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Figured I'd make this thread because people were saying in the idiots thread they're interested in conscript and non-US militaries. First of all, a bit about me and my service history. I'm a Finnish male, and thus was conscripted in the Finnish military for a normal term of service. I got out of conscription as a 2LT, and went straight on to work for the company where I served as an instructor. I was an army signalist for my entire military career. After my bit as an instructor I attended the National Defence University, but quit since I realized I had gotten in for the wrong reasons (wanted to be a technical specialist, not a staff officer, which is the career path available to cadets). Most of my information is from the Army, so my information might be wrong regarding other services or specialist duties within the army. Feel free to correct me. Basics: The Finnish Defence Force consists of the standard three services plus the general HQ, and some special units that are more or less independent. All Finnish males, except Ålanders and Jehovahs witnesses, aged 18 to 50 for enlisted, 60 for officers belong to the reserves, and are conscripted into service between ages 18 and 30. The actual service is 165 days for enlisted, 255 for specialists and 347 for NCO/Officer/some specialists. After the actual service a conscript is called for exercises depending on branch of service between never and once every couple of years. There is also a civil service, which lasts for 347 days, a nonarmed military service lasting 255 or 347 days depending on the task you're trained for, and the option to refuse service, which gets you about a month in jail. The conscription process: The actual conscription process begins when you get a letter calling you into a conscription board, where conscripts are examined and placed in services depending on their wishes and the needs of the FDF. There are special units that you have to apply for separately, like the airborne and combat divers. At the conscription board they can also grant you an extension, or place you in different classes, A being fully capable, B being capable with limitations, C being freed from duty in peacetime and D being freed in wartime. After your conscription board you'll get another letter that tells you where you have to be, when, and includes bus/train tickets that you can use to get to your base or near it. The AF is mostly professional, the conscripts don't get to fly any of the real fighter planes, and the mechanics are mostly hired specialists. The Navy has more conscripts, but is still very muchly a professional service. The Army has the largest percentage of conscripts. The actual service: When you first report for duty you are assigned into a company, where you'll have a fast couple of days collecting equipment and trying to learn saluting, making a bed and other important soldierly skills. The first week is often really chaotic. The first eight weeks (Peruskoulutuskausi, or basic training) of service are the same across all the services, basic infantry and soldiering training. Also endless cleaning of equipment and the barracks. After basic training the training splits, with the future NCOs and officers getting sent to separate schools For enlisted men after the first eight weeks comes the Erikoiskoulutuskausi, or specialist training. During this time you will learn the basics of whatever your specialisation is, the Navy I think gets on boats at this time for example. After the specialist training is over you have the last months in Joukkokoulutuskausi, or group training, where the exercises are done in wartime configurations, and include different branches of service. And then, one fine day, you'll realize it's over and get to go home. If, on the other hand, you score well on tests and/or kiss rear end with the instructors enough and don't object to it, you get sent to NCO school. The first phase of NCO school takes place during the specialist training phase of the enlisted men, and during this first phase you are tested some more. The ones who want it and score well enough on tests get sent to the reserve officer school, the ones who don't stay in NCO school. Both of these take place during the group training phase, and after they're done you get the rank of corporal for NCOs, or officer trainee for the reserve officers. You come back to a unit and start training with the new conscripts who have stepped into service during your leadertraining. Nurge posted:I'd also like to note a slight clarification to the OP. The special training after alokasaika (boot or whatever) is more or less the same for most of navy guys as army units due to the coastal defence forces being under navy these days. Only the actual boat people get any boat experience in the navy as far as I know, and let's be fair; we don't really have all that many boats. The gear: The basic weapon of the FDF is the Valmet RK62, or some variant of it. Some formations get issued the RK95, and specialists get specialist weapons. You get two sets of uniforms, one for vacation time and parades, one for the actual duty. You'll also get, depending on where you serve, the really lovely old combat gear, or the marginally less lovely new combat gear, plus personal camping gear, utensils and other stuff. The living: You live on base, usually in a room with between one and ten other conscripts. You get a small allowance, enough for about a pack of cigarettes per day. Meals are provided by the military, as are a number of trips to your home town. You get weekends off usually, sometimes there are exercises or some dickhead requires you to stay on base for some reason. There are also personal vacation days that you can get based on your performance, and a standard number of personal days everyone gets no matter what. After the war is over: You get to go home, and if you're lucky you'll get called in for training exercises. Some people never get called, some have training every couple of years. The training is mandatory in theory, but you can get out of it with a good enough reason. You are required to serve until you turn 50 for enlisted, 60 for NCO/officer. Any questions are welcome, I have a couple of NDAs from my time in active service so I might not be able to answer all of them. Piisamirotta fucked around with this message at Feb 27, 2013 around 17:40 |
| # ? Feb 14, 2013 14:31 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 14:24 |
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How is it decided who is going to be an NCO/Officer and who's going to be a regular Joe? Is it only the tests and rear end-kissing? Do most people want this?
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 15:14 |
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No Butt Stuff posted:How is it decided who is going to be an NCO/Officer and who's going to be a regular Joe? Is it only the tests and rear end-kissing? Do most people want this? There's a grading system where you get points for tests, both paper and soldierly skills, an evaluation by your superiors and peers, and your willingness. You cannot be made an NCO against your will, but if you simply don't object they can make you one if you score enough otherwise. Also, if you want to be a driver really bad you have a higher or smaller chance of going to leader training depending on whether your branch of service has more grunts or NCOs doing the driving. Most people I know didn't actually want it really bad, but many ended up in NCO training anyway since they were good enough. It translates to a longer service, which is a dealbreaker for many people. From my experience about three quarters of the conscripts are indifferent or willing to go to NCO school, and the remaining quarter is dead set against it. Edit: There's a quota too, exactly X conscripts out of the company go to the NCO school per batch. The quota depends again on the branch of service, and how many NCOs and officers are needed for a wartime unit. Piisamirotta fucked around with this message at Feb 14, 2013 around 15:52 |
| # ? Feb 14, 2013 15:33 |
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Love the joint training excercises with you guys that roll around now and then (you didn't happen to participate in any of the cold responce joint FTXes by any chance?). How are the attitudes towards conscription and mandatory service in Finland? Are you leaning towards increased professionalization of the military like the other Scandinavian countries? Also, what's the deal with white face camo?  Scandinavians aren't exactly the swarthiest motherfuckers around.
Hovermoose fucked around with this message at Feb 15, 2013 around 12:25 |
| # ? Feb 14, 2013 21:10 |
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Piisamirotta posted:There is also a civil service, which lasts for 347 days, a nonarmed military service lasting 255 or 347 days depending on the task you're trained for, and the option to refuse service, which gets you about a month in jail. I assume there are other penalties associated with refusal, such as being a convicted felon? Denial of educational or other benefits? 1 Month in prison seems kinda light. Then again, I am not familiar with the inside of Finnish prisons.
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| # ? Feb 14, 2013 21:25 |
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Hovermoose posted:Love the joint training excercises with you guys that roll around now and then (you didn't happen to participate in any of the cold responce joint FTXes by any chance?). The attitudes among the general populace are really mixed, my experience has been that generally the younger people see conscription as a universally bad thing, while the older populace sees it as a valuable tradition. There's a saying that the military is the school for men. I think I'm somewhat exceptional in that my friends are really positive towards the military and conscription. There is a move towards professionalization, the size of the wartime reserve has been lowered from 500000 people to 250000 people if I recall correctly, and the conscription system in general is moving towards a more selective one, you can get a release easier now than twenty years ago. The white face camo is pretty good in snowy environments, like Finland in winter. A pink face shows against snow easier than a white one. It's a thing you do if you want to be absolutely as invisible as possible in a snowy environment. Not really that common though, I think, I never got issued the white face paint, while the green and brown ones were really common. MRC48B posted:I assume there are other penalties associated with refusal, such as being a convicted felon? Denial of educational or other benefits? The only additional penalties associated with the refusal of service are the social stigma of it, and the fact that your permanent records will show that you have spent a month in prison. It's not that bad from what I understand from some people I know that have done the refusal thing. It does have an effect when applying for jobs in Finnish corporations where the recruiters are old-school, but other than that it's nothing too much. We have comprehensive free education and other social benefits in Finland, and they can't be taken away from you even if you're a felon (welfare state and all that).
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| # ? Feb 15, 2013 05:24 |
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What's with all the different head gear? The guy on the left staring off seems to have a different style hat than the others, plus there is the random red beret in the back. Also, why do the two guys have flags on their uniform, but the others don't? And boots. WTF?
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 04:34 |
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Finland is probably the only country where you can be promoted in the reserve from Private to Lt.Col.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 06:42 |
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:What's with all the different head gear? The guy on the left staring off seems to have a different style hat than the others, plus there is the random red beret in the back. Also, why do the two guys have flags on their uniform, but the others don't? And boots. WTF? The guy on the left seems to have a model 93 cap (good), the other ones I think have the shittier m98 baseball cap. The red beret is the airborne one, so it might be that the dude is just some high speed operator and really willing to show it. Willing enough to "lose" his cap. The deal with the flags is more that the four on the right have the m62 uniform with some kind of a sleeve thing that I'm not familiar with, and the ones on the left have the m91 uniform (sewn on flags versus velcro, so the sleeve would cover the flags on the others). The rubber boots were part of the old uniform, at least in combat use. Still are optional. I think these might be peacekeepers and/or hired people based on the sleeves, and the fact that all their caps have the lion and not the bullseye. The varying equipment in form would not fly in the conscription training.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 07:34 |
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Hovermoose posted:How are the attitudes towards conscription and mandatory service in Finland? Are you leaning towards increased professionalization of the military like the other Scandinavian countries? In my own experience, attitudes towards conscription as a system improve after people are done with their service. gently caress you did mine I guess. The system is here to stay anyway unless we want to do like the Swedes and basically run down our ground forces and accept that we're going to be a military vacuum right next to Russia. Americans can imagine Minnesota trying to maintain a professional military numbering in the hundreds of thousands. The white camo paint is common in infantry units. Kemper Boyd posted:Finland is probably the only country where you can be promoted in the reserve from Private to Lt.Col. Haha, has anyone ever actually pulled this off? brakeless fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2013 around 09:45 |
| # ? Feb 16, 2013 08:51 |
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brakeless posted:In my own experience, attitudes towards conscription as a system improve after people are done with their service. gently caress you did mine I guess. :v The system is here to stay anyway unless we want to do like the Swedes and basically run down our ground forces and accept that we're going to be a military vacuum right next to Russia. Americans can imagine Minnesota trying to maintain a professional military numbering in the hundreds of thousands. At least Pauli Järvenpää in 2007 IIRC. He was the leader of the Ministry of Defence or something. After and during the wars it happened too, and some of the FDF lawyers I think. Not very common, even the reserve majors are pretty rare, and you have to be a major plus take the general staff officer course. Not sure if anyone has gone from private through the ranks that high, though, I'd think they were already reserve officers when they finished training.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 09:32 |
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:What's with all the different head gear? The guy on the left staring off seems to have a different style hat than the others, plus there is the random red beret in the back. Also, why do the two guys have flags on their uniform, but the others don't? And boots. WTF? IIRC this is from some kind of paramilitary competition held in Estonia many years ago, so the gear is really mixed and isn't really representative of real FDF. The team is IIRC from Laskuvarjojääkärikilta, an unofficial paratrooper reservists' club, which would also explain the one red beret. There is a mix of the old '60s and a bit newer '90s uniform. I assume the guys in M91 uniform are some kind of support for the competing team and aren't participating. This picture is outdated. Piisamirotta: In my experience there is a significant divide between urban and rural populations with regards to military service. Rural youths are generally positive while urban ones are negative. I think there is a slight development toward professionalization in the FDF but it hasn't really kicked off yet. This can be seen for example in the increased selectiveness in accepting conscripts for military service, and in the professional EUBG units that have been recruited for a year at a time (something unheard of before 2007). The FRDF international forces' recruits are also nowadays being trained for being deployed right after the end of their conscription. I think it will be quite some time before we see any regular units being comprised of professional soldiers, but there are certain tendencies for it. edit: Another good example of professionalization is the establishment of the professional SOF unit in Utti in 2005. I could maybe see Finland eventually ending up with a Norwegian/Estonian-style conscription military with one standing professional regiment/battalion geared for international ops (See Telemark battalion/Scoutspataljon). BlackCrabbie fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2013 around 14:07 |
| # ? Feb 16, 2013 13:58 |
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BlackCrabbie posted:Laskuvarjojääkärikilta You're making this poo poo up. That is NOT a word.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 14:05 |
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BlackCrabbie posted:I think there is a slight development toward professionalization in the FDF but it hasn't really kicked off yet. This can be seen for example in the increased selectiveness in accepting conscripts for military service, and in the professional EUBG units that have been recruited for a year at a time (something unheard of before 2007). The FRDF international forces' recruits are also nowadays being trained for being deployed right after the end of their conscription. I think it will be quite some time before we see any regular units being comprised of professional soldiers, but there are certain tendencies for it. Probably the biggest issue for professionalization is that according to actual research, our office corps sucks dicks. Main issue is probably the narrow recruiting base that the Cadet School has, considering you can't get in without being a reserve officer.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 19:18 |
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A significant amount of current cadets were reserve NCO's when applying for cadet training. They just need to do a small RUK-type course before beginning their studies.
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 19:57 |
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BlackCrabbie posted:A significant amount of current cadets were reserve NCO's when applying for cadet training. They just need to do a small RUK-type course before beginning their studies. Sort of remembered that this option existed nowadays. I even think it's technically possible to go to a course to first make NCO and then reserve officer after service. Still, it does cut down on the recruiting pool a lot, which I've heard is a bit of a problem especially when it comes to officers who don't deal with the daily routines of training units. (Incidentally, this is why the Border Guards are apparently the worst place to work at, since a majority of their duties don't relate to military-style duties at all and quite a significant amount of their upper staff are just flat out incompetent at what they do)
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| # ? Feb 16, 2013 20:45 |
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DrCuntmuffins posted:You're making this poo poo up. That is NOT a word. It's just as much of a word as lähipanssarintorjuntaohjus is. 
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| # ? Feb 17, 2013 10:31 |
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brakeless posted:lähipanssarintorjuntaohjus 
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| # ? Feb 17, 2013 12:05 |
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 01:55 |
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BlackCrabbie posted:A significant amount of current cadets were reserve NCO's when applying for cadet training. They just need to do a small RUK-type course before beginning their studies. About a third at least on my course. Not sure about the ratio of applicants. Kemper Boyd posted:Probably the biggest issue for professionalization is that according to actual research, our office corps sucks dicks. I wouldn't say it's the narrow recruiting pool, but the fact that being an officer is not a very alluring choice of profession for the best and the brightest. Also you can be an NCO as people have said, the recruiting pool is not really that small in actuality.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 06:44 |
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It's not just cadet school. I remember reading about the Force having trouble retaining young, talented officers. One of the problems mentioned was the seniority bound, inflexible structure of the officer corps. Now I can't say how truthful that is of the corps, but it could definitely explain things. Young, smart people want merit-bssed promotions, not waiting x years for some higher-up to retire so that their career can lurch forward.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 07:43 |
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brakeless posted:It's not just cadet school. I remember reading about the Force having trouble retaining young, talented officers. One of the problems mentioned was the seniority bound, inflexible structure of the officer corps. Now I can't say how truthful that is of the corps, but it could definitely explain things. Young, smart people want merit-bssed promotions, not waiting x years for some higher-up to retire so that their career can lurch forward. Yes, many of the best get out since the system rewards sycophantic behavior more than talent. The pay is pretty much more in most civilian side jobs too.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 08:26 |
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Inspired by a similar question in the Swiss army thread: Are there any weird initiation rites or traditions?
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 16:28 |
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Hovermoose posted:Inspired by a similar question in the Swiss army thread: Are there any weird initiation rites or traditions? In the cadet school there are several. Some of them are kind of lame, such as secret questions and answers, or bits of trivia you have to know, some are more active. I wont go into details on those however. The worst hazing has been weeded out over the years, there used to be several traditions which reminded me of what I've seen in frat movies. There's also a vow that you take, both as a conscript and then another as a cadet. Not sure if that's really weird though. Where I served as a conscript they had no weird rites, I've heard combat engineers had something, but not the details, and I think the navy has some traditions, for example for sailors who have crossed the equator. I don't know the details on those, though.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 17:10 |
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What does your navy do that gets them even near the equator?
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| # ? Feb 19, 2013 11:38 |
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brakeless posted:It's not just cadet school. I remember reading about the Force having trouble retaining young, talented officers. One of the problems mentioned was the seniority bound, inflexible structure of the officer corps. Now I can't say how truthful that is of the corps, but it could definitely explain things. Young, smart people want merit-bssed promotions, not waiting x years for some higher-up to retire so that their career can lurch forward. This is a problem with pretty much every military in the Western world. To what degree do the Finns see Russia as a military threat, now or in the foreseeable future? When you talk about hired technicians, are they essentially reservists that are activated for a period of time as part of a military structure, or are they hired and employed as civilians?
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| # ? Feb 19, 2013 11:42 |
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Chrieger posted:What does your navy do that gets them even near the equator? The naval cadets go on a training exercise where they take a long sailing voyage on the flagship. The exercise sails to a foreign country that can lie south of the equator, I think they went to Brazil a couple of years back for example. Snowdens Secret posted:This is a problem with pretty much every military in the Western world. The issue with Russia is pretty much split. A lot of folks, especially left leaning and young ones see Russia as not a threat based on several factors such as the cost of a war and the potential of the EU, and Finland lacking exploitable resources. The military does not officially recognize that it is mostly geared towards stopping any and all aggression from Russia, but in my experience the view of most soldiers is that Russia remains a threat as war is not always a very rational thing. The Georgian conflict in 2008 for example was a topic of great interest in the Finnish military circles. The quote in the topic is also a common joke in the military. There are civilians working as technical specialists, but there's also the engineer-officers (engineer in the civilian, not the military usage in this case) and the NCO corps that includes many technical specialists. The engineer-officers are engineers who have a military rank, the rank is equal to a "pure" military rank, but includes the prefix engineer. Their duties are also different from the normal officer corps, for example, they do not have as many training duties as normal officers do. The civilians rarely have training duties, and are often given basic leadership training and the rank of an engineer-officer or an NCO if they have a long enough contract and are willing. Neither the civilians or the engineer-officers or the technical NCOs are considered activated reservists, but hired military personnel. The activation of reservists rather than the hiring of personnel other than in training or rehearsal exercises would signify a national emergency of some sort.
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| # ? Feb 19, 2013 12:16 |
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Hovermoose posted:Inspired by a similar question in the Swiss army thread: Are there any weird initiation rites or traditions? Not related to initiation per se, but: In the FDF, instead of cocks, the decoration of choice on the walls everywhere where soldiers are being bored or taking a dump is the TJ number. For example TJ 36. TJ stands for tänään jäljellä, remaining today, and the number is the amount of days left of your service. The most effective form of therapy available to a conscript. Of course there are dicks, but they aren't merely drawn. They're handmade from stout northern wood. When going out on a field ex, you find a suitable piece of wood and carefully sculpt it until you have a leirikyrpä, or camp cock. They can be rough and primal, or lovingly sandpapered, coated with varnish and given to your training officer like the FOs on my reserve officer training course did. Here's an example, thoughtfully placed next to a roommate's pillow. 
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| # ? Feb 19, 2013 22:57 |
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So the FDF just released their newest presentational video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foipv7iVP-c
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| # ? Feb 20, 2013 15:04 |
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What a beautiful vision. The army might even have all the necessary equipment purchased by 2039.
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| # ? Feb 21, 2013 05:47 |
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brakeless posted:What a beautiful vision. The army might even have all the necessary equipment purchased by 2039. Yup, and supplied to the troops by 2050.
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| # ? Feb 21, 2013 07:22 |
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Piisamirotta posted:There are civilians working as technical specialists, but there's also the engineer-officers (engineer in the civilian, not the military usage in this case) and the NCO corps that includes many technical specialists. The engineer-officers are engineers who have a military rank, the rank is equal to a "pure" military rank, but includes the prefix engineer. Their duties are also different from the normal officer corps, for example, they do not have as many training duties as normal officers do. The civilians rarely have training duties, and are often given basic leadership training and the rank of an engineer-officer or an NCO if they have a long enough contract and are willing. Neither the civilians or the engineer-officers or the technical NCOs are considered activated reservists, but hired military personnel. The activation of reservists rather than the hiring of personnel other than in training or rehearsal exercises would signify a national emergency of some sort. Other than presumably better pay and advancement opportunities, what are the perks of being hired military personnel?
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| # ? Feb 21, 2013 15:04 |
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Snowdens Secret posted:Other than presumably better pay and advancement opportunities, what are the perks of being hired military personnel? The basic pay is, if memory serves me correctly, roughly the same for both in similar jobs, but if I understood correctly in my active time the civilians do not get the bonus for doing field exercises (a bit over 100 euros per day). Might have been that civilian personnel do not generally get to go on field exercises though. The bonus is a pretty large part of income in many cases, the basic pay is not that good. Better in the technical services, but still not as good as in the civilian world. The hired military personnel get to/have to wear the uniform and have a rank, which gives them authority over their juniors, but also they have to obey their superiors in a military fashion (not as strict in the technical services as in the regular corps though, the technical services tend to be a lot more laid back). The military personnel also tend to get more respect from the regular corps, and for some it is a point of pride to serve in uniform. The higher positions are pretty much only for military personnel, and the contracts differ in their terms. The civilians tend to have shorter contracts, and can be laid off easier for example.
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| # ? Feb 21, 2013 15:25 |
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I had always heard that Finland is a country that tries to keep to keep itself out of military alliances that could drag it into a war so I was wondering how the FDF views NATO, and how peacekeeping deployments for the UN are seen. Do FDF personnel volunteer for a peacekeeping mission or are they deployed according to whatever needs the FDF has at the time?
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| # ? Feb 21, 2013 22:02 |
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I Demand Food posted:I had always heard that Finland is a country that tries to keep to keep itself out of military alliances that could drag it into a war so I was wondering how the FDF views NATO, and how peacekeeping deployments for the UN are seen. Do FDF personnel volunteer for a peacekeeping mission or are they deployed according to whatever needs the FDF has at the time? The FDF is fully NATO compatible* and participates in NATO led missions (ISAF, KFOR, SFOR...) and exercises. Military personnel view NATO, from my perspective, mainly positively and the military probably wouldn´t have anything against further deepening relations with NATO. FDF personnel and reservist serving in missions abroad are all volunteers although it´s very common for career military personnel to apply for deployments at some point of their career. *Well, the standard issue rifle caliber is different.
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| # ? Feb 21, 2013 22:46 |
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Luuq posted:So the FDF just released their newest presentational video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foipv7iVP-c Uh, guys? Why are you shooting down Apache Longbows? Is there something we should know about?
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| # ? Feb 22, 2013 00:37 |
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Paddyo posted:Uh, guys? Why are you shooting down Apache Longbows? Is there something we should know about? Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. FDF doesn't have Apaches, closest neighbor who does is Denmark I think.
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| # ? Feb 22, 2013 07:22 |
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Paddyo posted:Uh, guys? Why are you shooting down Apache Longbows? Is there something we should know about? Well you can't only put eastern equipment in the video, otherwise someone might suspect something. Seriously though, the helicopter looks very CGI, so my money is on it being the cheapest effect they could get. Piisamirotta fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2013 around 07:44 |
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 07:23 |
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Suojelutiedustelupanssariajoneuvo
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| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:59 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 14:24 |
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Piisamirotta posted:Well you can't only put eastern equipment in the video, otherwise someone might suspect something. Finland has to walk the fine line between "We know NATO is our Huckleberry if Russia gets a wild hair up its rear end" and "Lets not help lodge that rectal hair ourselves". If I were them, I'd just have made the video with them fighting Cobra from GI Joe
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| # ? Feb 22, 2013 16:47 |
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