Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

End Of Worlds posted:

The fact that the subservient laborer who calls Frodo his Master might be brown does not actually advance the cause of Tolkien Not Being A Racist, dude

This is an American misinterpretation. Tolkein was British (English) and in Britain servants were (almost exclusively) white. The earlier point about peasants and labourers being darker due to exposure to sun and that tans were class signifiers is completely correct and readers of Tolkein's generation would have understood that (although by the time LOTR was published that had begun to change). That said, Sam's family looking slightly different from the Bagginses is a marker of class distinction through years genetic separation caused by classes not intermarrying. I think understanding Tolkein is matter of realising that there are racial difference between races (species?) and class differences within races. So I think there is a racial underpinning but class differentiation also and the Sam/Frodo difference is class-based.

It is hard to argue against Middle Earth's races not determining inherent character traits. You get diversity but that is seen as aberration from a norm (Frodo and Bilbo being adventurous when hobbits are mainly timid and homeloving, etc), be it genetically or environmentally determined.

It is kind of fascinating to watch people who absolutely love LOTR trying to explain away the world view of Tolkein, which was in part racially-coloured, when it is definitely there. These fans are experiencing cognitive dissonance: I really love LOTR; what is plainly visible in the books and films is not actually there because I could never love any work of fiction that was racially/politically questionable. Personally, I think it is possible to love something and experience the emotional truth and narrative compulsion of it without agreeing with the religious/intellectual/political/scientific premise. But that doesn't mean I would falsely represent that story/work of art.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2014 12:29

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 13:11

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Catsplosion posted:

Isn't the whole Gimli and Legolas relationship about not hating people because of their race and the history they share? How do people miss that?

And did you miss that part about it being a celebrated friendship because it was a rare example of individuals from races with mutual animosity overcoming their natures and civilisations to combine on a common enterprise? It is perfectly possible to suggest individuals should overcome such division while at the same time maintaining explicitly and often that such divisions are real and do exist and do determine the course of history.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2014 13:33

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Wasn't part of Saruman's arms program (for want of a better expression) the development of gunpowder? Or is the memory of the second LOTR film distorting my memory of the book?

# ¿ Dec 21, 2014 17:05

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

^ Yes, of course. I forgot about Gandalf's famous fireworks....

E: Did the dwarves of Moria also have explosives. All that stuff about delving too deeply and unearthing the Balrog etc - did some of that come about through gunpowder or just greed?

Josef K. Sourdust fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Dec 21, 2014

# ¿ Dec 21, 2014 18:20

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

So if Mordor was a hellish ashy plain, what were the orcs eating for food? (You can't say each other.) What's the economy and infrastructure of an army-state in a wasteland without vegetation? You're not going to tell me they go out raiding local farms to feed the vast armies of darkness, are you?

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 00:02

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

euphronius posted:

I am not going to go too far down this road but what we know of Orcs is filtered through rabid Orc racists and should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Are you saying that the Red Book of Westmarch is not a reliable primary source? I think we should be told...

Hmm, ok, I wasn't particularly conversant on S. Mordor. Presumably farmed by men?

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 00:37

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

BatteredFeltFedora posted:

Yeah, I doubt Aragorn would have given that land to Orcs.

Hence a program of forced migration? Hmmm, tell us more about this Defender of the West.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 10:49

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

I know LOTR's draft has been published in annotated form in a series of volumes but has there ever been a move to publish the final draft as a single volume? Also, can anyone give a rough comparison of word length between draft and published version?

# ¿ Jan 8, 2015 15:24

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

These are one-vol. editions of the text as originally published (and very nice ones too!) but I was asking about the draft, which I think C Tolkein published split up in different books, with notes etc. I wondered if the original draft of LOTR had been published as per the original manuscript (as I think the draft has more material than the final version).

E: Sorry if my question was a bit fuzzy!

# ¿ Jan 8, 2015 17:22

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Aha! Thanks for enlightening me. I read a summary and it made it seem there was a "clean full draft" but yes, it makes complete sense that the original manuscript is a mass of revisions, false starts, cuts etc.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2015 18:46

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

NovemberMike posted:

An important thing to remember is that most historical countries have been pretty heavily populated. Not as much as in the modern world, but if you got on a road and walked for five miles in either direction you'd find a town. Middle Earth is an abandoned world by comparison.

Guessing two reasons for that. First, presumably JRRT didn't want to elaborate a whole economic model as it would have been a huge amount of work and his interest was in a) the tale and b) the languages. Second, TH and LOTR are essentially wilderness adventures. Relatively little time is spent in villages and I don't think there are very large cities in the whole of ME. (Is there any comment on the size of the biggest cities and which are they?) JRRT was enamoured with a rural/agrarian/medieval past and cities like Rome, Paris and Cologne were European rather than British. London didn't feature as a large city until well after the medieval period so in British minds, that period is inextricably viewed as low population density, villages and citadels rather than cities. I agree that ME does seem a lot less populated than pre-Black Death (and even post-BD) England was but describing a network of villages and trade routes would have been a huge job and not really to his purpose. What do you think?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2015 01:36

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

It is 70 years in the UK. The US (sorry: Disney lobbyists) strongarmed the EU into changing copyright expiry.

With JRRT it isn't straightforward. I think it would be 70 years after death for everything published in his lifetime (i.e. 2043). However, what has been published since his death by the estate is either copyrighted as publication date + 70 years or (more likely) copyright C Tolkien: so his lifetime + 70 years. ME is JRRT Estate intellectual copyright so you cannot use characters, places, languages without permission of the estate. I mean - you can't publish it for profit and the estate has the right to take down any publicly distributed material using ME whether it is for profit or not - but essentially print publication and/or profit making are the red flags that will bring in the lawyers.

I'm not an expert but that's what I think.

NB: The British crown has copyright in perpetuity to the King James Bible, so be careful with your biblical fanfic. Muslims are pretty cool with you adapting the Koran though.

Josef K. Sourdust fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Jan 19, 2015

# ¿ Jan 19, 2015 11:03

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

You nerds posted:

Anyone care to settle the size dispute of the Peter Jackson?

�probably the most arguable and debatable question in all of Tolkiana and I've gone back and forth. Right now I think the Peter Jackson himself was man-sized.

In the versions of the fall of Gondolin, where there are like 100s of Peter Jacksons, they are described as being like twice as big as an elf.

Close. You've got the size right but surprisingly enough it's not the wings that Peter Jacksons don't have. What they lack is a body, they are otherwise completely and utterly wing.

The shadow of the Moria Peter Jackson is poeticlly described as wings. thats it. In no other description of Peter Jacksons do they have wings.

Peter Jacksons are a man and a half. If you look carefully at the scene in fellowship it's actually pretty much a man and a half tall. I mean, it's hunched over but that's how they always are so its ok.

Here's the thing: Peter Jacksons are huge and scary. If one of them that lives in a cave decides he wants to have wings, who is gonna tell him he can't? You? That's what I thought.

Content: anyone care to tell me why these films haven't been slapped with IP copyright injunctions? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qINwCRM8acM

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 21:37

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

The Minas Tirith kickstarter has raised �13,000. I'll look in the gap in my sofa. I am sure I can find 50p.

What's the view of BBC's LOTR?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_(1981_radio_series)

It was 26 x 30 min episodes. it was released on cassette and CD. You won't find the episodes on YouTube but the soundtrack does appear frequently. I am sure British goons itt will remember it. Views?

# ¿ Aug 15, 2015 20:27

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Frankly, I am really disappointed by all of you. :colbert:

How could you let the Minas Tirith kickstarter fail? Kickstarters can succeed: just look at ISIS's kickstarter for Mordor.

# ¿ Aug 25, 2015 08:33

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Isengard was supposedly an outpost of Gondor of which Saruman was custodian - and only later de facto ruler/owner - so how come before his conversion to evil/ambition Orthanc was pretty much Tower of Evil (registered trademark) in the film? To be faithful, Isengard/Orthanc would be Gondorian architecture and only partially and belatedly converted by Saruman in the course of a few months but I guess Tower of Evil was more visually distinct for the film.

Question: What were the One Ring's powers? How exactly would the Ring have turned the course of the war? Power 1. Invisibility for wearer. 2. Immortality for wearer/bearer. 3. Supposedly dominion over the other rings of power. But what does that mean? Gollum/Bilbo/Frodo never commanded the Nazgul or the other ring bearers. Power 4...erm...?

I get that Sauron is the only Lord of the Rings so what does the bearer get besides powers 1 and 2? Surely it is only the power to destroy Sauron via destruction of the ring. So what is all this "if I took the ring to Gondor we would use this mighty weapon to...." well, what exactly?

Josef K. Sourdust fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Dec 30, 2015

# ¿ Dec 30, 2015 23:20

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Ynglaur posted:

Potatoes are implied in The Children of H�rin as well, though never named.

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth Legendarium: Potatoes Implied

# ¿ Jan 14, 2016 12:15

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Those of you yearning for rumbling rolling syllables of grandeur uttered by McKellen can listen to him read a new translation of the Aeneid:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b073r20q/episodes/guide

You can listen only for the next week before they go offline.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2016 10:55

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Would it have been a mistake to have Frodo and Sam die on Mount Doom? Apart from making the LotR sadder, would it thematically or in terms of morality diminished the story?

# ¿ Sep 6, 2016 11:03

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Has anyone done an estimation of the size of ME based on the traveling times in LotR extrapolated from Tolkein's maps? I always get the impression that ME is pretty small. Can anyone give an estimate of distances? Angland to Ormal can't be greater than 1,000 miles. That sounds a fair size but isn't the idea that ME is the entire landmass of the world?

http://aidanmoher.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/A_Map_of_Middle-earth_and_the_Undying_Lands_color.jpeg

# ¿ Sep 8, 2016 23:13

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

End Of Worlds posted:

ME is just Europe, man. The other continents still exist.

Oh, ok. I guess I haven't read enough non-LotR Tolkein to get that.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2016 23:19

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Ok. So Shire to Mount Doom is West Midlands to Sicily. That is about what I figured. Thanks.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2016 23:50

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Please give me the tl;dr version of Christopher T.'s objections to the films.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2016 22:32

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

For better or worse, I can't picture the book characters as different to the film cast now.The barrow wights are my favourite part of FotR and I'm kind of glad they didn't appear in the film so I have my imaginative versions in my memory.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2016 13:27

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Shiretalk: the only reason the Shire was safe was because of centuries of protection by the Rangers. It's not that it is a backwater with no evil, its safety is an artificial creation.

Also it is kind of a post-apocalyptic wasteland: it's mentioned a few times that they used to have more machines and stuff but now all that is in a special museum.

All I'm saying is that these shirefolk need to pay their way. Why are we protecting them for nothing? Some people are saying the alliance is obsolete. I don't know. We may have an alliance but what are they doing for us? It could be the worst military alliance in history. These guys are all short pacifists with hairy feet. When did they ever fight for us?

# ¿ Dec 4, 2016 17:42

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

sassassin posted:

They both have more dialogue than any female character.

On the other hand Shelob is a strong female character :colbert:

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:29

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Hang on. If Sauron was wearing the ring then he should have been invisible. So how did Isildur see him to cut the ring from his hand? What am I missing?

# ¿ Jan 28, 2017 00:52

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

hmmm.... The ring of plot convenience methinks. Is this info coming from JRRT or from Middle Earth Expanded Universe (TM)?

# ¿ Jan 28, 2017 10:46

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

Was there any homosexual element to Nordic/Viking societies - aside from homosocial bonding - or was that just a Mediterrenean culture thing?

# ¿ Jan 31, 2017 13:12

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

VanSandman posted:

I mean I'm sure Vikings were occasionally gay because literally every culture everywhere has gays in it, it's part of the human condition.

Yes, I'm sure there was gay love/sex, I mean was there any cultural manifestations of that? If you look at Roman/Greek history you can find a lot of literature and art dealing with the subject. I've never seen any northern images/stories similar.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2017 14:12

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 13:11

Josef K. Sourdust: Jul 16, 2014; "To be quite frank, Platinum sucks at making games. Vanquish was terrible and Metal Gear Rising: Revengance was so boring it put me to sleep."

The 13-hour BBC radio adaptation of LoTR is on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRTkZ7QVEas

Catch while you can. If you haven't heard it before it is well worth hearing.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2017 12:30

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way