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Nah it's good, this paves the way for a later king to reunify the crowns which should be a pretty fun war in EU4 
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Jan 7, 2014 00:24
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Viscardus said that what the religious and cultural maps show doesn't really matter and he will change them in EU4 to make more sense. So I imagine that some of the older conquests will be Buddhist. Ethiser fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 00:42
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I'm guessing the official converter just assumes nothing happened outside of the CK2 map that was different to OTL and just uses the standard EU4 setup for those parts? How does that work if you have sunset invasion on?
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Jan 7, 2014 00:45
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The Saurus posted:I'm guessing the official converter just assumes nothing happened outside of the CK2 map that was different to OTL and just uses the standard EU4 setup for those parts? How does that work if you have sunset invasion on? America is covered in High American tech group aztecs/incans/etc
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Jan 7, 2014 00:53
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That makes me almost want to convert a hands-off game just so I can be high-tech Inca.
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Jan 7, 2014 01:19
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KittyEmpress posted:I have the opposite opinion of Patter Song - it feels like you're trying way too hard to justify crippling yourself, and that you're going to end up running an EU4 game where we're too small to really play with any of the big dogs. Especially with the huge Buddha-king empire that is likely going to either be amazing from pure size, or explode on itself and be terrible due to tech penalties. I understand the concern, but you're underestimating both how powerful we will be to start EU4 (we will still be in a very strong position) and how easy it is for a skilled player to grow in power in EU4. Believe me, converting as a unified Italy would have been boring - we would have started out in a completely dominant position. Let me put it this way. Starting off as the Kingdom of Naples in vanilla EU4, I could easily become one of the great powers of Europe within a century, and the most powerful country in the world within two, and that's probably being conservative. And Naples starts in a significantly worse position that we do while having to worry about much scarier threats than we will (at least early on). We're not going to be too weak in EU4. It's also worth remembering that the starting scenario will be somewhat lacking in large, unified states in Europe. You'll probably get a better sense of it once I post the final State of the World (which might be a while, unfortunately). I'll spoil something right now, though: the Maidarids had a massive independence revolt immediately after finishing the conquest of Jerusalem, so they'll be going into EU4 as at least four separate states. Pakled posted:The CK2-EU4 converter takes into account tech and province improvements when converting. Sicily may not be geographically big, but it's been the center of one of the most powerful states in Europe for centuries and as such is going to have very, very rich provinces in EU4. I won't actually be using the converter, both because I can't and because I'd have to go through the whole thing fixing everything I don't like anyway. I'll be converting it by hand, so tech and province improvements will only matter to the extent that I want them to. I will probably stay fairly close to the vanilla set-up for balance reasons, but I will make some changes based on what's happened so far. So, for example, Palermo will probably start off with a higher base tax than in vanilla, to represent how important it has been so far in the LP. I'm not going to go crazy with it, though. Patter Song posted:We will have either 13 or 16 provinces in EU4 (depending on whether or not Tunis is part of us or is spun off into its own thing). Some of those provinces (the two on Sicily proper, Naples, and Cyprus) are very, very good. We don't own Tunis any more. It's part of the Kingdom of Africa (which may become the Kingdom of Tunis/Tunisia in EU4). Soup du Jour posted:The Maidarids' implosion is going to be glorious to watch, what with their zero same-religion provinces outside of maybe Central Asia. And Sicily'll be fine in EU4. Centralized, rich, and perfectly positioned to take advantage of trade in the Mediterranean. Actually, if I were using the official converter, somewhere around half of the Maidarid conquests would be Buddhist already. They converted their empire very fast in CK2 (Maidar's high learning probably contributed). I will be reining those conversions in significantly, though.
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Jan 7, 2014 02:15
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Soylent Pudding posted:That makes me almost want to convert a hands-off game just so I can be high-tech Inca. There's actually a mod in the steam workshop that is nothing but the default starting date EU4 map, but with the Sunset Invasion triggers set so the Americas populate accordingly.
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Jan 7, 2014 08:13
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Soup du Jour posted:The Maidarids' implosion is going to be glorious to watch, what with their zero same-religion provinces outside of maybe Central Asia. And Sicily'll be fine in EU4. Centralized, rich, and perfectly positioned to take advantage of trade in the Mediterranean. I'm going to imagine that a lot of people converted. Because this is the sort of stuff that gets people believing, an unbroken string of great victories like this must mean that the invader is favoured by the divine.
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Jan 7, 2014 16:12
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The problem with every game before V2 is that the religion and culture of a province are specified to be the most powerful and not the most numerous so there's no way to actually represent a small elite culture/religion ruling over a mass of unruly foreign peasants until you get pops. In the case of the Maidarids I imagine they kept a lot of the local bureaucracy in place though like the mongols did in China.
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Jan 7, 2014 17:19
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Patter Song posted:Bravo. We are going into EU4 in a strong but hardly dominant position. The best sort of position. We should take Tunis, Timbuktu, and the Ivory coast and then route African and Asian trade over the Sahara. I've always wanted to do that to skip Seville 
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Jan 7, 2014 17:27
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The Saurus posted:The problem with every game before V2 is that the religion and culture of a province are specified to be the most powerful and not the most numerous so there's no way to actually represent a small elite culture/religion ruling over a mass of unruly foreign peasants until you get pops. Well, you could represent it with a province-specific modifier and some custom events, couldn't you?
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Jan 7, 2014 18:31
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Pakled posted:The CK2-EU4 converter takes into account tech and province improvements when converting. Sicily may not be geographically big, but it's been the center of one of the most powerful states in Europe for centuries and as such is going to have very, very rich provinces in EU4. Is that documented somewhere? I read that the amount of holdings determines base tax, but when I import my Roman Empire into EU4 the province's base tax are unchanged from vanilla. Kiev with 4 holding becomes 14 base tax, Constantinople with 7 holdings gets 9 base tax, Brugge with 7 holdings gets 8 base tax, etc. Constantinople and Brugge had fully developed holdings, too, while Kiev had half the technology/buildings.
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Jan 7, 2014 18:59
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The Saurus posted:The problem with every game before V2 is that the religion and culture of a province are specified to be the most powerful and not the most numerous so there's no way to actually represent a small elite culture/religion ruling over a mass of unruly foreign peasants until you get pops.  By the time the Mongols rolled through China the 'country'* had been divided in two. The south was still ruled by the 'true' dynasty the Song, while the north was ruled by steppe nomads turn Emperors. Literally, they used their old customs to deal with their 'original' subjects but adopted Chinese customs to manage their new subjects. So you had a section of Han Chinese... accustomed might be the best word, to steppe rulers. When the Mongol came crashing through they hit this northern hybrid state first, only later taking down the 'real' Chinese. Under the Yuan, Kublai Khan rejiggered a huge chunk of the bureaucracy, established an ethnic hierarchy that went Mongol>Other (Arabic, Persian, European)>"Northern" Han>"Southern" Han. They attempted, rather hopelessly, to mandate that everyone stay in the same profession as their father.** New regional districts were drawn up, the role of the exam system was hugely curtailed (for instance, your position on the Mongol->Chinese scale changed what test you took), and tax farming became the new default form of revenue collection. The first Ming emperor, a peasant rebel, basically came in and wiped most of that slate clean as well. *The holy, timeless, eternal, glorious state who, through the Mandate of Heaven, shall always be the center of the world. Except for those dynasties we don't like, those were just brief interruptions. ** Everyone here being, well, men. Women did play a huge economic role at the time but it was very much tied to the house of the husbands so...
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Jan 7, 2014 19:06
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In my Russian History studies I read that the mongols developed accurate census taking, bureaucracy and taxation from their chinese subjects and then later brought that west to the rest of their empire, passing that on to their vassal princedoms and eventually leading to the Russian tradition of a state bureaucracy in service to a single autocrat, is that inaccurate? Tibor Szamuely 
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Jan 7, 2014 21:50
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They didn't just adopt the old Chinese system, though. They were heavily distrustful of their Chinese subjects and brought in quite a few bureaucrats from the Islamic world and Central Asia who were also alien to China and therefore dependent on the Yuan. The Yuan was not very assimilated into Chinese culture at all...the Chinese later on liked to maintain that the Mongols were heavily Sinicized to make the foreign dynasty less of an embarrassing period. The Yuan actually tried quite a few novel and interesting things economically and politically when they ruled China, and their cultural contributions were something of a golden age (Yuan-era Chinese opera, most famously), but the idea that the Mongols just assimilated into Chinese Confucian bureaucratic practices is mostly a myth.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:22
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The Saurus posted:In my Russian History studies I read that the mongols developed accurate census taking, bureaucracy and taxation from their chinese subjects and then later brought that west to the rest of their empire, passing that on to their vassal princedoms and eventually leading to the Russian tradition of a state bureaucracy in service to a single autocrat, is that inaccurate? Tibor Szamuely That one's complicated because there's really two Chinas at this point. But even so, the Mongols didn't finish off the Jin until 1234. It took them even longer to get around to the Song. ('Real' China.) They first attacked Russia in 1223, finishing up around 1240 if wikipedia is right. The timeline for the Mongol conquests is both bananas and unintuitive. The Yuan were pretty bad at bureaucracy overall, but I would say that it really wasn't uncharacteristic of them to take outsider experts to get expertise without empowering local resistance. I dunno about Russia specifically though, it's quite possible that they saw the Rus as more palatable than the Chinese all over, not just in the Yuan.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:35
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The Mongols ruling China were very different from the "Mongols" ruling Russia. The Yuan, despite being a small minority in China and adapting many Chinese customs, continued to identify as Mongol and retained close ties to their traditional homelands in Mongolia. The Golden Horde, by contrast was created by Mongol leadership and force of arms, but was never itself particularly mongol. It was essentially a large coalition of Turkic (mostly Tatar) peoples from the lands north of the Caspian and Black seas that had joined the Khagan's armies on their march west. When Ogedai Khan died, the Mongol elite abandoned their campaign in Europe and returned to Mongolia to pick a new Khagan. They may have intended to return to Europe, but they never did. Batu Khan, one of Ghengis' grandsons, was given control over a truly massive domain that stretched from Siberia to the Ukraine. Tasked with ruling over a hundred feuding principalities, none of which spoke Mongolian, Batu became heavily reliant on Tatar and Rus generals and bureaucrats to maintain order. The remaining Mongols married into this new class of technocrats and within a hundred years Tatar had become the language of court and Islam was made the state religion.
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Jan 8, 2014 04:47
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State of the World (1442) Across Europe, there is a feeling that the world is entering a new era. In the British Isles, Scotland and England remain the dominant powers, their heated rivalry displayed in their frequent border skirmishes and land seizures.  The new king of England gained his throne from his usurper father, and is eager to prove his legitimacy and his kingdom’s power.  The old king has retreated to Wales, and hopes to forge a new destiny for his adopted kingdom – one out from under the thumb of England.  Across the channel, England’s territories are increasingly threatened by France and Aquitaine, two powers with a rivalry of their own.  The French dream of the restoration of the great Frankish kingdom of centuries past, but the weakness of their king – both literal and metaphorical – raises doubts.  Aquitaine is the power on the rise, but they have their own problems, not least among them a child king.  The Iberian peninsula is, as ever, divided, though the steady march of the Reconquista continues.  The King of Aragon has recently inherited the throne of Portugal after the death of his brother Hermenegildo, putting him in an ideal position to unite the Christians of Iberia.  His most bitter rival in this ambition is the King of Navarra – his brother and Hermenegildo’s twin – who is attempting to contest the succession. War seems inevitable.  In the middle is the King of Castille. A member of the restored Jimena dynasty, he sees his family, not the foreign d’Hautevilles, as the true heirs to Iberia.  In the south, the last remnants of Al-Andalus still cling to life under the rule of the Algerian Maghrawavid Sultan. The host of the exiled Abbasid Caliph, he dreams of a latter-day Caliphate of Cordoba.  To his south, Ghana continues to maintain its West African hegemony.  Its king can only hope that this new era is one in which his kingdom can continue to prosper despite the problems it – and he – may face.  Over the last centuries, Scandinavia has seen the rise of Denmark and Sweden into significant European powers, creating another major regional rivalry.  The King of Denmark is eager to challenge his northern rival for pre-eminence in Norway and in the Baltic.  The King of Norway is his cousin and, though nominally independent, is a de facto vassal of Denmark.  Sweden, on the other hand, has just elected as its king a promising young warrior, who plans to restore Swedish rule over the breakaway Finns and conquer the rest of Norway.  The King of Finland, conversely, wishes to reclaim the Finnish lands still under Swedish rule.  Though not what it was a few centuries ago, the Holy Roman Empire trudges along, stable as ever, in the centre of Europe.  The new Kaiser is the Duke of Holland. Whether he dreams of territorial expansion or merely wishes to strengthen the internal mechanisms of the empire is difficult to tell.  To the south, of course, lies the Italian peninsula and the Kingdom of Sicily, flanked on either side by rivals.  Across the Mediterranean, the King of Africa still dreams of a Sicilian coronation, though it is likely that the opportunistic invasion was as close as he will ever come.  To the north, Alessandro’s brother may still be fond of him, but his nobles are not, and it is not hard to imagine the ambitious young king being convinced that the destiny of his realm lies to the south.  Further east, the once-great Latin Empire is increasingly threatened while the Kingdom of Hungary continues its expansion.  The new emperor has as yet failed to distinguish himself. Dreams of a great restoration seem less and less likely, despite continued non-aggression from the Maidarids.  The Empire’s greatest rival exists in the form of the Kingdom of Hellas and its young queen. Where the Latin Empire declines, it rises, dreaming of the conquest of Constantinople.  To the north, Poland and the Baltic states remain stable while the Russian principalities slowly become more and more irrelevant.  Each Rurikid prince imagines himself the true successor to Rurik, destined to reunite the feuding Russian peoples. The one in the strongest position, however, is no doubt the Prince of Novgorod.  The great threat on the horizon is Crimea, last great successor to the Golden Horde and the only major Muslim state north of the Mediterranean. Its khan wishes not only for survival, but also for the restoration of the faith in the north.  To his east lie the northern successors of Maidar. After the great khan's death, the massive empire he assembled slowly began to drift apart. Before long, individual khans had risen up.  Each imagines himself the next great successor to Maidar, but perhaps most dangerous is the ruler of the Volga Khanate.  Further south, the main line of the Maidarids retains powers mainly in its more recent conquests, including the former kingdoms of Jerusalem and Nicaea.  They are ruled by Aguchu, grandson of Maidar and a competent young man who was nevertheless unable to hold together the empire of his grandfather. The loss so much of the empire has driven the young man into a deep depression, and any hopes of restoring Maidarid glory seem impossible.  Most powerful among the breakaway khanates is without doubt the one in Persia, where a weak khan is effectively controlled by the newly-converted Turko-Persian elite.  After the loss of his kingdom, the King of Jerusalem fled north to Imperial Tripoli, the last outpost of Christendom in the Levant. His ambition is clear – to restore the kingdom at any cost, even if it means once again becoming a vassal of the Latin Empire.  Even further south are the realms still untouched by the Maidarid hordes, each desperately hoping that that state of affairs will continue.  The Kingdom of Egypt is in turmoil, with the king having been captured by the Maidarids during the defence of Jerusalem.  His neighbour, the Shia Caliph, is one of the great success stories of the last few centuries. From mere imams of Yemen they have united Arabia and restored the Caliphate. Where once the followers of Ali seemed doomed, the Rassids have restored them to pre-eminence in the Muslim world – and in doing so supplanted the Twelver Fatimids with their own Zaidiyyah sect.  Ledger Religions  The Most Prestigious Characters  The Most Pious Characters  The Largest States  The Largest Armies  World Map 
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Jan 9, 2014 10:32
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Interesting how all these Paradox mega-LPs seem to be heading towards EUIV at pretty much the same time despite having been started at very different times. I suppose the bookmarks picked had a hand in that.
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Jan 9, 2014 10:52
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And that's it for CK2. Or, well, maybe not quite. I am considering a bonus update at some point to show off a few interesting little details that didn't get much mention during the LP and won't really make it over to EU4. But if I do that it won't be for a while. Now it's time to work on the conversion. As I've mentioned, I'll be doing it all by hand, which means it'll be fairly time-consuming but will hopefully result in a higher-quality scenario (and it's really the only option anyway, due to the age of the game). If you're a fan of Wiz's Mega-LPs you will, of course, know about the beloved and time-honoured tradition of flagchat (or, alernatively, the much-despised menace of flagchat). We'll see how much interest there is in flag contributions, but I'll probably be putting in requests at some point if there are interested parties. That's not the only way people will be able to participate, though. As in Wiz's Azerbaijan LP, I'm going to give the thread an opportunity to help determine what's been happening in the parts of the world not covered by the CK2 map. I won't get too into details yet (in part because I haven't settled on them), but it's not going to be in exactly the same format as Wiz used. Instead, I'm going to allow people in the thread to contribute proposals or ideas of their own, then either implement the one I like most or pick two or three that I like and put them up to a vote. Again, this is just a preliminary description - don't go posting your comprehensive overview of alt-history China just yet. I just wanted to let you guys know roughly what I'm going to do.
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Jan 9, 2014 10:53
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The Rassids look like they'd be a lot of fun to play after conversion, it's always fun being that one Shia country and they're big enough to be fairly powerful in their own right but also border much more powerful states who are presumably going to be antagonistic due to religious differences. They must have a ton of non-Shia provinces since there's apparently only 6 Shia provinces in the world. E: Whatever you do in conversion, I want a Buddhist-Hindu-Islam 3 way fight to the death in India. Buddhists in the northwest (Maidarid conquests), Sunnis in the southwest (elites converted peacefully over many years from long term trade connections with the Islamic world) and Hindus everywhere else. RabidWeasel fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Jan 9, 2014 |
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Jan 9, 2014 10:56
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Viscardus posted:And that's it for CK2. Or, well, maybe not quite. I am considering a bonus update at some point to show off a few interesting little details that didn't get much mention during the LP and won't really make it over to EU4. But if I do that it won't be for a while. You better not remove Burgundian Galicia
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Jan 9, 2014 11:07
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RabidWeasel posted:The Rassids look like they'd be a lot of fun to play after conversion, it's always fun being that one Shia country and they're big enough to be fairly powerful in their own right but also border much more powerful states who are presumably going to be antagonistic due to religious differences. They must have a ton of non-Shia provinces since there's apparently only 6 Shia provinces in the world. Yeah, I have to say that the Rassids are quite possibly my favourite non-Sicily story from the LP so far. I actually started doing some research on the Zaidiyyah (Fiver) sect of Shia Islam because of it, and it's pretty fascinating in its own right. Thanks to the apparent failure of Shia everywhere else and the remarkable success the Rassids have had, it's become the dominant sect in this universe, which is pretty cool. And yes, most of the Rassids' provinces are various Sunni and Shia heresies, actually. This is probably largely due to Shia's moral authority tanking after the fall of the Fatimids. I'll be a little more generous with giving them Shia provinces in the conversion, but the Zaidiyyah are actually one of the more tolerant sects, so it makes a certain amount of sense. Veryslightlymad posted:You better not remove Burgundian Galicia Fear not. I haven't decided exactly how to handle it, but even if the name changes, they will have the opportunity to assert their obviously rightful claim to Galicia.
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Jan 9, 2014 11:15
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I hope you have Portugal start as a vassal or PU lesser partner under Aragon, because otherwise those borders are going to look horrid. Galicia should probably end up as a member of the HRE, just so it doesn't get swallowed up. ChrisAsmadi fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Jan 9, 2014 |
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Jan 9, 2014 12:12
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Serbia-Genoa survives! Too bad about Nicaea. They'll have cores on all of Anatolia, right?
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Jan 9, 2014 12:39
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Its probably just CK2 giving the guy a nickname and then it never going away, but calling a guy who lost the entire kingdom 'the Great' is pretty funny. I'm going to choose to believe its an ironic nickname and the entire world is laughing at him.
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Jan 9, 2014 14:34
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Wow, there's like no muslims left at all. At least they managed to hold onto Arabia.
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Jan 9, 2014 14:56
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How did the Maidarids break up so neatly?
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Jan 9, 2014 18:26
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Imma voting for Mengei in the Russian Theatre, mostly because in my game "Russia" was a Finnic Islamic kingdom, and a Mongol Islamic is the closest I can get to that.
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Jan 9, 2014 18:53
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Sindai posted:How did the Maidarids break up so neatly? Probably by loading up as them and freeing some kingdoms 
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Jan 9, 2014 18:58
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The Saurus posted:Wow, there's like no muslims left at all. At least they managed to hold onto Arabia. Remember, the religious (& cultural) status of provinces in CK2 are not canon. I'm very happy to see the Maidarid breakup; they're still a very interesting state (like the Ottomans, but Buddhist, and looking east rather than west!), but no longer preposterously dominant. This looks like it'll be a very interesting setup heading into EU4.
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Jan 9, 2014 19:25
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For flag chat, we really need one for Serbia-Nicea-Lombardia.
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Jan 9, 2014 19:38
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Count Humphrey the Holy. 
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Jan 9, 2014 19:40
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When do you plan on finalizing the religion and culture maps?
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Jan 9, 2014 20:49
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e X posted:For flag chat, we really need one for Serbia-Nicea-Lombardia. Sadly they seem to just be Serbia now, having been kicked out of Nicaea and Lombardy. E: Oops, forgot they still had Savoy and Liguria, but in their weakened state I doubt they'll hold them for long. Duckbox fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jan 9, 2014 |
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Jan 9, 2014 21:07
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Duckbag posted:Sadly they seem to just be Serbia now, having been kicked out of Nicaea and Lombardy. Serbia-Genoa-Part of Lombardy
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Jan 9, 2014 21:10
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Viscardus posted:That's not the only way people will be able to participate, though. As in Wiz's Azerbaijan LP, I'm going to give the thread an opportunity to help determine what's been happening in the parts of the world not covered by the CK2 map. I won't get too into details yet (in part because I haven't settled on them), but it's not going to be in exactly the same format as Wiz used. Instead, I'm going to allow people in the thread to contribute proposals or ideas of their own, then either implement the one I like most or pick two or three that I like and put them up to a vote. Again, this is just a preliminary description - don't go posting your comprehensive overview of alt-history China just yet. I just wanted to let you guys know roughly what I'm going to do. • A few early sedentary aboriginal states in Australia/New Zealand. • A native Chinese state (i.e. not Yuan or Maidarid) facing large revolts/civil war and having already "lost" Mongolia, Manchuria, Tibet, and Uyghurstan. • Korea was conquered by Japan and wound up host to several factions of the Sengoku Jidai. • A few early sedentary native states in what is now South Africa. • Early missionary work lead to a small Islamic state in the Carribbean or South America.
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Jan 9, 2014 23:36
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i81icu812 posted:Serbia-Genoa survives! Too bad about Nicaea. They'll have cores on all of Anatolia, right? The glorius return of Srbja-Byzantium.
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Jan 10, 2014 00:30
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A few random ideas, don't know how plausible they would be: -A syncretic Buddhist/Islam fusion religion, probably a heresy, in some of the Maidarid lands. Perhaps it thinks that Maidar Khan, not Muhammad, was the final prophet, and that the Buddha should be included as a prophet. -A different group ruling the area that the Aztecs live in. Perhaps the Tarascans,, since they halted the Aztec expansion in real life? -A theocratic Buddhist China, or perhaps merely a super-Tibet, led by some kind of monastery-based leadership? -A few Abyssinian colonies down the coast of East Africa, since they don't seem to have had much interest in the CK2 nations? -South India being dominated by St Thomas Christians for whatever reason (perhaps Maidar found them to be loyal administrators and they assimilated much of southern India, or in the chaos of a Maidarid invasion, they took over?) -Some kind of Somali empire to contrast with real-life's shattered, lawless Somalia?
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Jan 10, 2014 00:45
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Seconding the idea of a syncretic Buddhist/Islam fusion, perhaps based in Persia and/or Central Asia, despite how implausible it may seem. I really love the image of fusing the philosophical principles of Buddhism with, say, Sufi Islam.
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Jan 10, 2014 01:16
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