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webmeister posted:Yeah I know that it physically exists but was removed from Arda after the attempted invasion by Numenor. But I mean in an allegorical sense, it's a one-way trip to a heavenly place. I don't think any mortal ever returned? Allegorically, yeah, it's supposed to be read as "honorable hero's death" in the same way that King Arthur's journey to Avalon was supposed to be read. Ambiguously. You see the body go over the horizon, but there's no tomb and the person becomes a figure of myth. In-universe, even though its names evoke both Valhalla and Avalon, it's a real place and it has a long history of war and death even within its borders. I always sort of felt that Tolkien's purpose in presenting it in the allegorical/mystical way he did in LotR, after spending so many years developing the concrete history of Valinor and Tol Eressëa, was to show how a "mundane" place can attain supernatural significance to people who have never known anything about it and can't see inside it. Valinor is anything but mundane to mortals, but for the Elves and Valar who lived there it was just the local neighborhood.
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Sep 6, 2016 16:48
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webmeister posted:Your friend sounds like kind of a moron to be honest. Genuinely - why does he think one set of battles is more realistic than the other? It's not like he's been in a faux-medieval battle to judge! And criticising someone who essentially invented a genre for being unoriginal and cliche, really? That honestly makes no sense. More to the point, Tolkien was in WORLD WAR I, pretty sure if that doesn't make you "qualified" to write about battle nothing does. God knows when Sam talks about seeing a dead enemy and wonders what his life was like, not to mention Frodo talking about leaving the Shire sounds pure military vet to me. I think there's a certain read of the effects of the Ring evoking the effects of depression, which one can guess where familiarity with it would come from.
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Sep 6, 2016 17:01
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MadDogMike posted:More to the point, Tolkien was in WORLD WAR I, pretty sure if that doesn't make you "qualified" to write about battle nothing does. God knows when Sam talks about seeing a dead enemy and wonders what his life was like, not to mention Frodo talking about leaving the Shire sounds pure military vet to me. I think there's a certain read of the effects of the Ring evoking the effects of depression, which one can guess where familiarity with it would come from. Wasn't there some discussion (earlier in the thread) about that Sam/Southron scene having been inserted at the publisher's suggestion, so that the narrative could show some empathy for a) average soldiers regardless of the side they're on, and b) non-white-Europeans in a world where blood purity and "evil races" are a thing?
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Sep 6, 2016 17:09
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VanSandman posted:Frodo pleading for mercy has always rubbed me the wrong way. Not the mercy part - being willing to forgive the wretched is a major part of his character - but HOW he does it. He says something like 'Saruman is a very rare and chosen kind of person and we don't have the right to kill him, as he was appointed by powers greater than us,' which is partially true, Saruman being a Maiar and all, but Saruman abandoned his divine mission and his mandate when he turned against the free people of Middle Earth. Gandalf broke his staff with pure will, after all, showing just how far Saruman had fallen. (emphasis mine) I don't like his argument that the hobbits don't have a right to enact what they see as justice. This is a man who has been oppressing and murdering throughout the Shire out of nothing but spite, for goodness sake. I think that's the point, though. Gandalf becoming "the White" was testament to him being granted authority to discipline others of his order. While the hobbits had the right--the authority--to remove Saruman from the Shire, they did not have the authority to put him to death (outside of battle). Saruman did not betray a mandate from the hobbits, but a mandate from the Valar.
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Sep 6, 2016 17:16
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Data Graham posted:It has echoes of typical Victorian classism / revolutionary French royalism, doesn't it? "You peons are not qualified to judge me!" "That's right, we're not. You answer to a higher power." Well, that's Tolkien's Catholicism showing. Revenge is mine sayeth the Lord, etc. And of course Pity staying his hand, and showing he's still the same good hobbit underneath. The Scouring is probably the most important part of the LotR thematically. Some come home stronger, some come home wounded but recover, and some (perhaps the greatest of them) were broken, never fully heal, and ultimately commit a kind of suicide (though I'm sure Tolkien would disagree with that reading). If you want to engage with your WoT loving friend, tell him LotR is a veterans reaction to WW1/2, and WoT is a veterans reaction to Vietnam.
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Sep 6, 2016 17:17
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Data Graham posted:Wasn't there some discussion (earlier in the thread) about that Sam/Southron scene having been inserted at the publisher's suggestion, so that the narrative could show some empathy for a) average soldiers regardless of the side they're on, and b) non-white-Europeans in a world where blood purity and "evil races" are a thing? Pretty sure it was an Easterling and not a Southron, since there were elephants involved. Also, pretty sure the publisher at that time wouldn't have given a poo poo about blatant racism and if he had might have suggested that Tolkien not compare blacks to trolls.
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Sep 6, 2016 17:26
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TildeATH posted:Pretty sure it was an Easterling and not a Southron, since there were elephants involved. Also, pretty sure the publisher at that time wouldn't have given a poo poo about blatant racism and if he had might have suggested that Tolkien not compare blacks to trolls. Wouldn't a southron make sense with the elephant?
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Sep 6, 2016 17:28
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SirPhoebos posted:Tbh, it sounds like your friend just needs a good trolling. Laser focus on Jordan dying before finishing the series-that's where I'd start. Also that the only author he ever 'inspired' was Terry Goodkind. and grrm and the friend in question is a massive tool
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Sep 6, 2016 19:47
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Data Graham posted:Wasn't there some discussion (earlier in the thread) about that Sam/Southron scene having been inserted at the publisher's suggestion, so that the narrative could show some empathy for a) average soldiers regardless of the side they're on, and b) non-white-Europeans in a world where blood purity and "evil races" are a thing? Never heard of this before and I can't imagine Tolkien going with it.
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Sep 6, 2016 19:50
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Mr. Neutron posted:Never heard of this before and I can't imagine Tolkien going with it. Wonder where I heard it then. I could have sworn there was something about how the shift to Sam's internal monologue and his musings as an omniscient narrator just for a moment seemed out of place, and that if people were going to use that scene as ammo against the "fantasy racism" argument then it felt hastily tacked-on and didn't ring true as part of the story's natural flow. I guess I could just be imagining it.
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Sep 6, 2016 19:54
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SirPhoebos posted:Tbh, it sounds like your friend just needs a good trolling. Laser focus on Jordan dying before finishing the series-that's where I'd start. Also that the only author he ever 'inspired' was Terry Goodkind. My plan as soon as I found out about it was to pretend I'd just discovered the secret TV pilot and thought it was great and I could totally understand what he liked about the series.
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Sep 6, 2016 19:58
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Mr. Neutron posted:They really are not, though, granted, you need to read the Silmarilion and his letter no. 210 to understand why. I never understood why the Jackson movies didn´t provide at least some of this information. To the outside viewer it really looks like a plot hole. VanSandman posted:Agreed! That's why it bothers me. Turn Saruman over to the White Council, sure, but don't couch it in terms like 'right to judge.'
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Sep 6, 2016 20:03
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Mr. Neutron posted:
I don't believe Jackson was permitted to use one word of anything that wasn't from The Hobbit, LOTR, or its appendices. No Sil and no letters, he did not have the rights. Edit - sorry, didn't see this was mentioned on a new page AdmiralViscen fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 20:08
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Oh. Well, that explains a lot.
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Sep 6, 2016 20:20
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TildeATH posted:Pretty sure it was an Easterling and not a Southron, since there were elephants involved. Also, pretty sure the publisher at that time wouldn't have given a poo poo about blatant racism and if he had might have suggested that Tolkien not compare blacks to trolls. Wait, what?
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Sep 6, 2016 21:34
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my dad posted:Wait, what? This unfortunate sentence in the battle of Pelennor Fields chapter in The Return of the King: "black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues"
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Sep 6, 2016 22:04
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Kassad posted:This unfortunate sentence in the battle of Pelennor Fields chapter in The Return of the King: "black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues" Yiiikes.  I guess the translation I read made it sound less, uh... yeah...
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Sep 6, 2016 22:09
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I think there's also a part when Frodo and the others are in Bree that describes shifty men who look like orcs because they have slanted eyes.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:21
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And, for that matter, the Dwarven language was explicitly based on Hebrew. If you read the letters and the various passages it's pretty clear that Tolkien 1) was personally opposed to explicit racism of any kind (" I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine."")(""I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White.") buuuut 2) nevertheless harbored some reflexive prejudices and associations as was pretty common for people of his time. Basically he was not consciously or intentionally racist but (like most of the rest of us) still had some reflexive prejudices, and they sometimes came out in his writing. Decent summary here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien%27s_Works Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 22:48
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I think the big thing with Frodo is that he's basically been saved through a semi-secular version of literal divine grace and mercy, and if he isn't exactly a saint or a Jesus he's certainly got some of that on him, with his white jewel and so on. So while Sam, Pippin and Merry could have freed the Shire from a tyrant he saves the Shire from the usual cycle of reprisals and revenges which normally happen. Sort of the spiritual ideal of "the Shire" vs. "this plot of land under a hobbitocracy." I mean even after that, the guy who becomes the Mayor isn't either Pippin or Merry with their sick gear and political connections to the new King, who would have been the logical people to be in charge. It's Sam, the professional servant and lawnmower. There's certainly room to criticize the idea but I think it's towards the end for a reason. Narratively, it isn't a "minor aside" in the slightest. I do think the idea that justice and killing aren't inherently connected is valuable, and I presume Frodo expected there would be no reasonable way to detain him into Gandalf's care. (And in the end, Wormtongue solves the problem, doesn't he?)
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Sep 6, 2016 22:51
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The Easterlings and Southrons are pretty tragically undeveloped for how often they show up in the narrative. Like these "swarthy, ill-mannered" folks have been hanging around since the First Age, fought in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, seen the rise and fall of Morgoth and Numenor. They've done important poo poo! And yet they're aggressively devoid of personality beyond a few concessions to their combat discipline and those slavers that showed up in Children of Hurin. I'm not even saying they should have "good reasons" or be sympathetic (I'll even grant that all we see of them are soldiers). The issue is that they're featureless in a world that gives rocks and local plantlife a memorable character. An Easterling version of Shagrat+Gorbag's conversation would be goddamn fascinating.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:03
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Bendigeidfran posted:The Easterlings and Southrons are pretty tragically undeveloped for how often they show up in the narrative. Like these "swarthy, ill-mannered" folks have been hanging around since the First Age, fought in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, seen the rise and fall of Morgoth and Numenor. They've done important poo poo! And yet they're aggressively devoid of personality beyond a few concessions to their combat discipline and those slavers that showed up in Children of Hurin. Easterlings: still better than the Calormen Discuss
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Sep 6, 2016 23:28
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webmeister posted:Yeah I know that it physically exists but was removed from Arda after the attempted invasion by Numenor. But I mean in an allegorical sense, it's a one-way trip to a heavenly place. I don't think any mortal ever returned? It wasn't meant for men. So it's kid of wierd to say no men returned. Elves and Maiar came back and forth.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:55
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It was kind of accidental that the dwarf language was based on Semitic sounds. The dwarves are based on dwarves from German and Norse myth not Jews.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:58
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The Silmarillion as a boobs-and-incest epic series on Netflix.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:03
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euphronius posted:It wasn't meant for men. So it's kid of wierd to say no men returned. Elves and Maiar came back and forth. It wasn't meant for men but a few Numenoreans managed to set foot during Ar-Pharazon's invasion and got wrecked. Plus, you know, Earendil.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:17
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Yeah they get wrecked. Banished to a cave until the end of time. Sucks.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:18
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Earendil was elvy.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:19
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dat self-determination tho
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Sep 7, 2016 00:30
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euphronius posted:Earendil was elvy. Half-elvy 
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Sep 7, 2016 00:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Easterlings: still better than the Calormen That bar's so low a Took couldn't squeeze himself under it  . But no detail is preferable to awful detail, yes.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:53
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Bendigeidfran posted:That bar's so low a Took couldn't squeeze himself under it Tolkien and Lewis just weren't thinking about race to nearly the same extent that a modern reader or critic does. You could say they didn't have an . . . Inkling . . .
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Sep 7, 2016 01:34
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booo
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Sep 7, 2016 01:48
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euphronius posted:It was kind of accidental that the dwarf language was based on Semitic sounds. it was not quote:The dwarves are based on dwarves from German and Norse myth not Jews. While the Norse foundation should be obvious, they are heavily based upon the Jews: J. R. R. Tolkien posted:I do think of the ‘Dwarves’ like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue. And: quote:Tolkien historian John Rateliff, in his book The History of the Hobbit, claims that Tolkien’s fascination with Jewish texts guided the development of the race of Dwarrows... They were a people in exile–forced to leave their homeland, the Lonely Mountain, by the dragon Smaug. They were craftsmen and traders, much like the Jews in medieval Europe. The language that Tolkien developed for them, Khuzdűl, was influenced by Hebrew phonology. Source
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Sep 7, 2016 01:56
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Though, ironically...
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Sep 7, 2016 02:02
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That website thinks Sasquatch is more Jewish than Leopold Bloom 
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Sep 7, 2016 02:47
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Easterlings: still better than the Calormen Men of calor. Heh.
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Sep 7, 2016 04:15
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So to folks who read LOTR before watching the movies: what looked different from how you imagined them? Whether that be the clothes, the landscape, how scary the orcs were, the Golden Hall in Edoras, etc. I always thought of Rivendell as much more sparse, for instance. Like a series of large cottages in the woods instead of the cliff-side city that we ended up seeing.
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Sep 7, 2016 16:49
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Well, I expected the elves to have a sense of humor, for one. The songs are pretty much completely different than what I imagined them as. (It's a weird feeling listening to them and feeling "there's something wrong here" despite the movie versions of the songs being much, much better than anything I imagined when I read them. It's just... there's something special about being a kid and weaving in your own tune as you flip the pages, and the movies clearly can't match that)
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Sep 7, 2016 17:03
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My biggest thing (that I've mentioned before) is the landscapes. Sure, they're gorgeous. But they aren't distinctive. Not the way the text makes them out. Like the Misty Mountains; they're supposed to be this big alpine spine that you can see from a hundred miles off. I always pictured the lands between Bree and the Mountains to be low rolling hills, with enough open space that you'd be able to see the mountains in the distance and getting closer, like the Rockies from Denver. But in the movie they're always struggling through indistinct broken hills with no wide open expansive views. The climb from Rivendell to Moria didn't seem any more like "climbing up into the mountains" than the previous scenes around Weathertop had. Same thing with Rohan. It's supposed to be an endless grassy plain, good for horses to run on. But in the movies it's rocky and harsh, with only little bits of grass here and there, and I can only imagine it'd be hell to be a horse there. And Anduin was "supposed" to be huge, maybe not Mississippi-wide, but certainly Ohio at least. From the movies you get the impression it's just a meandering little stream. I realize that these are all limitations imposed by filming in New Zealand, and that's a decision that did give us plenty of really awesome sets like Hobbiton and Mt. Doom. And I couldn't have asked for a better rendition of Minas Tirith or Orthanc or even Meduseld. But people grouse all the time about how Tolkien gets hung up on talking about "landscapes"; and as someone who loves the landscape talk, I really wish they'd played a more memorable/iconic role in the films.
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Sep 7, 2016 17:33
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