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Its motivations are left unexplained, but I imagine it would have wanted to remain hidden for fear of the Valar and their servants. Gandalf, after all, was but one of the the five Istari sent to Middle Earth, and several powerful Noldor yet remained.
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Dec 28, 2013 21:27
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SirPhoebos posted:I have a question: Waaaay back when I first read the Hobbit, I remember thinking their must of been some previous incident in Bilbo's past that set him apart in Gandalf's mind. Which is why he then recommended him to Thorin in the first place, and why everyone keeps calling him a burglar. One of the earlier books in The History of Middle-Earth (The Book of Lost Tales perhaps?) goes into this briefly. In essence, it was originally an impulse on Gandalf's part, and one which left him greatly troubled when he later thought upon it. Gandalf later came to believe that the idea was put into his mind by the Valar (most likely Manwe), or possibly even Illuvatar My memory of the passage is sketchy, however, so anyone else: feel free to correct me.
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Dec 31, 2013 03:41
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Gothmog is named as The Lord of the Nazgul's lieutenant in The Return of the King. Most commentary I've seen interprets this as one of the Nazgul, though it is not explicitly stated as such. Gothmog's fate is not known, unless he is assumed to have been one of The Nine.
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Jan 12, 2014 01:57
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Hogge Wild posted:Agreed. Children of Hurin audiobook is read by Christopher Lee I didn't know that. I may purchase my first audiobook just for this. On a sort-of related note, the lector at my church sounds a lot like Christopher Lee. Sometimes I inwardly chuckle at the thought of Saruman reading Scripture.
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Jan 13, 2014 13:54
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Nessus posted:If someone was going to do some side story material, I'd say Galadriel would be a good figure for that. Seems like she had an interesting life. Over the last few years, I've come to see Galadriel as the central figure in The history of the western part of Middle a Earth. In many ways she embodies the fall from grace of the Noldor, and their eventual submission to the Valar. I also find it interesting that her symbolic heir left in Middle Earth was Sam, the humblest of the Fellowship by far.
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Jan 30, 2014 03:59
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NikkolasKing posted:...LOTR is about humility and the underdog. Saruman being a failed tyrant is crucial to the story's tone I think.
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Feb 2, 2014 18:06
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redshirt posted:She's not a Maia. Melkor was sincerely afraid of her, and used her to gain his revenge since he could not do it on his own. She was leagues beyond the Maia. The line between Maiar and Valar seems blurry at times, and Ungoliant seems to be one of them. I think she was certainly a spirit created by Eru, and not merely a sub-creation (like the Dwarves). I don't have The Silmarillion in front of me, but I seem to recall that not all Maiar aligned with either Manwë or Melkor. Tom Bombadil is analogous, though obviously more benevolent.
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Mar 14, 2014 15:07
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euphronius posted:They are all Ainur of some kind, in my opinion. Tom, Ungoliant, Goldberry. (Everyone forgets Goldberry!) Ugh, you're right, of course! Goldberry lies forgotten indeed (by all save Tom). Tolkien's world is actually full of spirits of various desires and powers. Caradhras seemed to be filled with the malice of many (although Peter Jackson's interpretation was interesting), and the dragons are said to have been fell spirits given form by Morgoth. It may seem like a small box, but I actually think the model allows for a tremendous amount of variety. Balrog or Goldberry? Shelob or Melian? And so forth. Catsplosion posted:The maiar were brought into being to serve the valar and help shape the world yet ungoliant and tom are separate. They are a natural part of the world with great power, yet do not seem to work with or against the valar. They are separate agents, likely with their own purpose that wasn't explained. I disagree: by being "brought into the world", the Maiar are by definition "supernatural", unlike Men and Elves, who by definition are (merely) "natural." It's possible Tom, Ungoliant, and others were not Maiar (or Valar), but given Tom's description that he "came first", I prefer the interpretation that he did indeed come from outside the world. Ynglaur fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 22:08
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I believe it's stated that the Arkenstone was found, and then shaped, by the Dwarves, and was not found pre-cut or any some such. While it superficially shares may of the characteristics of the Silmarils, it doesn't seem to have the same impact on its viewers, and certainly doesn't seem to have the light of the Two Trees held within it. If it were a Silmaril, I have to believe at least some of the remaining Noldor would have gone to war to recover it long before the coming of Smaug. Additionally, the only Silmarils unaccounted for are one thrown into the Sea, west of Beleriand, and one thrown into a magma pit, in Beleriand. Suddenly "popping up" thousands of miles to the East, and across multiple mountain ranges, seems, to put it lightly, implausible. On the topic of Galadriel, or Elrond, or Gandalf seizing the ring, I think Sauron was not only afraid of destruction. I think he also feared being dominated. He played second fiddle to Morgoth for a long time, but had long since been his own master, so to speak. The Ring seems to grant the power to dominate the will and thoughts of others, and I see no reason Sauron himself would be immune to such effects. Bad enough to lose the Ring; worse, yet, to end up as the hand-slave to one of the hated Noldor, or (perhaps worse), a Man of Westernesse.
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Mar 24, 2014 14:28
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TildeATH posted:Which is yet another reason to completely ignore what an author says about their own books. I think Sauron was legitimately afraid of Aragorn wielding the Ring. While Aragon was no Elrond, much less Galadriel, still he had the blood of the Noldor in him (albeit distant) and, perhaps more importantly in Tolkien's view of magical things, he had the right to wield the Ring. It seems likely that Aragorn bested Sauron in their mental duel with the Palantir of Orthanc, so Aragorn's mental powers were formidable. Would he have been strong enough to make Sauron his slave? Who knows? But it's certainly plausible. Sauron had, in disguise, served the Númenórean kings in order to betray them and help bring about their downfall. I'm sure the thought of actually being their servant was abhorrent to a creature so accustomed to dominating the will of others.
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Mar 24, 2014 18:32
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A good friend of mine once said, "Most fantasy is about a thing, and most science fiction is about a mystery." It's quite accurate, most of the time. With regards to Galadriel the Ring-bearer (or Ring-wielder), I think she would have dominated the Nazgűl to her will. There is some small evidence that Frodo was able to do so during the attack on Weathertop. While characters in the book conjecture that the Nazgűl retreated because they did not expect resistance, and were surprised by it, I always wondered if Frodo's cry of "A Elbereth Gilthoniel!" was not in some ways a command. While he did not claim the Ring, his mere possession of it may given his words enough weight, so to speak. In addition, the Lord of the Nazgűl likely guessed that hobbits could theoretically harm him--they were not Men--and thus may have feared them, in his way.
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Mar 24, 2014 19:57
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TildeATH posted:But if that were the case, then why would Sauron fear Aragorn and rush hastily to meet him outside Mordor? Aragorn's bluff would have been worthless unless Sauron had some fear of a powerful usurper. Put another way, Sauron is no fool, if no one could wield the One Ring without becoming his thrall, then rather than be incapable of considering the possibility that someone would destroy it, he would fear only that and just that, and all his efforts would be to prevent that, trusting that his ring would do the rest. See my earlier post for my opinion on Aragorn the Ring-wielder.
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Mar 25, 2014 04:44
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That's really interesting. I always assumed the Nazgűl possessed the Nine, but I think "which he took back from them..." is correct.
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Mar 27, 2014 04:04
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Kassad posted:This makes it pretty likely that all the different "races" of Middle-Earth are in fact human beings who simply represent different ethnic and religious groups. Hobbits were just one ethnic group that was very short for some reason. Elves represent an old (prehistoric?) culture that was displaced by the "normal" Men. Orcs represent several groups that were universally reviled. And so on. In the case of the more obviously strange races (such as Ents), they personify one of the forces of nature (in this case, primeval forests). I think Tolkien was quite explicit that Elves were not Men, and merely shared some of the accidents of their condition. I seem to recall from Unfinished Tales that the reason we don't see even the Nandor or Sindar elves today is that eventually elves would fade, their spirits overcoming their physical bodies. Likewise, Orcs were maligned and misshapen Elves, and thus not Men. Hobbits are admittedly a conundrum, and one I'm not certain was ever really addressed.
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Mar 27, 2014 17:46
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They were in the movies, right next to the male orcs.
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Mar 28, 2014 17:13
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Hogge Wild posted:Are there more weapons with names than women? I'm not sure if this is trolling or not, but the answer is probably "yes" if you only count women with direct roles in the stories. That said, it's a question that implies a non-importance to women: a common criticism of Tolkien in some circles, and a misplaced one in my opinion. Wisest creature in Middle-Earth? Galadriel. Most valiant character in The Lord of the Rings? Eowyn (though you could make a decent case for Aragorn or Sam). Who held Melkor at bay? Hint: it wasn't Thingol. Who destroyed the Two Trees? Hint: it wasn't Melkor. Who did the Elves revere above all others (save Illuvatar)? Elbereth. And so on.
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Mar 28, 2014 21:50
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Levitate posted:To some extent probably...the major characters are all men, women play a secondary role in everything even if they are given more attention than just "sit there and look pretty". I personally consider Galadriel to be a major player. I think in many respects she embodies the entire story arc of the Noldor as a people. Her father was slain by Morgoth; her brother by Sauron. Yet she still had the pride to defy the Valar after The War of Wrath and stay in Middle-Earth to found her own realm.
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Mar 29, 2014 00:08
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Ahem, it's spelled "annalist", with two n's. Good catch on Galadriel's father. I always think of her as the last living heir to the Noldorian high kingship, but I suppose that rightfully belongs to Finarfin. Based on this thread, I think I'll go grab those Tolkien Professor podcasts.
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Mar 30, 2014 21:39
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Nessus posted:... I agree it's hard to have a meaningful conversation about Tolkien's mythology without having a conversation about religion. It's a testament to his writing--and perhaps the strength and resonance of his themes--that his stories are nonetheless approachable by those of many faiths.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:45
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rypakal posted:She rejects him because she can tell he's an evil shitlord. Once again you're blaming a woman for a dude turning evil. Wow. For all the hand-wringing over "lack of female characters", someone goes and provides an(other) example of a female Tolkien protagonist showing greater wisdom than her male counterparts, exercising her free will in opposition to the will of a male, and you respond with this? Please tell me you're trolling. Regarding treechat, what would Sam do? He'd probably make some nice furniture out of it and give it to his cousins or something, and then he'd plant another tree. They should plant another tree there.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:51
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rypakal posted:The person I was replying to said Melkor did bad things because Varda rejected him. I was applauding her ability to read Melkor's jerkface intentions and disgusted by even the notion that his actions would be laid at her feet. My apologies for misunderstanding, then (and for sounding so snarky).
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Jul 31, 2014 20:41
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Re: narrator's voice, I wrote an essay years ago on the topic. Other than the hobbits, there are only a handful of instances in LotR where we see the mind of a character. There's a fox in FotR , Legolas in TTT, and one other I can't recall at the moment. (Gandalf, perhaps?)
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Aug 6, 2014 23:20
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euphronius posted:We are in Sauron's head for a brief moment. I think I know the section you meant. I always wondered if it was because Frodo was in Sauron's thoughts, so to speak. Sauron spoke to Pippin directly via the Palantír, and several other times characters seem to communicate with their thoughts (e.g. Frodo hearing Gandalf on Amon Hen). Now I need to go re-read that chapter. Edit: VVV I wasn't clear. I was using the Palantír as an example of the mental communications. I understand the "inside Sauron's head" part is at Mount Doom. Ynglaur fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Aug 15, 2014 |
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Aug 15, 2014 03:21
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rypakal posted:Tolkien wrote more scenes with believable and sympathetic female characters than Robert Jordan. It would be hard to write less than zero. (Disclaimer: I never finished the series. I lost interest after the thousanth repeated scene in Book 6 or 7 or whatever.)
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Aug 19, 2014 22:41
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Those are pretty cool. It's interesting that they visually show all of the non-mortals with halos. I find this rather appropriate, all things considered.
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Sep 8, 2014 08:33
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We can start a new thread when the number of posts equals the number of years between the crowning of Elessar and the Two Trees being killed.
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Oct 30, 2014 21:36
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I think many modern fantasy writers don't really understand fear. Tolkien understood very well that the most horrible things are beyond words, and words perhaps ought not be given to them. In the book we barely see the cave troll, and its more terrifying because of it. I enjoy Glen Cook for similar reasons: he describes only what is necessary to convey the story and some emotion, and leaves his readers to find their own specifics.
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Nov 14, 2014 17:24
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Robert E. Howard created his own world as well, though like Tolkien he stated that it was our world, but just very long ago. Tolkien was not the first, but he was arguably the most thorough, and the most convincing.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:23
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Hogge Wild posted:The Hobbit is a short children's book so it won't be a chore, but The Fellowhip could be. Try Hobbit and if you don't like it, skip it, and if you don't like Fellowship, jump forward until you find something interesting. Many people think that the Shire part is really boring. YMMV, of course. The first part of The Fellowship of the Ring--excepting two chapters--remains my favorite part, even after many years.
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Dec 12, 2014 15:00
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concerned mom posted:Yeah same here, especially the parts where Frodo and Sam are travelling from the Shire and before they meet up with Merry and Pippin. In the book Frodo, Sam, and Pippin travel together.
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Dec 12, 2014 15:22
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Data Graham posted:Read Bored of the Rings first. The scene at the ford remains one of my favorite funny scenes of all time. Single wayfarers: 1 farthing Double-axled haywains: 2 farthings Black Riders: 40 gold pieces
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Dec 12, 2014 16:33
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I will happily spoiler-tag anything remotely significant in this thread in return for a trip report on your first-time read. I hope you enjoy it!
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Dec 15, 2014 15:19
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It may be worth keeping in mind that Tolkien distinguished between "magic" and "sorcery". The former was just another way the world worked, and could be the manifestation of Powers in the world (i.e. the Valar). A miracle, as someone one said, is God throwing a new ball onto the billiard table. Once there, it obeys all the laws of Nature. Magic is like this. Sorcery, on the other hand, deals with compelling the free will of another, especially the dead. The Paths of the Dead always troubled me, for this reason: Aragorn certainly compels the spirits to do his will. That said, it was Isildur who originally cursed them, and Aragorn only compelled them with the promise of lifting the curse, which he did. I think it's interesting that Saruman's explosion at Helm's Deep is probably closer to "magic" than to "sorcery", but the characters refer to it as the latter.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:31
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After reading The Silmarillion, you start to realize what a family affair the whole War of the Ring was. Sauron killed Galadriel's brother while he was a prisoner, for example. Her father was slain by Sauron's master, Morgoth. Sauron later destroyed Hollin, which Galadriel had established in pale memory of Doriath after Beleriand sank into the ocean. Lothlorien was kind of "take 3" for Galadriel. Galadriel is also the heir to the high kingship of the Noldor. She could have been High Queen, but apparently preferred--or was bound to--patriarchy. Celeborn was only her consort. That means Galadriel's male heir would be the next in line for the Noldorian High Kingship. She had one daughter, who married Elrond. Good so far. Now things get a little confusing: Arwen had two brothers, but it's unclear to me if she was older than them. If she was older, then the High Kingship should, I think, go to Arwen's oldest male heir, who unfortunately is a Man. Writing this, I now wonder: should one of Elrond's sons been High King of the Noldor?
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Jan 6, 2015 23:33
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You're right, of course: Fingolfin was Galadriel's uncle. The best writers, imo, not only tell a good tale, but also have depth.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:23
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pixelbaron posted:Feanor asked three times for a single strand of her hair. I never picked up on this. Nice.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:06
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mornhaven posted:Is there a reason why Dwalin's beard in The Hobbit is blue? Young dwarves are punks. An unsavory lot, I tell you.
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Jan 22, 2015 03:34
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I felt the same way about Galadriel's rejection of the Ring in the movie. If you strip out the special effects, Cate Blanchet delivered a fantastic piece of acting, with very challenging dialogue. Instead we get a bunch of garbled effects that overpower the acting entirely. It was a real shame, as it could have been one of the finest moments in the first movie. Contrast with the later scene with Aragorn and Boromir on the slopes of Amon Hen, which had no effects and focused on the actors. I thought that scene was particularly well done. Spoilered because I know we have at least one first-reader in the thread at the moment.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:27
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UoI posted:That would have been amazing, thank you. There's no accounting for (bad) taste. 
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Mar 12, 2015 22:21
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Whenever the Steven Erickson / Malazan thread gets uppity we should remind them that we have Space Spiders.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:35
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