Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Millions posted:

I have an irresistible urge to buy every edition of LoTR with a cool cover... which is nearly all of them. Too bad I can't find every Middle-Earth book in the same style as the three above.

I've got these which are really nice:

# ¿ Feb 7, 2013 01:19

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 20:08

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Yeah, I think Tolkien does briefly go into their possible origins as being an off-shoot of Men. We know they originally dwelt in the Vales of Anduin (that's where Smeagol came from) but I don't recall if it was told when they moved to the Shire.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2013 00:48

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Is there anything about what might happen to Orcs when they die?

# ¿ Mar 30, 2013 01:08

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

euphronius posted:

That is the same Glorfindal as in LOTR.

It was never confirmed. Even Tolkien was unsure about it when he realised the mistake.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2013 12:08

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Tolkien messed up but I'm pretty sure he never edited Lord of the Rings to reflect the change of the two characters being the same person.

quote:

In The Return of the Shadow, Christopher Tolkien states that some time after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, his father "gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel" in the book, and decided that it was a "somewhat random use" of a name from The Silmarillion that would probably have been changed, had it been noticed sooner.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2013 13:13

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Radio! posted:

Oh my god, that art is incredible.

In return I give you What Middle-Earth would look like from space.

Spend the weekend exploring a simulation of Middle-earth instead of writing essays? Sounds good to me.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2014 06:25

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

SUPERFINE CONCUBINE posted:

Hi friends! The second Hobbit movie was such a bit old disappointment that I started to re-read LOTR for the first time in years and am loving it again. The thing I like most about the books is how, every time I read them, I find something new to be interested in, and something new to not care about (sorry, Numenoreans. It's your turn). Anyway, I was wondering whether Tolkien ever specified how Beleriand fell into the sea? I am trying to imagine how a whole region disappears.

I don't know. I always guessed it to be a massive earthquake followed by a tsunami.

But yes, I'm also re-reading LotR for the first time in years and there's so much detail packed in there. I often forget that PJ's adaptations cut out a lot of stuff, beyond obvious chapters like The Old Forest and the Scouring of the Shire.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2014 11:26

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

^ Yeah, but it's lucky Frodo and Sam just happened to be about to toss the Ring into Mount Doom when Aragorn and co. were making their last stand against Sauron. Talk about good timing.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2014 12:02

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

BatteredFeltFedora posted:

There's a great conversation in RotK that Sam overhears when he's trying to figure out how to rescue Frodo, who has been poisoned by Shelob and captured by orcs.

Two of them are talking about the "old days" and mention the "Great Siege" as if they were there. This is probably the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, where Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age. Three thousand years prior.

They also talk about the Nazgul as Sauron's favorites "nowadays", implying that they remember a time before the Ring-wraiths were around. Since the Nine Rings were distributed sometime midway through the Second Age, that corroborates the dating and possibly adds at least a thousand years.

So at least some orcs are old as hell, and possibly immortal if not killed by violence.

Yes, but then a chapter later the orcs all kill each other in a fight. It's hard to believe any orc could survive more than a few years (months/weeks/days).

# ¿ Mar 27, 2014 22:34

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

I'm sure if you know the right people it can't be that hard. My family has what I think is a fairly old edition of The Hobbit with Tolkien's 'Conversation with Smaug' cover. I suspect it doesn't pre-date LotR, though. I've had my own newer version with the original cover since I was about 11 or 12.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2014 11:48

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Data Graham posted:

I was probably getting it confused with Game of Thrones. I know "braid-pulling" is a thing though.

Can't be any worse than jape, japing and japery.

# ¿ Aug 22, 2014 12:25

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Bongo Bill posted:

The other reason why not the Eagles is because Sauron had an air force.

Yes, but how large was the air force? We only know of the fellbeasts (correct me if I'm wrong). I guess it's possible Sauron had other creatures being cooked up in his lab, but the Eagles should surely outnumber the fellbeasts.

# ¿ Dec 20, 2014 10:44

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Bendigeidfran posted:

Does Tolkien ever explain why he left the East of Middle-Earth so undetailed? Because he puts four whole clans of dwarves, two blue wizards, most of the Avari elves, the lake Cuivienen, possibly some ents, and a bunch of cultures of Men there. Sure most of the story involves Sauron/Morgoth and the people of the West, but it seems unlike him to leave so many places under a big question mark.

And, uh, license-wise is anyone allowed to fill in those gaps if they wanted to?

I'm not sure, but I like the mystery even if it is maddening. The only person I would trust to fill in the gaps is Christopher.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2015 05:41

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Nessus posted:

It all goes public domain at some point, doesn't it?

I always assumed the rights would remain in the hands of the Tolkien Estate, but I'm not up on copyright law.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2015 07:11

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Legacyspy posted:

Is middle earth really sparsely populated for its time (compared to our history)? Or is that just the impression I get from the movies?

I last read the books through when I was a kid, so most of my awareness comes from the movies and browsing the lotr wikis occasionally.

Like, as far as I'm aware these are the people of middle earth (just concerning myself with the west).

The Shire
Bree
Rivendell
Rangers like Aragorn (Do they have cities and stuff? How do they live?)
Elves of Mirkwood
Elves of Lorien
Elves of that shipyard place to the west.
Dale
Dwarves of Erebor
Dwarves who came to help retake Erebor
Rohan (Which is just Edora + country side? Are there other major towns and cities?)
The wild people of Rohan who serve controls.
Minas Tirith
That shipyard south of Minas Tirith

Looking at some other maps of middle earth I see some other cities... but after looking them they appear to be ruins. So yeah, was there more to Rohan than just edoras? Were there other cities like Dale? Other towns like Bree?
Was the area west of the misty mountains pretty much not populated aside from the stuff around the shire? Were there just some towns and villages of people farming the countryside? Or was it just wilderness?
Any other cities the size of Minas Tirith? Any other cities in Gondor?

I count about half a dozen settlements in Gondor, but I don't think anything reaching the size of Minas Tirith. Rohan seems to be more sparsely inhabited. Arnor-Eriador is absolutely full of towns.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2015 07:26

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

This seemed like an interesting question but one that's solvable from the military statistics we see in the book, and so I did a quick google and found this interesting blog post where someone had done the work for me:

http://armchairthinker.com/blog/2013/03/25/demography-of-middle-earth-gondor/

http://armchairthinker.com/blog/2013/07/04/demography-of-middle-earth-rohan/

I wish I was younger and had more time to write up stuff about fictional universes because this is exactly the sort of thing 12 year old me would have done. A total population of 3 or 4 million for Gondor sounds absurd, though, and I'm glad it isn't ignored in the addendum.

Octy fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Jan 21, 2015

# ¿ Jan 21, 2015 08:47

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Murgos posted:

That's assuming a 1% conscription rating and a generously literal definition of tithe. He also conflates the population of England in 1066 with the total population available for conscription to Harold II. These are not the same. Harold was drawing on a much smaller pool than that total.

Personally, I doubt if JRRT spent much time trying to tie the size of the armies of Gondor and Rohan to historical precedent and wouldn't expect it to be rational. If you wanted to make a realism argument with the size (750,000 sq miles) and (mild Mediterranean) climate and level of technological sophistication of Gondor and centuries of relative peace they should have been able to field armies equivalent to Ancient Rome in it's heyday with a dense and thriving population supporting it.

Yeah, certainly in its heyday Gondor could have fielded huge armies, as they did in the War of the Last Alliance. I see Gondor in the late Third Age as being more like a very early feudal army. You're not going to get anything much bigger than 50 000 total and in all likelihood they're not going to have received the same kind of professional training as their predecessors.

Octy fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 21, 2015

# ¿ Jan 21, 2015 22:25

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Data Graham posted:

He tried at one point, if I recall; but also he was worried that if he made a big show of looking for the Ring in the Gladden Fields, the others on the White Council would know what he was up to. This after he had gone to some lengths to convince them that he thought the Ring had been washed out to sea long before.

Yeah, but surely 1000+ years is long enough to slowly and covertly look for it. Saruman was just lazy.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2015 02:08

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

webmeister posted:

Revisiting Silmarillion-chat from a few days ago, I've actually always thought the story of Numenor would make a good movie. Especially if you got a really charismatic actor to play Sauron. Lots of great political drama between him, the king and Elendil, tense moments as the kingdom gradually falls apart, huge action set-pieces as the Numenoreans assault first Mordor, then later the lands of the Valar. And of course the huge wave that destroys the island, followed by the requisite happy ending with the founding of the kingdoms in exile.

If you wanted to tie it in to the LOTR movies, you could even frame it with Aragorn telling the tale to his son. Who wouldn't want to watch that?

Get Michael Fassbender in here.

# ¿ May 9, 2015 07:30

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Nessus posted:

I thought the whole image of British cuisine being lovely was because of the nine years of rationing during the war, more than it being inherently poo poo. So obviously Big T was thinking of that.

I'd probably take Italian over British cuisine, but the latter actually is really good, especially for sweet stuff. I don't know why people persist with the idea that British cuisine is bad.

# ¿ May 28, 2015 22:48

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

SHISHKABOB posted:

His scars were from fighting dragons from the north. He says something like "you're not the only one who knows the threat of dragons" as he flashes the scars.

And the dragons came from who know where. Big wormy things. Then he put wings on them.

I understand there's a theory that dragons are similar to Balrogs in being Maiar. I just assumed they were a corrupted form of eagles when I was younger, though, but I don't know if Tolkien ever said anything about that.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2015 08:16

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

This makes for an interesting read on the origin of dragons.

http://cogitemusaccurate.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/concerning-origin-of-dragons.html

# ¿ Jul 4, 2015 09:19

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

This is cool and silly.

quote:

A group of architects has launched a crowdfunding campaign in the hopes of raising almost �2 billion in order to build a lifesize replica of Lord of the Rings city Minas Tirith in the south of England.

If they manage to raise the sum within the 60 day limit, Tolkien fans will then have the chance to live or work in the creation, whose original version was laid siege to by the full forces of Mordor in The Return of the King.

The campaign's leader, Jonathan Wilson, has estimated building costs of �15 million for land, �188 million for labour and �1.4 billion for materials.

Any money left over after the project is finished after 2023 will be used for "maintenance and public services" until 2053.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/lord-of-the-rings/minas-tirit-crowdfund/

But now there's a twist, because the author Tom Stacey has launched a rival movement with the aim of destroying the city.

quote:

The distinctly tongue-in-cheek operation, named Destroy Minas Tirith, aims to raise �1 million in order to recreate the Orc siege of the city as shown in JRR Tolkien's final Lord of the Rings book, The Return of the King, and made even more famous by Peter Jackson's film.

Orcish organiser Stom Tacey, more usually known as fantasy author Tom Stacey, said that it was right to celebrate the Time of Orcs.

"As loyal servants of the Dark Lord, we cannot allow this to happen," he wrote in a mission statement. "Join me in gnashing your teeth and stamping your feet. Your gold will buy many pointy and shiny things which we can stick the humans with."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/lord-of-the-rings/orcs-launch-crowdfunding-campaign-to-destroy-minas-tirith/

Octy fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Aug 15, 2015

# ¿ Aug 15, 2015 00:16

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Yeah, I think building it in England is a bit ambitious given the lack of real mountains, unless they intend on building the mountain first.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2015 03:20

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

My Aragorn and Boromir romantic fanfic was so close to being on the big screen?!

# ¿ Aug 15, 2015 14:46

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

drat. The minute I decide to re-read the books, the conversation here dries up. You even had me wanting to read the Silmarillion again after 15 years.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2016 10:34

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Indeed. I'm having just enough fun on my own thinking about Glorfindel! There's so much extra lore in these books which isn't in the movies that I feel like I 'learn' something new every time.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2016 06:22

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Funky See Funky Do posted:

I've recently started revisiting this stuff on audiobook after not touching it for almost two decades and I have a question that's been in the back of my mind for a while: What do the Bagginses', Tooks and Brandybucks actually do for a living? Are they essentially just feudal landowners growing fat off the toil of the other Hobbits while living comfortable lives in their mansion holes? I was obsessed with Tolkien as a teenager and had borderline encyclopedic knowledge of his work and I can't dredge up a single memory of him describing any of these families doing anything that would be considered a job.

Yeah, I think they pretty much are just feudal landowners, although Bilbo at least worked to increase his wealth in a way. Frankly, I'm more interested in the social structure of the Elves. They can't all spend their time swanning around like Galadriel, surely.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 04:53

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Who's Steve Jackson and what did he do for orcs' rights?

# ¿ Feb 2, 2017 11:46

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

A direct descendant from an unbroken line dating back almost 2000 years sounds bloody unlikely, however, I'll eat my hat to see these supposed records.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2017 00:45

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Well, then again, there is this guy who may have a better claim to the Welsh throne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Watkin_Williams-Wynn,_11th_Baronet

# ¿ Mar 3, 2017 02:13

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Wrong thread

# ¿ May 17, 2018 10:57

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

I don't have anything to contribute but I've loved reading the discussion from the last few days and to hell with it, I'm gonna read LotR again.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2018 09:48

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Just came to post that Sam Gamgee is an absolute pisspot.

quote:

Frodo stepped inside the dark door. 'Sam!' he called. 'Sam! Time!'

'Coming, sir!' came the answer from far within, followed soon by Sam himself, wiping his mouth. He had been saying farewell to the beer-barrel in the cellar.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2018 08:02

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

skasion posted:

Tbh he had a point, they next get a drink in Bree, then a shot of Gandalf�s flavored elvish vodka on Caradhras, and then what? Water increasingly tainted by industrial effluent all the way to

[quote="skasion" post="487841847"]
Tbh he had a point, they next get a drink in Bree, then a shot of Gandalf�s flavored elvish vodka on Caradhras, and then what? Water increasingly tainted by industrial effluent all the way to Doom.

Maybe Bombadil�s moonshine counts as well but idk.

Actually now that I flip through it Faramir gives them enough wine to make Sam forget himself as well. This book has more drinking than I remember.

On the contrary, Gildor gives them something that sounds like dessert wine. The effect is similar to alcohol anyway.

quote:

They found that the Elves had filled their bottles with a clear drink, pale golden in colour: it had the scent of a honey made of many flowers... very soon they were laughing, and snapping their fingers at rain, and at Black Riders.

Also they get wrecked immediately afterwards on Farmer Maggot's beer.

Octy fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Sep 11, 2018

# ¿ Sep 11, 2018 21:02

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Elves drinking mead? Get outta here!

# ¿ Sep 11, 2018 21:18

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Nessus posted:

I dunno, Sam's dialogue is more coherent than your posting

e: And less stereotyped!

Coherent to the point where Frodo thinks it's worth describing Sam's face as 'unusually thoughtful'.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2018 21:36

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

It was a classic Sauternes from about 2930, I tell you.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2018 22:18

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Sounds like a boring rear end sim game to me. If I was playing God, I'd definitely introduce war and destruction to my inhabitants to make it fun.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2018 23:36

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 20:08

Octy: Apr 1, 2010

Re: Tom Bombadil just after he rescued the hobbits from the wight.

quote:

He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last:

'Here is a pretty toy for Tom and his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!'

Is it mentioned elsewhere who the brooch might have belonged to? Its certainly implied Tom knew her. Or am I just overthinking this and it's a throwaway line?

# ¿ Sep 14, 2018 10:06

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