Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Ynglaur posted:

One of the earlier books in The History of Middle-Earth (The Book of Lost Tales perhaps?) goes into this briefly. In essence, it was originally an impulse on Gandalf's part, and one which left him greatly troubled when he later thought upon it. Gandalf later came to believe that the idea was put into his mind by the Valar (most likely Manwe), or possibly even Illuvatar

My memory of the passage is sketchy, however, so anyone else: feel free to correct me.

Suuure, Gandalf. God made you do it. Had nothing to do with kicking Bilbo out of his rut because you thought it'd be funny.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2013 08:16

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 07:38

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

SUPERFINE CONCUBINE posted:

Hi friends! The second Hobbit movie was such a bit old disappointment that I started to re-read LOTR for the first time in years and am loving it again. The thing I like most about the books is how, every time I read them, I find something new to be interested in, and something new to not care about (sorry, Numenoreans. It's your turn). Anyway, I was wondering whether Tolkien ever specified how Beleriand fell into the sea? I am trying to imagine how a whole region disappears.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floods_in_the_Netherlands

Though Beleriand sank during the Valar war with Morgoth, so like the guy says above it would probably have been more like some hellish combination of earthquake/tsunami/storm surge/volcano/meteorite impact all happening at once, rather than storm surges chomping off a bit at a time.

The UK has a fair few lost lands that Tolkien could have been thinking of as well, like the Drowned Hundreds in Cardigan Bay and Lyonesse off the coast of Cornwall. And drowned villages by the score, often with legends of church bells you can hear ringing during storms.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2014 12:55

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

TildeATH posted:

I'm surprised somebody still hasn't written LoTR or Silmarillion from the perspective of a Romantic Sauron or Morgoth. Sauron could represent the long-oppressed East and Orcs, it would be easy. Morgoth would be harder and would have to be Gothic Romantic as per Folderol.

Is Jacqueline Carey's The Sundering close enough? I've never read it, since Kushiel's Dart bored to oblivion, so I can't comment on tone or quality.

And I guess there's Michael Aquino's Morlindal� too, if you want a Satanist's take on the mythology....

# ¿ Mar 27, 2014 08:22

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

The official Tolkien-sourced explanations range from "they won't fly over land where men are, because men shoot at them with bows" in The Hobbit to a very convoluted argument about how the Eagles are essentially Angels (just like Gandalf!) and are thus to some extent bound to non-interference. Then there's the problem that the Eagles would have been very visible targets (just like the Nazgul proved to be).

There's also this fan theory over on Reddit, which is basically that Gandalf meant to Go Eagle the whole time but it all fell apart in Moria.

And, of course, this.

Personally I see it that any flying thing that size would want to stay pretty close to mountains rather than trying to take off from flat ground, which would mean a route going right past Isengard/the Gap of Rohan and then flippetyflap along the White Mountains to Minas Tirith and a hop over to the Ephel Duath right in line with Minas Morgul - they couldn't make themselves more obvious if they tried. Sneaky hobbit commando mission was definitely the smart move.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2014 20:24

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

SirPhoebos posted:

Interesting, I had no idea a film version was being considered when Tolkein was still alive. Any place I can find more details?

You've never seen the Gene Deitch 1966 version then? King Bilbo FTW! (More details here)

# ¿ Dec 19, 2014 20:29

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

BatteredFeltFedora posted:

I have always thought that Gandalf's mastery of fire, both in explosive pine-cones and in pretty fireworks, was a result of his bearing Narya, the Ring of Fire.

From a fantasy epic standpoint, what is the practical difference between gunpowder and sorcerous "blasting fire"?

Any random with the ingredients and the formula can make gunpowder?

# ¿ Dec 22, 2014 01:09

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

SirPhoebos posted:

I need to re-read LotR, but isn't Arwen like only two or three generations removed from her common ancestor with Aragorn?

One generation - Aragorn's directly descended from Elros, Elrond's twin.

And when Bilbo sings his Earendil song in Rivendell he's singing about Elrond's dad, which I can't help but see as a fair bit of cheek.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 22:35

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Oracle posted:

Caradhras (which Sauron was able to throw snow at them and make them back down)

Tangential, but was it Sauron? The impression I always got from the book is "Caradhras is a dickhead mountain that hates people and throws poo poo at them if it gets a chance" - I always liked that as an example of other powers in Middle Earth that don't give a poo poo about Rings or Elves or wizards or Sauron, you can all just piss off and stop walking on me.

So I rolled my eyes at Saruman summoning snowstorms in the movie, but did Tolkien ever make it explicit what was going on with that weather?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2015 10:47

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

No Pants posted:

It isn't explicit in the book. Boromir says he hears voices in the wind and thinks the falling rocks are aimed at the party, Aragorn doesn't think there are voices but mentions old evils in the world not necessarily aligned with Sauron, and Gimli gets tinfoily about the actual mountain hating dwarves and elves. The movie takes Boromir's voices and attributes them to Saruman.

I must have liked Gimli's explanation most when I first read it. But are there any other examples in Middle-Earth of actual places with, well, sentience or personality or whatever it is that Caradhras would have in that case, that aren't that way because someone/something powerful ~~lives~~ hangs out there? (Barring the various forests, which are presumably down to elves/ents/Bombadil/Dol Guldur's runoff etc.)

# ¿ Jan 11, 2015 11:06

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Spoilers Below posted:

Because Sam doesn't want it.

That's what I've thought, anyways. Out of all the various people in the book, every-loving-body Frodo meets wants the Ring for themselves, or is at least tempted very strongly. Gandalf, Gollum, Galadriel, Boromir... Even Frodo himself wants to keep the thing, in the end. But not Sam. He just wanted to meet some Elves, throw the thing into the volcano, and go home.

And see an Oliphaunt. Don't forget the Oliphaunt.

# ¿ Jan 15, 2015 10:11

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Effectronica posted:

I'm guessing it has to do with the Roman/fascist salute given Saruman's ambitions.

More a reference to his general, um, craftiness*, as in technical skill/skill with his hands I'd think. He's the ring/palantir/Mysterious Ancient Construct expert, after all.

*it's not just Tolkien who mistrusts those smart-rear end techies.

Or maybe some inspiration from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hand_of_Ulster though I can't think what.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2015 10:55

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

NikkolasKing posted:

The only part of The Silmarillion that could possibly make a good movie is the story of Turin. It was easily the most "personal" story in The Sil as it chronicled more of his life and his feelings than any other character. Probably why Tolkien also went and wrote The Children of Hurin.

But thank God Chris Tolkien is alive to prevent that from happening. I was curious, can he put a stipulation in his will or something that whoever gets the rights to The Silmarillion after his death cannot ever sell them to filmmakers?

The Ainulindale could make a nice trippy Fantasia-type sequence with the right music and art - Evan Palmer's comic version is good; I particularly like his Melkor. And an animated version of Beren and Luthien could really work well, done by a studio like Ghibli. Though if Disney did it I guess there's a built-in musical number when Luthien sings Morgoth to sleep... :stonklol:

# ¿ May 2, 2015 14:47

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

VanSandman posted:

Beren and Luthien would make a kickin' rad animated film.

Hopefully involving the evil cats from the early version. Forcing Beren to hunt giant mutant Morgul-mice with his bare hands. :3:

# ¿ May 2, 2015 16:07

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Lord Hydronium posted:

Saruman was also one of Aule's. That guy did not have a good track record.

Like I've said before, Tolkien really didn't trust techie/mechanically minded types.

Even down to the Miller.

# ¿ May 11, 2015 13:17

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

HIJK posted:

Melian had Luthien with her elf husband. Maiar can reproduce if they choose.

I got the impression that they'd need a mortal spouse - Melian seems to be sort of... tied to physicality? by Thingol - as soon as he dies she can't maintain the Girdle any more and bogs off back to Valinor.

It could just be that she didn't want to stay in Middle-Earth any more after her husband was murdered of course.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2015 19:45

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

anilEhilated posted:

edit: I also seem to remember that Luthien didn't give up her elvish ancestry - she talked Mandos into giving her and Beren a second life and I think they didn't age or anything.

No, she gave up her elvishness to get Beren's life back and to ensure that when they died (again) they'd both go wherever it is Men go instead of her going to the Halls of Mandos.

# ¿ Jun 20, 2015 18:14

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Just in case anyone hasn't seen this yet:

The Most Metal Deaths in Middle-earth, Ranked

# ¿ Jun 25, 2015 07:50

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

The Belgian posted:

The Silm mentions elves wandering off to all sorts of places and splitting into a wide variety of subgroups, but the east and south of the world are never discussed in any detail in Tolkien's work.

Well, most of them headed west to Valinor and some of those got bored and stopped off on the way, so the south and south-east is probably fairly elf-free.

Re racial characteristics though, I'm with Hogge Wild.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2015 08:58

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Isn't Mim the Dwarf pottering around with a sack of potatoes when Turin and his gang first jump him?

# ¿ Jul 12, 2015 08:56

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Smoking Crow posted:

No I have to read the whole thing

Don't read it all in order then.

Or just restart at the Prancing Pony.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2015 20:22

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Octy posted:

This is cool and silly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/lord-of-the-rings/minas-tirit-crowdfund/

Followed a link from there to this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/11260667/The-Hobbit-Tolkiens-adventures-in-Hollywood.html

quote:

Back in 1969, United Artists didn�t hang around. Almost as soon as they had the rights, the studio contacted John Boorman, who was planning a fantasy picture inspired by Arthurian legend, and asked him to submit a treatment for a Lord of the Rings film. What he came back with was more like reconstructive surgery.

Boorman�s proposed film sounds incredible, and absolutely nothing like The Lord of the Rings. For one thing, as soon as Frodo arrives in the forest realm Lothl�rien, he�s seduced into bed by Galadriel. For another, the strapping Aragorn and Boromir lustily kiss each other on the lips. There�s also a scene in which Aragorn saves Eowyn�s life by giving her a magical orgasm. If Tumblr had been around in the mid-1970s, John Boorman�s Lord of the Rings would have caused an online meltdown. The script is seeping with sex, which is the one thing you never, ever find in Tolkien.

What�s more, Boorman�s co-writer Rospo Pallenberg was keen to bring the Beatles back on board, although in the roles of the four main Hobbits: Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin. It took Boorman and Pallenberg six months to write their script, which they did in seclusion in Boorman�s crumbling rectory in County Wicklow.

But by the time they�d finished, the particular executive who�d hand-picked Boorman for the job had left the studio, and his former colleagues were perplexed by this 176-page libidinous epic that turned up one morning in their in-trays. (Not that they knew enough about Tolkien�s original work to recognise the soaring weirdness of Boorman�s take on it: �No-one else there had actually read the book,� he later lamented.)

# ¿ Aug 15, 2015 14:23

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Josef K. Sourdust posted:

The Minas Tirith kickstarter has raised �13,000. I'll look in the gap in my sofa. I am sure I can find 50p.

What's the view of BBC's LOTR?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_(1981_radio_series)

It was 26 x 30 min episodes. it was released on cassette and CD. You won't find the episodes on YouTube but the soundtrack does appear frequently. I am sure British goons itt will remember it. Views?

Really good, I'm told by Tolkien-loving friends, though I've never heard it myself.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2015 22:31

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Yeah, it's basically a doomy Norse saga with added Dark-Lord-gonna-make-you-watch-while-your-family-gets-hosed-over.

# ¿ Sep 3, 2015 16:31

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Prolonged Priapism posted:

Yeah the words "drive" and "car" were in use well before their modern definitions, and meant the same thing, just applied to animal-powered vehicles.

The line, "Aragorn and Legolas went now with �omer in the van" confused the hell out of me as a kid. Why hadn't the van been mentioned before? Wasn't it really bumpy driving over the plain? Where were they getting the petrol?

# ¿ Jan 9, 2016 23:08

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Alhazred posted:

Did you know that Tove Jansson's illustrated Lord of the Rings are incredible dumb? I didn't! Tank you Cracked for showing me the light.

How dare you diss the artist who throws the best wolf/goblin parties ever!

Look at those fuckin' wolves having the time of their lives!

# ¿ Jun 25, 2016 12:17

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Bongo Bill posted:

The best adaptation of the Silmarillion would be similar to Fantasia, I think.

http://www.evanpalmercomics.com/ainulindale/

# ¿ Aug 20, 2016 10:54

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Time for this again?

The Most Metal Deaths in Middle-earth, Ranked

# ¿ Aug 22, 2016 21:52

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Mr. Neutron posted:

They really are not, though, granted, you need to read the Silmarilion and his letter no. 210 to understand why. I never understood why the Jackson movies didn�t provide at least some of this information. To the outside viewer it really looks like a plot hole.

As I understand it the Tolkien estate kept lawyers slavering at the leash for the slightest hint that Jackson &co were referencing anything they didn't have film rights to.

VanSandman posted:

Agreed! That's why it bothers me. Turn Saruman over to the White Council, sure, but don't couch it in terms like 'right to judge.'

It does fit with the whole lecture Gandalf gives Frodo about how many live who deserve to die, though. And since that's talking about Gollum I don't think Frodo's thinking "Saruman is too superior to us for us to dare to judge him" more than "we shouldn't go around killing people".

# ¿ Sep 6, 2016 20:03

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

drrockso20 posted:

When it comes to Middle Earth art these days, my favorite is from an artist over on Deviantart who goes by Turner Mohan, there's a sense of believability to his stuff(but at the same time not held back by "realism" needlessly) while still retaining the inherent fantasy of the setting, especially love the way he draws the Orcs, and he did an absolutely lovely piece for the Blue Wizards

I love breath-art's Tolkien stuff - much more stylized and abstract, but so, so pretty: http://breath-art.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=%2F&q=tolkien

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 23:26

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

elise the great posted:

I remember a lot of my friends were hacked the gently caress off when Arwen initially spoke in the first movie. Apparently her consonants were too soft and sounded Feanorian (???) but I am not a linguist in any way and mostly just laughed at them for giving a poo poo what her 'th' phonemes sounded like when IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE GLORFINDEL UGH

Is this the Tolkien nerd equivalent of whining on about vocal fry?

# ¿ Jan 6, 2017 19:06

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

chernobyl kinsman posted:

where? i wasn't aware it'd been published

John Rateliff, The History of The Hobbit. It's included in book 2, Return to Bag-End.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2017 22:27

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

sassassin posted:

She then reverts to book Arwen for the rest of the trilogy.

Movie-Arwen also gets to fall swoonily ill as the POWER of DARKNESS covers Middle-Earth, and nag her dad into reforging Narsil so he can turn up with it and dump a ton of emo poo poo on Aragorn in whichever of the movies it was - TT I guess?

But that's all just in case the audience forgot Aragorn was a girlfriend-haver.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2017 13:16

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Anyone got Beren and Luthien yet? Is it worth the money, or just a rearrangement of the Silmarillion material?

# ¿ Jun 18, 2017 09:50

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Bongo Bill posted:

Okay, so, I'm still going through it, but it's focused heavily on the evolution of the story itself.

It starts with the oldest version of the story of Beren and Luthien, which is very different and much simpler than the version you know. Then it tells the full version, alternating between summaries drawn from earlier drafts of what would become The Silmarillion, and poetic treatments of important scenes in them taken from The Lays of Beleriand and other sources.

Cool, thanks. As soon as I can afford to get myself treats, then....

# ¿ Jun 24, 2017 09:52

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

sassassin posted:

I think we can all agree that the Tolkien estate is right to keep The Silmarillion etc. out of the hands of Hollywood.

I will never stop hoping for the Studio Ghibli Lay of Leithian.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2017 20:00

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

skasion posted:

It's somewhere in the early books of History of Middle Earth, Lays of Beleriand maybe?

Rateliff covers it in The History of The Hobbit too, IIRC

# ¿ Aug 6, 2017 21:54

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

NikkolasKing posted:

I'm bothered less by Sexy Shelob and more by her change in personality. I liked that in the books she couldn't care less about rings or wars or Sauron. Everyone in Middle-earth is (rightly) scared shitless of the Dark Lord she has as a neighbor but he is of absolutely no concern to her. With Durin's Bane and Smaug dead, she's pretty much the last Great Evil of the First Age in Arda.

But apparently, her characterization here is that she is sort of a spurned lover and is salty at Sauron for neglecting her or something.

Maybe they read Bored of the Rings by mistake.

Schlob, was she now called. For eons she nurtured her pique, obsessively stuffing herself with bon-bons, movie magazines, and an occasional spelunker. At first, Sorhed dutifully sent her monthly alimony payments of a dozen or so narc volunteers, but these gifts soon stopped when word got around what a dinner invitation with Sorhed's ex actually entailed.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

It is interesting that there is no alluring femme fatale Ayesha type character i can think of in all Tolkien's work. If you're a girl, you're hot or you're a spider.

Mayyybe Queen Beruthiel?

# ¿ Aug 15, 2017 20:54

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

skasion posted:

Oh, you can also be an old biddy like Lobelia or Ioreth.

Lobelia is awesome. I only wish we had the scene where she told Saruman her opinion of him.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2017 23:26

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Radio! posted:

I agree with this, but I also feel like the potential for Sauron to be that kind of villain is there moreso than it is for Morgoth. If Sauron's stint in Numenor before the fall had been written in the same style as LotR instead of in the detached/distant format of the Sil, we would have seen Sauron as a contemptible schemer much in the same vein as Wormtongue (only more successful in the end, obviously).

I think Sauron in the Sil at least is a different kind of deity than Morgoth- more of a trickster god (Annatar, him turning into a wolf to defeat Huan) than Morgoth is.

Yeah, the bit where he's sitting in the temple laughing his head off about Ar-Pharazon and his fleet heading West and then SPLAT has a lot of the trickster-tricked flavour.

# ¿ Aug 18, 2017 08:35

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 07:38

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

This made me laugh: http://r-navy.tumblr.com/post/118074165045/mirkwood-daily-d

# ¿ Aug 27, 2017 15:47

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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