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What the hell did I buy? I think maybe it doesn't work. I don't know. I jumped on an Armslist ad and drove nearly to the Canadian border for this. I remember listening to the Talking Heads, Pink Floyd, yelling at other cars to get out of the left hand lane if they can't drive the loving speedlimit! Anyway, I bought this thingy:        I need to go get some food or something, I'm guessing LSP or someone can explain what this little Fritzy thing is?
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 05:23 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 12:21 |
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I was on the phone with my sister as I was loading this thread. When the pictures showed up, I said "aww yeah" under my breath. She asked what was up and I said "nothing, just looking at a picture of a pistol." To which she replied "you only get that excited if it is a tiny, obscure, foreign pistol. It's a tiny, obscure, foreign pistol, isn't it?"
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 05:53 |
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The Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol is real? 
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 06:04 |
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This is not possible. I refuse to believe that there are that many old obscure pistols out there. I swear there's a secret factory somewhere run by a a goon (LSP?) who reads these threads, phones in a custom order for a completely fictional, faux-aged pistol, and throws it out there for you to find. The civilian market for pocket pistols must have been HUGE in the first third of the 20th century. LSP's sinister factory aside, that's a pretty cool pistol. Initial googling shows it to be a .25ACP German pocket pistol. I can't find info on other firearms made by the same company, but I haven't looked too hard yet.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 06:42 |
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I momentarily thought it was one of those "blow forward" action guns, but then realised I was mistaking it with the Schwarzlose Model 1908. So is this blowback? What's with the weird barrel nut?
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 06:45 |
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:I momentarily thought it was one of those "blow forward" action guns, but then realised I was mistaking it with the Schwarzlose Model 1908. So is this blowback? What's with the weird barrel nut? Thread protector for a suppressor or screw on longer barrel?
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 06:48 |
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Looks like it's an aid to takedown: Also, maybe not .25 ACP, but some other .25 caliber round? 
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 06:55 |
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If someone wants me to translate this, just tell, I'd be glad to be useful, just for once.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 11:45 |
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WitchFetish posted:If someone wants me to translate this, just tell, I'd be glad to be useful, just for once. Please do, I'm getting some of it but my french is rusty. Also goddamn that is a neat little pistol.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 12:47 |
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So I have completely disassembled the gun. I think this was a gun that the last owner was fixing, or trying to fix. After pulling it apart I have identified one issue for certain, the firing pin is incorrect. It should be able to move freely inside the bolt, or somewhat freely, and it does not. I found a picture of a 4th model (like this one) disassembled and the firing pin is different. So that makes sense. The trigger also doesn't seem to work. This is a bit trickier because I can't tell if I am putting it together incorrectly (copying how it was assembled before I disassembled it) in which case the last owner had it together wrong, or if I am missing parts, or if the parts that are in it are not correct for the gun originally. I think what I have here is a really neat little paperweight/parts gun. Which is cool, I paid a parts gun price for it. I'm pretty sure to get this thing running properly would take more gunsmithing tools then I have. I know for sure that the bolt and firing pin need to be worked on a bit. The rest of it? Maybe. Hard to tell, but I would tend toward believing that would be case. Truth is I'm not terribly disappointed that it's un-shootable. It just feels so drat neat in the hand as it is, and since just cocking it bites the poo poo out me I assume firing it would be a very bloody experience
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 19:33 |
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Alright. Some of it is rather technical so I don't guarantee 100% accuracy, and I like to paraphrase a little but here we go : First Page, text on the bottom : "The Mann features a bronze finish. We have however encountered Mann pistols featuring a chromed or nickeled finish, but we cannot affirm that finish to be original or put on later in the life of those pistols. 3 different variants of the safety lever can be encountered, totally smooth, serrated (as in parralel lines) or checkered (as in knurled). The markings can also vary, as we will see on the pictures related to this article. Also, some variants sport a simple serial of 1 to 4 digits while some other sport a number followed by a dash and the number 20 or 21, which could be believed to refer to the last two digits of the manufacturing year." First page, field strip : "1 - Eject the magazine by pressing on the mag release located on the back of the bottom of the grip. 2 - Make sure no round is left in the chamber 3 - Unscrew the screw located on top of the barrel 4 - Take the recoil spring out 5 - Unscrew the cocking piece/cocking block (cocking piece is how I would translate "bloc d'armement", but then again it's "bloc" so... block could also be appropriate. I'm no engineer) 6 - Take the striker/firing pin ("percuteur" can mean both) and its spring out of the slide. 7 - Unscrew the barrel 8 - Take the barrel out of the slide. 9 - The gun's parts after a field strip" Second page : Text on the bottom : "(TL note : Kawaii means cute, but more seriously, a page is missing, so I don't have the beginning of the first sentence] in the 1910s, the 6.35 Browning (TL note : aka .25ACP) was powerful enough to work properly in semi automatic handguns. Its straight case allowed it to feed from straight magazines, while its small rim allowed it to also work in revolvers. The pressure it developped still remained reasonable (TL note : understatement of the century), so gun designers didn't have to bother with delayed blowback mechanisms. However, while this round could be deadly, its power was quite low, so many inventors tried to create an improved 6.35 Browning round. Amongst those inventors is Fritz Mann, who directed in Suhl-Neuendorf a tooling facility called "Fritz Mann Werkzeugfabrik". Soon after WWI (most likely 1919), Fritz Mann developped a doped up version of the 6.35 Browning, featuring a bottleneck case, now referred to as 6.35 Mann. Nowadays we wonder if that round and its pistol had actually been mass produced. The fact that no ammo collector on the planet can brag about having this round in his collection allows us to doubt it." Second page, small text on the right: "Serial number 20445-21, left side. Note the markings "Cal 6,35 Mann's Patente", and the letters "S" and "F" indicating the safety lever's positions. Also note the small logo on the back of the grip panel. Detail of the "Mann" logo. Second page, text in the black square : "The 6.35 bottlenecked Mann round, created by Fritz Mann. This drawing is taken from a Mann's Company Catalogue (TL note : I wonder if it also featured a lot of hats). The pistol and the ammo had to be ordered from the manufacturer. We actually don't know if this round was mass produced as no surviving round as been found in any collection in the world. (From White & Munnhall) From top to bottom : Left side of another handgun, sporting the serial 2787-20. The "20" after the dash might refer to the year of production. The grip panels, made of cast aluminum (aluminium? I never get that right), now have a screw hole on the front, not in the center, (TL note, the guy who wrote this article must have made a typo of some sort so I don't exactly get what he is saying, but it must mean something like =) unlike those in ebonite (TL note: a type of hard vulcanized rubber, apparently) on this model (TL note: the one at the bottom, I guess). On this piece the patents markings aren't written in german ("Patente" = patent, plural) like on serial number 20446-21, but in english, but the safety markings are still in german ("Feuer" = fire and "Sicher" = safe). Also note that the markings typeset (TL note, okay not really sure of what he is saying here) is different, and so is the shape of the safety lever button. This piece, serial 18903-21, features replacement grip panels and bears the markings "Fritz Mann Suhl Patente". The safety level is totally smooth. (Picture by Hermann Historica Munich). Other markings on this gun featuring a serrated safety lever and the serial 25301-21, "Mann Patente" (Picture by Hermann Historica Munich) Aaaaand I'm done. Most likely still needs some work (please point me towards what you think needs improvement), but it's 9pm and I still haven't eaten so whatevs.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 19:46 |
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Sixgun Strumpet posted:So I have completely disassembled the gun. I, on the other hand, love taking guns like that and making them shootable and am fully willing to spend way too much time with stones and files to make almost-but-not-quite replacement parts do their job. If you ever decide you're tired of your paperweight and want to part with it at a parts gun rate, keep me in mind.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 20:17 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:I, on the other hand, love taking guns like that and making them shootable and am fully willing to spend way too much time with stones and files to make almost-but-not-quite replacement parts do their job. Speaking of, how's that Ortgies going?
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 20:25 |
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SadWhaleFamily posted:Speaking of, how's that Ortgies going? Nicely. The problem was more complex than we initially thought, but not completely unsolvable. 1) the sear engagement surfaces are incredibly crude. Literally just a shelf machined into that plunger-style firing pin thing and that extension coming up from the trigger. The shelf on the plunger was worn almost flat, rotating it 90 degrees in its housing to expose a somewhat less worn edge was the best that could be done without getting into welding and re-cutting. I haven't gotten it back together yet, but I figure that should be a "good enough" solution for a gun that will get shot once in a blue moon. Ditto on the trigger side of that equation - the surface is just worn. Nothing to do there, but I'm hoping the plunger rotation fixes that enough. 2) The obvious issue with the stock and that screw hole being stripped out. Just today I shaved down a couple of toothpicks into splinters, filled the hole with wood glue, and crammed them all in there. Next stop is to file all that to length so it's flush with the rest of that part of the stock, then drill a small guide hole in the middle and re-screw the screw in there. That should allow it to bite hard enough to hold the action in. 3) The . . . lower plate assembly I guess I would call it? You know how when you hinge it up to eject and re-load there's a bottom plate that the sear projects through? Yeah, that thing - anyways, it has an odd bend to it. I'm not sure if applying downward pressure on the dust cover was causing the plunger to catch and work as intended because you were compensating for the loose screw, or because you were slightly reversing the bend in that plate. It's either a hosed up bent plate that's causing the sear to not catch, or it's a plate that was bent in the factory to raise the sear up a bit and make it bite. I could easily see "take this assembly, put it across the corner of a bench, and lean into it" being part of the fitting stage of manufacturing this gun. Either way, I need to get pen and paper and sketch out the relationship of those parts. Regardless I figure I should bend it one way or the other by a half mm or so to aid in that worn-down sear interface doing its thing. The tl;dr on it is the gun was made about as cheaply as you could make a .22lr rifle in the 20s and heavy use over the last 90 years has taken its toll. I figure I can get it working again, but it's not going to be an every day gun by any stretch of the imagination. Mechanical poo poo wears out and this thing is about 75% of the way there without replacing parts that were never designed to be removed after being riveted together in the factory. I've got a bunch of pictures of all the poo poo I'm doing, I'll post up a thread on it (or at least spam the .22LR thread) when I get it up and running again. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at Feb 18, 2013 around 21:06 |
| # ? Feb 18, 2013 20:36 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:I, on the other hand, love taking guns like that and making them shootable and am fully willing to spend way too much time with stones and files to make almost-but-not-quite replacement parts do their job. Will do. The thing is that I am like you to a point. I love to try to figure out how they work, but when it comes to actually working with metal to make a thing work, well, I'm just bad at it. When it comes down to just swapping parts with maybe a little tinkering to get them to fit I am find, but with guns like this I think it might take quite a bit of work on the firing pin to fix that, and then lord knows what all else. The other thing is that I like the look of the thing so drat much I'm thinking of just building a glassed in shadow box for it and hanging it on the wall. A shadowbox with a few silly looking pocket automatics in it would be a pretty cool thing to hang on the wall I think.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 22:23 |
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Man, I'm fascinated with these little early twentieth century pocket autos. There's so many different designs and manufacturers, I think I could be happy focusing my historical collection specifically on these designs. One thing I've always wondered though, what was the thing with mouseguns during that time period? There seems to be a particular craze in Europe, but there are plenty of American models as well. Was it a flourishing of concealed carry? Shifts in prevailing law? Fashion? A rise in feral dogs and vaguely aggressive ne'er-do-wells to accost good, honest, bike riding folks? What was the cultural element that created such a flourishing trade in little pocket guns? I mean, we've still got pocket guns today, and seem to be moving in the direction of ever smaller concealed carry guns, but I don't feel like there's quite the same focus.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 22:33 |
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El Funk posted:Man, I'm fascinated with these little early twentieth century pocket autos. There's so many different designs and manufacturers, I think I could be happy focusing my historical collection specifically on these designs. Mouseguns have always been a thing:  Ladysmiths, late 1800s early 1900s. See the Model 1 on the right side there:  They started making those in 1857. The only thing that was different about the mouse guns at the turn of the century is that they were semi-automatic, so they could have a bigger cartridge and still be narrow.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 22:39 |
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El Funk posted:Man, I'm fascinated with these little early twentieth century pocket autos. There's so many different designs and manufacturers, I think I could be happy focusing my historical collection specifically on these designs. The tl;dr version is that you have a big surge in industrial manufacturing making goods of all kinds cheaper across the board - this is the era that sees the birth of our modern material culture. Early stamped and extruded metal manufacturing getting cheap had a lot to do with it, as did casting getting high quality enough that it could be used for small caliber crap guns. Along with affordable bicycles, cheap kitchen utensils and cookware, cheap metal toys etc. we also see cheap guns become a thing for the first time. Seriously, compare the relative cost of firearms in the 1860s and the 1910s. Here is an example. A Colt Navy revolver cost $20 in 1860. That's about $500 today. An Ivar Johnson revolver cost $6 in 1910. That's about $150 today. Now, there are huge differences between the two, especially in terms of quality. That said, it was precisely those advances that I listed above that allowed the production of cheap throw-away grade revolvers. They might not be family heirlooms that would last 100 years of use, but they also (probably) wouldn't blow up in your hand inside the first dozen rounds. Boom, now you've got a bunch of cheap guns that even a working man can afford to slip in their pocket to fend off lovely muggers, drop that in industrial era societies that frequently don't have any particular laws against carrying a gun on you, and you get a flourishing of cheap pocket guns. Why are they all in mouse calibers? Because you can use the cheapest of manufacturing techniques when you are only trying to shoot a .25 or low-pressure .32. Not so much if you're going for .45LC or 9mm. Plus, the pocket/vest gun aspect.
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| # ? Feb 18, 2013 23:23 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:Nicely. The problem was more complex than we initially thought, but not completely unsolvable. Let me know if you need any pictures/measurements of anything. I have a rather good condition working one.
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| # ? Feb 19, 2013 02:15 |
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WitchFetish posted:Alright. Some of it is rather technical so I don't guarantee 100% accuracy, and I like to paraphrase a little but here we go : That was really helpful. Thanks! 6.35 Mann sounds like a holy grail cartridge.
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| # ? Feb 19, 2013 03:19 |
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I can't articulate all the reasons this gun is wonderful. It just is.
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| # ? Feb 21, 2013 00:47 |
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Sorry for bumping this, but I haven't checked the forums in a couple weeks so I'm a bit late to the Fritz Mann party.  All the info I know about them has been gleaned from posts on the Luger Gunboards and Ed Buffaloe's always-informative Unblinking Eye. Bummer that yours is broken. If you need any help figuring out what's wrong, I'll do what I can. It's funny, I have kind have been waiting for you to stumble on one of these. They are usually reasonably cheap and I always figured they'd be up your alley.
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| # ? Feb 23, 2013 17:20 |
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LifeSizePotato posted:Sorry for bumping this, but I haven't checked the forums in a couple weeks so I'm a bit late to the Fritz Mann party. Hah, I figured you would have one. Mostly what I need is to find out if its just the firing pin that is wrong, or if I am missing something else on the inside. Any chance you could take the grips off and get a picture of the internals from both sides?
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| # ? Feb 23, 2013 17:23 |
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Sure, I'll try to take some photos this weekend. Also, to avoid excessive thread necromancy, this gun you got:  You may have thought of this, but it would be neat to pull out that red plastic sight and maybe put some ivory in there like they did back in the day. Or brass could look cool.
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| # ? Feb 23, 2013 17:43 |
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I dont think bumping a thread from 5 days ago is necromancy
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| # ? Feb 23, 2013 17:48 |
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Huh, I didn't see the date and figured it was older. It's toward the bottom of the second page. Anyway, looks like Sixgun's been living up to his new avatar lately.
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| # ? Feb 23, 2013 17:53 |
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Sixgun Strumpet posted:Hah, I figured you would have one. If you ever need help making metal parts hit me up. I'm pretty local now, love hand making tiny metal parts with files and ridiculous amounts of patience. I haven't quite figured out what to do with myself in my new, cold, environs so I've got quite a bit of free time.
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| # ? Feb 23, 2013 19:28 |
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LifeSizePotato posted:Sure, I'll try to take some photos this weekend. Oh indeed. I just need to find some scrap ivory.
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| # ? Feb 24, 2013 09:47 |
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I don't know why, but I get the impression those would be fun to shoot. Neat tiny gun.
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| # ? Feb 24, 2013 10:03 |
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How are the sights? I can't really tell from the pictures.
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| # ? Feb 24, 2013 15:52 |
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I'm going to guess... ...suboptimal for anything other than 'panicked pull from your pocket and empty clip at mugger as fast as possible'. Which was kind of the mode for pocket guns of this age and type. My Ortgies pistol had a similar very, very rudimentary sight arrangement, and it was designed from the get-go with pocket carry in mind.
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| # ? Feb 24, 2013 15:56 |
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The sights are terrible. Once it's at arm's length, I can't even see them unless the target is bright white and I try really hard. Shooting it is fine, but you have to be careful about the "slide" biting you. It feels really nice to hold it up high, but that's exactly what you don't want to do. Here are some shots with the grips off. They don't reveal much, unfortunately:   Not the best quality, sorry. The bar behind the nitre-blued one is the trigger bar that goes back to the sear. It's what moves when you pull the trigger. Moving the safety from the fire position (the left) to the safe position (on the right) moves that numbered bar down about 1/8". Edit: This is probably the site where you found the parts diagram, right? If not, you should bookmark it. It's come in handy for me a few times with weird old pocket autos. http://www.vestpockets.bauli.at/ 
LifeSizePotato fucked around with this message at Feb 24, 2013 around 18:30 |
| # ? Feb 24, 2013 18:23 |
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LifeSizePotato posted:The sights are terrible. Once it's at arm's length, I can't even see them unless the target is bright white and I try really hard. That helps quite a lot actually. I didn't have that specific picture. By the way, when you get a chance could you toss me an email at sixgunstrumpet at gmale? I have something else on my mind.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 00:51 |
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Not as cool but it still shoots(most of the time) and its old. I picture it being made in a bicycle factory somewhere...
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:44 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 12:21 |
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Even if you ever got that firing pin fixed, how in the world would you ever be able to find this type of 6.35 mann round? to call it a pluto round would be an understatement.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 05:10 |
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