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So there's something that always troubled me with LotR, and that's the corrupting influence of the One Ring. Everyone is talking about "becoming Sauron" and I've always seen that represented as literally being dominated by Sauron, such that you have to give up the One Ring to old One Eye. But if that was the case, then it would be very foolish for Sauron to actively fight to get the One Ring back, because his best bet would be to hang out in Mordor and wait for the One Ring to do its job on Frodo/Aragorn/Gandalf/Galadrial, until the dominated wraith-slave ends up bringing the ring back to its master. But I always assumed that it meant Becoming Sauron in the sense of becoming "As big of a vile SOB as Sauron", i.e. no one would know the difference between Sauron Classic and Galadrial-Sauron. But if that's the case, then it implies that, in the long-term, somehow the one who becomes New Sauron could eventually destroy Sauron Classic, but that's at odds with canon claims to immortality unless the One Ring is destroyed. So what I'm asking is, what's the current view on what happens to a dominant personality like Aragorn or Galadrial "taking the Ring"? Do they Become Sauron or Become Like Sauron and, what happens to the Sauron Classic in either case? Far more confusing than Balrog wings, in my mind.
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Mar 24, 2014 01:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Someone at the top end of the magical ability / willpower scale, like Galadriel, could probably resist the ring's direct domination, and might be able to turn into sort of a counter-Sauron using it and might even "win" against by using the Ring's power, such that Ring-Galadriel would be the new Lord of Middle Earth or whatever, but any such victory would be so tainted by the ring's influence that it would be just as bad as if Sauron had won directly. Basically, look at what happened to Saruman and imagine the same thing happening to Galadriel. I've no doubt that Ring-Galadrial would be as bad as Sauron, as would Ring-Gandalf, since they explicitly state it, but what would become of Sauron himself? Because if they would ultimately, eventually, inevitably be dominated by him, then it makes no sense for Sauron to do anything except spend every effort putting a cap on Orodruin. I think that Tolkien is implying that someone like that (and the radical bit is even someone like Aragorn) would actually destroy Sauron. otherwise, why march out to attack him at the end of RotK? At least, that's how he acts. Sauron's goal is personal power, he doesn't give a whit if the world is ruled by a Sauron-like person that isn't himself.
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Mar 24, 2014 01:27
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redshirt posted:Which seems patently false to me, but he's the author. Which is yet another reason to completely ignore what an author says about their own books. Radio! posted:Aragon and the free peoples don't attack Sauron to destroy him. They know that's impossible without also destroying the Ring- the attack at the end of RotK is just an attempt to draw Sauron's attention away from Mordor to give Frodo a chance to accomplish his mission without being discovered first. Yes, of course, but why does Sauron take the bait? Why care at all if the filthy Dunedain is just going to be his newest ringwraith in a century or two. We know Sauron is patient, though I do think you could argue simple hubris and impatience led him to do it. I think he was afraid of becoming a new slave, because even though he's immortal, there are lots of things that are immortal in Middle Earth, so what's the point of living forever to wait for another sinking of whatever Numenor you've got yourself enslaved by this time.
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Mar 24, 2014 15:47
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Ungoal posted:As long as the One Ring exists, Sauron will always be there to corrupt/destroy them over time, hence the meaning that only Sauron can wield it. But if that were the case, then why would Sauron fear Aragorn and rush hastily to meet him outside Mordor? Aragorn's bluff would have been worthless unless Sauron had some fear of a powerful usurper. Put another way, Sauron is no fool, if no one could wield the One Ring without becoming his thrall, then rather than be incapable of considering the possibility that someone would destroy it, he would fear only that and just that, and all his efforts would be to prevent that, trusting that his ring would do the rest.
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Mar 25, 2014 02:19
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Radio! posted:Found a letter of Tolkien's that deals with this subject: Wow, I never saw that. That's great.
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Mar 25, 2014 15:17
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I'm surprised somebody still hasn't written LoTR or Silmarillion from the perspective of a Romantic Sauron or Morgoth. Sauron could represent the long-oppressed East and Orcs, it would be easy. Morgoth would be harder and would have to be Gothic Romantic as per Folderol.
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Mar 27, 2014 05:42
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Kassad posted:... It's me, I'm the biggest nerd in the room. Maybe that's the case in most rooms, but not this room.
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Mar 27, 2014 16:14
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I've been thinking lately that Tolkien is every bit as important to modern culture as Marx, Freud, Einstein and Ford (or whatever stand-ins you want for those) because it's so normal now for fantasy authors to create worlds rather than just write a story, and the whole idea of creating a fake but plausible language and fake culture and massive numbers of footnotes seems to have been originated by Tolkien. Does that make sense? Earlier fantasy and fairy tales don't seem to need to convince you that there's a real system at play and while I suppose sci-fi and horror like Lovecraft had been doing something like it, it doesn't seem fully realized until we get LoTR.
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Dec 9, 2014 19:38
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Didn't MERPS have the "you trip on an imaginary turtle and are confused" fumble? That alone should make it all canon.
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Mar 25, 2015 21:52
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Shibawanko posted:I.... got them all right and even knew who most of them were... Good job, Rollo.
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Jun 19, 2016 05:47
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Are we going to get a big budget silmarillion any time soon? Or better, an inverted hobbit so it's a fun hour and a half children's version?
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Aug 19, 2016 00:25
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Bongo Bill posted:Really, it's all just art inspiring further art. Yeah, the movies are fine. Unlike the Hobbit movies, which actively damage the world they inhabit and which should be suppressed for the good of mankind.
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Sep 6, 2016 04:33
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Data Graham posted:Wasn't there some discussion (earlier in the thread) about that Sam/Southron scene having been inserted at the publisher's suggestion, so that the narrative could show some empathy for a) average soldiers regardless of the side they're on, and b) non-white-Europeans in a world where blood purity and "evil races" are a thing? Pretty sure it was an Easterling and not a Southron, since there were elephants involved. Also, pretty sure the publisher at that time wouldn't have given a poo poo about blatant racism and if he had might have suggested that Tolkien not compare blacks to trolls.
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Sep 6, 2016 17:26
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The Silmarillion as a boobs-and-incest epic series on Netflix.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:03
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The mumakil were awesome. I just thought they were war elephants but never thought to make them giant elephant AT-ATs.
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Sep 7, 2016 21:51
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Data Graham posted:This thread welcomes you, elise Now tell us your thoughts on a Game of Thrones-like Silmarillion series full of elf-on-elf incest. Elfcest?
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Sep 9, 2016 19:52
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euphronius posted:Whoa mate Turambar and nienor niniel were human Don't be one of those grogs who's always complaining when the new version drifts a little from the source material.
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Sep 9, 2016 19:57
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Weird that all the LoTR is is literature and reader response has been the norm in evaluating literature but we're still so obsessed with whatever Tolkien's intent was even though he was evolving all the time. If he hadn't died, maybe he would have sent another letter saying "the Eagles were from heaven, which was Valor". What I'm saying is, who cares what Tolkien said, the ents and entwives were obviously an allegory about agriculture, which is so much hotter than incest.
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Sep 9, 2016 21:08
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What's the public domain date for the various Tolkien works? Google says 2044. Christ what a draconian law.
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Sep 12, 2016 05:47
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Murgos posted:I think you have to cut Christopher some slack. His dad told him these stories from like, age 3 onwards. 
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Sep 13, 2016 01:29
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Bongo Bill posted:I find "orcs are elves" believable Pretty sure that's canon.
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Sep 14, 2016 01:36
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euphronius posted:Silvan elves? I guess those are elves. Ok. Sure. Bendigeidfran posted:And obviously those hicks in Mirkwood eat spiders. Legolas was clearly modeled after one of the Deliverance villains.
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Sep 29, 2016 16:33
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I thought half the movies were half as cool as I should like, and I like the other half of the movies half as well as they deserve. You may find when confronted with the movies that you may agree with our decision to spare them.
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Jan 3, 2017 00:16
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You're just the other side of the lovely, jock, frat bigot coin if you insist that all homosocial bonds must be homosexual.
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Jan 31, 2017 22:34
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SHISHKABOB posted:"homosocial bond" sounds like another word for "friend" Kind of red pill to think people of different sexes can't be friends.
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Feb 1, 2017 06:19
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Can we get back to Steve Jackson and whether or not a big budget OGRE trilogy would be true to the source material?
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Feb 7, 2017 17:35
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ManSedan posted:I rented Fellowship on recommendation from the video store clerk, having never heard of Lord of the Rings beforehand. After Elrond declares, "You shall be... the Fellowship of the Ring!" I thought wow, that was a great movie! An hour and a half later, my mind had been blown wide open to Middle Earth and I was in love. The next day I went out and bought all three books, finishing them before The Two Towers came out in theaters. I reread them (along with The Hobbit) every few years, and haul my wife along to watch the super duper extended editions of the movies every few years as well. Lord of the Rings got me into playing Dungeons & Dragons, where I ended up meeting some now very close friends and bonding closer with others. I wouldn't be wrong if I said randomly renting Fellowship that September afternoon changed my life. I liked Lord of the Rings before it did anything good for anyone's life.
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Nov 17, 2017 07:08
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sassassin posted:Ancalagon was the size of a small horse. This. No dragon is breaking mountains when it died and you know that after one the storytellers just kept adding mountains. Probably just an actual horse that was particularly feisty.
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Jan 19, 2018 00:07
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