Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

I find the NYTimes calculator to be a total crapshoot. The rent/buy threshold can be either 4-5 years or 20 inputting any number of realistic rent, home cost and interest rates for here in Victoria. Once you go into the 3 bedroom range though, it's hard to get away with buying not being worth it after 5-6 years, even using conservative rent numbers and generous home price and mortgage rates.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2013 17:37

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 09:33

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Those seem like pretty tall orders for a condo, but I'm not that up on the market.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2013 18:38

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Baronjutter posted:

Here's a question though: what's the big harm if say you buy a condo for 200k and after a few years it's worth 150k ? On paper you've lost 50k but doesn't that only come into play if you sell? If you don't really intend on selling and are looking for a "forever home" what's the harm in a price drop, other than the hindsight regret that you could have bought it cheaper if you waited? Or does the bank do something crazy like demand the difference ?

There are a ton of problems with an underwater mortgage. It's not particularly dire if you can still make mortgage payments and aren't planning to sell, but even then it can be trouble. As far as I know you won't be able to remortgage or refinance the place (which you shouldn't be doing anyway, but it's an option if you're hit with, say, a huge assessment). There's also the distinct possibility that whatever market conditions caused the price of your house to drop 30-40% also impacts your earning power.

Cultural Imperial posted:

Are you really going to call a 500 sqft condo a 'forever home'?

I'm not trying to be a dick but if you're already this house horny, I bet you money you and your housefrau will be trying to upgrade in 5-10 years. That's why you don't buy at a market peak.

That's why I don't even look at condos these days. I know I want kids, most likely at least two, and I KNOW I don't want to raise them in a condo. What would be the point?

Fine-able Offense posted:

There isn't a market in Canada* where a price/rent analysis doesn't spit out a big fat fuckin' "no buy", so this is all angels on the head of a pin level stuff.

Also, housing stock in Canada has been skewed towards the demands of our current massive speculative bubble for like 5-8 years, so naturally if you have actual normal human requirements for your housing, you won't find anything good that's a new build. Like, duh. 350 to 500 square foot condos are like half the stock coming online in Canada right now (thanks to Toronto and Vancouver largely, but no exclusively).

Genuinely curious, is there a better rent vs. buy calculator than the NYT one? When I play around with it, even with very, very conservative numbers I can get the break-even point to be around 5 years.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2013 21:22

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Baronjutter have you paid any attention to the opposition to the Cedar Hill clay tennis courts? It's a pretty hilarious example of the NIMBYism in Victoria that you describe. It's pretty funny to see a small group of people fight so hard to save two dismal gravel softball fields that nobody ever uses because... tennis is for rich people I guess.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2013 19:24

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Cultural Imperial posted:

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/11/21/condo-payments-eat-up-over-half-of-this-womans-income-should-she-sell/

So today in appalling personal financial advice:

1) This 38 year old woman has negative net worth and an annual income of about 60k/year and a mortgage that costs 2/3rds of her take home income. Lady what the gently caress are you doing?
2) She recognizes her financial situation is risky.
3) Financial advisor knows that selling her condo now is the best outcome BUT a condo is a good investment! Besides, selling now, with realtors fees she'd have lost money! Obviously financial advisor understands that the housing market has declined.
4) FA thinks she should stop paying into her rrsp and tfsa to pay down her mortgage. Oh and reduce eating out by $100/month. Net increase in mortgage paydown - $500/month
5) FA thinks that the $350k condo is going to be worth $595k in 29 years.
6) FA recognizes that 100% of your money in one asset class is a bad idea. At age 49, she can then start diversifying her assets.
7) FA thinks that said diversified portfolio will net 3%.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/graemeegan

How much do you think Graeme make a year, giving out information like this to his clients?

I don't see how this lady's finances make sense at all and I think the FP is sugarcoating things for someone who is totally friggin' boned. She makes similar money to me (I'm in Victoria) and if I had almost $2200 tied up in housing I'd be in pretty much panic mode. Also, are groceries that much cheaper in Vancouver that $120/month for food is do-able for a single person? I can't imagine living on $30/week groceries, but maybe I'm just bad at them.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2013 22:35

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

In BC aren't tenants responsible for like, replacing light bulbs? I guess that could count as "tenant's maintenance"? Maybe? That whole renting expense thing is hilarious since all those costs (insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc.) will be demonstrably higher with ownership. Sometimes by a couple orders of magnitude.

It's truly amazing that they can show a graph showing some of the highest house prices since 1977 and state that it's a "favourable year to enter the Metro Vancouver housing market". That is some :psyduck:

right there. And people believe it! Amazing how many people still think "buy high sell low" is a good investment philosophy.

Baronjutter if you signed the contract, you might be SoL although I really have no idea. I would be very hesitant to sign bullshit "riders" on leases and I've at least heard anecdotes that landlords/property managers will withdraw them if you pushback a little. I think renters underestimate how much clout they have in general, especially if they have a steady income and halfways decent references.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2013 22:34

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Baronjutter posted:

Also I think what a lot of people will call "stagnation" may not actually adjust for inflation and we'll see housing prices eventually end up where they "should" be, but never because the sticker price went down, only because inflation went up. So like that 700k house today is worth 705k in 10 years. To a lot of people that will be seen as "holding steady" and they'll not flip out and continue to support the prudent financial policies of our stable nation and banking systems.

So basically if I want to buy something I'll have to wait 10-20 years for the prices to incredibly slowly correct them selves. Then again wages also won't keep up with inflation either so RIP.

Here lies Baronjutter
He never scored (a house in Fairfield)

# ¿ Apr 16, 2014 17:49

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

How on earth did the CMHC ever get to the point where it was insuring mortgage's on second homes? Anyone know the history there? It is such a patently retarded idea.

# ¿ Apr 25, 2014 21:22

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Baronjutter posted:

I'm not really a financial guy, but isn't income income? Doesn't matter if it's my boss giving me a wage, my mom giving me 5,000 for looking after the house for a month, or a long forgotten uncle leaving me a massive bag of cash with a dollar sign on the side? It's all "me getting money", it's incoming money, income.

If I get $500,000 in an inheritance that should be taxed just as if my boss decided to pay me 500k that year. What am I missing that would make this bad? Obviously it would bump me up to a pretty high tax bracket for that year, but it's still a huge lump of money no different than if my boss decided to give me a 500k bonus for wearing extra shiny shoes that quarter.

Well the thing that you're missing (and I'm not arguing whether this is fair or right or whatever) is that the estate has presumably already been taxed as income at some point. In the case where you inherit non-cash assets the deceased will have to pay income/capital gains tax as if they'd been liquidated and in the case where you inherit cash presumably it has already been taxed somewhere along the line.

Again, not saying it is right or fair, just that is traditionally the rationale for it. Same goes for capital gains being taxed at 50%.

edit: this just goes for inhertiances. No idea what the justification is for not taxing lottery earnings. I guess unless they expect to keep all that cash under their pillows they will have to pay taxes on at least a portion of it.

leftist heap fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Apr 28, 2014

# ¿ Apr 28, 2014 19:46

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

That's kind of a ridiculous graph on its own. Is there more analysis to it?

# ¿ May 4, 2014 20:13

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Good lord, they couldn't even jimmy the numbers (like with a big downpayment or something) to make owning the same price or cheaper. If you're going to lie about it then you might as well go all the way.

# ¿ May 7, 2014 16:00

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

That graph also doesn't show incomes, which really haven't kept up with the debt load at all.

# ¿ Jan 9, 2015 19:32

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Baronjutter posted:

Sounds like I need to stock up on model trains now.

Also I post a lot of hilarious stuff from the condo "booster" and general housing bulls on the Victoria/South Island real-estate and development forums I go to. It's supposed to be a normal cross section of the population but it seems to really skew right-libertarian. Maybe I'm just naive and haven't interacted with that sort of folk enough, but nearly everyone on the site will throw out "socialist" as a catch-all pejorative for any sort of politics or policy they don't like. If a centre-right politician announces they're spending tax money on basically anything other than highway infrastructure or a tax cut/incentive to a condo developer it's socialism. The weird thing is they seem to genuinely believe it. They won't just toss the word out there as a meaningless insult, they'll actually go into depth as to why the policy comes from socialist ideology and why it represents dangerous "social engineering" and "spending other people's money".

-Anything to do with bike or pedestrian infrastructure is socialism, cars are the preferred method of transport so any spending on anything other than car stuff is going against the market. Government spending other people's money on things they don't want in an effort to get them to change their lifestyle is socialism.

-Anything to do with the environment or "climate change" (usually always in quotes) is socialism. Climate change may or may not be happening but if it is the market would respond to it, and we in Canada will benefit anyways and climate change will probably be good for Victoria and it's housing market anyways. Also Victoria is a city, how can it tackle climate change all by its self? Thus any policy about emissions or energy use is socialism because it's attempting controlling people's behavior and spend their money (tax is theft) on things they don't want.

-Not approving every single condo tower anywhere and everywhere in the city is socialism because socialists are stupid idiots who don't believe in market economies or supply and demand. Socialists think we have an affordability problem (high housing prices are something to be proud of, poor people need to move to cities where their poor-person skills are in demand) but restricting supply of high end luxury condos won't do anything to help affordability.

-Any sort of design review or architectural standards for buildings is socialism because it's basically a politburo censoring art like in the soviet union (which killed a TON of people).

-All housing bears are socialists because why would anyone want a housing crash?? Only people who emotionally hate other people's success and don't have any equity them selves would be so petty as to cheer for a housing crash, and those people are socialists.

-Any sort of hint of caring about first nations issues is socialism because white guilt is an invention of socialists as are any sort of class/race issues. It's the government that hurt first nations in canada so the solution is zero government intervention, not more oppressive socialism. Also residential schools and basically everything the first nations went through were all products of socialism because it was the government trying to control people and force people to do things and take away their property rights.

Things that 100% are NOT socialism:
Tough on crime police spending. We need to spend more money on the police, we need to round up those homeless people they are hurting business!!!
Roads and highways, the market has spoken and we love driving, spending on roads is respecting the will of the people.
Tax breaks for developers and business. A wise investment in the economy.
Stadiums or anything to do with sports because did you know Victoria used to have an NHL team if only we'd spent more on our stadium maybe our city could afford some sort of pro-sports team and then we'd be on the map and the cash would come raining down!!!

A few pages back, but you HAVE to be talking about Vibrant Victoria, right? That place is a goddamn bastion of privileged fuckwits. I had to stop reading that place -- let alone posting -- because it made my blood boil.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2015 01:13

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Baronjutter posted:

Yeah. It maybe sort of used to have a better cross section, but the actual people running it are libertarians who love to rant about "SOCIALISTS" every chance they get. I still go there because it's a pretty good resource to keep abreast of what's going on in the city politically and on the development front, I just try not to read anything political or economic related because it's super blood-boiling. Did you ever post there or just read ?

I used to post there very rarely, but now I don't even look at it. Weirdly enough the thing that drove me away was how crazy against any sort of cycling infrastructure they all are. They hate cyclists a lot.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2015 03:48

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Eric and Ilsa are blowin' up.

Meanwhile the Globe has issued a correction. Eric is actually the hardest working man in North America!

https://mobile.twitter.com/globeinvestor/status/557279068404846592

# ¿ Jan 19, 2015 22:40

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

I find it funny that this is being reported as if it's a huge shock when people were predicting it at least a week or two ago. Lots of people pointed out that Polosz talk of rate hikes a month or so ago was ridiculous

Most people in this country don't seem to understand that the BoC only gives a gently caress about housing, indebtedness, oil prices, employment, etc. insofar as it affects inflation. Their mandate is inflation targeting and at some point even the most political BoC management has to act to meet that mandate.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2015 19:33

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

I don't know anyone who expressly planned on using profits from a home sale to bail them out of untenable situations, but I definitely know plenty of people for which that ended up being the case. Those people have typically struggled to keep themselves at sustainable debt loads their entire lives though.

That said I doubt there is any hard data on that exact scenario.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 20:32

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

I'm going to start selling "starter" mutual funds and ETFs as a way for people to "get into" the market and build equity before moving on to their grown-up funds. They will be small, worthless, volatile funds but hey they're cheap!

# ¿ Jan 27, 2015 01:09

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

blah_blah posted:

This one is pretty great. Underwater on condo and have student loans and about to have a kid? Time to buy a house!

http://business.financialpost.com/2015/03/20/debt-ridden-young-couple-in-vancouver-wants-it-all-bigger-house-kids-early-retirement/

That budget is something else. Liquidate those people. Literally.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 22:47

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Uptown really isn't that bad in comparison to other shopping centers. It's kind of a neat idea with mediocre execution. The alternative is poo poo like Smart Centers with an archipelago of box stores in a sea or parking, or another goddamn mall like Mayfair or whatever. It's dumb, but I really can't hate on it too much all things considered.

I'm torn on whether Whole Foods will do well there, though. It's an odd choice.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2015 22:39

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Baronjutter posted:

Not to post stupid facebook poo poo but someone I know who moved to Vancouver just posted a facebook thing about how the "haters" need to stop complaining about the cost of living in Vancouver and how she makes the medium income and gets by great and loves it there thus anyone complaining is just a "hater" or "entitled" or "doesn't understand the Vancouver lifestyle". A couple other people then replied saying that Vancouver is awesome and "haters" need to just move back to Victoria or out east where they can have affordable boring lives with nothing to do. Then another friend posted that she's about to become homeless because her rent has gone up so much and she hasn't gotten a raise in years. A few people then posted a list of all the amazing free things you can do in Vancouver which is why cost of living stats are bullshit because it never takes into account the free natural beauty unique to Vancouver. #WESTCOASTISBESTCOAST, stop hating or move but don't you dare let your imminent homelessness make you a vancouver hater.

Most of these people were reasonable understanding people before they moved to Vancouver. You know how converts to religions tend to be the most vocal and extreme? There's something like that with Victorians who move to Vancouver. They can never shut up about how amazing and exciting Vancouver is and get super mad if anyone has anything bad to say about it.

Vancouver can not fail, it can only be failed.

LMBO that someone in Vancouver would consider the East Coast boring. Ahahaha. That is loving rich. St. John's is a drug fueled rave compared to Vancouver's accounting convention. Seriously if I gave a poo poo about my social life at all I would have high tailed it back to Newfoundland long ago.

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 02:27

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Cultural Imperial posted:

Can we put to bed once and for all supply side 'solutions' to affordability are simply scams to enrich developers and the FIRE industries?

Never. Never ever.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2015 18:32

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Things are plenty bubbly in St. John's these days. It went through a mini oil boom along with Alberta.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2015 22:06

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

MickeyFinn posted:

I have been looking up some of these places you guys are talking about and I have two questions:

1) Why?
2) I think you guys were talking about the beach in Prince George that you vandalized as scouts, which is like 200 miles from the ocean. Do you guys call the lovely wet sand by rivers beaches?

Where I grew up "lovely wet sand by a river" would have been an improvement. Check your beach privilege.

# ¿ May 13, 2015 06:04

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

at that BoC news.

We have this radical new monetary policy. Instead of an inflation mandate we're going to set interest rates at whatever best preserves the wealth of loving house owning boomers.

# ¿ May 14, 2015 18:02

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Vancouver is boring and dull in a very intangible and indescribable way. It's like, the opposite of a place like Montreal or St. John's.

# ¿ May 28, 2015 21:35

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

The Butcher posted:

I think it's just that in a place like van you need to make your own fun more than waiting for it to find you, if that makes sense.

It makes sense, but it's just a semantic niggle. Fun doesn't just magically come to you anywhere really. Like I said, it's hard to describe.

Gorau posted:

I think the word you're looking for is soulless. Great parks, beautiful views, but a lot of Vancouver has this sort of "sameness" to it that's hard to describe. I usually spend at least a couple months a year in Vancouver for the last few years, and it always strikes me that despite the wonderful offerings surrounding the city, the city itself feels like one giant suburb. This is especially true of Yaletown.

I think that sameness applies to the people in BC as well. My GF and I are both from NL and one thing that bothers us both is how many people here seemingly have their identity and personality defined by the same 2-3 boring-rear end things. Yeah, hiking and yoga are neat but they don't make for much of a personality and it gets really tiresome to hear about after a while. I really don't want to hear about your goddamn hike or slacklining sesh anymore good god.

# ¿ May 28, 2015 22:36

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

1500quidporsche posted:

This was my main problem with it. The BoC treats the interest rate like its a throttle for the economy and just ignores all other factors. Certainly some adjustment was warranted, but the Canadian housing bubble is directly tied into the cuts that were made and in the long run its going to cause more problems then it solved.

It's not the BoC's job to give a poo poo about house prices.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2015 19:19

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Mantle posted:

I just moved from Victoria. The reason Foo is having trouble is because he charges $8.00 for a Viet pork belly sub.

Pretty sure the Bahn Mi is generally more than $8. Typically $8.50 + tax. That is the most affordable thing on the menu. $13 Canadian dollars for some drat beef + broccoli.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2015 18:36

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Canadian Debt Bubble: still don't know what the BoC actually does

# ¿ Jul 15, 2015 17:59

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Yeah I have a US vacation planned at the end of August :smith:

Maybe it's a good idea to just convert some currency now? Seems really, really unlikely for the dollar to bounce back between now and then.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2015 21:58

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Cultural Imperial posted:

Alberta insolvency rates rise as oilsands slump

hahahahahah

This is particularly rich in the context of all the articles that told us that Canadian consumer debt wasn't anything to worry about because insolvency rates were low!

# ¿ Jul 20, 2015 22:46

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Everyone I know who went to work in the oilsands is colossally bad with money. Not only did they move to Fort Mac and immediately rack up ridiculous debt on toys and fail to save a penny, many of them took their newfound "wealth" as an opportunity to buy a house back home (Labrador West) at peak loving boom. If you think the bubble in Vancouver or Toronto is bad, imagine spending $350-$450k+ on a bungalow in the middle of nowhere Labrador. Now imagine doing that after watching your parents struggle to practically give the same house away about 10 years ago. It takes a special kind of stupid to do that.

leftist heap fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jul 20, 2015

# ¿ Jul 20, 2015 22:51

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

http://www.realtor.ca/Residential/Single-Family/15319046/130-RAVEN-Avenue-LABRADOR-CITY-Newfoundland-Labrador-A2V0B5

$445k earth dollars in a town with one dirt road in from bumfuck Quebec and one dirt road out to bumfuck Labrador.

Or if you can't afford that, just $150k will get you a lovely :airquote:

mini-home

http://www.realtor.ca/Residential/Single-Family/15596430/3033-WALSH-RIVER-RD-LABRADOR-CITY-Newfoundland-Labrador-A2V2S7

# ¿ Jul 20, 2015 22:59

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Square Peg posted:

What the hell is a mini-home? 4 bedrooms and 1430 sqft isn't particularly mini.

Hint: it's a trailer.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2015 23:26

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

El Scotch posted:

Had I bought the house I was offered when I moved up there I could have flipped it for at least 100k profit when I left. :/

Hindsight, man.

My parents sold their house in 2002 for $80k and they threw in their 2 bedroom, furnished cabin (a really loving nice cabin too). You can't time that poo poo, don't feel too bad. It's amazing to see people who surely saw their parents go through a number of boom/bust cycles, strikes, threatened layoffs, etc. move back and spend almost half a million on something that's fundamentally worthless.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2015 23:29

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Baronjutter posted:

Some suburb north of Edmonton. She's a tough lady but coming from Victoria, Edmonton suburbs are a soul-destroying frozen/sweltering hell hole. She's huge into ocean stuff, rock climbing, trail running, general rugged outdoorsyness, and hates driving. It took her by surprise really, she thought she was ok with it, but getting an Alberta license just made it sink in that she's stuck there. I can't say I wouldn't potentially have a similar reaction at least once if I were in her shoes. Taking someone born and raised in Victoria and plopping them somewhere like Edmonton. It's like taking an elf away from their magical forest, they slowly wither and die or become something corrupted and evil (not unlike an orc). Alberta is Mordor.

This is really dumb.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2015 00:02

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

The mortgage is good!!

# ¿ Jul 21, 2015 08:06

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

OhYeah posted:

Why would you use a credit card if you could just use a debit card, meaning use only the money that you actually have on your bank account?

Cashback.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2015 22:13

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 09:33

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Baronjutter posted:

Do banks actually charge people to use cards? I've only ever used a credit union and they've never charged for debit use or had any sort of monthly fees. I remember when my wife needed to get a temporary BMO account, getting the account required a meeting and a ton of paper work and picking a million options and basically everything either was ridiculously limited or had monthly fees, card usage fees, and all sorts of limitations. It boggled my mind why any normal working class person that just needs a place to deposit their paycheques and get a debit card would ever use a bank vs a credit union.

Canadians literally do not understand money at all.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2015 22:58

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