sinfulness can be turned to good.
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Aug 3, 2015 13:31
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Yes? But when you're talking about Eru/God it's kind of meaningless to talk that way because when someone is omnipotent and omniscient then literally everything that happens happens only by their will.
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Aug 3, 2015 13:48
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"In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.Ravenfood posted:IIRC, doesn't Eru note that even Melkor's Discord during the Great Music was ultimately born from Eru's will? And that the additional themes Eru brings into the Song only come to counteract the Discord and so eventually add to the beauty of the song, or some such? Its been a while. Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.' Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But Ilúvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him. But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'" An interesting fact, to me at least, is that Tolkien says that Sauron actually understood more of the Music than Melkor ever did. A friend of mine and a super Tolkien fan put it this way - Sauron at least loved Creation enough to want to rule it. He liked what Eru had done but he felt it needed Order; order he alone could provide. Melkor hated everything in creation because he hadn't been the one to create it. Everything in existence enrages him simply by being because they have no right to be.
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Aug 3, 2015 13:55
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Yes? But when you're talking about Eru/God it's kind of meaningless to talk that way because when someone is omnipotent and omniscient then literally everything that happens happens only by their will. occasionalism is a real trend, particularly in islamic theology, but it's a bit harsh to say that it's a trivial conclusion imo
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Aug 3, 2015 14:43
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NikkolasKing posted:Tolkien does say this in Myths Transformed Well yeah, he would have destroyed his own "empire" but only after destroying everyone else...or is that your point, I can't really tell. It reads like you're saying if the Noldor hadn't distracted him, that Morgoth would have just eventually offed himself and everyone else would have got on with living, which I don't believe Tolkien is saying in that quote.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:49
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I said Morgoth would destroy his empire and everything within his reach.... I was responding to Nessus, who is more or less right, as per Tolkien. Had Feanor and the other Noldor stayed in Valinor, everywhere that wasn't the Undying Lands would have been hosed. Morgoth would have ruled everything and he would have killed everything.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:56
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This is cool and silly. quote:A group of architects has launched a crowdfunding campaign in the hopes of raising almost £2 billion in order to build a lifesize replica of Lord of the Rings city Minas Tirith in the south of England. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/lord-of-the-rings/minas-tirit-crowdfund/ But now there's a twist, because the author Tom Stacey has launched a rival movement with the aim of destroying the city. quote:The distinctly tongue-in-cheek operation, named Destroy Minas Tirith, aims to raise £1 million in order to recreate the Orc siege of the city as shown in JRR Tolkien's final Lord of the Rings book, The Return of the King, and made even more famous by Peter Jackson's film. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/lord-of-the-rings/orcs-launch-crowdfunding-campaign-to-destroy-minas-tirith/ Octy fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 00:16
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Pff. Minas Tirith would look loving stupid sitting on the knee of a giant rocky mountain that doesn't exist anywhere within about 500 miles.
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Aug 15, 2015 02:41
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Yeah, I think building it in England is a bit ambitious given the lack of real mountains, unless they intend on building the mountain first.
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Aug 15, 2015 03:20
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can we make a minas morgul kickstarter
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Aug 15, 2015 05:34
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Smoking Crow posted:can we make a minas morgul kickstarter Just turn this into a Minas Ithil KS and hope the Nazgul show up to take care of things for you?
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Aug 15, 2015 06:45
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Octy posted:This is cool and silly. quote:Back in 1969, United Artists didn’t hang around. Almost as soon as they had the rights, the studio contacted John Boorman, who was planning a fantasy picture inspired by Arthurian legend, and asked him to submit a treatment for a Lord of the Rings film. What he came back with was more like reconstructive surgery.
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Aug 15, 2015 14:23
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My Aragorn and Boromir romantic fanfic was so close to being on the big screen?!
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Aug 15, 2015 14:46
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The Minas Tirith kickstarter has raised £13,000. I'll look in the gap in my sofa. I am sure I can find 50p. What's the view of BBC's LOTR? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_(1981_radio_series) It was 26 x 30 min episodes. it was released on cassette and CD. You won't find the episodes on YouTube but the soundtrack does appear frequently. I am sure British goons itt will remember it. Views?
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Aug 15, 2015 20:27
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:The Minas Tirith kickstarter has raised £13,000. I'll look in the gap in my sofa. I am sure I can find 50p.
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Aug 15, 2015 22:31
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I've got it, it's decent. It sticks close to the text rather than trying to turn it into a play. I wish they hadn't tried to sing though.
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Aug 16, 2015 03:52
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Data Graham posted:I've got it, it's decent. It sticks close to the text rather than trying to turn it into a play. I wish they hadn't tried to sing though. Songs are always the mistake in the dramatization.
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Aug 16, 2015 04:07
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I listened to it years ago, and thought it quite good. Andy Serkis changed my view of what Gollum could sound like well before PJ's films. They're worth listening to if audio is something you enjoy.
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Aug 16, 2015 14:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Songs are always the mistake in the dramatization. I liked them in the audiobook version. Bilbo's song in Rivendell in particular always gets me a bit.
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Aug 16, 2015 16:36
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Ynglaur posted:I listened to it years ago, and thought it quite good. Andy Serkis changed my view of what Gollum could sound like well before PJ's films. Wait, Serkis? I thought Peter Woodthorpe was Gollum in the BBC production. (Same guy who played him all effete-like in the Bakshi movie)
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Aug 16, 2015 21:39
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Oh, you're right of course. Curse my bad memory.
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Aug 17, 2015 16:45
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Frankly, I am really disappointed by all of you. How could you let the Minas Tirith kickstarter fail? Kickstarters can succeed: just look at ISIS's kickstarter for Mordor.
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Aug 25, 2015 08:33
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