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Locobono posted:I think you're using "due process" when you should really be using "rules of engagement", seeing as the targeted individuals are members of a paramilitary organization that has racked up a significant body count. How many people does a group have to murder before it becomes a legitimate target of warfare? Surely less than the several thousand Al-Quaeda has. An American citizen who went to Germany in 1941 to take up arms to defend the Reich wouldn't get the same consideration, would you mourn his lack of "due process"? The issue is that the mandate is for anyone ASSOCIATED with a terrorist organization. ASSOCIATED is not defined and is a very open, general term. Does your name begin with "A?" WELP sorry you're associated with Al-Qaeda. Have you ever been to the middle east? Uh-oh, that is Al-Qaeda's favorite place, you terrist associator!!
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 18:44 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 01:16 |
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ZLogic posted:Your arguments hold about as much water as the nut job with a megaphone that yells at passing cars about how sinful they are. Yes I clearly don't understand your ranting because I'm too dumb, not because your theories are insane and you refuse to explain them. That we could all be as clairvoyant as you, and as skilled at capitalizing random words
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 18:45 |
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Locobono posted:Yes I clearly don't understand your ranting because I'm too dumb, not because your theories are insane and you refuse to explain them. That we could all be as clairvoyant as you, and as skilled at capitalizing random words (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 18:47 |
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ZLogic posted:The issue is that the mandate is for anyone ASSOCIATED with a terrorist organization. ASSOCIATED is not defined and is a very open, general term. The guy openly admitted his involvement, on video tape no less, repeatedly over a period of years. I'm don't think the CIA had to roll out their hottest redheaded analyst to connect the dots on this one, bub
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 18:49 |
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Locobono posted:The guy openly admitted his involvement, on video tape no less, repeatedly over a period of years. I'm don't think the CIA had to roll out their hottest redheaded analyst to connect the dots on this one, bub Yes, there was a bad guy at some point so that justifies forfeiture of all freedom and privacy! This seems to be the recurring theme in your posts, so I'll leave you to make them without responses, since that's what they deserve.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 18:53 |
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Locobono posted:I think you're using "due process" when you should really be using "rules of engagement", seeing as the targeted individuals are possibly suspected of maybe being terrorists, perhaps on no more than the whim of a senior official, although there's no way to tell since there's never been a trial and anyone asking to see the evidence is told to gently caress off. How many people does a group have to murder before it becomes a legitimate target of warfare? Surely less than the several thousand Al-Quaeda has. An American citizen who went to Germany in 1941 to take up arms to defend the Reich wouldn't get the same consideration, would you mourn his lack of "due process"? Fixed that for you. See the problem now?
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 18:56 |
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Blue spy posted:Who is putting it into the heads of US policy makers that these kinds of acts are a good idea? Who benefits from this within our our bureaucracy? Everyone who deals with terrorism, like the CIA and all the agencies involved with them. I can't tell if its because they are power grabbing shitheads or if they have come to believe that we need to kill everyone we proscribe because their environment constantly echoes that goal, but either way its poo poo. They probably actually believe we can just kill our way out of trouble. It is almost a mirror of the red scare institutional insanity with Hoover dreaming up country wide union revolutions and bombings on May Day so that they could spy on everyone with plans to intern mass groups of Americans to stop the imminent threat of communist revolution. Same old 'boogy boogy bad men, you want me to be able to protect you right!??'
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 18:59 |
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Why isn't anyone upset that he can order attacks on human beings without any kind of due process? Seems like people in the US are hung up on the fact that its suddenly a big deal if an AMERICAN can be killed without any proper trial.Does anyone give a poo poo if it's a foreigner or an 18+ looking dude who was just passing by and therefore meets the criteria of "combatant"?
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:05 |
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Mugsbaloney posted:Why isn't anyone upset that he can order attacks on human beings without any kind of due process? Seems like people in the US are hung up on the fact that its suddenly a big deal if an AMERICAN can be killed without any proper trial.Does anyone give a poo poo if it's a foreigner or an 18+ looking dude who was just passing by and therefore meets the criteria of "combatant"? Great question! I don't know, but it seems that an erosion of ethics/philosophy/morality is a necessary prerequisite to the erosion of freedom/privacy/life. ZLogic fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 19:11 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:08 |
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Mugsbaloney posted:Why isn't anyone upset that he can order attacks on human beings without any kind of due process?
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:21 |
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sentientcarbon posted:What? Your stalwart defender against the expansion and abuse of executive branch power is the Republican party? You mean the guys behind the patriot act, toture, guantanamo, etc? You're...you're joking, right? I'll admit I'm having a hard time telling who is serious in this thread. As long as there's a Democrat in office, I'm absolutely serious, yes. If we elect a Republican next time around our stalwart defenders will be the Democratic party instead. Our government ceased acting as a unified body quite some time ago - at this point the majority of each party will support or attack major issues simply based on faction lines. Hence why our last two Congresses have been some of the least productive in the last half century, involving both Democrats AND Republicans voting against or for issues that logically they should've been enthusiastically supporting if they were actually representing their constituents. It's not a good form of checks and balances, but it works. If we ever see a major swing towards one side or the other again it will collapse, then I'll start worrying. Until then most of our government spends a great deal of their time slavering in anticipation of pouncing on, publicizing, and dramatizing the next Bad Thing the other side does. Beyond that, it's somewhat silly of me to be an optimist these days, but I actually have some faith that someone given power won't immediately use it to murder babies, enslave the Undesireables, and turn America into a concentration camp. As far as the justification thing, due process is suspended for treason. Being a major leader of a terrorist organization hostile to the United States is, in fact, treasonous.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:21 |
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Flarestar posted:I actually have some faith that someone given power won't immediately use it to murder babies, enslave the Undesireables, and turn America into a concentration camp. Bolded for appropriate emphasis. I don't care how long it takes them to turn America into a concentration camp, I prefer an America that isn't retarded and evil.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:27 |
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I don't really have a problem with this at all. Terrorists are enemy combatants and should be wiped off the face of the planet.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:28 |
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Eggs posted:I don't really have a problem with this at all. Terrorists are enemy combatants and should be wiped off the face of the planet. Yeah!!! MERICA, FUK YAH!!! Especially if those terrorists are citizens in the homeland that haven't had a trial (like you). They should be wiped off the face of the planet!
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:31 |
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Eggs posted:I don't really have a problem with this at all. Terrorists are enemy combatants and should be wiped off the face of the planet. So who's a terrorist then? What criteria are you using to delineate this designation? What scrutiny is there regarding designating someone under this heading? At the moment, its whoever the government says is a terrorist. There's clearly no problem with that whatsoever.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:33 |
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UberJew posted:Was killed in a second attack in fact, not even "just" collateral damage. The right to violate the rights of the people belongs to the people.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:38 |
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olylifter posted:So who's a terrorist then? What criteria are you using to delineate this designation? What scrutiny is there regarding designating someone under this heading? Someone aiding terrorist organizations. There are several US intelligence agencies that handle the criteria along with dozens of other agencies worldwide that we collaborate with.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:38 |
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Eggs posted:Someone aiding terrorist organizations. There are several US intelligence agencies that handle the criteria along with dozens of other agencies worldwide that we collaborate with. So HSBC then? Should they go after the main management staff, or just start bombing the buildings? http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontev...te-report-says/ Also, US Intelligence agencies' say-so makes someone a terrorist? Brilliant. Where's the oversight to make sure its not an error or someone settling a personal vendetta? If people are being killed in a country's name, shouldn't there be someone from outside an organization indicating it's being done correctly? olylifter fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 19:44 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:41 |
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Eggs posted:Someone aiding terrorist organizations. There are several US intelligence agencies that handle the criteria along with dozens of other agencies worldwide that we collaborate with. Why have any checks & balances in our government at all then, since our Dear Leaders are obviously so on top of things? I'm sure they will never hurt anyone with all that power just for personal reasons. People don't do that, at least not in our government which is so busy protecting us from all the big, bad things out there! E: The interest payments on what we owe are about to equal 100% of our income, but our leaders are incapable of corruption/mistakes (even though they can't pass a budget) and need to be able to kill on a whim (anywhere, anyone, without oversight)! Don't worry, people/governments that are basically broke never do bad things using insane amounts of power, so we just need to give them more and more until... it's enough, or something. ZLogic fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 19:52 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:41 |
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Eggs posted:Someone aiding terrorist organizations. There are several US intelligence agencies that handle the criteria along with dozens of other agencies worldwide that we collaborate with. Good thing those agencies don't make mistakes, otherwise we might kill innocent human beings and foster anti American hate in their loved ones.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:46 |
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olylifter posted:So who's a terrorist then? What criteria are you using to delineate this designation? What scrutiny is there regarding designating someone under this heading? You trust marines to shoot combatants and not civilians, to the best of their ability, and they're just going by their gut in a pitched firefight. Sometimes there are casualties in a war and you try to minimize them, but there is a real "war" on terror and there are bodies on both sides. How are the drones any different?
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:48 |
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Locobono posted:You trust marines to shoot combatants and not civilians, to the best of their ability, and they're just going by their gut in a pitched firefight. Sometimes there are casualties in a war and you try to minimize them, but there is a real "war" on terror and there are bodies on both sides. How are the drones any different? Yes, we are at war against an abstract concept. Don't worry, we'll be victorious once everyone stops using English! Meanwhile just give us more and more power, kthx~
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:53 |
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Locobono posted:You trust marines to shoot combatants and not civilians, to the best of their ability, and they're just going by their gut in a pitched firefight. Sometimes there are casualties in a war and you try to minimize them, but there is a real "war" on terror and there are bodies on both sides. How are the drones any different? Its appropriate you put war in quotes. Wars end. This isn't a war. How does one have a war on a tactic? Terrorism is a tactic of war. Its the equivalent of having a war on flanking.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:54 |
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Captain Beans posted:Good thing those agencies don't make mistakes, otherwise we might kill innocent human beings and foster anti American hate in their loved ones. Collateral damage is an unfortunate part of warfare, and yes mistakes do happen. Fortunately precision drone strikes mitigate this as much as possible, in comparison to older weapon systems.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:55 |
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sentientcarbon posted:Fixed that for you. See the problem now? No, but we're probably not operating under similar understandings of the implications of warfare, and the executive branches mandate' thereof.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:56 |
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Eggs posted:Collateral damage is an unfortunate part of warfare, and yes mistakes do happen. Fortunately precision drone strikes mitigate this as much as possible, in comparison to older weapon systems. Sometimes (frequently), mistakes do happen on purpose. Fortunately, technology allows for them to be bigger, invasive, insidious, and much more catastrophic, in comparison to older weapon systems.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:57 |
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Eggs posted:Collateral damage is an unfortunate part of warfare, and yes mistakes do happen. Fortunately precision drone strikes mitigate this as much as possible, in comparison to older weapon systems. Drones aren't as indiscriminate as carpet-bombing, thank you, I had no idea, that must be an enormous consolation to the thousands of orphans/bereaved rendered as such by the American military arm. They'll sleep soundly knowing that that bombed wedding was bombed with precision.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 19:59 |
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olylifter posted:Its appropriate you put war in quotes. Wars end. This isn't a war. So how many deaths does a group need to rack up before we can conduct warfare against them? A thousand? Ten thousand? Should we arrest each individual member of an enormous, multi-national movement with cross-border operations and determine each individuals guilt and bring them to America to punish them appropriately, as if that were possible? Because they don't operate under a flag, but nonetheless have the resources and organization to conduct warfare, they don't get treated as combatants?
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:02 |
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Locobono posted:So how many deaths does a group need to rack up before we can conduct warfare against them? I know, right?!? We didn't have any way of dealing with GROUPS. THAT KILLED PEOPLE. before our government took away all our freedom and prvacy!
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:04 |
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ZLogic posted:Sometimes (frequently), mistakes do happen on purpose. Fortunately, technology allows for them to be bigger, invasive, insidious, and much more catastrophic, in comparison to older weapon systems. Please go back to war-era Japan, look at the firebombed cities, and tell me we haven't made progress. The thousands of burned corpses may weaken your argument, though.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:04 |
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My favorite part about your posts is your policeman's pelvis-thrusting avatar. It summarizes your ear-clogged disposition so perfectly!
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:07 |
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Locobono posted:Please go back to war-era Japan, look at the firebombed cities, and tell me we haven't made progress. The thousands of burned corpses may weaken your argument, though. A reduction from 50 units of barbarism to 45 isn't exactly a glowing accolade. Also, you know, [NWS/NMS maybe, That Picture from the highway of death] http://www.peace.ca/faceof1.jpg Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 20:21 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:07 |
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Locobono posted:So how many deaths does a group need to rack up before we can conduct warfare against them? A thousand? Ten thousand? Should we arrest each individual member of an enormous, multi-national movement with cross-border operations and determine each individuals guilt and bring them to America to punish them appropriately, as if that were possible? Because they don't operate under a flag, but nonetheless have the resources and organization to conduct warfare, they don't get treated as combatants? I dont think anyone is saying we should be executing private military contractors without trial.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:07 |
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Man, I never knew we had this many diehard conservatives on SA. To those defending this, I assume you're also ok with all of the following: 1. Warrantless wiretapping with zero oversight 2. Warrantless video surveillance with zero oversight 3. Warrantless search and seizure 4. Indefinite detention of anyone without the need to so much as accuse them of a crime (again, zero oversight) 5. Any and all manner of torture, regardless of whether or not the person being tortured has been charged with anything (and of course, zero oversight) All five of these are more benign than straight-up murder, so I assume all you defenders of this memo are cool with 'em all. Security at any price I guess 
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:08 |
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nimh posted:I heard he rescued a kitten once and nursed it back to health. After, the kitten went jihad & gunned down a bunch of infidels just like the US soldier he mentored. Are you for real or trolling? Again for the bleeding hearts, good riddance. gently caress him, his family and his deplorable ideology. Glad to know i compete with a top 10 terrorist! I'm fairly sure the world would be better off if you and your entire family were hit by a drone strike. Making this post is evidence of your abhorrent ideology and more than enough evidence to say you should be killed. You have basically associated yourself with the Klan by being right of center and that means you are associated with a terrorist organization. That's pretty much the logic of this. Anyway, we don't have any evidence of what, exactly, he did other than make videos and post on forums.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:16 |
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Ambrose Burnside posted:A reduction from 50 units of barbarism to 45 isn't exactly a glowing accolade. Also, you know, Whoah, big shocker, war sucks and people die gruesomely. Can't we all just get along? Peace across the globe, etc. Meanwhile in the real world the U.S. Government, tasked with the thankless job of protecting you from another domestic attack, applies all of it's resources to satisfying everyone. They've developed low cost, high-precision munitions that are an order of magnitude less harmful to civilian populations than conventional land warfare, and lo and behold don't put troops at risk either. These tools are so overwhelmingly effective that the government of Pakistan has to admit they need them despite furious public protest at the breach of sovereignty. But it's not CLEAN enough, cry the ignorant. One time a kid died! I saw it on TV and it's horrible! I'm pretty open minded - let's hear your alternatives. Tell me how we can stop them from blowing up buildings and subways in a neat, clean fashion.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:23 |
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Locobono posted:Please go back to war-era Japan, look at the firebombed cities, and tell me we haven't made progress. The thousands of burned corpses may weaken your argument, though. No one cares about the drone's accuracy, and no one disputes that we can't hit smaller targets. The issue is how we are deciding to mark the potential corpses for burning. If we specifically target a wedding or a 15 year old son of a terrorist with either a B-17 or a drone middle it doesn't matter. Either way the issue is with the intelligence process no the weapon.
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:23 |
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Cardiovorax posted:I am, but people kinda have a point when they point out that foreign combatants using guerilla tactics can't really be dragged before a court very easily and don't necessarily fall under US jurisdiction anyway. This memo, on the other hand, makes the claim that the US government can straight-up execute US citizens anywhere in the world without any trial whatsoever, which is really loving illegal. This is actually a big deal, because it fucks your whole constitution and bill of rights sideways. I'd be terrified if my government told me that they can now legally kill me if they so much as suspect that I'm associated with the wrong people - not in the least because they've done so before and it was a complete clusterfuck. I would love to know what kind of education system you are a product of if you think that all the people that have been killed by drone strikes are "combatants". http://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...ret-drone-wars/ "Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent." So a 16 year old sheperd or a gathering of forty village elders are a military threat? What in the hell. Why aren't you up in arms about this? Oh right because they aren't American so who gives a poo poo
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:25 |
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Mugsbaloney posted:I would love to know what kind of education system you are a product of if you think that all the people that have been killed by drone strikes are "combatants". Don't forget the tactic of blowing people up, and then doing the same to their funerals a few days later, because its presumed that other 'militants' or 'terrorists' will be there. That's a standard terror tactic by the way. Shouldn't the US gov't be bombing themselves, in the name of the war on terror?
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| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:30 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 01:16 |
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sentientcarbon posted:Man, I never knew we had this many diehard conservatives on SA. To those defending this, I assume you're also ok with all of the following: Straw man. You can't wish away the enormous dividing line between an American going about their daily business and an American in Afghanistan fraternizing with the enemy. EDIT: Also who says only conservatives support drone warfare? I'm liberal as hell and I'm a huge supporter. Sorry about taking away your echo chamber. Locobono fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2013 around 20:34 |
| # ? Feb 6, 2013 20:31 |
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