|
Three-Phase posted:This is really not something I expected from the Obama administration. Everyone keeps saying this every time some poo poo like this is passed. Obama has signed more liberty restricting bills than GWB ever did. "but but but he's black and liberal durrr"
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:28 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2013 10:29 |
|
|
DFu4ever posted:While I agree that we should be out of the Middle East and Afghanistan, I don't see a problem with this. Probably because I'm not as paranoid about it being misused as most of you seem to be. I also don't agree with an American who actively assists lethal enemies in the field being granted immunity to lethal force solely because he is an American. That is pretty absurd. What about his sixteen-year old son?
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:28 |
|
|
^^^ Tough poo poo, I guess. Maybe next time he'll be smart enough not to have a terrorist dad. ^^^DFu4ever posted:While I agree that we should be out of the Middle East and Afghanistan, I don't see a problem with this. Probably because I'm not as paranoid about it being misused as most of you seem to be. I also don't agree with an American who actively assists lethal enemies in the field being granted immunity to lethal force solely because he is an American. That is pretty absurd. The Constitution guarantees the right to a fair trial to every American citizen. If you start picking and choosing who gets those rights, we might as well not even have the Constitution. Also, the entire point of the trial is to verify if the claims of being a terrorist are actually true. If you don't even take the time to verify it, you're going to start killing innocent people. You're nuts if you think that won't be abused to remove any inconvenient "enemies" of the state. The Bible fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 03:32 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:29 |
|
|
I bet the guys still in G-Bay are wondering when the drone strikes will hit them and get them out of hell. So when do we get the Xenomorph eggs, guys? We're clearly almost at the Weyland-Yutani phase of who owns and does what without any form of penalty. I want some loving chestbursters!
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:30 |
|
|
How do you prove someone is a terrorist without holding a trial?
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:32 |
|
|
Stoic Commie posted:Everyone keeps saying this every time some poo poo like this is passed. Obama has signed more liberty restricting bills than GWB ever did. "but but but he's black and liberal durrr" Don't worry. In his second term he'll show those Republicans that he's a bona fide socialist  FogHelmut posted:How do you prove someone is a terrorist without holding a trial? That sounds like terrorist talk to me.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:34 |
|
|
FogHelmut posted:How do you prove someone is a terrorist without holding a trial? Over 18 and in a place you recently defined as a combat zone. Or under 18 and near someone over 18 and in a combat zone. Not white.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:36 |
|
|
The Bible posted:The Constitution guarantees the right to a fair trial to every American citizen. If you start picking and choosing who gets those rights, we might as well not even have the Constitution. You would pick and choose based on the situation at hand. Just for conversation's sake, if the dude is handing mortars to some other guy who is shelling a weakened American position, and you have a chance to take out the mortar position itself with a rocket then you take it out with a rocket. You don't make an exception for some guy if other lives are at risk.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:36 |
|
|
DFu4ever posted:You would pick and choose based on the situation at hand. Just for conversation's sake, if the dude is handing mortars to some other guy who is shelling a weakened American position, and you have a chance to take out the mortar position itself with a rocket then you take it out with a rocket. You don't make an exception for some guy if other lives are at risk. And if you're driving to breakfast with your son? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi#Death Because this is exactly what this is going to be supporting. Just outright targeting and killing of suspected terrorists on sight, at any distance from a battlefield. No trial, no evidence, no charges, no means of appeal, just kill-on-sight because someone declared them to be a terrorist. And he wasn't the only one to die in that attack. His son was killed, as was another American citizen who wasn't even on Obama's hitlist, and two other associates of his; pretty much everyone that was with him in the van. That's some Los Zetas style poo poo right there, and we absolutely should not tolerate it from our leaders or military. And I'm not defending Aulaqi here. He was a bad dude, but we didn't like him precisely because he conspired to kill people. When we do the exact same poo poo, we don't come out any cleaner than he does. Also, his son did not deserve to be collateral damage, and his death is the most damning condemnation in this entire argument. Innocent people will die as a result of poo poo like this. The Bible fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 03:54 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:42 |
|
|
DFu4ever posted:You would pick and choose based on the situation at hand. Just for conversation's sake, if the dude is handing mortars to some other guy who is shelling a weakened American position, and you have a chance to take out the mortar position itself with a rocket then you take it out with a rocket. You don't make an exception for some guy if other lives are at risk. And what happens when they choose wrong? What happens when the situation isn't so clear? What happens when they entirely misinterpret information? It's easy to suggest scenarios where everything makes sense and it seems obvious what should be done, but this isn't how the real world works.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:46 |
|
|
gently caress ups and terrible decisions are harsh realities of war. That aspect is never going to change regardless of policy. The entire indiscriminate way the drone program seems to be run is terrible.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:52 |
|
|
The Bible posted:Well, it seems they can, actually. And have done so several times. See: Collateral Murder video, Anwar al-Aulaqi Great news. Hopefully he was an only child and Anwar's line thus ends.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:54 |
|
|
The Bible posted:
It won't be, but it will sure as poo poo lead to innocent people dying who have been misidentified as being a terrorist, misidentified as someone else who has been identified as being a terrorist, or just unfortunate enough to be around one of those two. Well it already has, and it will continue to do so.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:55 |
|
|
nimh posted:Great news. Hopefully he was an only child and Anwar's line thus ends. You don't want those terrorist genes passing down the line right?
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:57 |
|
|
nimh posted:Great news. Hopefully he was an only child and Anwar's line thus ends. This is one of the most hilariously barbaric things I've ever read. Lumberjack Bonanza fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 04:08 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 03:59 |
|
|
Just FYI, any forums user posting in this thread with the name _____ CURES _____, is a poster from Goons in Platoons who is probably posting light-hearted trolls (at least for now) and their posts should be taken for what they are. And as far as this drone-strike development goes, it strikes me as yet another instance of authority creep. I mean, Obama didn't end the insanity of the Patriot Act, why would he shy away from this sort of thing.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:00 |
|
|
DFu4ever posted:gently caress ups and terrible decisions are harsh realities of war. That aspect is never going to change regardless of policy. So the most logical thing to do is change policy so that we can just call someone a terrorist and then kill them. Instead of not being "at war" indefinitely for no reason. Oh wait that would cut profits for the military-industrial complex. gnarlyhotep fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 04:07 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:03 |
|
|
I'm against the war, I think it's pointless. But I don't particularly care any differently at all that a small number of fighters/operatives that are getting blown up on the other side might hold American citizenship. It really makes no difference to me at all. I give a drat when innocent civilians get blown up in this war, I don't give a drat if Al-Qaeda's #4 or whatever is an American citizen and gets blown up. It's not execution, it's not assassination, it's blowing people up on the other side of the world as part of a slow-burning conflict that's been going for 10+ years, and maybe if people stopped pretending this sort of thing wasn't happening in a war context, it would really sink in that we've been in this pointless slow-burn war for 10+ years and maybe it's about time the goddamn thing was ended.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:05 |
|
|
nimh posted:Great news. Hopefully he was an only child and Anwar's line thus ends. And you never know, he could have been a terrorist too! In fact, let's kill all the Americans just to be safe.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:06 |
|
|
The Bible posted:Over 18 and in a place you recently defined as a combat zone. Or under 18 and near someone over 18 and in a combat zone. Not white. Not that I really disagree with you, but Arabs (not whatever multitude of ethnicities are in Afghanistan) are classified as white by the US Census and by extension the federal government. Always thought that the double standard was kind of strange, god drat brown people!!
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:06 |
|
|
Globo-Corp posted:Just FYI, any forums user posting in this thread with the name _____ CURES _____, is a poster from Goons in Platoons who is probably posting light-hearted trolls (at least for now) and their posts should be taken for what they are. Well I'm glad SOMEBODY is making light-hearted fun of government-endorsed murder. About loving time. People need to shut the gently caress up about being killed so weapons companies can make a profit. I mean gently caress.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:06 |
|
|
nimh posted:Great news. Hopefully he was an only child and Anwar's line thus ends. There are no words to describe how deplorable this view is. The Good Guys, ladies and gentlemen. Terrorists are bad because they kill people, so let's kill anyone who might be a terrorist. VVV It's McCarthyism all over again. It's terrifying how few people are able to see this. VVV The Bible fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 04:12 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:08 |
|
|
Globo-Corp posted:And as far as this drone-strike development goes, it strikes me as yet another instance of authority creep. I mean, Obama didn't end the insanity of the Patriot Act, why would he shy away from this sort of thing. Oh, I bet it will strike you, you terrorist! This accusation might scare us all shitless later in our lifetimes.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:10 |
|
|
Yeah, I'm ok with this. American citizenship shouldn't be some blanket protection for you if you're out being a terrorist.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:11 |
|
|
All I know is we got us a massive military machine going on here and I'll be GOD DAMNED if I can't use it to kill SOMEBODY!
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:12 |
|
|
First step towards ending american exceptionalism 
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:13 |
|
|
Saint Celestine posted:Yeah, I'm ok with this. American citizenship shouldn't be some blanket protection for you if you're out being a terrorist. Without Due Process, how do you prove the terrorism accusations are true? Also, are you really for throwing out that Constitutional protection? They're called inalienable rights for a reason, you know.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:13 |
|
|
The Bible posted:Without Due Process, how do you prove the terrorism accusations are true? Also, are you really for throwing out that Constitutional protection? They're called inalienable rights for a reason, you know. Drone footage.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:16 |
|
|
HATE CURES TRANNYS posted:Drone footage. I didn't think of that. Video can't be edited or modified, it's perfect.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:17 |
|
|
Tornado Lazers posted:First step towards ending american exceptionalism You are so naive. All real patriots know America is the best country on earth and the only one worth killing anyone we feel like for. e: because seriously, America is under terrorist attack EVERY DAY I mean look at all the mass shootings! All of them were terrorists trying to take away our guns and freedom (in that order) Clearly this nation is under terrorist threat every second of every day gnarlyhotep fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 04:20 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:17 |
|
|
gnarlyhotep posted:You are so naive. All real patriots know America is the best country on earth and the only one worth killing anyone we feel like for. Thank you. It's not ok for them to kill or threaten us, but our drones buzzing around and picking them off is just fine, and if they have a problem with it, they can just step outside.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:22 |
|
|
The price of vigilance is preemptively targeting suspicious American citizens. I don't know how much more plainly I can put it.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:23 |
|
|
The Bible posted:Thank you. It's not ok for them to kill or threaten us, but our drones buzzing around and picking them off is just fine, and if they have a problem with it, they can just step outside. That doesn't mean due process goes out the window. We should hold these drones accountable for their actions!
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:23 |
|
|
Tornado Lazers posted:That doesn't mean due process goes out the window. We should hold these drones accountable for their actions! A military inquiry found that the drones had simply misfired due to faulty intel and are not responsible for any wrongdoing.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:25 |
|
|
The Bible posted:A military inquiry found that the drones had simply misfired due to faulty intel and are not responsible for any wrongdoing. They could have built me to love, but nooooo!
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:28 |
|
|
Roumba posted:They could have built me to love, but nooooo! Instead, all drones are built with petulance.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:30 |
|
|
Don't rock the boat there are alligators. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...terest/fcY9Vhv0
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:36 |
|
|
I feel like this is something of a non-issue if they're going to apply it as narrowly as they are in that memo. Any US Citizen working as a senior member of Al-Qaeda could easily be tried in absentia for treason and stripped of their citizenship, which would make them fair game for drone strikes anyway; and presumably, if they were working as a senior member of Al-Qaeda, the evidence wouldn't be difficult to produce. It doesn't make me feel too great that they're trying to bypass the legal system, but I suppose they would argue (and not without cause) that a trial would take significant time and could potentially allow opportunities to slip by. Obama is clearly treating this like a war instead of a large-scale police action, and his successes thus far would seem to suggest that the approach has some merit.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:37 |
|
|
When the Soviet Union collapsed, I was pretty depressed. There was no more Big Bad Guy to fight. All our big weapons and cutting edge killing poo poo was not needed anymore. But then the oil-loving Terrorists stepped up to fill the gap and man that felt good. Like I still could contribute something. So yeah, I may not know who the Terrorists are, but I know they're not ME, so game on bitches.
gnarlyhotep fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 04:51 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:48 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2013 10:29 |
|
|
The government has never really had any qualms about killing US citizens. The police do it pretty much every day.
|
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 04:49 |
|
