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Cicero posted:Read this article about salary negotiation for engineers. It's aimed at negotiating salaries for when you're taking a new job, but I think it can help with mindset. You're not going to get anywhere by salary-negotiating internally early in your career, because they see you as a kid. Grab whatever title you can get and leverage it to get a new job, where you'll be compensated fairly. Repeat this process until you've reached as high as you can go in your area. Save loving around with internal politics until you're established and have leverage to be bold with your demands, as you progress into the management/director/VP level. ProFootballGuy fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Mar 19, 2013 |
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Mar 19, 2013 01:03
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ProFootballGuy posted:Fantastic article on salary negotiations, especially if you're grossly underpaid already. Internal salary negotiations can limit you, so I'd highly recommend taking the promotion at whatever salary you can get, then leave the company. At your level, talking about projects you worked on and the value you brought internally is not a worthwhile exercise. Save that info for your interview with the new company, and you'll be able to double your salary. That was an incredible article, but my personal experience with internal salary negotiations early in my career was very different. I was able to double my salary twice in a couple of years by going in exactly with the value of the projects on worked and knowing my actual value in the market without having to leave. I suppose industry, location, and employer will make a huge difference in the outcome of these discussions.
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Mar 19, 2013 01:14
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Ultimate Mango posted:That was an incredible article, but my personal experience with internal salary negotiations early in my career was very different. I was able to double my salary twice in a couple of years by going in exactly with the value of the projects on worked and knowing my actual value in the market without having to leave. I mean, what was your starting salary? For a lot of professions that'd be you making six figures with 3-4 years of experience which sounds pretty high for most fields. I'm talking about normal places as well, not mega high cost of living cities where making 70k is getting by.
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Mar 19, 2013 01:22
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Ultimate Mango posted:That was an incredible article, but my personal experience with internal salary negotiations early in my career was very different. I was able to double my salary twice in a couple of years by going in exactly with the value of the projects on worked and knowing my actual value in the market without having to leave. Internally, if you negotiate you're rocking the boat/budget, and there's almost zero chance you'll leave if you don't get everything you asked for. Externally, if you've reached the point of negotiations they want you, and there's a fair bit of heartache on the hiring manager's part if they nickel and dime and lose you over $X in salary.
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Mar 19, 2013 01:28
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Harry posted:I mean, what was your starting salary? For a lot of professions that'd be you making six figures with 3-4 years of experience which sounds pretty high for most fields. I'm talking about normal places as well, not mega high cost of living cities where making 70k is getting by.
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Mar 19, 2013 01:35
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ProFootballGuy posted:In tech or engineering, if you're not making six figures you're doing something horribly wrong. Cool, that's two whole professions and their starting salaries are high enough that you aren't going to have it double twice in a 5 years except in extreme fringe cases.
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Mar 19, 2013 02:23
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Harry posted:Cool, that's two whole professions and their starting salaries are high enough that you aren't going to have it double twice in a 5 years except in extreme fringe cases.
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Mar 19, 2013 02:35
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Internal raises can be really tricky. Very early in my career I was lucky to work at two different companies who did this really well and responded to my negotiations to get me from underpaid badly to where I should have been. Yes I literally doubled my income twice in 2-3 years, and I ended up in the low six figure range as a result. This was a software/engineering/consulting type field in my early twenties. I was lucky but also worked the system described and got the money based on my demonstrable value to my employer. Things are still crazy in places like India where employees get trained in a technical skill and start rotating between employers every 6-12 months and getting 30-50% each move. I did not work for an India based company until later but it was amazing to see relatively young people playing this game and watching the employers benefit of offshore labor vanish in the process. Recently I have known people who have gotten a huge raise for their workplace and quit over it. Said 'giant' raise was 3%  His replacement was 20% more expensive. :facepalm: For you managers out there, how do you handle extreme salary discrepancies?
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Mar 19, 2013 04:53
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Your company has a big part to play in all this. My last place underpaid everyone by 25% or worse and had no idea of the true market value for their employees, so they would pretty much laugh off any raise requests because they honestly thought everyone was well compensated, until like 80% of the department left within 6 months.
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Mar 19, 2013 16:07
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Xguard86 posted:Your company has a big part to play in all this. My last place underpaid everyone by 25% or worse and had no idea of the true market value for their employees, so they would pretty much laugh off any raise requests because they honestly thought everyone was well compensated, until like 80% of the department left within 6 months. Yeah, "salary negotiation" is basically a shameful quasi-erotic fantasy at this point. I once asked for a raise to help cover my insurance, because 70 bucks out of every paycheck is going to destroy me. They basically told me to gently caress off, and that they didn't have enough money. "Try again next year". Then they bought several thousand dollars worth of equipment they didn't need, fired an employee that had been working there for 20 years, and then replaced him with some scraggly looking guy who worked for just above minimum wage. So I guess the moral of this story is never live in a right-to-work state and death to neo-liberal scum.
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Mar 19, 2013 17:59
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Cicero posted:Read this article about salary negotiation for engineers. It's aimed at negotiating salaries for when you're taking a new job, but I think it can help with mindset. It was another girl as a front-ender. I'm sure she left for way more cash since she went to a health care company. She was with us for 2 years exactly. Never got a chance to ask about her salary. She left quick. They have a "do not talk about salaries with co-workers" clause, which I know to be illegal. I haven't signed this years "handbook agreement". Theler posted:Unless the cost of living where you are at is insanely low, you are likely lowballing yourself. Depending on your experience, years with the company etc, At least 50-60k. If not more. Posting or looking at this thread for salary info can probably be a lot more helpful than my post. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3376083 I've been with them for 6 months now. I still work for my old job on a freelance basis for extra cash because I'm so underpaid. All in all I have 6 months as a front-end developer and 1 year as a designer. I've been working design internships since mid-2008. I graduated with my BFA in 2011 and post-grad was a graphic design intern for 6 months, worked in a t-shirt factory through the holidays and then I worked as a production artist/HTML e-mail developer for 8 months (for 30K lol). I know Adobe Creative Suite, HTML5, CSS3, some PHP and some JavaScript along with knowledge of video editing in Final Cut and motion graphics/animation. I know how to do a lot, but I prefer working in web development and interactive areas. I've talked to other people and the sentiment is that we're all underpaid (unless you're on the board). It makes sense since our CEO has an extra house in Florida while I'm putting my student loans into forbearance. We fired some people a few weeks ago (because we lost money the last 3 months) and we've had several others quit for new jobs. I am thinking about looking further, but the thing is I don't want to be seen as a job hopper. There's a place I know looking for someone with graphic design/development/motion graphics experience, which I have all of those check marks, and I know the guy due to being alums from the same program. Would it be bad to job hop so much?
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Mar 19, 2013 19:51
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cheese eats mouse posted:It was another girl as a front-ender. I'm sure she left for way more cash since she went to a health care company. She was with us for 2 years exactly. Never got a chance to ask about her salary. She left quick. The 'do not talk about salaries with co-workers' clause may not be legal or enforceable in the United States. I am not a lawyer but I have had some discussions with counsel at my work, and short strokes sound like there is recent case law that reaffirms employee's rights to talk about their salary with each other if they wish to do so, and that they cannot be punished in any way for talking about it. Your state, employer, mileage, and experience may vary, so don't go and do anything stupid. Cheese-eats-mouse, it sounds like you aren't in a great place, and could probably benefit from working for a better employer. I hope there are opportunities out there for you.
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Mar 20, 2013 00:20
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My wife is a dental hygienist in a midwestern city, making $27.50/hr. Her current employer seems to be stuck on 50 cent raises annually, which she isn't too happy about, especially given the lack of benefits - though she recently acquired half-off her personal health insurance. She is thinking about applying to another practice which recently posted an ad asking for "salary expectations" with the application. Assuming she wants somewhere around $30-$31, should she overshoot the intial offer, maybe $34/hr saying 'pending benefits' or something? Asking for salary expectations on paper isn't something I've seen much of myself. Additionally, she has three years of experience in a field which is capped in terms of annual graduates, who also tend to move away or have babies and quit early on. I feel like it shouldn't be any problem at all for an established practice to pay even more, but the dentists I've met so far are pretty terrible... She is convinced she will never get more than $30-31, but I feel like it shouldn't be a problem. The mean hourly wage is $28.60 in this county, for her profession.
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Mar 20, 2013 02:02
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Ultimate Mango posted:The 'do not talk about salaries with co-workers' clause may not be legal or enforceable in the United States. I am not a lawyer but I have had some discussions with counsel at my work, and short strokes sound like there is recent case law that reaffirms employee's rights to talk about their salary with each other if they wish to do so, and that they cannot be punished in any way for talking about it. The funny thing is they have a reputation as a "good" company in the public sphere. The attitude of everyone there is great and I love my co-workers, but it seems like everything else is window dressing and when you get a few beers in people they start to talk about how things are backwards when it comes to compensation for the amount of work they do. Everyone is afraid to talk specifics too. I see things changing in other ways as well, especially to a more corporate get your poo poo done or else attitude, so I don't blame the people who jumped ship. Also, I did ask for 40k, but I was desperate to get out of my dead-end HTML e-mail job, so they got the best of me. Chalk it up to experience. I'm going to get my 1-2 years in first then look around. We're a very saturated advertising city so there are always places looking for developers. Really though I'd like to get to CO or WA. cheese eats mouse fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 03:08
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So tomorrow I'll be negotiating salary with my potential new employer. I went in and interviewed once based on a referral from a friend of mine. This is for a manager role, which would be my first foray into actual management. I've already made the mistake of telling the internal recruiter what I currently make. She said I "had" to and I foolishly disclosed. My target salary is also higher than the maximum they had in mind. I do feel as though I have a bit of leverage, as I don't really need the job and I'm in an industry where there isn't a whole lot of talent. I read the article on salary negotiation a few posts back and it was very helpful. However, one piece of advice I was given a while back was never settle for below what you feel you're worth. Unfortunately, I'm getting paid $0.75 and I'm asking for $1.00, which is a pretty significant % increase (33%). If I'm currently being underpaid and the recruiter thinks I have fewer years of experience than most managers they hire, that puts me in more of a defensive position in this negotiation. Have any of you been in a situation where you're currently underpaid, they know your salary, and you kind of have to justify a "fair" salary that the company typically doesn't offer? They said their max for the role is typically something like $0.90, which would be a 20% raise. So... stay unhappy in my current consulting job with some really smart people in my industry or rejoin the agency world for a management slot with some people who seem fun but aren't really industry people?
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Mar 20, 2013 03:59
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cheese eats mouse posted:Really though I'd like to get to CO or WA. Start networking now. Use LinkenIn to make some contacts. Research your target possible employers and see if they have openings or if you can figure out who the hiring managers are. I personally am always networking and looking for candidates I can hire not only now, but some time down the line. I have people across the country who, if they ever decide to move to my region, know to call me for a job. Not that I'll have one when they need it, but they have a connection. No reason why you can't do the same. Wagoneer posted:So... stay unhappy in my current consulting job with some really smart people in my industry or rejoin the agency world for a management slot with some people who seem fun but aren't really industry people? Coming out of consulting you should be able to take a step up and get paid fair market value. Yes, there are consultants who are worthless and should be shot, but a good consultant settling down to work for one company should get paid well. Think of it this way: If your new employer were to pay your consulting fee to be there full time, what would it cost? My guess is $4 when you want $1. Granted overhead and all that in a consultancy, but $1 should be viewed as cheap. I suppose the real question is 'how unhappy are you'? Alternatively, if you always wanted to be a manager, but very few management positions open up in your field you may be wise to take it. Assuming there are regular management opportunities and you don't drink yourself to sleep every night and want to slam a hand in the car door to avoid going to work, maybe 'tough it out' (holy crap, I am that guy) for now and find the management gig that is right for you at the right price with the right team.
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Mar 20, 2013 04:16
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Wagoneer posted:I've already made the mistake of telling the internal recruiter what I currently make. She said I "had" to and I foolishly disclosed. Response Strategy 1. I was paid well and in line with job market conditions. 2. You'd be happy to discuss salary history later in the hiring process 3. You're interested in the opportunity so far Specific Examples When asked “What was your most recent compensation?” state the following (or something similar that is comfortable for you). “I was paid well in my last position and in-line with market conditions and the results I delivered. I will be happy to discuss my compensation history in detail when we have decided that I'm the right person for this position.” If they asked again; “I realize that you need to make certain that my salary expectations are consistent with the salary range. To ensure we are aligned, please tell me the salary range and I'll let you know how my salary matches the range.” If they ask yet again; “When deciding on a position I consider the following factors; quality of the opportunity, quality of the company and the people I'd be working with, long term growth potential, location and compensation. Compensation is the least important criteria I use to evaluate a position. So far I'm impressed with what I have learned about this opportunity and remain very interested.” *** Apart from that, if it's a computer issue ("I need to put in a number into this field to continue") a good response is: "Okay, just put $1 and we'll revisit it later."
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Mar 20, 2013 04:25
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Ultimate Mango posted:Coming out of consulting you should be able to take a step up and get paid fair market value. Yes, there are consultants who are worthless and should be shot, but a good consultant settling down to work for one company should get paid well. Think of it this way: If your new employer were to pay your consulting fee to be there full time, what would it cost? My guess is $4 when you want $1. Granted overhead and all that in a consultancy, but $1 should be viewed as cheap. Thanks, I appreciate the input. I think the consulting fee comparison is a good way to look at it, but I'm not sure how valid of an argument that might be to a recruiter. I was planning on using the fair market value argument - so I hope they concede a bit on that one. Should I start the negotiations asking for $1.10 or just stay at $1.00? Edit: One last thing... I could hypothetically get some equity. I don't know when, I don't know how much, etc. I think this company that I'm in has a ton of potential (we sell a really high-quality product alongside our consulting business), but I don't know if I would get enough equity to compensate for the money I would get with a 33% raise and the Manager title. That said, I'm also at the bottom of the totem pole but am one of the first people to really use and support our product (if that means anything). Edit 2 (negotiation): So I got off the call with the internal recruiter and they offered me $0.90, which is what I expected. I again asked for $1.00 and they said it might be next to impossible to hit that value. This is okay to me. I don't mind turning down the offer. However, I would like to be able to sign the offer letter because I really like the team. They said they could work some magic and see if they can add vacation days; but in the agency world, there really isn't any such thing as a real vacation that won't completely bite you in the rear end just as much as if you had just stayed at the office so it's a pretty negligible bonus. The unfortunate side of this is that I am negotiating with the internal recruiter and her staffing department and not the physical team I would be working with. So no matter how I slice it, they will see me as someone who doesn't have an MBA (which she brought up) and has less experience than a typical manager they hire (which she also brought up). We'll see what happens next... Wagoneer fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Mar 20, 2013 |
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Mar 20, 2013 15:15
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Hey folks just wanted to pop in and give some advice about salary negotiations. It still doesn't follow exactly what you should do, but its a bit encouraging I guess. I just had a phone screen and at the end I was asked the "how much do you make and what are you looking for" question. I responded with a longer form of "I think that is something we can discuss if I get further in the process, what is the intended salary range?" I was told that they are hiring from technician to senior level and its based on experience, so he said it could be anywhere from 40k to 100k as well as a note that he wasn't trying to devalue me or anything. I responded that I was looking for 65k and that the number was dependent upon if I find out there are more responsibilities in an interview. Notice I steered the entire conversation away from the first question, "what do you make now?" Which truth be told is 30% less than what I should be making, so I got to avoid answering that question! So if you are like me and too timid to wait until offer is in hand, but also don't want to let yourself get steamrolled, at least attempt to steer the conversation away
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Mar 20, 2013 22:11
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Crazyweasel posted:Hey folks just wanted to pop in and give some advice about salary negotiations. It still doesn't follow exactly what you should do, but its a bit encouraging I guess. This sounds like the right way to go when you're trying to land the job. I'm assuming you're coming from maybe 30-50K but don't want to give that away if you're really worth closer to 65K, so nice work. I had an interesting conversation with a recruiter yesterday, where I wasn't intent on landing the job at all, certainly changed the dynamic. Instead of dancing around I just stated the number it would take for me to move from my current job, and they said that was out of their range. No time wasted, when it wouldn't have been worth it to chase down.
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Mar 20, 2013 23:38
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When I talk to candidates I tend to get to money pretty fast. My goal is that money not be the issue. I don't want to hire someone and have them worry about money or gripe that they don't make enough. I want them to be able to focus on the job and their onboarding and training and integration with the team. Some people simply require more than I can pay. Others I can make happy and a relatively low cost. Others I have to go fight with finance and sell internally so we can get them the right package. If someone is worth the high end of the scale, they are worth it. Then again I had someone go through the whole process with no sign of concern and then tell me he couldn't accept because someone else offered him a package fully $50k more than we were offering, and could not touch. Lots of wasted time, and needlessly so if the candidate had been truthful.
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Mar 21, 2013 19:52
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Just got what felt like a "final" offer of $0.02 higher than the offer of $0.90 (math = $0.92). That's $0.08 below what I wanted. I'm not sure whether it's worth compromising or not. I would like to move out of my hometown and told myself I wouldn't stay for under $1.00, BUT... (and there's always a but) I'm not sure if I should get while the gettin' is good for my industry and just take the job or what. I'm not sure when I'm being petty about money and when I'm not.
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Mar 21, 2013 20:42
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Wagoneer posted:Just got what felt like a "final" offer of $0.02 higher than the offer of $0.90 (math = $0.92). That's $0.08 below what I wanted. I'm not sure whether it's worth compromising or not. I would like to move out of my hometown and told myself I wouldn't stay for under $1.00, BUT... (and there's always a but) I'm not sure if I should get while the gettin' is good for my industry and just take the job or what. I'm not sure when I'm being petty about money and when I'm not. Reading back, looks like your final jump would be from $0.75 now to $0.92 along with the title bump to Manager. You know better than I your feelings around current job and this job, but from my perspective, this seems like a no-brainer, take it. You're clearly underpaid and dissatisfied with your current position, and while you may end up underpaid at the new place as well, you may very well end up satisfied given the intangibles. At worst, you'll be stuck looking for another job in the not too distant future, but this time with a $0.92 base to work from, justifying even further growth. If there aren't any other clear externalities here, I say go for it. Also maybe you should look into a better paying industry and move out of rural China where you don't have to quibble over 8 cents. I hear garment factories pay pretty well.
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Mar 21, 2013 22:16
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DukAmok posted:Reading back, looks like your final jump would be from $0.75 now to $0.92 along with the title bump to Manager. You know better than I your feelings around current job and this job, but from my perspective, this seems like a no-brainer, take it. You're clearly underpaid and dissatisfied with your current position, and while you may end up underpaid at the new place as well, you may very well end up satisfied given the intangibles. At worst, you'll be stuck looking for another job in the not too distant future, but this time with a $0.92 base to work from, justifying even further growth. If there aren't any other clear externalities here, I say go for it. I live on a boat off of North Korea, so I only deal in small sums to not raise red flags. We get by through subsidies - the change is for cigarettes.
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Mar 21, 2013 22:20
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I thought you were using the cents as a placeholder to not reveal true salary 
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Mar 22, 2013 00:49
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Bucket Joneses posted:I thought you were using the cents as a placeholder to not reveal true salary He's the guy keeping pirate bay afloat in the DPRK data centers. Seems like a very successful negotiation though. $.08 difference is negligible, and if its the right job it seems reasonable.
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Mar 22, 2013 01:02
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Ultimate Mango posted:He's the guy keeping pirate bay afloat in the DPRK data centers. Yeah no disrespect meant at all. I was just mega confused reading his post.
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Mar 22, 2013 01:28
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Bucket Joneses posted:Yeah no disrespect meant at all. I was just mega confused reading his post. Everything is easier when you scale it from 1-100 (or 0-1). I was being facetious 
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Mar 22, 2013 02:53
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Wagoneer posted:Everything is easier when you scale it from 1-100 (or 0-1). I was being facetious I actually really liked how you framed the percentages around your target salary, I think that's the right way to think about it. I think a lot of people (and companies) implicitly frame around their current salary, which is pretty useless when you're being underpaid. Whether or not you end up taking it, you've totally got the right approach, so more power to you bud!
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Mar 22, 2013 20:34
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Ugh, so today is the day I turn in my 2 weeks notice and my stomach is twisting. I'm spending the entire time thinking of reasons I should stay. Wish me luck.
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Mar 26, 2013 14:45
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Wagoneer posted:Ugh, so today is the day I turn in my 2 weeks notice and my stomach is twisting. I'm spending the entire time thinking of reasons I should stay. Wish me luck. Good luck. We're all counting on you.
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Mar 26, 2013 15:53
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Thoguh posted:Good luck. We're all counting on you. Thanks - Just did it. Trip report: Went well.
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Mar 26, 2013 16:35
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Wagoneer posted:Thanks - Just did it. Trip report: Went well. At least you were a decent human being about it. I had someone who worked for me resign recently. Said person did so via a rather strange email. On a Monday. At 5:30 in the morning. And then go off the grid completely. I don't mean to derail this thread, but when you leave your current job for something different/better, don't be a complete rear end about it. Unless you work for an employer where there are actual legal issues (I wish I could tell those stories, oh lordy), give your notice and do it in person, maybe with a simple letter they can stick in your HR file. And remember, you are not obliged to tell your employer where you are going. God forbid you admit to going to a competitor and you had a non-compete contract with the company you are leaving. I have seen that many times, and it is not fun for anyone involved. Don't burn any bridges, but don't be spouting off information that could get you in trouble. Don't brag about how you downloaded the customer list between when you accepted the new job offer and resigned at your current one. Don't admit that you want to go steal all of your old customers. Don't talk about how you are going to screw your previous employer. Just don't say anything. Give your two weeks and agree to do a nice, thorough handover of your current work assignments. Maybe you are going to a competitor and maybe they do walk you out the door immediately, but make that the company's choice, not yours.
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Mar 26, 2013 16:48
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Whoa, those all sound like incredibly extreme ways to resign. I don't doubt that this is done every day, though. I typed up an incredibly nice, heartfelt thank you letter and sat my boss down in a conference room. She's a good friend so it made it incredibly difficult. Unfortunately, the company just wasn't my cup of tea.
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Mar 26, 2013 16:51
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Personal anecdote regarding the whole quitting thing: I got shunted around as a pawn in politics between three managers, wasn't happy with the industry I'd moved sideways into and found a job with a company that sounded really interesting. The offer came through while all three managers were away (on separate business trips) while I was holding the fort. I called each of them, said that a formal resignation letter would be in their inboxes by 8PM that night, and all appeared to be good. That is, until they started fighting over which manager would have my remaining two weeks of work. Ended up blowing up on a teleconference between two of them (A and B), while I was in the office of B. I was told later that the entire floor could hear A's five minute long rant from the closed office, via the speaker phone. I walked straight out, went to HR and got immediately released from my two week notice period. I've since heard some of the things that B spread about me and I'm sure it'd make it incredibly difficult to get a job anywhere he had knowledge of. I guess my point is even if you do everything right, you have to figure out where the line is where you just are not going to go to the wall so you don't burn bridges. ---- On a happier note after 18 months with this company I am relocating to drive the expansion of our US operations. I look back at my professional life up until this point and I'm reasonably happy how things turned out. This is taking into account the situation above, as well as being made redundant at another company, etc. I'm currently paid well, and the drop in cost of living will be a tremendous boon. All my benefits will transition across and I've always wanted to live and work in the US (although I have other options than this job due to my fiance) so I'm already ahead on a number of fronts. That said, I'm being paid for my current responsibilities and there's still a lack of clarity as to what my new responsibilities will be beyond "Do great things!" I've spent the last 18 months with my foot all the way on the accelerator in both my work and pressure on management to increase my pay/benefits, as I came in to to fill a position that I was qualified for five years ago with an eye to transitioning to kind of where I am now. On one hand I have a lot of freedom to define my role, on the other it looks like I'm probably going to have to suck it up for three to six months before I can make a case for my next pay rise. My company's not your standard corporate beast, but I guess the same general principles to getting an outcome apply; make an unassailable argument and reduce friction so that it is easier to make it happen than stand in the way. All upper management exists back at head office, which is one of the reasons why I'm worried about having to make a case for this remotely (or wait until I have a trip back to the mothership). I'd like to at least set an agenda for the coming discussion now, before I leave. It's definitely an expectation on all sides that there will be a serious conversation about change in remuneration due to the new responsibilities, but everyone's dealing with so much stuff I've barely had a five minute conversation about my relocation costs, let alone salary. Anyone have thoughts?
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Apr 1, 2013 05:42
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If you're going for less than a year chances are you'll be an expatriate, so I would expect your salary remains largely unchanged but basically everything should be covered (lowering your expenses). Plane ticket, moving expenses, housing, cost of living allowance, etc. If it's longer, they might request you transfer to your company's US entity. So you'll have a chance to negotiate because you'll need to sign a new contract and all that.
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Apr 1, 2013 06:37
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zmcnulty posted:If you're going for less than a year chances are you'll be an expatriate, so I would expect your salary remains largely unchanged but basically everything should be covered (lowering your expenses). Plane ticket, moving expenses, housing, cost of living allowance, etc. Sorry, I knew I forgot something. It's permanent, with a new wholly-owned entity. The company's not really the type that requires me to wait for a new contract for a change in negotiated benefits/salary, but you make a good point that when I transfer legal employers it'd make sense to draw the line there if it hadn't already been dealt with. My responsibilities are different going forward, it's definitely not a case of doing what I did at head office at the new office.
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Apr 1, 2013 06:44
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Hey guys - I've got a bit of general early-career confusion going on and was wondering if anyone here had some wisdom to drop on me while I'm thinking it over General background: I went through college as a pre-med science major, planning on working for a year or two and going to med school. Since then, I've been working a job at an industry-specific management consulting firm. Recently, I've been rethinking the whole med school thing (all kinds of reasons - mostly just that I was never one of those doctor-or-bust people who can't imagine doing anything else, and spending the next 8 years working my rear end off for no money is looking less and less attractive if the endgame isn't something I'm ultra passionate about). As a result, I'm spending a lot of time thinking seriously about an open-ended professional life for the first time. I'm not 100% in love with what I'm doing now though, either. The company is great - it's small, I work directly with upper management regularly (who are for the most part genuinely brilliant people), and the clients range from startups to gigantic multinationals. On the other hand, there are a lot of hours involved, they're very unpredictable, and client services can feel like being permanently on-call. The pay is great for my age, but not necessarily incredible for the industry/area I live in (lol nyc). Basically, I'm not sure that I want to stay at this job, or even in this industry. A few years of experience in management consulting can open a lot of doors so I'm going to ride it out for now, but there are definitely some questions I'd love to see if anyone can offer some insight on: First, how well does industry-specific consulting experience translate outside of that field (a lot of it seems pretty generalizable - BD strategy, product launch planning, M&A work, etc)? Secondly, my firm is very well respected in the field, but is small and totally unknown outside of it - come time to explore my options, how much of a problem will that be? Is bouncing around a lot early on in my career a really dumb idea? I don't mean leaving five jobs in two years or anything like that, but if I look around for an internal strategy or finance job in a totally different field and don't like that better, will I end up just looking unfocused and screwing myself over in both areas? And, finally, how does internal work compare to something like consulting (mostly with regard to lifestyle/hours, but also in advancement opportunity/anything else that might be relevant).
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Apr 2, 2013 04:22
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Holla Forth posted:First, how well does industry-specific consulting experience translate outside of that field (a lot of it seems pretty generalizable - BD strategy, product launch planning, M&A work, etc)? Secondly, my firm is very well respected in the field, but is small and totally unknown outside of it - come time to explore my options, how much of a problem will that be? Is bouncing around a lot early on in my career a really dumb idea? I don't mean leaving five jobs in two years or anything like that, but if I look around for an internal strategy or finance job in a totally different field and don't like that better, will I end up just looking unfocused and screwing myself over in both areas? And, finally, how does internal work compare to something like consulting (mostly with regard to lifestyle/hours, but also in advancement opportunity/anything else that might be relevant). Industry specific consulting can be hard to translate, but you accurately generalized the approach to identifying transferable skills. Some industries may have more overlap than others. More importantly coming from management consulting will be the overall approach and methods for identifying and solving customer pain and problems. That being said, I could not walk onto an oil derrick and tell them how to achieve operational efficiency even though I could do so in an IT shop with my eyes closed. Small firms tend to not be a problem. If you can walk into an interview, or even better, establish a network, where you can talk about your skills and accomplishments you should end up being a credible candidate. Worst case you might have to explain about your firm. Too small can be a problem. I interviewed a person who worked for a 'small' IT consulting firm that turned out to be him and a few friends and it wasn't even really a viable business (hence he was seeking full time employment). As for bouncing around, if you are very early in your career it may not hurt badly but it will likely not help either until you get established in a field and show consistent experience. Consulting/outside work is indeed a very different lifestyle from inside work. I tend to interview more the other way (inside people moving outside), and I have to be very clear that it is a totally lifestyle change. Routine (if there is one) is very different, schedule and work hours, travel, and so forth. Moving from outside to the inside, especially coming from management consulting should get you a step up in the process. To grossly over-generalize If you are a manager level management consultant you would take a directorship on the inside (or higher, director might be considered a lateral move in some cases). When that time comes you should have some good mentors and advisers to help you through that process and analysis (or you can become the ultimate thread necromancer). Some unsolicited advice: Do good work. Seek out and work with the best people you can. Never stop looking for opportunities to improve in what you do and how you do it. And start building and maintaining your network now. In consulting your network, especially one started from early in your career, can help you through decades of career growth, even if you make some changes along the way.
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Apr 2, 2013 04:47
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That was really helpful - thanks a ton. And yeah, I wasn't talking so small as that, more like ~40 professional staff. Small enough that people don't recognize the name unless they work in the industry.
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Apr 2, 2013 05:10
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