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Nocheez posted:So you're saying different people enjoy different things? Mercy! Fojar38 posted:I don't understand why sitting in the shed of a Belizean stranger's farm doing drugs is an intrinsically superior experience to a cruise. Leon Einstein fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2013 around 15:58 |
| # ? Feb 13, 2013 15:55 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 14:43 |
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Haha it really sounds like everyone here saying cruises are death traps and prisons and "you can do that at home!" haven't been on a good cruise. Its fuckin tits bros. And I'm in my 30s, not retired. TITS, BROS.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 15:59 |
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David Foster Wallace wrote a long and great story about his experience on a cruise ship..very entertaining read. Wiki: A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 16:11 |
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Guy Montag posted:Yeah dude, it's just common sense. Everyone knows poo poo with bleach in it is like spring water compared to raw sewage. Just swim in it ya big baby. Oh and the fish can move if they don't like it. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The company that made Marine Sanitation Device we had marketed it by having the salesman drink a glass of the end result. That's loving gross, but the end result of the treated sewage is literally cleaner than tap water. The state of Hawaii was all over us on every little environmental issue, and threatened constantly to kick us out unless we met the incredibly stringent regulations they laid out. Also, I can't speak for foreign-flagged ships since I wasn't on one, but we didn't discharge sewage (or really anything but cooling water) until we were in open water. Judging by how strict Hawaii was with us, I doubt they would allow anybody else to dock if they were polluting the harbors.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 16:16 |
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Leon Einstein posted:You're the guy with 20,000 posts on that cruise ship forum, aren't you? There are plenty of reasons to dislike the concept of cruises, and being a goon has nothing to do with any of them. I'm glad someone bought that custom title for you, it saves me a lot of work 
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 16:19 |
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Barehanded Brother posted:I'm glad someone bought that custom title for you, it saves me a lot of work I dunno, I think he makes a good point. I'd much rather wander freely and soak up the local flavor than spend my time being shepherded around from tourist trap to tourist trap with a bunch of fat middle-aged Americans. I lived overseas for a while in a town that would occasionally be a cruise ship stop and it was just painful watching the hordes of passengers, I felt embarrassed to share their nationality.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 16:30 |
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Someone said something about it being like a moving inclusive resort and that's probably the best litmus test as if to someone will enjoy cruises. I'm not sure why its such a big deal people have different tastes in pleasure trips. Sometimes you take a cruise and its pretty alright and sometimes there's literal rivers of poo poo. Sometimes you stay in a shack in Belize with a brick of weed and its rad and sometimes you stay in a shack in Belize and McAffee shoves bath salts up your butt.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 16:41 |
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berserker posted:Haha it really sounds like everyone here saying cruises are death traps and prisons and "you can do that at home!" haven't been on a good cruise. Its fuckin tits bros. And I'm in my 30s, not retired. TITS, BROS. I gotta agree, I went on a cruise ship my mom won from a contest when I was 12 and the only lovely part of the entire trip was the cruise personnel trying to prevent us from going outside the "touristy" section of the city we stopped at. Well, that and my mom had violent seasickness the entire trip that could have forced us to cancel the post-cruise part of the vacation, but for me, it was fun as hell.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 16:53 |
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zedprime posted:Someone said something about it being like a moving inclusive resort and that's probably the best litmus test as if to someone will enjoy cruises. I don't think it is because of two major differences, one is at an all inclusive resort you are on the beach, you get to spend all day on the beach with a fruity alcoholic drink and a book. On the beach. The beach is the appeal. Also you are allowed to leave whenever you want. Of course not all cruises are like that, there are some awesome ones where it is a floating hotel that moves you from site to site to explore the local area but a 4 day cruise to visit a private island for a day, gently caress that. Three Olives fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2013 around 16:56 |
| # ? Feb 13, 2013 16:53 |
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zedprime posted:Someone said something about it being like a moving inclusive resort and that's probably the best litmus test as if to someone will enjoy cruises. I'm not sure why its such a big deal people have different tastes in pleasure trips. Sometimes you take a cruise and its pretty alright and sometimes there's literal rivers of poo poo. Sometimes you stay in a shack in Belize with a brick of weed and its rad and sometimes you stay in a shack in Belize and McAffee shoves bath salts up your butt. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who immediately connected McAfee to someone taking a vacation to get high in Belize.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 16:59 |
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I went on a 5-day Caribbean cruise on the Carnival Triumph in the middle of last year. This story is scary as gently caress, and my heart goes out to the people having to suffer in those conditions. Having said that, it would seem that some of you have either never gone on a Carnival cruise, or any cruise at all. Please allow me to clear up some misconceptions about the Triumph:
Now, Carnival is the "discount" cruise line. It's true. So, it does attract the Wal-Mart crowd of vacationers. It's generally not a big deal, though. The guy who's literally drunk the entire loving cruise is going to be there. The trashy people will be there. But, overall, it's a great experience and something I plan on doing again at some point in the future. Probably after they get the poo poo and deseases cleaned up. I can't wait to see that GoPro footage! 
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 17:00 |
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Three Olives posted:I don't think it is because of two major differences, one is at an all inclusive resort you are on the beach, you get to spend all day on the beach with a fruity alcoholic drink and a book. On the beach. The beach is the appeal. Also you are allowed to leave whenever you want. And to be fair, a lot of people like myself who hate cruises also hate all-inclusive resorts for similar reasons. Most of the places with all-inclusive resorts have dirt-cheap food and booze anyway, and it's usually way better once you get away from the horrid resort buffet at that.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 17:30 |
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Geology posted:When he called me, he was pretty excited about the 1080p 60FPS footage he got of the 'full scale panic' from when the fire broke out, and subsequent 'tent cities' since those with interior rooms had to find somewhere else to sleep. So look forward to one hell of a youtube link as soon as he gets a chance to upload it. Why is he shooting at 60 FPS? That's not going to look... good...
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 17:36 |
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I was beside myself listening to 2 moms on the news while in the breakroom at work relaying stories of duffelbag making GBS threads and onion sandwiches. Am I a bad person for laughing at their problems?
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 17:41 |
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SaltLick posted:Screw making GBS threads in a bucket. I'd just hang my rear end over the edge and have the most amazing poo poo smear. This is a lot harder to do than it sounds, especially in open water.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 17:53 |
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Lt. Tanaka posted:This is a lot harder to do than it sounds, especially in open water. Fun Fact: The cruise line makes a special point to educate their passengers to not toss garbage or cigarette/cigar butts off the side of the ship. This is not for the obvious environmental issues, but rather the fact that they can and will blow back onto the lower levels of the ship, which can cause injury or fires (some rooms have balconies and some levels have walkways). Now, imagine getting hit in the face with someone's diarrhea and piss, because they decided to drop a deuce off the side.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 17:59 |
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Don't some companies do young people party cruises? I know budweiser had one they sponsored, but I'm sure it was terrible.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:00 |
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Apple Craft posted:Fun Fact: The cruise line makes a special point to educate their passengers to not toss garbage or cigarette/cigar butts off the side of the ship. This is not for the obvious environmental issues, but rather the fact that they can and will blow back onto the lower levels of the ship, which can cause injury or fires (some rooms have balconies and some levels have walkways). Now, imagine getting hit in the face with someone's diarrhea and piss, because they decided to drop a deuce off the side. Especially hilarious when you consider the people on those lower balconies went out onto them to get away from the poo poo they are knee deep in below decks in the first place.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:05 |
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I would never go on another Carnival cruise, it was absolute poo poo. Someone else was right Norwegian is where its at. My first cruise was on the Norway which was a cool old ship used in WWII (or one, I can't remember) so it wasn't as mall-like as the rest. I like going on cruises personally, they make for decent vacations. I was on a cruise when 9/11 happened and when we got back to the US, because the airports were still closed, they weren't able to fill up the boat for the next trip. They offered all of us 1/4 price to get back on the boat and go on the next cruise they were so desperate to fill the boat. Traveling anywhere was pointless so we jumped all over that and it wound up being the best drat vacation of my life. There was hardly anyone on that trip, it was pretty much an empty boat. Plus we had all that duty free liquor we'd bought so we didn't wind up spending anything really on that trip.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:07 |
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Cruise ships are vacations for people afraid of other cultures. They want to be somewhere exotic, but still be sheltered by a thick layer of their own culture.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:10 |
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Apple Craft posted:This is not for the obvious environmental issues, but rather the fact that they can and will blow back onto the lower levels of the ship, which can cause injury or fires It's also an environmental issue, not everything blows back onboard. Back when I worked for a cruise line, throwing anything over the side was ground for an immediate dismissal, and that policy had been in place before the balcony fire on that princess boat (Star Princess? Grand Princess?)
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:10 |
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Crackpipe posted:Why is he shooting at 60 FPS? That's not going to look... good... HATE CURES TRANNYS posted:Don't some companies do young people party cruises? I know budweiser had one they sponsored, but I'm sure it was terrible.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:15 |
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Apple Craft posted:Fun Fact: The cruise line makes a special point to educate their passengers to not toss garbage or cigarette/cigar butts off the side of the ship. This is not for the obvious environmental issues, but rather the fact that they can and will blow back onto the lower levels of the ship, which can cause injury or fires (some rooms have balconies and some levels have walkways). Now, imagine getting hit in the face with someone's diarrhea and piss, because they decided to drop a deuce off the side. I wonder if someone has ever suffered a concussion or brain injury from hard falling shits? Imagine the accident report.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:19 |
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Not really getting all the goon-hate for cruises, though I definitely will never go on Carnival after reading they offered $2 an hour wage for a job that requires a degree  Yes they are like a floating resort, but it really is awesome to be up at 2 am and just randomly go to the movie theater that has the sky above it. Also pretty much everything is open 24/7. I kind of like the feeling of being the only one walking around an entire mall myself. I've never really seen them packed, except lunch time can get kind of cramped but there's usually like 2 or 3 different places to eat (some ships will literally have several restaurants, each with their own theme). If you don't drink booze you can literally spend $0 the entire time you are on a cruise (other than the first cost you paid for the cruise, obviously). I've been on cruises that were literally like $500 for a week. $500 wouldn't get me 2 nights at a hotel in Atlantic City and there I'd still have to pay for food. Another positive is it's pretty drat relaxing. You can see 4 different European countries on a 9 day cruise. I totally agree you aren't going to see cool stuff like Three Olives said (the native way people live, etc.). But in all honest if I'm going to see Italy I'd like to go to Venice...not some unfamiliar spot no one heard of. I totally understand the desire to do the "backpacking" thing and really travel or whatever, but I try to unwind on a vacation...not increase my stress. Traveling can be ridiculously exhausting (I've done it many times) but cruises are really the only vacations I come home from feeling refreshed. It's all personal preference but I think I'm just spoiled by how much you get by spending such little money (I think they count on people playing in their casinos which have almost no payout laws due to being on uncharted territory or something). Even the beers were moderately priced ($3 each which is still half of what I pay at some local places near me). I've just written way too much about cruises. Milky_Sauce fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2013 around 18:22 |
| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:19 |
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Leon Einstein posted:
And then everyone stood up and clapped
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:23 |
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Crackpipe posted:Why is he shooting at 60 FPS? That's not going to look... good... I don't know, man, I'm not a movie director!
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:24 |
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Milky_Sauce posted:Not really getting all the goon-hate for cruises, though I definitely will never go on Carnival after reading they offered $2 an hour wage for a job that requires a degree To be fair, your currency conversion is off, it was around $4 an hour. I also forgot to mention that I would need to fly to Miami for an interview (at my own cost - I live in the UK), fly home, and if I got it, fly BACK again (also at my own cost). But they would pay for my flight home. So that's nice.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:26 |
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Milky_Sauce posted:Not really getting all the goon-hate for cruises Pretty well spelled out, I thought. Some of it is a class, or perceived class, issue. Some of it is a internet social justice with a very big I and a very small sj, where they are very concerned about the lot of the Indonesian stewards. But the big one is that middle class white people on the internet like Authenticity. They insist that their experiences, or at least their stories about their experiences be Authentic, real, not at all sullied by artifice. So, a pre-determined managed pampered experience just isn't going to reinforce the self image they prefer. Really, go ahead and read the David Foster Wallace thing. It hits all those points. A lot of goons think they are David Foster Wallace. I also think a fair bit of it is generational. Cruising is an old person idea of fun. So are bed and breakfasts in Vermont. But I expect in 20 years, Eco-touring or live-in cooking tours of northern italy, or whatever will be old person fun that will be horribly embarrasing and dumb and boring for cool young people, who would much rather be doing... Slo-Tek fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2013 around 18:30 |
| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:26 |
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Milky_Sauce posted:Yes they are like a floating resort Milky_Sauce posted:Another positive is it's pretty drat relaxing. You can see 4 different European countries on a 9 day cruise.  Admittedly it's a bit superficial, but so is visiting that many countries on such a short trip.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:29 |
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I would by far prefer to artificially and unauthentically live a hedonistic lifestyle for a week than authentically and realistically get my organs harvested to fund a Mexican drug war which is far more likely to happen if I decide to cruise around rural Latin America giving people thirty bucks to stay in their barn.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:30 |
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Sloppy posted:I dunno, I think he makes a good point. I'd much rather wander freely and soak up the local flavor than spend my time being shepherded around from tourist trap to tourist trap with a bunch of fat middle-aged Americans. I lived overseas for a while in a town that would occasionally be a cruise ship stop and it was just painful watching the hordes of passengers, I felt embarrassed to share their nationality. That really depends on the kind of people the cruise caters to though. When I went you had like 9 hours to walk through town, or go on one of the tours arranged by local people or travel organisations. Sure it could be big groups (20 people a group) but its not like people went around waving huge rear end camera's, fanny packs and Hawaiian shirts. Everyone just looked like generic middle class Europeans and no one bothered any of the tourists except for at really obvious tourist congregation points like the exits of attractions. All the lazy fat people or shoppers even had their own tours to cater to with them going to shopping malls or just hanging on the beach while the more culturally inclined people like myself went to old ruins, climbed mountains and visited tiny cliff villages. Also free alcoholic drinks on board.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:33 |
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Powershift posted:Cruise ships are vacations for people afraid of other cultures. They want to be somewhere exotic, but still be sheltered by a thick layer of their own culture. Haha this is so dumb. Consider that the cruise I went on was to another US state (not very "exotic" eh?) and at the same time pretty much every single person working on the cruise ship was not only amazingly nice to us but was from other countries (mainly Australia, Malaysia, and the Philippines) who we talked to all the time and taught us a lot about their cultures. I'll never forget our room attendant Quan, or our server Jerome... So pretty much the exact opposite of what you describe. But I've got no qualms in saying gently caress Carnival, that's just plain a terrible company all around. edit: also if you're going on a cruise where everything is already scheduled for you and you can't just do what you want when you want, you're on the wrong cruise line. Through my whole cruise it felt like I both could do whatever I wanted, and that there was always something different for me to do at any given time. So relaxing. Though, don't do a rock wall climb if you haven't warmed up and have never exercised a day in your life. That was a painful mistake 
berserker fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2013 around 18:41 |
| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:39 |
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Some people are perfectly fine with being sheparded to a Caribbean or Alaskan port where they can get out and spend 8 hours exploring or doing stuff and then head back to the ship for dinner. I don't see what is wrong with that. Not all cruise lines are Carnival and not all ports cruise ships stop at are making GBS threads places like Ensenada. I can't even get my parents to consider an all-inclusive resort because their idea of fun is going on Princess Cruises to some Carribbean port and going on a day hike or chatting up the locals on a tour. While this may seem boring to some internationally renowned, couch surfing, hostel hopping goons, but it is far away from the sedentary, anti-social picture some goons are trying to paint a typical cruise ship trip is always like WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2013 around 18:55 |
| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:43 |
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Like someone else said, this is pretty much it. Cruises take some rather large negatives (to some people) of resorts and accentuate them, so someone that doesn't like resorts in the first place is going to hate cruises. I guess then I'm confused as to why someone thinks a resort is a bad thing? Yeah I understand you are being a bit isolated, but I don't think it means I'm a giant wuss to not want to go strolling down random streets in Mexico. Also it's not that isolated; they have non-scammer taxi cabs and buses that will bring you anywhere you please, and the resort will make recommendations as to where you should and should not go if you still want your wallet to be there when you get back. Don't get me wrong- I've been on normal vacations to other countries, but in instances where I didn't use a travel agent, I would literally have a friend or relative native to the country to show me around. I really don't think it's that nuts to be aprehensive about going to a country you've never been to and perusing the place like it's a different zip code in your state. That's just me though- maybe I am a bit paranoid, I don't know. On all of these resorts or cruises though, there's always really awesome optional itineraries to go on; all pre-approved so that I don't end up picking the wrong bus and ending up as a sex slave for the rest of my 20's. I mean the cruise ships literally give you a daily "news paper" with a gargantuan list of things you can do for the day when the boat docks. I don't know why so many goons think it's literally the same as the boat moving in circles in Coney Island. I mean yeah they do have "cruises to nowhere" but those aren't really something I'm interested in. Edit: they are also a great way to "see a bunch of places" then decide if you want to do a long-staying vacation there. I will definitely be back to visit Venice (or live there if I somehow can) but I am also certain Rome, that while nice, wasn't as interesting to me. If anything I'd argue it's a better way to see the world; I sure as hell know I would have never saw Dubrovnik if it weren't a stop on a cruise I went on. Milky_Sauce fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2013 around 18:49 |
| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:44 |
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The White Dragon posted:I despise cruise ships. Forget the part where they docked at other ports in the Pacific ocean and ended up introducing poo poo to Hawaii like the gall wasp and coqui frog; cruise ships singlehandedly ruined the Kahului Harbor. How? Because they legally dump their sewage there and have been doing so since before I was born. Not to mention they still manage to scare the crap out of me every time they blow their horn as they leave Honolulu harbor. It rattles my windows and I must be miles away. Thankfully there have only been isolated coqui frogs here, but I just know it's a matter of time and there is nothing we can do about it. Slightly frustrating.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:51 |
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Apple Craft posted:I went on a 5-day Caribbean cruise on the Carnival Triumph in the middle of last year. This story is scary as gently caress, and my heart goes out to the people having to suffer in those conditions. I went on the Triumph back in '04 during a college spring break. It wasn't horrible but then again it was completely paid for. I went on a second cruise (different ship) for a honeymoon and had a decent time but the second go wasn't nearly as good as the first. The novelty of "ooh, big ship!" and all that wears off really quick. Considering the ship is near 14-years old and felt kind of out-dated in '04, I'm not surprised that it's starting to fall apart. It's too bad a whole bunch of people had to pay the price for Carnival's lack of concern. I might do a cruise again in like 10 years (to Alaska or Europe) but no way am I going on a Caribbean cruise again.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:58 |
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almightyerin posted:My first cruise was on the Norway which was a cool old ship used in WWII (or one, I can't remember) so it wasn't as mall-like as the rest. Neither! Although, the ship is still cool for other reasons. I assume the SS Norway you were on is the one that use to be the SS France. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_France_%281961%29 One of the last great ocean liners built before jets just completely destroyed them, so you did get the experience of a ship that was built with cruising not as its main goal originally.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 19:09 |
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Carnival CEO (Can we get some armchair psychological analysis on this please?): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIQRLYNX1yA NBC: http://www.nbcnews.com/travel/worst...s-few-1B8325828 CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/11/travel/cruise-ship-fire Wonderful quote from a Businessweek user: Jenny the Wonderful Human Being posted:I think alot of what is being said is made up. We sailed on the Fantasy at Christmas 2010 and had nothing but a wonderful experience. Can't wait to sail again. It is a shame that all of those people are making this up. Carnival is under no obligation to refund anything.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 19:14 |
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I've been on 4 Carnival cruises (including one on the Triumph a little over a year ago) and two Disney cruises. My mom mostly loves cruising, and I'm happy to go along when she feels like travelling somewhere. It's NOT something for everyone but to say that you're shuffled around is pretty inaccurate. They usually have enough activities onboard so that if you want to do something, it's there. If you want to sit in a comfortable chair inside or out and read or watch the ocean go by, then that's what you can do. When you stop in a port, you can get off the ship and do your own thing and really explore the local culture, or go on an excursion and have a more generic experience, or just stay on the ship and continue relaxing. Carnival is, however, definitely the Wal-Mart of cruising. It's the cheapest and it has really start to show. The first time I went in 1995 the food was amazing and things felt pretty high quality. I noticed a decline when I went on another in like 2005, and the last Carnival trip I took in December of 2011 (on the Triumph!) a lot of the food was basically inedible (I learned to get lunch at the fresh sandwich stations) and the state of the ship felt... old. I wasn't all that shocked when I heard it was the Triumph that's out there having these problems. I will say that the staff on the Triumph were all incredible and I've been wondering if some of the people I met are still out there on the floating toilet. My mom and I typically do a vacation a year just the two of us. I'm not a huge Disney fan but we decided to do last years and this year's vacation on a Disney cruise because the quality was SO much better. Even travelling without kids we were never bored, and there's a bunch of adults only areas of the ship and activities. Sometimes to the point where there were more things we wanted to do than we could make it to. Cooking demonstrations, trivia competitions, expert speakers (like, the guy in charge of lighting at Disneyworld was aboard and gave talks about his job and the things he's lit, was really interesting). They also showed movies (We watched The Avengers, Brave, and Wreck-it-Ralph) and spent plenty of time on deck reading, swimming and listening to live musicians. The food is amazing, even at the buffets. The evening shows are almost Broadway quality and there was also a magician and stand-up comedian, with adult-only shows late at night. Plus the cruise we took last month had a day at Disneyworld and a day at Castaway Cay, Disney's private island, which was just absolutely loving amazing. Personally, I never get bored or feel herded around. It's a very low-key and relaxing way to vacation. And the thing about the people being the problem is both true and false. You make friends on the ship and hang out with them. Then there was the woman who, on the bus back from Disneyworld to the ship, called her sister and spent the entire time griping that she couldn't get her shower to quite the right temperature, that the dining rooms are noisy (typically the passengers on a Disney cruise are 50% children. Of course it's going to be noisy), that it was too cold at Disneyworld (high 50's to high 60's all day. Bring a sweater), and she was really angry that her 6 year old grandson wasn't allowed in the adult's only pool (there are two family pools, and one adults only.) Most of the people you meet are awesome and friendly and just happy to be there, though. Disney is definitely more of a "whole family" cruise line, but it's worth it just for the huge bump in quality over Carnival. Even so, later this year we're probably going to London for a week, because 3 of our last 4 mother-daughter vacations have been cruises and it's time for something different. Annakie fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2013 around 19:21 |
| # ? Feb 13, 2013 19:16 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 14:43 |
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Milky_Sauce posted:I guess then I'm confused as to why someone thinks a resort is a bad thing? Yeah I understand you are being a bit isolated, but I don't think it means I'm a giant wuss to not want to go strolling down random streets in Mexico. Also it's not that isolated; they have non-scammer taxi cabs and buses that will bring you anywhere you please, and the resort will make recommendations as to where you should and should not go if you still want your wallet to be there when you get back. Milky_Sauce posted:I mean the cruise ships literally give you a daily "news paper" with a gargantuan list of things you can do for the day when the boat docks. I don't know why so many goons think it's literally the same as the boat moving in circles in Coney Island. I mean yeah they do have "cruises to nowhere" but those aren't really something I'm interested in.
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| # ? Feb 13, 2013 19:20 |
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