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ProFootballGuy
Nov 6, 2012

by angerbot

econdroidbot posted:

I appreciate your opinion, but I'd like to play devil's advocate. Isn't it naive to think that individual contributors will have some sort of overwhelming intrinsic motivation beyond compensation? Rynes et al reported that candidates regularly under-report the importance of salary when queried, but monetary incentives produce the largest and most reliable increases in job performance. Put another way, the desire for more money (at the manager level) is going to produce the highest performing management candidates (on average).

Certainly it is a wonderful thing to want to move into management for the "right" reason such as personal growth or following a calling, but dismissing someone because they want more money strikes me as being insincere.

Money, power, and status. Most if not all the other reasons are bullshit designed to tactfully acquire those things. But, bullshit is a *huge* part of organizational politics.

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Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"
I've posted similar questions before in the IT thread but this seems more appropriate for my question:

I'm currently a business systems analyst, ~ 3 years out of school on my second job, been working for 2.5 years. The company I work for is cool, fairly flexible hours/schedule, I like the people, management is good to great (as far as I can tell) and I think we have an exciting product in a boring industry.

The problem is that at heart I am not an analyst. I am a communicator consensus builder extrovert kind of guy. Sometimes, I come home from work really sad because I've had 3 conversations in 9 hours and feel so lonely despite sitting in a room full of people.

When I graduated, the economy was bad but I managed to grab a job that was more technically oriented than I was really looking for because it was what I could get. I am pretty sure I am doing a good job here, my boss complimented my attention to detail and analytic ability and moved me over to another team that needed heavy excel monkeying. They had two temps quit or get dropped and one full time guy walk because he couldn't/wouldn't handle the work so I knew they were worried. I told him I'd do it because I'm a team guy and happy to put my skills where they're needed but did mention its not really where I want to be longterm. Its kind of like that SEAL thing, I jumped into paint scraping because someones got to do it.

My problem is that I'm afraid I'm losing control of my career narrative and will end up on a path I don't want to be on, just because I can do things apparently many others can't or won't. I don't want to leave my current company and don't mind digging the ditches for a while but I don't want to be "the data guy" my whole life.

econdroidbot
Mar 1, 2008

AS USELESS AS A HAT FULL OF BUSTED ASSHOLES

ProFootballGuy posted:

Money, power, and status. Most if not all the other reasons are bullshit designed to tactfully acquire those things. But, bullshit is a *huge* part of organizational politics.

I hear what you're saying and agree, but only to an extent. The ability to get along is integral to long term career success. Still, it seems sanctimonious for someone already at the management level to require some sort of drive for non-monetary self-actualization to be considered for a management position.

"Well when I made the jump to management I did it for the RIGHT reasons, like LOYALTY and DRIVING SHAREHOLDER VALUE and LEADERSHIP and PROBLEM SOLVING and THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX and SHIFTING THE PARADIGM. It just so happens that it came with additional money. In other news, got mine."

But I think you're absolutely right about being able to put things tactfully, whether going for a raise, or turning down work, or any of the other thousands of things that come up in business and need a delicate touch.

ProFootballGuy
Nov 6, 2012

by angerbot

econdroidbot posted:

I hear what you're saying and agree, but only to an extent. The ability to get along is integral to long term career success. Still, it seems sanctimonious for someone already at the management level to require some sort of drive for non-monetary self-actualization to be considered for a management position.

"Well when I made the jump to management I did it for the RIGHT reasons, like LOYALTY and DRIVING SHAREHOLDER VALUE and LEADERSHIP and PROBLEM SOLVING and THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX and SHIFTING THE PARADIGM. It just so happens that it came with additional money. In other news, got mine."

But I think you're absolutely right about being able to put things tactfully, whether going for a raise, or turning down work, or any of the other thousands of things that come up in business and need a delicate touch.
It's just one of those game-playing hoops, sanctimonious or not. When you're pitching to a client, you don't tell them you want their business because of the big fat commission check that'll send you on a vacation to Hawaii. Even though that's the real reason.

Initio
Oct 29, 2007
!

ProFootballGuy posted:

Money, power, and status. Most if not all the other reasons are bullshit designed to tactfully acquire those things. But, bullshit is a *huge* part of organizational politics.


It doesn't even need to be bullshit. Ofcourse everyone wants money as a part of the promotion. The question someone should be trying to answer is why they want a particular position within the organization rather than some other one which may offer identical monetary benefits.

ProFootballGuy
Nov 6, 2012

by angerbot

Initio posted:

It doesn't even need to be bullshit. Ofcourse everyone wants money as a part of the promotion. The question someone should be trying to answer is why they want a particular position within the organization rather than some other one which may offer identical monetary benefits.

It will be bullshit to some degree. "I've got a burning passion for endless middle management paperwork and status update meetings!"

Everyone understands it's about self-advancement, it's just that you have to sell yourself and bring some value to the table as to why you're the biggest and most badass person for the job.

Paradoxically, that usually does not mean being the hardest working, most dependable guy at your job. You don't want to be irreplacable as a worker bee or fit *too* comfortably in your niche. Soft skills and a dynamic personality come into play majorly here.

kells
Mar 19, 2009
I've been out of school for two years ("IT" degree) and am currently in my third tech support job. I don't enjoy tech support at all and can only stomach it for 6-8 months until I'm searching for something new. Problem is, the only jobs I am qualified to get are tech support jobs.

Although I got an IT degree (from a no-name community college in NZ) I don't have any skills - can't program, no hardware/networking skills, and to be honest I'm not really interested in working in IT anyway.

I'm approaching the 7-month mark in my current job and am getting more and more frustrated with it. The work I'm doing is not interesting or difficult and the customers I support are rude and lazy (yeah yeah I know, all customers are). I do well at my job and have gone above and beyond the job description by writing technical documentation and user manuals as well as helping a bit with other projects, but I still don't find any of the work I do particularly interesting.

I've been toying with the idea of asking to go part time. I feel like my burn-out will be delayed if I'm not working all day every day, and I'd have more time to work on what I want to do - I really want to sell cupcakes!

My job has been slowly upping my workload (the sys admin used to do support as well) and it looks like they're planning on having me support 300+ clients alone - it's not a high volume job so I can handle it, but not on part time hours. If they hired someone else full-time and let me move to part-time I think it would be fine, but it's a tiny company and I don't know if they even have the money to pay an extra part-time wage let alone if they'd be open to it.

Is it stupid to want a part time job for purely personal reasons rather than something like being sick/studying/having a baby? I've never really had any desire for a high-flying career and as long as I can pay my bills I reckon having more free time will make me much happier. Plus I'd have the time to work on a cupcake side-venture!

How would I present the idea of me working part time to my boss without sounding like some lazy person who wants to cost the company money?

Bonus cupcake pix:

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

kells posted:

...honest I'm not really interested in working in IT anyway.

Bonus cupcake pix:


This may be a totally stupid question, but how/why did you get an IT degree if you have no interest in working in IT?

It is no surprise that you don't like your job and want to bounce around if you are in a field that you dislike in general. And for the sake of you and everyone around you don't just delay the burnout by stretching it into a longer period of time.

What you need is a clear plan and path to exit IT. Keep your current job for the time being, keep paying the bills, and focus your energy on getting out. Worse to be out of a job and have no plan and no money.

If you want to do baking full time, are there entry level bakery jobs that you can get without some kind of culinary school background? Goons with Chickencheese has an industry thread that might be right up your alley.

Regarding Kells Kupcakes: Beware, many states have cottage industry laws and regulations especially where food is involved. My mom in her 'retirement' is trying to start a from home bakery and the classes and certifications required to do this above board (California) is mind boggling. She actually took a part time job at a commercial bakery to help offset cost and gain experience in addition to some cheap community college type classes.
Sure, you can fly under the radar for a time but if you want it to be your sole source of income eventually you will have to go beyond bakery bootlegger.

kells
Mar 19, 2009

Ultimate Mango posted:

This may be a totally stupid question, but how/why did you get an IT degree if you have no interest in working in IT?

My mother pushed her regrets re: not having a degree onto me. I was 17 and not ready to be kicked out so I picked IT 'cause hey I like using computers and it was only 3 years instead of 4.

quote:

What you need is a clear plan and path to exit IT. Keep your current job for the time being, keep paying the bills, and focus your energy on getting out. Worse to be out of a job and have no plan and no money.

If you want to do baking full time, are there entry level bakery jobs that you can get without some kind of culinary school background? Goons with Chickencheese has an industry thread that might be right up your alley.

I do worry that even if I move into baking I'll end up burned out on that too, but it's probably worth a try right? I do enjoy baking and love it when people like what I've created.

quote:

Regarding Kells Kupcakes: Beware, many states have cottage industry laws and regulations especially where food is involved.

I live in Australia (NSW) and from what I've found so far I just need to register my kitchen to be able to sell baked goods to the public. Will be working on that once we move houses!

diremonk
Jun 17, 2008

I've been looking for a thread like this because I need some advice. Apologies in advance if this is a bit long winded or confusing.

I'm a engineer at a semi-small tv station in central CA. This year will be my 16th in the industry (6 in news, 10 as a engineer/master control operator). For a while I've been toying with the idea of going back to school and either finishing my degree in Communications or starting over with one in computer security. But over the last couple of months I started to realize that I probably should focus on the field I'm in.

Last year, my semi-supervisor left to go to another station and I got to pick up the slack until a new person was hired. Now that he is here, I'm still the guy that my boss and the stations GM go to when things need to get done. The new guy ... he is kind of my assistant as opposed to co-worker, which is odd since he went to school for this kind of thing and I haven't. All of my knowledge is from on the job training.

I'm slowly starting to get a handle on my expanded responsibilities by being proactive in figuring out stuff, trying new things, and attempting to have some sort of organization. My boss has noticed and a couple weeks ago he brought up the idea that he might have me start doing the work schedules for our department. That along with me taking over as the departments shop steward means that I'll be the second person in line responsibility wise. I'm thinking that if all that happens and I'm still here in a year or so I'm going to ask for a title/wage bump.

It's not just my boss that has noticed either. I'm going to a conference in April (NAB) that my boss is also going to. The stations GM didn't feel comfortable with both of us being gone at the same time so for a day or two I wasn't allowed to go. Things are all sorted now, but it was kind of surprising that other people value my experience.

But I don't think I want to be here anymore. I like my coworkers, the environment is pretty good, I'm paid crazy good compared to the rest of the station. The issue is that I'm either going to hit or have hit the ceiling at the station/company. Barring anything major, my boss is never going to leave and I doubt that they would even consider promoting me into his spot.

So at this conference I'm going to be trying to make connections like crazy. I'm going to shadow my friend who is also going and try to make some friends with his new company. I don't think anything will come out of the trip but you never know. I'm also starting to use LinkedIn as well but I'm still working on getting that cleaned up.

At this point I'm thinking that eventually I'll move up to management at another station, but the idea is kind of terrifying to me. I've never really supervised anyone. I've trained half the people in my department but actually being in charge of a department is kind of crazy to me. But I don't want to be like some people I know in the business that have been at the same station for 25 years. The idea of working in the same room for that long seems depressing.

I guess what I'm wanting to know is how do I get comfortable managing people? Should I be taking some business courses at the community college to kind of prep myself for doing budgets? Should I talk to my boss about taking on even more responsibilities?

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

diremonk: do you do anything outside of work that involves any kind of leadership?

I have a guy on my team who has never had a management position at work but does all kinds of things where he is absolutely a leader and does management like tasks outside of work (in his case cub scouts related).

You can probably get exposure to the management tasks on the job as a part of your development, but leadership can totally be learned and done outside of work.

diremonk
Jun 17, 2008

Sorry it took a couple days to get back to you. I really don't do much outside of work that involves any kind of leadership, unless being on my HOA board counts. The semi-funny thing is that I used to be a decent leader, about ten years ago I was a newscast director. I was the person that was responsible for the entire newscast while it was on air.

As for now, other being the person that has shift trained about half the people in my department and kind of being the semi on-call person that help people with various problems I really don't have my leadership responsibilities anymore.But I have been told by several people that they come to me when things need to get done rather than my boss.

root of all eval
Dec 28, 2002

I posted this in a dead thread so I am going to cross post. It's actually more relevant here.

A co-worker and I (Web Designer and Web Developer) are considering starting freelance work together and eventually starting a partnership and operating under a business title. It's become clear that our employer acts more or less as a business agent, and that we can handle the production pipeline from start to finish. Our B2B billable rates are nearly 3 times our actual hourly earnings, so there seems to be a fair bit of growth potential in our earnings. We are also both involved in client meetings and communication in our current capacity

Background:
We both have multiple years of experience. I am manager of a small interactive department. He is graphic designer with what I find to be a really solid grasp on web concepts specifically. In our current work capacity we are the respective primary producers of content in each area. Multiple websites and assets created through our current employer are award winning.

Our non-compete is really worded strongly in our favor. We work for a small business, and as such they are not interested in blocking us from doing outside work. The only requirement is that we cannot work with past or existing clients as an outside contractor for 2 years after termination.

I'd like to lay out our initial plan and open up some dialog on pros and cons of the plan.

As individual freelancers we have a company policy allowing us to use our work in personal portfolios. We obviously can't operate as a joint venture and show off our work through our current employer, but the capacity is there to reference work specifically as individuals.

We'd like to begin by revamping our personal portfolio sites to include our latest work. From there we would like to find smaller projects as individuals, and hire each-other as subcontractors. After 6-8 sites have been completed, we would like to create our joint entity, using those latest projects as our business portfolio. The legal/moral line I am having trouble with conceptually is how honest I should be about whom I plan to subcontract to, and what our work relationship is. Our initial portfolios will be roughly the same regardless. I feel it adds credibility, but it seems off limits.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Our next step is finding gigs and beginning marketing. Our local relevance in a city of 4 million will be non-existent. With that in mind I anticipate a lot of knocking on doors and phone calls to small businesses. We plan to offer competitive rates for our initial projects. It seems web is a unique kind of opportunity to cold-call businesses. Without much research we can easily compile lists of businesses in need of new websites, or at least re-designs. That said, I've also wondered about possibly setting up referral relationships with other individual freelancers. I know people that can do design work, but aren't focused in web. I would hope that by offering commissions we might be able to get some passive work from others that aren't up to certain tasks they are requested to do at times.

Has anyone else wandered down this path before?

root of all eval fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Mar 3, 2013

Schlabbalabba
May 10, 2004

I'm a semen, I mean Seaman, I haven't been a semen for 20 years.
Good thread! I am in this boggle myself. I am in the Navy and am trying to look at what to do with life post-Navy. I have been looking into being an electrician apprentice, but I don't know if I can support a wife and baby on an apprentice's wages. Other ideas I have been tossing around are education, law enforcement, and becoming a tech rep for a company that fixes the subs I was working on (although those jobs might start disappearing).

Any insight from the goon nation?

DukAmok
Sep 21, 2006

Using drugs will kill. So be for real.

DukAmok posted:

I would love to do that! I just don't know if it exists here. I started that conversation with my director when it came time for annual reviews, but she seemed to think that the only real advancement path was People Management. Given the big company HR, I'd believe it. Salary bands, maximum raises, these seem to be directly tied to job titles. I totally feel empowered and most definitely have a leadership role already, but it seems to me the only way to be compensated commensurately is through that title bump to Manager. If you can think of a better way to approach it I'm all ears, but so far my suggestions of creating new titles and such have been rebuffed by HR.

Just thought I'd update to inject some positivity in the thread. Got my promotion to Manager! Duties and responsibilities are essentially unchanged, but now if down the road I need to hire some people to help I can do so. For now though, it's purely a leadership style raise, which was precisely what I was going for.

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

DukAmok posted:

Just thought I'd update to inject some positivity in the thread. Got my promotion to Manager! Duties and responsibilities are essentially unchanged, but now if down the road I need to hire some people to help I can do so. For now though, it's purely a leadership style raise, which was precisely what I was going for.

Fantastic news! Leadership and Management should go hand in hand and it is heartwarming to see your employer gets it.

My personal situation is also looking up. There was a terrible middle manager where I work whose last day was yesterday. Several excellent employees quit because of this guy and he was no leader. With him gone more senior leadership can make some much needed changes and things should be looking up. Also I am not going to need to find another job but instead can enhance my leadership position here.

themongol
Apr 30, 2006
Let us celebrate our agreement with the adding of chocolate to milk.
Anyone has any recommendations for business/professional development books? The other day my boss asked me to send a wide reaching email internally to showcase a recent win we got, and she quoted the Art of War (business version of it) that said to 'announce your victories early and loudly'. I'm interested in other books that have helped people grow as a middle range professional.

I can think of the typically personal development books like Napoleon Hill, Carnegie and Tony Robbins etc... But anything specific to business?

Thanks!

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I'm a recent college graduate with a BS in Biomedical Engineering. BME-specific jobs seem to require grad degrees, which I don't have. I have experience in biomechanical statistical analysis (breaking chicken bones, getting their structural properties, programming in MATLAB, chartz n graffz, etc.), biomaterials (making medical devices and the like), and medical imaging (image analysis and processing, programming in automation of image processing). My resume is here.

What kind of job would be best for me? I've been having trouble finding jobs that I qualify for.

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

themongol posted:

Anyone has any recommendations for business/professional development books? The other day my boss asked me to send a wide reaching email internally to showcase a recent win we got, and she quoted the Art of War (business version of it) that said to 'announce your victories early and loudly'. I'm interested in other books that have helped people grow as a middle range professional.

I can think of the typically personal development books like Napoleon Hill, Carnegie and Tony Robbins etc... But anything specific to business?

Thanks!

First Break All the Rules is excellent. Kind of bridges the gap between behaviors and truly achieving an effective workplace.
Execution, Drive are good. Money ball may have been made into a movie but is very much a business book. Carnegie is great so don't discount that. I am just into Start with Why but it is promising.

But really start with First Break All the Rules. Then post a more specific request here. I have read a ton of great books but most of them are more situational (with titles like Toxic Workplace) so it is kind of hard to recommend them to everyone.

Any managers in here need to read to take an hour and read One Minute Manager. Then go real First Break All the Rules and implement the Measuring Stick with your team. It works.

sim
Sep 24, 2003

BossRighteous posted:

A co-worker and I (Web Designer and Web Developer) are considering starting freelance work together and eventually starting a partnership and operating under a business title.

...

We'd like to begin by revamping our personal portfolio sites to include our latest work. From there we would like to find smaller projects as individuals, and hire each-other as subcontractors... The legal/moral line I am having trouble with conceptually is how honest I should be about whom I plan to subcontract to, and what our work relationship is...

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Our next step is finding gigs and beginning marketing. Our local relevance in a city of 4 million will be non-existent. With that in mind I anticipate a lot of knocking on doors and phone calls to small businesses. We plan to offer competitive rates for our initial projects. It seems web is a unique kind of opportunity to cold-call businesses. Without much research we can easily compile lists of businesses in need of new websites, or at least re-designs. That said, I've also wondered about possibly setting up referral relationships with other individual freelancers. I know people that can do design work, but aren't focused in web. I would hope that by offering commissions we might be able to get some passive work from others that aren't up to certain tasks they are requested to do at times.

Has anyone else wandered down this path before?

I've wandered down this path, on and off, for over six years. I've hired freelancers (both for my employer and myself) and I've also taken Ramit Sethi's Earn1K course, so I feel qualified to speak on this.

I think it's perfectly fine to include the work you've done for your current employer in your personal portfolio, especially if you reference that you did the work there and point out which parts you did specifically. Also, don't worry about the subcontracting stuff, because almost no one cares who does the work as long as they feel like they received good value for their money. You can run a successful business doing nothing but subcontracting (which as you noted, is basically what your employer is doing).

That being said, my personal experience is that all of that stuff is essentially irrelevant, until you have multiple clients. As long as you can provide a few relevant examples of your work, that's all the portfolio you need. So forget about portfolios and business licenses and start trying to find your first client.

Going "door to door" is really tough. Those small businesses that you think need new websites, have lovely websites for a reason. Either they don't have the budget, or don't understand the value, or both. Your shiny portfolio isn't going to convince them. You're selling a new BMW to someone who's driving a 20 year old Civic. Objectively, the BMW is a better car, but they're sure as hell not going to pay for it. You need to find clients who understand the value you're providing and are willing and able to pay for it.

Instead, I suggest you reach out to everyone you know and tell them you're a web design/development expert looking for projects. Feel free to reach out to other freelancers as well and let them know you will pay a commission (if you're serious about that). Apply for some projects on oDesk, Elance, Craigslist, etc. Do this today. Don't spend weeks building up your portfolio, marketing, and looking into business licenses.

Here's some other freelance sites that are less lovely than oDesk, but also less populated:
The best way to start freelancing is to get your first client, do a good job, and then ask for a referral. Repeat with the next client. When you have enough income to warrant paying taxes, start looking into how a business license can benefit you. When you have enough of your own work to fill a portfolio and you have some downtime between projects, start building that up.

Here's some more advice on finding clients, from Mr. Sethi: http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/finding-clients/.

root of all eval
Dec 28, 2002

I appreciate the advice!

I too am in the Just Do It mentality, but my possible partner is dragging his feet a bit.

That brings me to another point of consideration I have been having: Whether to start a partnership or simply subcontract.

The more I think about it, binding myself to one designer has some benefits for long term marketability, but a lot of possible negative side effects in the short & long term. It may be cleaner to just secure my own projects and subcontract to whomever fits my needs at that time. It would most likely be him the majority of the time, but the concept of small business ownership being split so ambiguously between two people is a bit sketchy the more I think about it.

From the sound of it I would be the one securing the most work, and my skills have a higher market value realistically. I am strong willed and outspoken at times and perceived injustice in our compensation/ownership split could be a big personal hurdle for me. Knowing you are a dick is the first step in not being a dick I guess.

I think I will just focus on trying to secure actual jobs instead of trying so hard to mold around a long-term partnership goal. I've been itching to jump in but his insistence on making killer portfolio sites has already dragged us down a bit. Funny how easy it is to make someone else a website, and how hard it is to make your own! I already have 5-6 possible projects I could start trying to push along.

Would you personally recommend the linked Earn1k course? I haven't heard of it until now.

sim
Sep 24, 2003

It definitely sounds like you should do some actual freelance work together before getting legally tied together. You know, date before you marry. If your coworker is frustrating you now, imagine how bad it will be when you're actually dependent on him to get paid.

I highly recommend Earn1k. It gives you the all the tools for finding the right clients and crafting a message that convinces them of your worth. It's expensive, but if you actually use it you will easily earn that back in a month or two.

Crazyweasel
Oct 29, 2006
lazy

ProFootballGuy posted:

Paradoxically, that usually does not mean being the hardest working, most dependable guy at your job. You don't want to be irreplacable as a worker bee or fit *too* comfortably in your niche. Soft skills and a dynamic personality come into play majorly here.

Bahaha oh boy am I feeling the burn of this now and feel foolish for my comments earlier.

7 months ago I went back to my previous company and made it explicitly clear I wanted to advance into either role A(Jr. Systems engineer) or role B(test manager), I was told both were feasible goals. So I worked my rear end off and everyone seemed to be endorsing me for these position.

In that 7 months I interviewed for A and was told to take 1.5 years of classes, worked as the manager alternate but was not selected to take the place of my boss who would move(in the end they kept him as manager after telling him he would be changing roles), found out A was being turned into an entry level position and was turned down once again. Why you may ask? Every single time I got passed over it was because I am too crucial in my current role(aka the best goddamn tester they have) and can't afford to move me. Except instead of working with me to develop a timeline everyone has said "we will keep you in mind". Hell its the same project and split time was even discussed and they still didnt bite.

For reference the manager I was going to replace had been a stopgap manager for 9 months now, being told every 3 months "you only have to do this for 3 more months, we will keep you in mind", and has seen two new hires fill the role(s) he intended to originally transition to. Now they tell him he will be stopgap manager for the rest of the year. What a joke. This is a 400 person company so its not like everyone is handcuffed.

I bet they have me train the new hire too, what a punch in the gut. Remember folks you can't fix a poo poo company.

E: \/\/ Yeah have been since the manager fiasco. Being refused the first position after it was downgraded to more entry level is a nice cherry on the top my sundae of disappointment.

Crazyweasel fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Mar 13, 2013

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"
Why do you still work there? If you are excellent at your job and they're jerking you around, I hope you're at least actively looking for something else.

moon demon
Sep 11, 2001

of the moon, of the dream
So I posted this in the accounting thread as a bit of a rant, but it seems more apt for this thread:

chupacabraTERROR posted:

I'm about 6 months into my big4 tax job and I'm really not liking it. I have the kind if personality who likes to really get involved and have my work actually matter. In college I founded my own website startup and spent maybe 200 hours of my free time doing it. I think it was because I was running the show and I get addicted to things that I can get my hands around. The website hasn't gone anywhere yet, but it's given me a glimpse at what it's like to work somewhere other than big 4 tax.

I haven't even had a busy season yet and I'm not liking it. Being at the beck and call of the client 24-7 is exhausting. Essentially the job has no greater meaning that just doing task A within time constraint Y, repeat as necessary. I don't mind long hours, but I don't know how people stay up till 4am doing tax returns.

My coworker described it in a sports analogy ( I know, I know): public accounting (particularly tax) is like defense, you prevent poor tax decisions and file paperwork after the fact. I want to be involved in the offense where people are making decisions that impact tomorrow rather than yesterday. I guess I've got the startup bug, where I just want to work with a small team and make decisions that can help build something.

For what it's worth I went to a top school with a great GPA so grad school is on the table, but not for a few years. I also have 6 more months of work experience until I can get my CPA (which I already passed) so jumping ship is out of the question for the time being.

Please advise accounting goons I am having an identity crisis

Basically I want to get into management of a startup company. I have my own, but I need a paycheck in the short term. I've considered working for a VC firm here in LA, but I'm not sure they hire people without VC experience? Anyone have any thoughts?

Harry
Jun 13, 2003

I do solemnly swear that in the year 2015 I will theorycraft my wallet as well as my WoW
You don't like being at the beck and call of clients, but want to join a VC firm?

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

chupacabraTERROR posted:

Basically I want to get into management of a startup company. I have my own, but I need a paycheck in the short term. I've considered working for a VC firm here in LA, but I'm not sure they hire people without VC experience? Anyone have any thoughts?

If you want to get into management of a startup, go found or help found a startup! That is one of the best ways to get into VC in general. I have known several people who have made the transition, and it has always been from the relationships they have made with VCs (not necessarily the ones who invested with them either) as a part of a startup. This is also a pretty good read, but may be mostly what you already are working on...

The LA VC market is tough, but there. Might be easier for you to look up in the bay area for someone looking to expand or is just expanding down here.

What sort of industry was your website in? Perhaps there are other related avenues that would be more interesting than corporate tax? Alternatively put two years in corporate tax and actively work towards a transfer to consulting. If you like VC, big 4 consulting will get you a leg up but it is a longer play.

Anti_Social
Jan 1, 2007

My problem is you dancing all the time
Another lost analyst here.

I graduated with a degree in Economics, and picked up a job doing data analysis in automotive manufacturing for 3 1/2 years out of college (and hated my life at the company for 2 of them due to a chilly job market in the area, bad environment, etc). I got a job as a doing some data analysis for a health care company in finance a few months ago, and I love it.

I'm starting to think about what I want to do for my Masters and further job development. I have no problem with the IT/programming side of things, and pick up on that side of the job pretty easily. What I want to do, is be able to use data better - I guess more in a business analyst or business intelligence role. Does anyone have some good recommendations on some BI self-study materials, some suggestions on what to think about with masters programs? It just seems like there's so much out there, I don't know where to start.

moon demon
Sep 11, 2001

of the moon, of the dream

Harry posted:

You don't like being at the beck and call of clients, but want to join a VC firm?

I know that logic is pretty flawed, but my reasoning is this: doing client service at either firm is really not my final goal, but if I have to choose, I'd rather be learning about how companies are run and how VC values companies than just filling out tax returns. It seems like what I really want to do is mostly for top MBA grads or genius (or lucky) startup founders. I really don't know all that much about what a VC entry-level analyst does, so anyone who has experience should fill me in!

Ultimate Mango posted:

If you want to get into management of a startup, go found or help found a startup! That is one of the best ways to get into VC in general. I have known several people who have made the transition, and it has always been from the relationships they have made with VCs (not necessarily the ones who invested with them either) as a part of a startup. This is also a pretty good read, but may be mostly what you already are working on...

The LA VC market is tough, but there. Might be easier for you to look up in the bay area for someone looking to expand or is just expanding down here.

What sort of industry was your website in? Perhaps there are other related avenues that would be more interesting than corporate tax? Alternatively put two years in corporate tax and actively work towards a transfer to consulting. If you like VC, big 4 consulting will get you a leg up but it is a longer play.

My startup is a website that helps college students find apartments. I've posted about it in BFC before, not sure where the post went. Anyway the link is https://www.aptologist.com. I'm working with the programmer to get the site to a point that we feel comfortable pushing it to college students. It's a side-job for myself and the programmer, so progress isn't as fast as I'd like. If we had the money, I'd do that full time in a heartbeat.

I have some connections in the bay so I may look into that in the future, I'm just tied to LA until my girlfriend graduates next summer. I've considered transferring into advisory, so that's probably something that I'll look into.

Anyone with any VC analyst experience should post and tell me I'm insane!

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

chupacabraTERROR posted:

Anyone with any VC analyst experience should post and tell me I'm insane!

Make no bones about it, you are insane. But so are many VCs.

Seems like you are at a place in life when you can be entrepreneurial so go for it, but try not to do something that really hurts long term. Big 4 ain't what it used to be but it still can be a massive career accelerator and provide another path to where you want to go.

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

Oops Double post, ninja for content

Anti_Social posted:

Another lost analyst here.

I graduated with a degree in Economics, and picked up a job doing data analysis in automotive manufacturing for 3 1/2 years out of college (and hated my life at the company for 2 of them due to a chilly job market in the area, bad environment, etc). I got a job as a doing some data analysis for a health care company in finance a few months ago, and I love it.

I'm starting to think about what I want to do for my Masters and further job development. I have no problem with the IT/programming side of things, and pick up on that side of the job pretty easily. What I want to do, is be able to use data better - I guess more in a business analyst or business intelligence role. Does anyone have some good recommendations on some BI self-study materials, some suggestions on what to think about with masters programs? It just seems like there's so much out there, I don't know where to start.

Think about an MBA program with an IT focus rather than some kind of Econ program. Big Data may be hot right right now but there is a lot of long term value in that space in my opinion. Take the kind of analysis that you love and couple it to larger scale business problems and you become the kind of person who writes their own ticket or makes bank in consulting.

Alternatively there are great Econ/IT intersects on the portfolio and investment side of IT. The CFO is becoming more critical to IT project governance and they need solid analysts.

moon demon
Sep 11, 2001

of the moon, of the dream

Ultimate Mango posted:

Make no bones about it, you are insane. But so are many VCs.

Seems like you are at a place in life when you can be entrepreneurial so go for it, but try not to do something that really hurts long term. Big 4 ain't what it used to be but it still can be a massive career accelerator and provide another path to where you want to go.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm going to try to stay as long as I can bear it, so probably 2 years. After that, I'll take my chances in the bay. By "doing something that really hurts long term" do you mean leaving tomorrow and joining a (funded) startup? Or do you mean something as drastic as moving back home and learning programming? I won't be doing either, but I'd at least consider the first option...

mcsuede
Dec 30, 2003

Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.
-Greta Garbo

Xguard86 posted:

I've posted similar questions before in the IT thread but this seems more appropriate for my question:

I'm currently a business systems analyst, ~ 3 years out of school on my second job, been working for 2.5 years. The company I work for is cool, fairly flexible hours/schedule, I like the people, management is good to great (as far as I can tell) and I think we have an exciting product in a boring industry.

The problem is that at heart I am not an analyst. I am a communicator consensus builder extrovert kind of guy. Sometimes, I come home from work really sad because I've had 3 conversations in 9 hours and feel so lonely despite sitting in a room full of people.

When I graduated, the economy was bad but I managed to grab a job that was more technically oriented than I was really looking for because it was what I could get. I am pretty sure I am doing a good job here, my boss complimented my attention to detail and analytic ability and moved me over to another team that needed heavy excel monkeying. They had two temps quit or get dropped and one full time guy walk because he couldn't/wouldn't handle the work so I knew they were worried. I told him I'd do it because I'm a team guy and happy to put my skills where they're needed but did mention its not really where I want to be longterm. Its kind of like that SEAL thing, I jumped into paint scraping because someones got to do it.

My problem is that I'm afraid I'm losing control of my career narrative and will end up on a path I don't want to be on, just because I can do things apparently many others can't or won't. I don't want to leave my current company and don't mind digging the ditches for a while but I don't want to be "the data guy" my whole life.

People who can do both talk and analytics are extremely valuable. Make your bosses aware of your feelings and if they don't move to guide you into those roles, consider finding a smaller agency that can really use that skillset.

cheese eats mouse
Jul 6, 2007

A real Portlander now
So the senior Web Developer in our company is leaving, which means I'll be taking over a lot of the front-end work and will be the sole front-end developer. I don't think they're going to hire anyone else to replace her/me and they'll probably be relying on our back-end guy to help out.

I'm underpaid for my position, but they hired me with basically very little front-end experience, but now that I'll be spear-heading everything I think I have room to ask for a significant raise when June comes around (we do salary reviews 2x a year in June and December). We're a small company of >50 people. I have goals of leading our coding practices to follow a dynamic path and to be more mobile friendly.

I'm pulling 32,000 right now. What would be a good raise amount? I was thinking around 35-36.

Also, I'm in the mid-West and a girl. People love to low-ball me it seems.

cheese eats mouse fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Mar 15, 2013

Theler
Aug 8, 2009

cheese eats mouse posted:

So the senior Web Developer in our company is leaving, which means I'll be taking over a lot of the front-end work and will be the sole front-end developer. I don't think they're going to hire anyone else to replace her/me and they'll probably be relying on our back-end guy to help out.

I'm underpaid for my position, but they hired me with basically very little front-end experience, but now that I'll be spear-heading everything I think I have room to ask for a significant raise when June comes around (we do salary reviews 2x a year in June and December). We're a small company of >50 people. I have goals of leading our coding practices to follow a dynamic path and to be more mobile friendly.

I'm pulling 32,000 right now. What would be a good raise amount? I was thinking around 35-36.

Also, I'm in the mid-West and a girl. People love to low-ball me it seems.

Unless the cost of living where you are at is insanely low, you are likely lowballing yourself. Depending on your experience, years with the company etc, At least 50-60k. If not more. Posting or looking at this thread for salary info can probably be a lot more helpful than my post. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3376083

DukAmok
Sep 21, 2006

Using drugs will kill. So be for real.

cheese eats mouse posted:

So the senior Web Developer in our company is leaving, which means I'll be taking over a lot of the front-end work and will be the sole front-end developer. I don't think they're going to hire anyone else to replace her/me and they'll probably be relying on our back-end guy to help out.

I'm underpaid for my position, but they hired me with basically very little front-end experience, but now that I'll be spear-heading everything I think I have room to ask for a significant raise when June comes around (we do salary reviews 2x a year in June and December). We're a small company of >50 people. I have goals of leading our coding practices to follow a dynamic path and to be more mobile friendly.

I'm pulling 32,000 right now. What would be a good raise amount? I was thinking around 35-36.

Also, I'm in the mid-West and a girl. People love to low-ball me it seems.

For a frontend developer job, they should probably close to double your current salary. However, it's highly unlikely they will double your salary. But ask for double anyway. Go in asking for ~$60k, bring some backup of salary surveys or whatever you can find that matches your new job description, but I wouldn't expect it to work. They'll probably hem and haw and end up offering you $35-40k, which you should take. Are you getting an updated title to reflect your new responsibilities? Push for that over monetary compensation, because you won't be planning on staying long.

Meanwhile, look for a new job using your new title, credentials, and responsibilities. When you get an offer and for whatever reason you've decided you still like this first job better, bring the offer to them and say you'd rather stay, they might offer more at this point. But conventional wisdom says that if you take this devil's deal you're on the short list to cut next, so you'll be looking for another gig soon enough anyway. Otherwise, just take the new gig and leave the old place with a smile and a wave.

Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

chupacabraTERROR posted:

Yeah, pretty much. I'm going to try to stay as long as I can bear it, so probably 2 years. After that, I'll take my chances in the bay. By "doing something that really hurts long term" do you mean leaving tomorrow and joining a (funded) startup? Or do you mean something as drastic as moving back home and learning programming? I won't be doing either, but I'd at least consider the first option...

Your head is in the right place. Don't bail prematurely on the big four gig and then don't be be of those guys who rides failing startup after failing startup into the ground. Having a successful startup can get you good VC contacts but you can get a bad reputation much more easily.

Another path would be to find an incubator or startup like group that happens to be part of a larger organization. I saw someone parlay growing a team in a tangent business under a parent company with 100,000+ employees and come out the top with a premier VC firm. Parent company folded the startup group but in the experience this junior exec got great contacts equivalent to a home run startup venture even though it eventually failed miserably (I was a part of the team and it was a hoot). Don't limit yourself in thinking, there can be great opportunities in the strangest of places.

I you really want to sell your metaphorical soul, investor activism is heating up and you could likely get into a firm with VC like mentality just from an M&A activity perspective rather than pure startup.

Cicero
Dec 17, 2003

Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

cheese eats mouse posted:

So the senior Web Developer in our company is leaving, which means I'll be taking over a lot of the front-end work and will be the sole front-end developer. I don't think they're going to hire anyone else to replace her/me and they'll probably be relying on our back-end guy to help out.

I'm underpaid for my position, but they hired me with basically very little front-end experience, but now that I'll be spear-heading everything I think I have room to ask for a significant raise when June comes around (we do salary reviews 2x a year in June and December). We're a small company of >50 people. I have goals of leading our coding practices to follow a dynamic path and to be more mobile friendly.

I'm pulling 32,000 right now. What would be a good raise amount? I was thinking around 35-36.

Also, I'm in the mid-West and a girl. People love to low-ball me it seems.
Read this article about salary negotiation for engineers. It's aimed at negotiating salaries for when you're taking a new job, but I think it can help with mindset.

Also while the mid-west is obviously a lot cheaper than the coasts, that's still absurdly low for an experienced developer. How many years of experience do you have? If you have at least a couple, I'd say like 45k minimum would be a fair starting point. Definitely look around at glassdoor, and if they don't offer you enough, go somewhere else.

And you're right, being a girl probably means that you'll get offered less, because they know/think they can get away with it (because girls don't demand as much money).

It sounds like you're in a pretty good position to negotiate, though. But don't just say, "gimme more money or I'm out and you're screwed" (even though that's kind of the subtext), talk about the value you bring to the company: "I worked on X, X brought in Y additional dollars, so giving me a raise of Y/10 is practically a pittance (ok maybe don't use that exact word)."

edit: Are you friends with the senior developer at all? More friends with him than he is with management? If so, while outright asking for his currently salary would be too direct, you could try asking him what kind of salary he thinks you ought to have since you'll be taking over his responsibilities. That might give you some insight.

Cicero fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Mar 16, 2013

moon demon
Sep 11, 2001

of the moon, of the dream

Ultimate Mango posted:

Your head is in the right place. Don't bail prematurely on the big four gig and then don't be be of those guys who rides failing startup after failing startup into the ground. Having a successful startup can get you good VC contacts but you can get a bad reputation much more easily.

Another path would be to find an incubator or startup like group that happens to be part of a larger organization. I saw someone parlay growing a team in a tangent business under a parent company with 100,000+ employees and come out the top with a premier VC firm. Parent company folded the startup group but in the experience this junior exec got great contacts equivalent to a home run startup venture even though it eventually failed miserably (I was a part of the team and it was a hoot). Don't limit yourself in thinking, there can be great opportunities in the strangest of places.

I you really want to sell your metaphorical soul, investor activism is heating up and you could likely get into a firm with VC like mentality just from an M&A activity perspective rather than pure startup.

Hm, I'm interested in this incubator/startup group that's part of a larger company. I've heard that Google has one of these, I think I will look into this! Do you know of any other major ones worth looking into?

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Ultimate Mango
Jan 18, 2005

chupacabraTERROR posted:

Hm, I'm interested in this incubator/startup group that's part of a larger company. I've heard that Google has one of these, I think I will look into this! Do you know of any other major ones worth looking into?

GoogleX is a thing, that is for sure. Jobs at Google are hard to come by. Google X, fuggedaboutit. Most tend to be more focused and specific and opportunistic rather than wholesale incubators. Maybe a large energy company sees that wireless energy meters at home are a thing and starts a group to develop a long range wireless protocol so they wouldn't have to use cellular networks, and does it more as a small team rather than a whole company. Possibilities are endless.

Very large companies in general dabble in some special project. Some have proper incubators that research will reveal (see Google X). Some have wholly owned subsidiaries that do this. In my case it was a large company's telecom arm getting into a related business but requiring very different focus and skills. We were always a part of the telecom business but operated independently as a startup in practice.

Your best bet will not be a large one but one you find through your network. I landed at mine because of my contacts. I literally got a call telling me to be at a certain hotel at a specific time and the guy who is now a VP found me and offered me a job. Felt very cloak and dagger. I might have been 21 at the time, if that.

My guess is that there are partners at your firm who can help you make these kinds of connections.

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