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Hoohah
Jun 27, 2004
Chimp



Welcome one and all to the new Protoss Pagoda for Heart of the Swarm! We're still currently in the beta, but between now and March 12th, expect only minor changes in the way of patches on the beta.

First Thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3420612
Second Thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3498804



What's new in Heart of the Swarm?
* Sentries now have Hallucinate by default.

* Once you've built a Cybernetics Core, you can produce a Mothership Core from any nexus (See units for more information).

* Blink research now takes longer (mostly due to the synergy between Blink Stalkers and the Mothership Core granting vision).

* Dark Shrine's cost was reduced to 150 Minerals and 100 Gas (From 100 Minerals and 250 Gas)

* A new unit, the Oracle, can be produced at the Stargate (no other requirements). See units for more information.

* A new unit, the Tempest, can be produced at the Stargate once a Fleet Beacon has also been built. See units for more information.

* The Mothership's vortex ability was changed to instantly kill a single target (for the same energy).

* Void Rays were substantially modified. See units for more information.

* Carrier's can now micro, as their interceptors do not need to return to the carrier if you change targets while they're attacking another target. See units for more information.

* Phoenix's were modified to increase their attack range by default, and they maintain the range upgrade at the fleet beacon. See units for more information.

General Mechanics and Information for Protoss Players
The most notable Protoss mechanics that are different from Zerg and Terran are:
1) Chronoboost
2) Pylons
3) Warp-in
4) Shields

Chronoboost is an ability used by all nexuses you create. All nexus have a cap of 100 energy, and for 25 of that energy, you can chronoboost a structure to hasten its build or research time. An example of usage is to chronoboost your cybernetics core in order to get warpgate research done faster, or to chronoboost a warpgate to have its cooldown finish sooner. Your total nexus energy should be as close to zero as possible by utilizing chronoboosts! Nexus energy serves literally no other purpose, so chronoboost your rear end off!

Pylons serve as the Protoss supply generator (food) and provide a power field. This power field is required for all Protoss buildings except Assimilators (gas), Nexus, and other pylons. As long as a structure is within a power field from at least one pylon, it remains active and can be used for whatever its purpose is. If a building is no longer in a power field, it will de-power into an inactive state, and anything it is currently working on (research or a unit) is suspended at its current progress. Re-powering the structure will immediately resume its progress. You can cancel what a de-powered structure is working on to reclaim those resources. One thing of note is that if you are using a structure for 'existence' purposes, such as a Forge in order to build cannons, you do not have to keep the forge powered!

Warp-in refers to two mechanics: The first is straightforward in that all you have to do to build a structure is command a probe to build it, and it will create a warp field and eventually bring the structure in. You do not need to dedicate that probe to the construction!

The second mechanic is the warpgate research, which is provided by the Cybernetics Core. Warpgate research allows you to transform your gateways into warpgates, which can then warp-in a unit to any point on the map that is currently a power field. That means you can place pylons at advantageous locations near your opponent, and use warp-in to reinforce your army rapidly! This becomes even more fun when you realize that the transport ship, the Warp Prism, can carry units and deploy a power field to warp units in!

Shields are the final major mechanic. All Protoss units and structures have shields, which regenerate over time. The 'hull' or body health of a Protoss unit cannot be healed in any way in a 1v1 game (in team games, you can bug your Terran or Zerg allies to give you a hand). Thus, when engaging in combat, the idea is to move units away from the fight when they have had their shields reduced to zero, preferably without taking any 'hull' damage. Doing so will mean that you can regenerate that portion of their health, and get them back into the fight later against a weaker opponent.

There are three major tech paths, focused around the three unit producing structures: Gateways, Robotics Facilities, and Stargates.

Gateways are the most common Protoss military unit producing structure, and serve as a backbone for all three kinds of play. On their own, however, you can simply throw down more gateways to produce massive amounts of Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, and Dark Templar. Zealots and Stalkers particularly benefit from the production of a Twilight Council, which allows you to upgrade the former with Charge, letting them close the distance to opponents swiftly, and the latter with Blink, which instantly moves your units in a direction you choose. Twilight Council is required to build a Templar Archives, unlocking High Templar, or the Dark Shrine, which lets you use Dark Templar.

Robotics Facility allows you to build Observers for detection, Immortals, Warp Prisms, and Colossi. Once a robotics is produced, you can build a robotics support bay, which allows you to upgrade Observer and Warp Prism speed, and increase the Colossus range.

Finally, the Stargate got a lot of love in Heart of the Swarm. On its own, it can produce Phoenix, Void Rays, and Oracles, and once you've produced a Fleet Beacon, you can add in Tempests and Carriers. The Fleet Beacon contains upgrades that increase Phoenix range and allow you to deploy your Carrier's interceptors essentially instantaneously instead of one per half second.

Upgrades are handled at the Forge (for ground units and shields) and the Cybernetics Core (for air). To research level 2 and 3 at the Forge, a Twilight Council is required, and for the Cybernetics Core, a Fleet Beacon.

Units
Zealot: The ground-only meat shield and initial army unit of the Protoss, produced from Gateways and Warpgates. Zealots are typically used to delay attackers while your other, more powerful units, get into range and deal their damage. Zealots can be upgraded at the Twilight Council to gain the charge ability, which lets them guarantee at least one attack, and increases their default speed to match that of stalkers. Zealots are decent to good units for almost all compositions, and serve as damage dealing versions of force fields that can be killed.

Stalker: A bread-and-butter unit for the Protoss, the Stalker can shoot both ground and air units, making them useful in all match-ups. Stalkers can be produced from Gateways and Warpgates as long as you have a Cybernetics Core. Stalkers deal extra damage to armored units, but they are typically used in kiting situations to take out opponents using their fast ground speed. Stalkers can be upgraded at the Twilight Council to gain the blink ability, which lets them instantly teleport in any direction in range 8, as long as they have sight of the target location. This last fact is important, as paired with a Mothership Core, Hallucinated Phoenix, real Phoenix, or Observer can let you blink into the base of your opponent and harass their production. Overall Stalkers are a good unit, but if your opponent is ready for them, the damage they can inflict is reduced dramatically.

Sentry: One of the most hated units in the game, due to a single ability. Sentries are produced from Gateways and Warpgates as long as you have a Cybernetics Core. Sentries are ground based casters that start with 50 energy with a very weak single target attack, very slow movement speed, fragile health and shields, and three abilities:

-Hallucinate: Allows you to create a fake version of almost any other Protoss unit. Hallucinated units deal no damage, and do not have upgrades of the unit being hallucinated, but otherwise they retain all capabilities. The most common use for Hallucinate is to create a Hallucinated Phoenix, which can be used for free (energy cost only) scouting. Hallucinate costs 100 energy.

-Guardian Shield: Creates a bubble of radius 4 around the sentry, which reduces the ranged damage taken of all units under the bubble by 2. This allows you to use gateway and robotics units to attack ranged attackers much more efficiently. The bubble is very noticeable, and given the sentry's propensity to try and get to the front of a fight to use its lovely beam weapon, enemies are likely to target the bubble maker early to gain full effectiveness on other units. Guardian Shield costs 75 energy.

-Force Field: The ability that has driven every player to want to kill themselves. Sentries can throw down a a dome-like projection on the ground that prevents ground movement in radius of 1.7 for 15 seconds. This allows sentries to split the attacking forces in half, making them much more manageable to deal with, or block ramps to prevent attacks or retreats. Well placed force fields can turn the tide of battle in an instant, while poorly utilized force fields can almost guarantee a much more difficult road to victory. Force Fields can be 'crushed' or instantly broken if they are touched by a Massive unit (Thor, Archon, Colossus, or Ultralisk).

High Templar: Produced from Gateways and Warpgates when you have Templar Archive, High Templar (HTs) are a late game caster unit. They have no attack, are very slow moving, and start with 50 energy. They have two energy based abilities and one other ability:

- Feedback: Instantly removes all of the energy on the targeted unit, and deals damage equal to the amount of energy drained. Used primarily against other spell casters, like Ghosts or Infestors, it also sees some use against Medivacs (if it doesn't kill the Medivac, it will reduce the amount of times the Terran can chain stim) and Battlecruisers (to deal damage and prevent Yamato Cannon). Feedback costs 50 energy.

- Psionic Storm: Throws down a zone of radius 1.5 for 4 seconds that deals 80 damage to any targets caught within (including air units) over those 4 seconds (20 damage per second). One of the premier abilities used by the Protoss to deal with the Terran bio-ball (the other is Colossi). This spell is dangerous enough to kill any worker unit caught within, and does massive damage to clumped marines, marauders, hydras, roaches, zerglings, zealots, and sentries. Storm costs 75 energy.

- Archon Warp: Can merge with another High Templar or Dark Templar to create an Archon (see below).

When using Templar, expect to see your opponent target them early and often, particularly against Terran who can use Ghosts to EMP them. Keeping them in a warp prism is a high level tactic that allows you to keep them from being EMPed, or using them for drops!

Dark Templar: Produced from Gateways and Warpgates when you have a Dark Shrine, Dark Templar (DTs) are very strong single target ground units that are permanently cloaked. The trade off for this cloak is relatively low shield and health. Dark Templar can be utilized at almost any point in the game, and can viciously punish players who are forgoing detection. Once detection is available, however, DTs must either be used in substantial numbers that they can ignore damage while destroying a target, or simply used elsewhere. Sniping detection is a great way to keep DTs in the game, but with detection so easy to produce in the mid to late game, it may be better to simply shift to another unit.

Dark Templar also have Archon Warp, and can merge with another High or Dark Templar to create an Archon.

Archon: Produced from the merger of two HTs or DTs, the Archon is a massive unit with very high shield value and low health. Archons have a range 3 attack that can hit both air and ground, which has a very short splash range that deals extra damage to biological units. Archons are fairly bulky, however, and getting them into position can take some micro. Archons are decent units, and are a good way to gain ground meat shields that deal decent damage if you are high on gas, but they are reasonably easy to kite and kill, despite their shields

Phoenix: Produced from the Stargate, the Phoenix is the first of two 'anti-air' units, specializing in taking out light opponents. Phoenix are the fastest units in the game, and can shoot while moving, in any direction. Their attacks do extra damage to light units. Additionally, Phoenix can use their energy to 'lift' non-massive units, immobilizing both the phoenix and the unit, but putting the unit into the 'air' field, allowing other Phoenix to attack the unit. This is particularly useful for raiding mineral lines. Phoenix tend to clump, so they are vulnerable to Thor's missile volley or Infestor's fungal growth. Once a Fleet Beacon is produced, you can research Anion Pulse-Crystals, which increases the range of all phoenix by 2 (range 6 total).

Void Ray: Produce from the Stargate, the Void Ray is a middle of the road fighter. It can target and shoot both air and ground, and specializes in attacking units with the 'armored' attribute, by activating the Prismatic Beam ability, which increases its damage vs armored by 6 for 20 seconds. It naturally deals additional damage to armored as well. Void Rays also tend to clump, so they have the same vulnerabilities, with the additional problem in that void rays are slightly slower than most other Protoss units. In large numbers, Void Rays can do phenomenal damage to opponents. The Prismatic Beam ability causes a gray countdown bar to appear over the Void Ray, showing you (and your opponent) how long the additional damage is in effect.

NEW TO HOTS! Oracle: Produced from the Stargate, the Oracle is a harassment / utility caster that starts with 50 energy. It normally has no attack, but instead utilizes three abilities:

-Revelation: Range 9 with Radius of 6, any unit or building hit by Revelation shows the area around that unit for 60 seconds. Very useful to keep tabs on a flock of mutas or an opponent's deathball. Revelation costs 75 energy.

-Envision: Turns the Oracle into a detector for 60 seconds, as far as the Oracle can see. Primarily used so that you don't have to make an Observer for detection. Envision costs 50 energy.

-Pulsar Beam: Grants a beam to the Oracle that deals 15 damage, with an additional 10 to light. Pulsar Beam costs 25 energy to turn on, and drains 2 energy per second every second after that until it is turned off.

NEW TO HOTS! Tempest: Produced from the Stargate and requires a Fleet Beacon. The Tempest is the other anti-air flyer in the Protoss fleet, and this one is a bit of a doozy. The Tempest can attack both air and ground, but specializes in the former, dealing an additional 50 damage to Massive Air units. Additionally, its attacks have an absurd range 15. The tradeoff is the attack is reasonably slow, taking 3.3 second per shot. The Tempest is literally built to destroy Brood Lords, Colossi, and Battlecruisers, as well as taking out fixed emplacements like the dreaded Spine Crawler forest in the middle of the map.

Carrier: Produced from the Stargate and requires a Fleet Beacon. The Carrier is a high damage dealing unit that on its own is very slow, but can launch up to 8 interceptors to deal damage to opponents at long range. When upgraded, the Carrier is one of the highest DPS units in the game, but on its own it is very slow and vulnerable to Corruptors, Vikings, and Tempests. Interceptors cannot be targeted except by spells, but an attack move by units that have anti-air attack will attack the interceptors. A Carrier starts with 4 interceptors, and must build additional to their max of 8, and each interceptor costs 25 minerals. An upgrade at the Fleet Beacon, Graviton Catapult, allows you to launch all interceptors almost immediately. Carriers can launch interceptors at range 8, but the 'leash' range of an interceptor is actually range 14. Once the interceptors are out and attacking a target, you can give the command to the carrier to attack another target, and the fighters will now instantly switch to the target, whereas before the craft would return to the carrier to be relaunched.

Observer: Produced from the Robotics Facility, Observers serve the dual purpose of providing detection and sight on the field. They are naturally cloaked, but have no attack and very low health and shields. Observers are a staple of most armies when they move out, particularly to find cloaked or burrowed units. An upgrade at the Robotics Bay, the Gravitic Boosters, allows you to increase the acceleration and speed of an Observer.

Immortal: Produced from the Robotics Facility, Immortals are a strong anti-ground unit with unique shields. Immortals are ideal for taking out armored targets, as they deal increased damage against them, and attack at a rapid pace with instantaneous shots. Immortals have the Hardened Shield ability, which will reduce the damage of any attack that hits the shields to 10. The exceptions are any spell-based damage, like storm, mine attacks, or fungal. Immortals are very strong when paired with zealots, stalkers, and sentries to keep units from getting away, or attacking the immortals, as well as attacking air units which the Immortal cannot target.

Warp Prism: Produced from the Robotics Facility. Warp Prisms are the new 'shuttle' of the Protoss army, and can carry up to four zealots or equivalent supply (two immortals, one colossus, etc). Additionally, Warp Prisms can trade their ability to move for a Warp Field beneath the Warp Prism in a small energy, creating a power field that can allow you to warp in units. Warp Prisms can be upgraded at the Robotics Bay with Gravitic Drive, which increases the acceleration and speed of a Warp Prism in flight mode. All combined, the Warp Prism can be a devastating harassment unit, or a good mobile reinforcement location without the immobility of a Pylon.

Colossus: The other unit in line for the most-hated in the Protoss arsenal, the Colossus is produced from the Robotics Facility once a Robotics Bay is produced. Colossi tower over the field and actually extend into the sky field, which means they can be targeted by anti-air attacks such as Viking, Phoenix, Corruptor, Turrets, or Spore Crawlers. All of this is offset by the fact that the Colossus deals disgusting anti-ground damage in an AOE fashion, melting opposing armies in seconds if they're not ready for the Colossus. Colossus can also walk up and down cliffs, allowing them greater mobility, which is typically used to escape death or reach a position your opponent can't fire back on. Colossi are the other unit (along with High Templar) used by Protoss to deal with the Terran bio ball, and are also good at ripping through Zerglings and Hydralisks as long as you can keep both said units away from the Colossus. The Colossus can't be block in by anything except terrain, as they can just step over any other unit and they crush force fields.

New in HOTS! Mothership Core: The Mothership Core can be produced from a Nexus once you have Cybernetics Core. You can only have one Mothership Core or Mothership at any time. The Mothership Core is an early harassment deflector or fast damage opening support unit. The core moves at a relatively slow speed, about as fast as a Sentry, and has a very weak but fast firing main cannon. The strength of the core lies in its abilities, and it starts with 50 energy:

-Mass Recall: For 100 energy, you can transport the Mothership Core and any units in radius 7 to a targeted Nexus. Perfect for getting out of a bad attack, but the range is small enough that some units may be left behind.

-Time Warp: 75 energy, creates a radius 3.5 green dome that reduces the movement speed of ground units caught within by 50%. This has some harassment capabilities, but is typically used in conjunction with force fields to prevent units from getting away. This does not affect your own units.

-Photon Overcharge: 100 Energy, grants the Photon Overcharge cannon to a targeted nexus, which deals 20 damage and has range 13.

The Mothership Core can be used for both offense and defense, and doing so is up to the preference of the player. Be warned, though, the core is very fragile.

Mothership: The Mothership can be upgraded from the Mothership Core once you have a Fleet Beacon. This giant ship has a cloaking field that hides all nearby units and structures, but no longer has Photon Overcharge. Time Warp and Mass Recall stay the same. Largely a useless unit now, since by the time you get it out, your opponent will have detection.

Openings
Players familiar with Wings of Liberty should rest assured that most builds used in WoL retain their general capabilities in Heart of the Swarm. There might be a new unit that specifically denies it, but its not guaranteed your opponent will make those units.

The standard opening is intended to get you going towards bigger and greater things. The build order for this is:
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
14 Assimilator
15 Pylon
17 Cybernetics Core

From there, it largely depends on what you intend to do.

Three Gate expand: Build two more gateways, and keep all of them on cooldown. Research warpgate and chronoboost once the Cybernetics Core is done. Transform the gateways into warpgates as soon as you can, interrupting whatever is being built to do so if you must. Use your force to defend attacks or poke at your opponent while you get a nexus.

One Gate Expand: Build a Nexus on 20 supply, research warp gate, and get a Mothership core. Throw down additional gates when you have the money to get up to three gates. Keep producing from all, and about the same time your additional gates finish, you should finish Warpgate Research and be ready to start reinforcing your army. Use your initial units (typically stalkers) to defend attacks along with Photon Overcharge.

Three Gate Tech: Build two more gateways, and take your second gas. Once you have the gas for whichever tech you want, throw down that item. Strong follows from this are: Oracle or Phoenix worker line harassment from the Stargate, Immortal / Stalker / Zealot push from the Robo, Blink harassment using the Twilight Council, or Dark Templar if you see your opponent doesn't have good detection (or you just feel like it!)

Matchups
For now, builds are largely in flux as most pro players and theorycrafters are still playing Wings of Liberty. The next post will be updated with good builds beyond the standard openings above once they become generally recognizable from professional play. If you are already familiar in general with builds and how to take on opponents of all three races, then skip to Enemy Analysis for specifics on what changed.


Terran can build one of three kinds of armies: pure bio (Typically Marine, Marauder, Medivac with Ghosts and Vikings), bio tank (Typically Marines, Tanks, Ghosts, and Vikings), or pure mech (Typically Mines, Hellions, Tanks, Thors, and Vikings).

Pure Bio was long the favorite against Protoss since it allowed the Terran army to counter almost everything the Protoss did, changing it from a rock-paper-scissor game to a pure micro game. This fighting composition is built around the bio ball, which is Marines, Marauders, and Ghosts being supported by Medivac healing. Stim is the most common ability, and most Terrans at least understand the idea of stutter stepping to keep their opponents at bady while dealing high damage. The Protoss response to Pure Bio is typically gateway units, primarily zealots and sentries, to tank and hold their opponent in place while using Colossi and Storm to erase the bio forces. Terrans will respond based on which AOE unit you used, utilizing Vikings to kill Colossi, which will necessitate Stalkers and Templar. If you use Templars, your opponent will produce Ghosts which can EMP the energy out of the Templars, and EMP the shields off of Archons and Zealots. A good Protoss vs Bio Terran game will revolve around tech switching between these two AOE units while keeping the pressure on your opponent, such as making Colossi after you kill all his vikings, and switching back to Templar as the viking count climbs and the ghost count dwindles.

Bio Tank is a positional game, and is not as strong as Pure Bio or Pure Mech against the Protoss due to Zealots, Immortals, and Colossi. You should be ready for this kind of play nontheless, typically by using Colossi and gateway units. Your opponent in this situation will use tanks in advantageous positions, and will use marines to try and bait your units into tank shots. Just wait for colossi and large numbers of zealots before pushing.

Pure Mech is also positional, but your opponent will now gain good meatshields of their own in the form of Hellbats, and can try and drag you back into mines. The most common way to deal with Pure Mech is chargelots and a very strong air force of Void Ray, Tempest, and Carrier. Mixing in stalkers can help deal with Vikings and Hellbats as well. The goal here is typically to destroy as many tanks, vikings, and thors without suffering too many losses, while being ready for Hellbat or Hellion harass.

Early game harass from Terrans is going to be a quick bio pushout, reapers, hellions, or banshees. Photon Overcharge solves all four, except banshees that might have cloak.

Enemy Analysis
Terran's did not get much in the way of changes in the Beta, but they are still a strong opponent to go against. Their new units or major unit changes are:

Hellbats: Hellbats are anti-zealots, and when dropped from Medivacs, anti-worker lines. They are still very weak against Stalkers or Immortals, and still can't shoot up. The biggest issue here is the Medivacs dropping them on your worker line, or worse, three paired with a widow mine. You'll need to be watching the minimap if you see your opponent going mech for exactly this.

Widow Mine: Widow Mines deal very high damage to a single target, and have a strong splash. They can only attack while burrowed, and only once every 40 seconds. They cannot target observers on their own without a scan or a raven, but their splash can still hit the obs. You can see a Widow Mine in the ground by a little blackish circle similar to a roach. In the late game, be aware that they can burrow REALLY FAST.

Ravens: Seeker Missile now highlights a target it is going to go after in red, giving you a much easier way to see which unit needs to get out of the clump. As long as the unit is in range of the missile when it fires, though, it can't avoid it anymore.

Thors: Thors can now turn their anti-air AOE into a much stronger single target shot. They can use this to blow Tempests or Carriers up. Against anythign else, they'll usually use the AOE since Void Rays, Oracles, and Phoenix clump.

Medivacs: Now have a booster ability that increases their movement and acceleration for 8 seconds, which means they can typically fly right over your cannons or stalkers waiting for them. Alternately, they can use boosters to escape death. All of this means that drops of all kinds are going to be more dangerous than they were before, and you'll have to be johnny-on-the-spot if you're going to use Photon Overcharge to deal with them.


Zergs typically use one of two general middle game attacks: Roach/Hydra or Ling/Muta. Late game you can expect to face one of Broodlords/Infestors, Swarm Hosts, or Vipers as well. Ultras are always a possibility as well.

The Roach/Hydra game is using quick to produce, strong units in the form of Roaches and Hydras. Look for your opponent to take three bases early in this case, but delay gas until saturation is maxed. Robotics is by far the way to go here, building gateway units along with Immortal / Colossi. The Immortals will wreck the Roaches, and your Colossi will melt the Hydra. The issue is that his combination deals a LOT of damage is very mobile once the Hydra speed is done. If you can break their big attack, and its almost inevitable followup, you'll be fine.

Ling/Muta is going to be seen a lot more given the sheer strength of Mutas from all the beta changes to them. Lings will be used typically to force you to build Zealots and/or to harass your mineral lines. Mutas will typically force Stalkers / High Templar, which are vulnarable to Lings, and the cycle begins. The standard counter to Mutas has become Phoenix in equivalent numbers, and keeping the mutas from doing damage, while building Chargelots to handle the lings. Air is what you'll want to keep going with; even if your opponent transitions into Ultralisks, you can use Void Rays, Tempests, and Carriers to deal with them rather than trying to pump out Immortals.

Broodlord/Infestor is probably going to to see a downswing in usage, as Infestors were very heavily nerfed and Tempests absolutely ruin Broodlords while Void Rays can take down Corruptors. As you might suspect, go air if you see this happening.

Swarm Hosts are a little tricky. They synergize well with Roach Hydra because of the upgrades, so a smart zerg will build a lot of both and sit them on top of the hosts while the locusts keep harassing your front until you run out of patience or money. The best bet here is to build up a very strong force, kill a wave of locusts and just go for it. Your goal is to kill most of the Roach/Hydra/Ling army on top of the Swarm Hosts to either force the Hosts to move, or allow you to kill them.

Vipers are a counter specifically against Stalkers, which means that your opponent can get in close or hold your stalkers in position while lings/roach/hydra tear them to shreds. Additionally, abduct means that your high value power units, like Templar, Colossi, Carrier, or Tempest can be pulled into range of the zerg forces. Also note that if the Viper abducts a Warp Prism, it will stop the warp in as the power field moves.

Ultras mean you need to have good air units or immortals to deal with them. Just pull everything else back, or use blink micro if you don't have the immortals.

Enemy Analysis
Zergs got a lot of very early game changes, and several late game modifications.

Burrow: Was moved to Hatchery tech. This means that banelings bombs are always a possibility early.

Pneumatized Carapace: Was moved to Hatchery tech. Don't expect to see this, though, as its still expensive, but you might see fast overlords early. No longer a guaranteed sign of drops.

Hydras: Now have a movement speed upgrade at Lair tech that lets them keep up with Roaches. Expect to see a lot more roach/hydra pushes at the mid game.

Infestors: Took it in the rear end. Fungal is now a projectile that can be dodged, Infested Terran eggs have reduced health, and ITs no longer benefit from upgrades. With the changes to Muta and Hydra, these units will be somewhat rarer.

Mutalisks: Are now much faster, and regenerate health very rapidly. Cannons, Photon Overcharge, Storm, and Blink can still ward them away, but be prepared for them to just bounce between two or three bases killing probes. Phoenix can still deal with them using good micro, especially if you get the range upgrade.

Swarm Hosts: Each host spews out two locusts that will usually be upgraded to last a long time. Locusts are like mini roaches, they have a stupid amount of health. Build up a strong force and take them out, they're very expensive so each one lost hurts.

Viper: Sentries, Immortals, and Stalkers are the only units to be affected by Blinding Cloud, so if you're playing stalker heavy expect that. If not, expect Abducts of your power units.

Ultralisks: Now do terrifying, stupid amount of AOE damage. Zealots, Stalkers, and Sentries will simply melt to these. Void Rays and Immortals are the way to go to take em down.


The biggest trick to protoss is to simply find out what they're doing and counter it.

Examples: If they're going air, get stalkers to deal with the phoenix / oracle / void rays. Note that Stalkers don't trade very well against powered up Void Rays. If they're going robotics, get chargelots and air, or robotics of your own. Tempests can destroy Colossi disgustingly fast, so abuse that if you've gone air. In general though any build you can think of, you should be ready to deal with until you get a scout off.

There's not too much to say here, as current PvP is simply revolving around being flexible to counter what your opponent is doing or making a strong timing attack. Any strats that come along will likely revolve around the metagame as it continues to expand.

--
As additional strats become available, check the next post for links to specific builds. Post in this thread if you have protoss questions, suggestions for the OP, or good builds/ideas you think should be added!

Hoohah fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2013 around 02:54

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Hoohah
Jun 27, 2004
Chimp

Builds:
Check out https://docs.google.com/document/d/...7pQ1AilICk/edit for a brief rundown of builds, as they get popularized in Heart of the Swarm, I'll add them here!

General
Four Gate All-In: Ah the much hated Four Gate. This build used to be the go to build if you wanted to win, and over time, has slowly lost a lot of its power. That said, if your opponent is being greedy or cutting corners, you can still punish them ruthlessly using this build. This build is very all-in, so it largely depends on how much damage you do to your opponent if they manage to fend off your attack. If you took out a significant portion of their tech and/or workers, you should be fine to start going into something else, or making a big reinforcement and doing another all-in push. If you were repulsed early and/or you didn't manage to take a lot of workers or structures out, you might as well GG because you're in a very bad spot.

There are multiple variants on Four Gate, but this is a pretty typical version:
2x Chronoboost on Nexus (at 10 and 12 supply), all remaining on your Cybernetics once you've started Warpgate Research, and use it as soon as it falls off.
9 Pylon
13 Gateway - Scout using the probe, and then hide it near your opponent's base (or in it, if you think you can get away with it). It is vital that this probe not die.
14 Gas
16 Pylon
17 Cybernetics
18 Zealot - Send the zealot to your scouting probe if its outside of your opponent's base, otherwise send it to the front of your opponent's base. Rally your gateway to this zealot for the next two units.
@ 100% Cyber: Warpgate Research - Chronoboost this.
22 Stalker
@ 50% Stalker: 3x Gateway
24 Pylon - This should be *relatively* close to your opponent, but not so close that you alert your opponent to what you're doing, or lose it or your probe.
24 Stalker

At this point (roughly 5:35) you should finish all four gates and shortly after Warpgate. Warp in 4 stalkers and plant a pylon very near your opponent and go for it. Your attack should begin no later than 5:50. Your mission here is to get up their ramp while you wait for warpgates to finish cooling down. If you can get up their ramp and bring your probe with you to plant a pylon up top, you're in wonderful shape. Your second warpin should be mostly zealots. You'll only get 3-4 warpins total before your money won't be sufficient anymore and you'll run out of gas, so you need to micro to make your units count.

The major changes in HOTS that affect this build are the following:
1) You can no longer warp up a cliff. This blunts a LOT of your capabilities if you were used to planting the pylon near the base of a cliff and going up to warp in zealots up top. This means that any kind of wall at the top of the ramp will more than likely spell the end of your 4 gate.
2) Reapers can snipe your probe and zealots, and back off easily.
3) It never really worked once Zerg figured it out, so recommended you don't use it against them past platinum, maybe gold.
4) Photon Overcharge and a three gate will beat your 4 gate. Scouting is essential if you're going to try this against Protoss, but if you can get up the ramp and plant your pylon outside of the range of Photon Overchage, you can wait for it to fall off then do your push.
5) If your opponent sneaks their mothership core around to your mineral line, you'll just really have to grit your teeth and try to push through. If you warp units in at home to deal with it, you'll be that many units weaker, but if you pull probes, unless you intend to bring them with you for your big push, you'll just be shooting yourself in the foot.

All in all, while you can use this build against less experienced players (platinum and lower) and be successful, you're probably better off learning a more tech-oriented build such as 3 gate robo (gateway + immortal push), 3 gate twilight (blink stalker), or 3 gate stargate (phoenix or oracle harass) than really focusing on this build anymore.

Versus Terran
MC's stalker/oracle harassment opening:

9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
20 Pylon
21 Stalker
21 Warpgate
23 Mothership Core
25 Stalker
28 Stargate

Move out with Stalkers and Mothership Core to harass the front. Build oracles / nexus (around 6:00). Followup is further oracles for offense, phoenix for defense.
(Thanks dead horse for posting)

Hoohah fucked around with this message at Mar 18, 2013 around 04:22

Fatal
Jul 29, 2004

I'm gunna kill you BITCH!!!


This is an awesome OP and makes me proud to be a protoss.

Here are some brotoss related videos*


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np7ZJ6v5wV8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FujOWXtJpO8

*I think, not fact checked

semicolonsrock
Aug 26, 2009

chugga chugga chugga

Good stuff! The one thing you probably want to add is a link to the protoss build order compendium I made. It has HOTS and WOL stuff in it. It was linked from the image at the bottom of the second thread. Probably you shoudl figure out a way to display it well, because I'm not sure anyone else realized it was there but it has a lot of builds in it, and would answer a lot of the "what is a good pvz pvt pvp build?" questions.

Hoohah
Jun 27, 2004
Chimp

VODs, Pros, and other stuff

Notable Pro Players
MC: The Protoss President, the first Protoss to win the GSL and the only Protoss to duplicate that feat. MC is typically a fan favorite with his brash confidence, stellar micro, terrifying timings, his ability to speak english well enough to be understood but not well enough to not be funny, his humor, and in general his presence as a whole. Hasn't made too much of a splash yet in 2013, and it remains to be seen how he'll play in Heart of the Swarm. He's currently in the Round of 16 of GSL Season 1, so vote for the Protoss President looking to take his third victory!

PartinG: Winner of the 2012 World Championship Series, PartinG was once part of StarTale but is now a member of the KESPA team SKT1. Took the emerging strategy of Sentry Immortal versus Zerg to its absolute pinnacle, when he told every Zerg he was up against at WCS he was going to Sentry Immortal, and proceeded to do just that all the way to victory. Currently one of three Protoss remaining in 2013 Season 1 GSL Code S. Known to 'put his soul' into his Sentry Immortal.

Seed: The other Protoss GSL winner, a member of team Incredible Miracle. An all around good Protoss player for the winningest team in StarCraft 2, he's unfortunately fell on some hard times as he has been knocked out of Code A by Symbol.

Grubby: European Foreigner Protoss, considered one of the nicest people in StarCraft alongside Sheth and TLO. Former WC3 player who is extremely popular almost everywhere he goes. Has started to dip his toes into casting, and is pretty drat good at it.

Naniwa: Swedish Foreigner Protoss, could arguably be considered one of the best foreign protosses along with Mana. Naniwa has had a long and storied history of bouncing between teams, as he's got something of an attitude problem. Famously got into a rivalry with Nestea at MLG Columbus where Naniwa disparaged the God of Zerg, and then proceeded to defeat Nestea on stage. Following this, Naniwa engaged Nestea in the GSL Blizzard Cup in 2011 where he probe rushed his opponent, causing drama around the scene for a week or two. Currently teamless, he has a sponsor from Mionix but hasn't done much in the scene of late.

HuK: Canadian Foreigner Protoss, an extremely polarizing character because of his playstyle. The only player to win MLG twice, and the first foreigner to take the gold at MLG after the exchange program, HuK sort of fell off the radar for most of 2012, attempting to push his way back into MLG pool play or GSL Code A, and usually falling at the final stages of doing so. Was recently granted an Up/Down seed in the GSL, and qualified for Code S, where he was swiftly defeated, and finally sent packing from the GSL once again by Shine. Unfortunately, he's notable by being extremely predictable, utilizing two base 7 or 8 gateway attacks and attempting to use his micro to victory. Sometimes it works, but now that most people know that's all he's going to do, they've prepared for it and easily defeated him. Hopefully he'll learn from these losses as HOTS begins, and he'll begin attempting something else. If not, look for him to drop to a middle, unremarkable tier of player.

Mana: Polish Foreigner Protoss, a relatively quiet and focused Protoss player, much the same as Seed. Won a DreamHack and ESWC in 2012.

Incontrol: American Foreigner Protoss, once again a very, very polarizing sort with the community. As a player, Incontrol is not at all well regarded, being a middle to low tier player. Was noted as being in the MLG brackets constantly in 2011 due to the fact that he managed to place well once, which he was able to ride all the way to the end of the season with a string of 0 - 4 eliminations. However, in 2011 he began joining in on casting, starting with NASL, the EG Master's Cup, and DreamHack, and has shown an aptitude for witty humor, good analysis, and a vibrant energy. Look for him to continue more down this path as he steps fully into the role of coach for Team EG now that EG has picked up stellar signings such as Revival and Jaedong.

Rain: Korean Protoss for SKT1, one of the players to switch from BW to SC2 as part of the final switch about half way through 2012. Rain has been a consistently strong player even against the old hands of SC2, and is probably one of the best KESPA players to make the switch.

Squirtle: Another strong Korean Protoss, he's currently teamless but used to be a notable name for StarTale. Squirtle is more or less a fixture in GSL, either in Code A or Code S, and is currently one of the three Protoss remaining in Code S for 2013 Season 1.

Creator: Yet another strong Korean Protoss. Was the winner of the Team Liquid Starleague #4, taking the gold over Zerg powerhouse Life.

Hero (TL): A Korean Protoss player for Team Liquid, HerO has been in the scene since the days of OGS in 2011. Winner of two Dreamhacks and a NASL, HerO is a joy to watch for his blink micro and impeccable gameplay. He's also known to a little more emotional than the rest of the Protoss pro players, reacting strongly to both his wins and his defeats while on camera. HerO is another player who has been around in the GSL for a very long time, with some luck and good practice, he has the capability of being a champion there as well. Note: There is another Korean Protoss Hero (herO) who plays for CJ Entus, don't confuse the two!

Hoohah fucked around with this message at Feb 8, 2013 around 15:40

Streebs
Dec 6, 2003

RIP

Awesome OP!

Hoohah posted:

There have to be more, but I can't remember them offhand and I'm now tired.

Rain, Squirtle, Creator, Liquid`Hero

Streebs fucked around with this message at Feb 8, 2013 around 06:08

Fatal
Jul 29, 2004

I'm gunna kill you BITCH!!!


So there's one thing right now that absolutely wrecks me: Hellbat drops. Even if I've got units in both mineral lines (talking two base right now), hellbats have such a high dps things just get insane really quick. They seem to require little-to-no micro which allows for drops to just constantly be queued in and out and with the medivac boost it just hurts

Toasterdeath
Jun 30, 2003


What maps in the current HoTS pool are you guys downvoting and why? I havent had much time to play so I'm still exploring them.

Also, i love the oracle. Any good builds based around early oracle harass while also staying safe against common early game timings?

Hoohah
Jun 27, 2004
Chimp

Toasterdeath posted:

What maps in the current HoTS pool are you guys downvoting and why? I havent had much time to play so I'm still exploring them.

Also, i love the oracle. Any good builds based around early oracle harass while also staying safe against common early game timings?

3 gate stargate.

I tend to like doing gateway cybercore expand on 20 MSC on 20 stalker on 22 gateway gateway gas stargate. You could do something like delay your nexus a bit, get gas earlier, then do gate stargate gate gate while producing oracles, you'd get them in a bit faster.

Use stalker / zealots / sentry / overcharge to keep your poo poo safe and fly in oracles. Granted, I typically do phoenix because they have other utility, especially against zerg with sniping overlords as well, but you could do 2 oracles with no major trouble while establishing your natural / picking your follow on tech.

I usually do void ray + zealot after that, get charge and armor upgrades, air attack.

Toasterdeath
Jun 30, 2003


Hoohah posted:

3 gate stargate.

I tend to like doing gateway cybercore expand on 20 MSC on 20 stalker on 22 gateway gateway gas stargate. You could do something like delay your nexus a bit, get gas earlier, then do gate stargate gate gate while producing oracles, you'd get them in a bit faster.

Use stalker / zealots / sentry / overcharge to keep your poo poo safe and fly in oracles. Granted, I typically do phoenix because they have other utility, especially against zerg with sniping overlords as well, but you could do 2 oracles with no major trouble while establishing your natural / picking your follow on tech.

I usually do void ray + zealot after that, get charge and armor upgrades, air attack.

Thanks, Ill give it a try.

One question tho, why the ground armor upgrades? I seem to remember +1 attack being nice because 2vs3 zealot hits to kill a ling. Did you mean attack or is there a stronger benefit to armor?

foutre
Sep 4, 2011


Why don't more Protoss use hallucinate? Because it relies on your opponent making a mistake?

It seems like a really strong ability for tanking, especially in the mid-game when there is rarely detection. idgi

Toasterdeath
Jun 30, 2003


foutre posted:

Why don't more Protoss use hallucinate? Because it relies on your opponent making a mistake?

It seems like a really strong ability for tanking, especially in the mid-game when there is rarely detection. idgi

Do hallucinations trigger widow mines? If so thatd be a neat use, also of course hallu immortals to take tank volleys. Most people are probably gonna say tho that 2FFs>1hallu.

Winks
Feb 16, 2009

Alright, who let Rube Goldberg in here?


Toasterdeath posted:

Do hallucinations trigger widow mines? If so thatd be a neat use, also of course hallu immortals to take tank volleys. Most people are probably gonna say tho that 2FFs>1hallu.
Yes. I've killed a halluc phoenix with one before.

I imagine hallucination is good in every situation you don't want or need the energy for the other two better spells.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


It's kinda hard to think of a situation in which a Hallucinated Archon or Immortal would prevent more damage than FF or GS. I'm sure they exist but I would guess they're quite rare.

Cicero
Dec 17, 2003

Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

foutre posted:

Why don't more Protoss use hallucinate? Because it relies on your opponent making a mistake?

It seems like a really strong ability for tanking, especially in the mid-game when there is rarely detection. idgi
People use hallucinate all the time...for scouting. For other things, well it's a lot of energy. You're probably right though that it could see more use.

Boing
Jul 12, 2005

trapped in custom title factory, send help

Zephro posted:

It's kinda hard to think of a situation in which a Hallucinated Archon or Immortal would prevent more damage than FF or GS. I'm sure they exist but I would guess they're quite rare.

To be honest this does sound perfect for Widow Mines

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


Boing posted:

To be honest this does sound perfect for Widow Mines
Yeah, true.

Siroc
Oct 10, 2004

Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say "YES"!


Why is it considered lazy to use W for warp gate instead of binding it to a number key?

Hoohah
Jun 27, 2004
Chimp

It used to not show you the warpgates cooldown. Looks like this was changed in HOTS, so you don't *need* to hotkey them anymore, but it's still handy to be able to convert the gates later.

Free Cheese
Sep 16, 2005
Come on, it's free

Also if you're terrible at Starcraft and forget to turn a gateway into a warp gate, it'll go unused until you notice the mistake.

semicolonsrock
Aug 26, 2009

chugga chugga chugga

I think the Korean fourgate or some other 10 gate variety is the new go to all in in HOTS for low league players. The 4 gate is just too easy to stop without high ground warp in.


Siroc posted:

Why is it considered lazy to use W for warp gate instead of binding it to a number key?

Usually you "tap" through your production facilities to keep tabs on them. This means quickly hitting your hotkeys for your nexus, robo, stargate, and gates one after another. So, say my nexus is 4, gate is 5 and robo is 6, I'll go 456456456456456456456456456456 really quickly whenever I'm not imminently doing something else. This makes it really easy to know when I need more probes or units or whatever. Putting warpgates on w makes it harder to do this, and there is really no reason not to. You should be hotkeying them as you build them so you can transform them with a hotkey (ie 5 tab ggg) later anyways. Tapping makes a pretty big difference in how well games go for you, in my experience, so it's nice to be able to do that. Especially because missing warp cycles is BAD since we can't queue.

Siroc
Oct 10, 2004

Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say "YES"!


semicolonsrock posted:

Usually you "tap" through your production facilities to keep tabs on them. This means quickly hitting your hotkeys for your nexus, robo, stargate, and gates one after another. So, say my nexus is 4, gate is 5 and robo is 6, I'll go 456456456456456456456456456456 really quickly whenever I'm not imminently doing something else. This makes it really easy to know when I need more probes or units or whatever. Putting warpgates on w makes it harder to do this, and there is really no reason not to. You should be hotkeying them as you build them so you can transform them with a hotkey (ie 5 tab ggg) later anyways. Tapping makes a pretty big difference in how well games go for you, in my experience, so it's nice to be able to do that. Especially because missing warp cycles is BAD since we can't queue.

Good explanation. I'll try to get into the habit. I might just have to disable W entirely.

Streebs
Dec 6, 2003

RIP

I use w as my warpgate hot key (before warpgate is done researching i hotkey my gateways though) and I don't think it's a detriment to my play. I like that it frees up a key for something else. 1-3 is army, 4 nexus, 5 robo, 6 stargate, 7-9 observers/warp prism and 0 mothership core. It's all up to personal preference, don't feel like you have to stop using w for warp gates.

semicolonsrock
Aug 26, 2009

chugga chugga chugga

I don't know, I wouldn't do that necessarily. Being able to transform gates without going to your base is really nice late game when you are going into "get ready for remax" mode. Like, it's not a huge deal, but might as well get into the habit I think. The tapping thing you don't have to do, but I do really like being able to just mindlessly macro once I make it a habit. Turning it off, you don't have to do, but it's better in general to not use it I think.

Streebs
Dec 6, 2003

RIP

semicolonsrock posted:

I don't know, I wouldn't do that necessarily. Being able to transform gates without going to your base is really nice late game when you are going into "get ready for remax" mode. Like, it's not a huge deal, but might as well get into the habit I think. The tapping thing you don't have to do, but I do really like being able to just mindlessly macro once I make it a habit. Turning it off, you don't have to do, but it's better in general to not use it I think.

I cycle through my hot keys as well, it just goes 4w56. I don't think it's much of a trouble transform warpgates in the late game either. Maybe my method is less efficient but I don't think it makes a large difference one way or another and I do think I benefit from having more available hot keys on the number bar that are easier to reach.

Penguissimo
Apr 7, 2007



Zephro posted:

It's kinda hard to think of a situation in which a Hallucinated Archon or Immortal would prevent more damage than FF or GS. I'm sure they exist but I would guess they're quite rare.

In game 1 of the Goswser/Caliber MLG qualifier match, Caliber created two hallucinated Colossi to bait Abducts. It was pretty awesome to see (especially since Goswser actually Abducted one of the hallucinated Colossi) and was one of the huge keys to Caliber holding off that push.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


Penguissimo posted:

In game 1 of the Goswser/Caliber MLG qualifier match, Caliber created two hallucinated Colossi to bait Abducts. It was pretty awesome to see (especially since Goswser actually Abducted one of the hallucinated Colossi) and was one of the huge keys to Caliber holding off that push.
Hm, fair point. I think I should go and watch this match.

Geno
Apr 26, 2004
STUPID
DICK


what happened to zeez superstar FAGGLE?

Stormy the Rabbit
Sep 16, 2008

5 more minutes of this and I'm gonna get mad!


Penguissimo posted:

In game 1 of the Goswser/Caliber MLG qualifier match, Caliber created two hallucinated Colossi to bait Abducts. It was pretty awesome to see (especially since Goswser actually Abducted one of the hallucinated Colossi) and was one of the huge keys to Caliber holding off that push.

Wouldn't this not work vs any zerg with an overseer with their army? Which is basically all of them.

Penguissimo
Apr 7, 2007



Stormy the Rabbit posted:

Wouldn't this not work vs any zerg with an overseer with their army? Which is basically all of them.

True, which is why it's still not something you're likely to see very often. Just cool to see it in a situation where the zerg pushed out without any overseers.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


A couple of questions:

1) Is there any indication that Stargate play might be viable against Terran bio yet? I can't see how it would be except for some one or two-base all-ins featuring the new void ray charge.

2) Is there any reason to expect T to try mech against Toss? It seems like the net result of adding Tempests, stronger Void Rays and making it more worthwhile to pump phoenixes means that, if anything, it's got even harder to play mech against Protoss.

So I guess that leads to a third question - is there any reason to think PvT in HOTS is going to differ from WoL in anything more than a superficial way? Or is it still going to be bio against gateway + colossus and/or templar?

edit: also there's a mistake in the OP - Phoenix default range is now 5, so with Crystals it's 7 rather than 6.

Zephro fucked around with this message at Mar 10, 2013 around 16:28

bamhand
Apr 15, 2010


I've seen Grubby try to use phoenix (ineffectively) as drop defense; but he also lost 4 phoenix for free to marines. Zealot, colo, phoenix was a thing for a little bit in WoL, maybe it'll get popular again with the phoenix range boost plus having to defend against ignite after burners? The problem is you can lose your entire phoenix fleet in 2 seconds if you mis control them over a pack of marines.

Star Man
Jun 1, 2008

DWN037

As a dopey kid stuck in bronze league, I feel like I did something right and successfully did a four gate.

http://drop.sc/309877

Vogue
Feb 8, 2012

too powerful its just too powerful we have to stop it

I didn't play Heart of the Swarm beta at all so I'm going to be behind the curve for a bit. The Mothership Core is really nice for greedy builds but otherwise I'm not the biggest fan of the Oracle or the Tempest. I think I'm going to continue to play against Terran in the same way I did in WoL, but maybe add in tempests out of necessity vs protoss and zerg.

Then again I can just keep immortal-sentrying and phoenix allining

bamhand
Apr 15, 2010


Vogue posted:

I didn't play Heart of the Swarm beta at all so I'm going to be behind the curve for a bit. The Mothership Core is really nice for greedy builds but otherwise I'm not the biggest fan of the Oracle or the Tempest. I think I'm going to continue to play against Terran in the same way I did in WoL, but maybe add in tempests out of necessity vs protoss and zerg.

Then again I can just keep immortal-sentrying and phoenix allining

I think photon overcharge and buffed void rays might make that all in a bit tougher to pull off.

Streebs
Dec 6, 2003

RIP

Zephro posted:

A couple of questions:

1) Is there any indication that Stargate play might be viable against Terran bio yet? I can't see how it would be except for some one or two-base all-ins featuring the new void ray charge.

2) Is there any reason to expect T to try mech against Toss? It seems like the net result of adding Tempests, stronger Void Rays and making it more worthwhile to pump phoenixes means that, if anything, it's got even harder to play mech against Protoss.

So I guess that leads to a third question - is there any reason to think PvT in HOTS is going to differ from WoL in anything more than a superficial way? Or is it still going to be bio against gateway + colossus and/or templar?

edit: also there's a mistake in the OP - Phoenix default range is now 5, so with Crystals it's 7 rather than 6.

1) In zeez chat Jimmeh recently suggested gateway units, high templar and 5-6 tempests as being a strong unit comp vs Terran. Open with high templar and when you would normally get colossus, instead go for tempests. Then slow push across the map, if the Terran tries to rush in and kill your tempests you can storm them. And if ghosts try to EMP the tempests will pick them off. Sounds like a pretty strong strategy, I will be trying it when the game is live.

Oracle openings vs Terran worked pretty well for me but my opponents in beta were crappy. I also think Phoenixes could be effective for drop defense and map control.

2) Yes Protoss gets tempests and stronger void rays but Terran got hellbats, widow mines and thors that have better single target air damage. Demuslim just released this replay analysis where he goes mech vs Huk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHi-VN8y5Pw
Huk does not play well in that game but mech seems pretty powerful.

3) Right now the matchup looks similar but I think as it evolves things will change.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...


Streebs posted:

1) In zeez chat Jimmeh recently suggested gateway units, high templar and 5-6 tempests as being a strong unit comp vs Terran. Open with high templar and when you would normally get colossus, instead go for tempests. Then slow push across the map, if the Terran tries to rush in and kill your tempests you can storm them. And if ghosts try to EMP the tempests will pick them off. Sounds like a pretty strong strategy, I will be trying it when the game is live.
Hmm, that's an interesting idea, thanks. Not sure how viable the Tempests will be to defend HTs though since they fire so slowly, but it sounds like it could be cool.

I guess the thing with Stargate is it feels quite constricted because it lacks AoE. So instead of going gateway and then robo or templar tech to provide the AOE, you open Stargate, bulk up with some gateway units to protect your air from marines and then - what? Try to support yet another tech path in the shape of HTs or Colossi? Seems to me you'll stretch your resources super thin that way...

quote:

Oracle openings vs Terran worked pretty well for me but my opponents in beta were crappy. I also think Phoenixes could be effective for drop defense and map control.

2) Yes Protoss gets tempests and stronger void rays but Terran got hellbats, widow mines and thors that have better single target air damage. Demuslim just released this replay analysis where he goes mech vs Huk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHi-VN8y5Pw
Huk does not play well in that game but mech seems pretty powerful.

3) Right now the matchup looks similar but I think as it evolves things will change.
I'll take a look at the replay I get home, thanks

cheesetriangles
Jan 5, 2011



I started playing Starcraft 2 pretty much today and am still trying to pick a race. I played a couple matches as protoss and did terrible in the first and sorta okay in the second but still lost. I had an economic advantage but couldn't figure out how to capitalize on it. It was PvP where I was on 2 bases and he was only on one. He was stalker/sentry/zealot where my army was mainly zealot/a few sentries/stalkers and like 3-4 colossus. I should have had a much bigger army than I did because I didn't build enough gateways to pump out gateway units. I am not sure what I should have done army composition wise. I was sitting on enough economy to really tech into anything. I also ran into problems when I switched my gateways to warpgates. I had them all selected on one group but with the gateways where I could select the group and just hit the hotkeys one after another to get them all making a unit with the warpgates I would have to hit the group hotkey hit the unit hotkey click and then reclick the group hotkey and repeat. Would holding shift down when clicking make it not deselect it?

What should a protoss do to counter that kind of protoss army?

Eejit
Mar 6, 2007

Swiss Army Cockatoo
Cacatua multitoolii


cheesetriangles posted:

I started playing Starcraft 2 pretty much today and am still trying to pick a race. I played a couple matches as protoss and did terrible in the first and sorta okay in the second but still lost. I had an economic advantage but couldn't figure out how to capitalize on it. It was PvP where I was on 2 bases and he was only on one. He was stalker/sentry/zealot where my army was mainly zealot/a few sentries/stalkers and like 3-4 colossus. I should have had a much bigger army than I did because I didn't build enough gateways to pump out gateway units. I am not sure what I should have done army composition wise. I was sitting on enough economy to really tech into anything. I also ran into problems when I switched my gateways to warpgates. I had them all selected on one group but with the gateways where I could select the group and just hit the hotkeys one after another to get them all making a unit with the warpgates I would have to hit the group hotkey hit the unit hotkey click and then reclick the group hotkey and repeat. Would holding shift down when clicking make it not deselect it?

What should a protoss do to counter that kind of protoss army?

You can shift click to warp in as much stuff as you want off your warpgate hotkey. Also get warpgate asap for all builds.

I'm trying to figure out what you're saying, but colossus are definitely a good solution to his army. You might have needed to throw in some stalkers into your comp as that helps your zealots from being kited. Did he have upgrades? Did you? Did you get thermal lance on your colo?
Thermal lance lets you melt stalkers without worrying about them shooting back at your colo. It's another upgrade you generally want to get asap. Also were your minerals and geysers saturated?

Honestly best way to get help would to be to post the replay.

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Streebs
Dec 6, 2003

RIP

cheesetriangles posted:

I started playing Starcraft 2 pretty much today and am still trying to pick a race. I played a couple matches as protoss and did terrible in the first and sorta okay in the second but still lost. I had an economic advantage but couldn't figure out how to capitalize on it. It was PvP where I was on 2 bases and he was only on one. He was stalker/sentry/zealot where my army was mainly zealot/a few sentries/stalkers and like 3-4 colossus. I should have had a much bigger army than I did because I didn't build enough gateways to pump out gateway units. I am not sure what I should have done army composition wise. I was sitting on enough economy to really tech into anything. I also ran into problems when I switched my gateways to warpgates. I had them all selected on one group but with the gateways where I could select the group and just hit the hotkeys one after another to get them all making a unit with the warpgates I would have to hit the group hotkey hit the unit hotkey click and then reclick the group hotkey and repeat. Would holding shift down when clicking make it not deselect it?

What should a protoss do to counter that kind of protoss army?

Yeah definitely colossus will counter an army comprised of solely gateway units (zealot/stalker/sentry). But if the other player just has too much stuff it doesn't matter how efficient your units will be because he'll just overrun you. If you are at 100 supply and he's maxed out it doesn't matter what units you built, you are going to probably lose. For warpgates, w is automatically hotkeyed to all your warpgates, so if you hit w you will have all warpgates selected. To build units you hit the unit hotkey, click a warp in area, etc. So to warp in a bunch of zealots i would hit w, then z click, z click, etc. When you get used to this you can do it very quickly. Other protoss players also like to hotkey their warpgates to something other than w but I find w works just fine.

Seeing as you're a new player, you might want to check out the OP for the newbie thread here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3334235 there is some good advice in there. Just remember, probes and pylons. You should always 100% of the time be making a probe in every nexus and you should always be checking your supply and building a pylon if you are close to being supply blocked. If you never miss a probe and never get supply blocked you will win most of your games.

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