Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I also love the Bombadil chapters. I think it is popular to hate them for some reason.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2013 18:05

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 13:35

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I read it as Gandalf talking him into it.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2013 03:07

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Yeah Gandalf and the Elves.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2013 03:11

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

It was also a selfless distraction in part. It diverted Sauron's attention from Frodo et al.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2013 03:19

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I understand Bombadil as evidence that the Elves understanding of the gods and creation of the world (as transmitted fictionally through JRRT's works [which are all from the POV of elves {and closely associated men}]) is incomplete (and thus somewhat flawed.)

Relatedly we don't have a good explanation or understanding of Orcs because the Elves didn't care about Orcs. And we don't know about the East and South because the Elves never lived in the South and lived in the East like 8 billion years ago and left.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2013 15:25

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

That is a theory at least. Even in the Silmarillion it is presented as probable but not known for sure. It does however fit the Elvish racial supremacy themes of that lore nicely though (i.e., Orcs are a "corrupted" version of Elves)

edit

Let me put it another way: regardless of how Orcs were actually created (in this fictional world) the Silmarillion story of their creation is exactly what you expect the Elves to say about them.

euphronius fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Feb 19, 2013

# ¿ Feb 19, 2013 16:03

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I don't think it is black and white in Silmarillion. Even if it were, you would be taking a fundamentalist and literalistic approach to the Silmarillion which I don't think I would do. In my opinion the (fictional) veracity of the collected stories in that book varies.

Edit

Here is the passage

quote:

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is
known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of
Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this
is held true by the wise of Eress�a, that all those of the Quendi who came
into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in
prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus
did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the
Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had
life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Il�vatar; and naught
that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make
since his rebellion in the Ainulindal� before the Beginning: so say the
wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom
they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the
vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Il�vatar.

The bolding is mine to highlight the dodgy language used. This origin story is only a theory of the Elves within their own collection of histories. In other words, it is a theory to the Elves in the fictional world.

This is not even getting into the issues the JRRT was redoing the origins of the Orcs when he passed.

euphronius fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Feb 19, 2013

# ¿ Feb 19, 2013 16:17

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Even if you take it as written by an omniscient author, the text indicates clearly that the origin of Orcs is not known for certain (by the Elves. The Orcs may know).

VVVV a decent summary from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29#A_list_of_origins.2C_proposed_by_Tolkien

# ¿ Feb 19, 2013 16:26

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

The in-world explanation is: he is a Maia. (as is Goldberry.)

They both came to middle earth very early.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2013 19:01

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

concerned mom posted:

Or some kind of spirit of nature that is imbued within the planet.

Exactly. Which are called Maiar (or the Valar).

# ¿ Mar 14, 2013 19:05

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Here is the section from the Silmarillion

quote:

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Il ̇vatar
beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of
the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Il ̇vatar and descended into
it. But this condition Il ̇vatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that
their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World,
to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is
theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
But when the Valar entered into E� they were at first astounded
and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in
vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was
dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of
thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now
they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that
the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve
it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored,
and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in
the midst of the vast halls of E� there came to be that hour and that place
where was made the habitation of the Children of Il ̇vatar. And in this
work the chief part was taken by Manw� and Aul� and Ulmo; but Melkor
too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning
it if he might to his own desires and purposes; and he kindled great fires.
When therefore Earth was yet young and full of flame Melkor coveted it,
and he said to the other Valar: �This shall be my own kingdom; and I
name it unto myself!�

It does not say Melkor was exclusively first.

Also from FotR

quote:

'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my name
yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are
young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the
river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the
Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the
Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were
bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless � before the Dark Lord came from
Outside.'

euphronius fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Mar 14, 2013

# ¿ Mar 14, 2013 19:22

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

quote:

But when the Valar entered into E� they were at first astounded
and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in
vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was
dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of
thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now
they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that
the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve
it.

So the Valar enter into Ea nothing is there, even though they thought of Arda in the Ainulindale. Bombadillo has to enter Ea and Arda at this point. He may have been the first Vala to be in Arda or whatever.

This is the in-universe explanation at least.

I think the out of universe explanation that JRRT just plopped one of his poetic creations in to be persuasive too.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2013 22:02

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Hobbits are men.

euphronius fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Mar 29, 2013

# ¿ Mar 29, 2013 20:37

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

quote:

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are
relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves.
Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion,
and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what
exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The be-
ginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now
lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of
that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost en-
tirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and
Hobbits are not mentioned at all. Yet it is clear that Hobbits had,
in fact, lived quietly in Middle-earth for many long years before
other folk became even aware of them

So Hobbits "split" from Men in the First Age which was about 5,000 years before the Lord of the Rings.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2013 20:59

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

They aren't dwarves, orcs, or elves, so . . . . Men.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2013 00:50

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Elf ~ Man love is really rare and even then the offspring has to choose elf or man.

Each race has a defined and different afterlife. Well orcs don't, but hobbits arent orcs. Races are defined by their afterlife. Hobbits die like Men.

I guess hobbits aren't Ents either.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2013 00:57

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Are you thinking of Tol Eress�a?

# ¿ Mar 30, 2013 04:13

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Elves do not die in Valinor. Men do. Can't stop men from dying. Except for Tuor. But that is a special case.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2013 22:55

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Fog Tripper posted:

Don't harsh my mellow. Bilbo and Frodo are there still, chilling with the elves, a full pipe and smoke rings. Damnit.

I finally found some textual support for my bald assertions. This passage is the Numenorians talking to the Valar through the Eldar as intermediaries:

quote:

And they said among themselves: �Why do the Lords of the West
sit there in peace unending, while we must die and go we know not
whither, leaving our home and all that we have made? And the Eldar die
not, even those that rebelled against the Lords. And since we have mastered
all seas, and no water is so wild or so wide that our ships cannot overcome
it, why should we not go to Avall�n� and greet there our friends?�
And some there were who said: �Why should we not go even to
Aman, and taste there, were it but for a day, the bliss of the Powers? Have
we not become mighty among the people of Arda?�
The Eldar reported these words to the Valar, and Manw� was
grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noontide of N ̇menor. And he sent
messengers to the D ̇nedain, who spoke earnestly to the King, and to all
who would listen, concerning the fate and fashion of the world.
�The Doom of the World,� they said, �One alone can change who
made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares
you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you.
For it is not the land of Manw� that makes its people deathless, but the
Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would
but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and
steadfast.

Sorry for the pdf artifacts.

# ¿ Mar 31, 2013 17:28

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

That is the same Glorfindal as in LOTR.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2013 11:48

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

It is confirmed in the book the Peoples of Middle Earth.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2013 12:12

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Tuor even got turned into an elf, which is unique. He is the boring hero to Turin's tortured anti hero. Tuor did everything right, listened to Ulmo and was loyal.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2013 15:56

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Thranduil never went to Valinor in the time of the two trees so he is a relatively nonpowerful elf. The most powerful elves in middle earth would be he ones who were in Valinor during the days of the two trees. Galadriel then is the most powerful elf in middle earth at the time of The Lord of he Rings.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2013 16:09

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I think there is no more of an eternal divide than that between those who think the Fellowship is slow and boring against those that think the Fellowship is the finest example of English prose fantasy ever written and the highlight of all JRRt's work.

# ¿ Jul 9, 2013 00:46

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Hiro Protagonist posted:

So, I've seen the movies, and I've read the Hobbit, but I've never read the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion. However, because I'm already somewhat familiar with Lord of the Rings through of the movies, I decided I'd read the Silmarillion first, because while I've heard a bit about some of the stories(via references and ultra-Tolkien-fan friends), I know a lot less, and I figure reading the Silmarillion will help me get the most out of Lord of the Rings. Also, I'm weird and love religious and mythology-based texts. Is there any advice or things I should know ahead of time?

Listen to the Tolkien Professors podcasts on the Silmarilllion as you read it. It is dense and amazing.

euphronius fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Nov 9, 2013

# ¿ Nov 9, 2013 05:26

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

They were servants of melkor not sauron. He probably had his own ideas about he wanted to do.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2013 20:48

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I think most of the info for Angmar is from the Silmarillion. Of course LOTR online I think does a lot with Angmar.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2013 17:19

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Chris Tolkien has the poo poo locked down man. That isn't going to happen (other than Chris's stuff).

# ¿ Dec 30, 2013 18:34

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

He has not been the only author listed on his JRRT work but his "editing" consists of a lot of writing, which was my point.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2013 20:05

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

SirPhoebos posted:

Plot Sense

i.e. the will of Iluvatar.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2013 16:38

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Only after she ate the light of the two trees.

But basically I just take the Silmarillion as the Elves flawed and not 100 percent omniscient tale.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2014 14:09

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

They are all Ainur of some kind, in my opinion. Tom, Ungoliant, Goldberry. (Everyone forgets Goldberry!)

# ¿ Mar 14, 2014 18:08

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Read the Shelob chapter again for an example of creepy darkness magic she has - and must have inherited from Ungoliant. Ungoliant is referred to having "unlight". Which is much cooler than darkness.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2014 22:18

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I've listened to about 85% of every Tolkien Prof podcast. Remember he posts on Mythguard Academy too.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2014 19:22

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Hahah yes that guy was terrible. He had a good point like 1/20 of the time and it took it 5 minutes to say it.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2014 01:59

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Yes the Arkenstone is totally a Silmaril in all but name.

If Gandalf or Galadriel claimed the Ring, Sauron's spirit would probably diminish to irrelevancy.

euphronius fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Mar 24, 2014

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 01:52

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

He said it isn't an Allegory. Not that there isn't references to his time. The Scouring of the shire is replete with modern references for example. Well modern to JRRT.

There is no hidden meaning to LOTR. It is a story about Middle Earth and that's it.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 15:45

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

His works arent Allegorical. You dont need to know what JRRT thought to see that. And if you go down the Allegory road you miss a lot of the books and stories anyway. Is Saruman supposed to be a modern extremist politician using the power of media to arouse the People on class lines?

If someone of strong enough Will used the Ring Sauron would never get it back. The One Ring is not like the 7 or the 9, which were just traps.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 15:51

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Aragorn also had the right to the Ring because Isildur had claimed it.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 18:35

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 13:35

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Kicked Sauron's rear end when Sauron had the Ring no less.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 18:46

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