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I would absolutely back a Torment kickstarter, it would just be great if it had gameplay footage/screenshots and was preceded by another Wasteland 2 video or something.
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Feb 26, 2013 07:38
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Brian Williams (Lustmord) should totally do the background music and sound design. Like he was supposed to for the first Torment.
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Feb 26, 2013 08:09
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Just show me a screenshot where you have to scroll down to see the 14 dialogue choices like the original.
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Feb 26, 2013 08:09
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^^^ - Haha, yes. Torment was very much about the characters to me, rather than the setting. The Lady of Pain is one of the most badass personifications of mysterious force that I know of from my PnP days, but that aside, I literally can't remember anything interesting about the Planescape setting that stood out beyond a normal D&D or Ravenloft or whatever setting (Lord Soth is badderass than the Lady). I remember almost everything about the party (and Deionarra  )I played as, though.One thing where I feel this Torment Kickstarter should go is displaying interesting character art. Not just silly portraits - because jesus, that's really played out and it's very difficult to make a bog standard portrait interesting (no, Guild Wars 2 clothes don't count). Sure, Landscapes can be characters, too, I suppose, but usually they aren't drawn that way. I mean images that have agency in them, agentic characters. Where characters interact with one another or the environment in a not just stand-and-stare kinda way. For reference, I think that's one aspect where the Longest Journey / Dreamfall kickstarter thing is falling down on. It's a game that relies on the story of it's characters more than the setting, but all they are showing are a run of the mill forest setting and a pretty standard looking cyber-punkish cityscape. There's nothing special to a person who hasn't played the previous games - because a connection isn't being forged. Of all the character art they've shown, the purple bear guy and the crow eating a book are the two most compelling pieces, because they're actually doing things, not standing in a coma on a street starting at gently caress all. They're mostly catering to the people who fondly remember the games, and aren't really reaching out, viscerally, to the people who might not have experienced the games before. They could easily better do that with the (nice) words they're currently writing along with a visual reference (that they're missing out on). And in my opinion, many kickstarters are looking at the middle-run drop plateau as something to simply accept, rather than exceed at. I just see the opportunity to gain money and grow the kickstarter community being passed over. The people who've bought in have already paid but devs try to focus on recruiting the same people; a marketing shift never really happens. Gameplay footage at the start probably wouldn't be as important as painting the world and characters you'll be seeing. Or rather, gameplay might serve as proof that something is actually being worked on, but won't be as memorable as the other. Alongside painting the characters the dialog system should also be on display. Wasteland 2's had some pretty cool examples recently about branching dialog, but I'd expect Torment's examples to have incredible depth, not just a healthy spread of options.
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Feb 26, 2013 08:24
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Drifter posted:I literally can't remember anything interesting about the Planescape setting that stood out beyond a normal D&D or Ravenloft or whatever setting (Lord Soth is badderass than the Lady). The brothel of slaking intellectual lusts, a pregnant alley, catacombs filled with hyperintelligent hivemind rodents, an art gallery full of otherworldy pieces, a goddamn giant iron golem blacksmith who is interested in forging the end of times, a demon who set up shop in the skull of a dinosaur, A FORTRESS MADE OF REGRET. Be honest, did you even play far enough in to get to the clerks ward? Hell, even the mortuary is still one of the most unique gaming environs out there, even after the new paradigm of every game must have zombies.
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Feb 26, 2013 08:44
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Sizone posted:The brothel of slaking intellectual lusts, a pregnant alley, catacombs filled with hyperintelligent hivemind rodents, an art gallery full of otherworldy pieces, a goddamn giant iron golem blacksmith who is interested in forging the end of times, a demon who set up shop in the skull of a dinosaur, A FORTRESS MADE OF REGRET. Be honest, did you even play far enough in to get to the clerks ward? Hell, even the mortuary is still one of the most unique gaming environs out there, even after the new paradigm of every game must have zombies. Hold on, let me wiki some other things.  The brothel was where I met Fall from Grace. I remember Mantouk, the rat guy, and the Fortress of Regrets was where I did all the crazy poo poo with my incarnations that was loving awesome, but no, I had forgotten about dinosaur head but I can visualize it now that you've brought it up, (the golem was a character in the foundry, not a setting, dude), the museum with the weird stuff in the beginning was something I had forgotten; I remember the memory stones in the sensorium more because of what I learned than that they existed as sensory stones. No, I pretty much remember the characters and their stories more than what the locations looked like. I do remember that awful maze with nordrom, though. Bear in mind, I'm talking about a first look connecting with an audience that might not be as aware of the game as people who can rattle off fifteen locations and characters in a minute. And I never said locations weren't important. All that talk of you insinuating my not having played the game and you only read my first two sentences, what the heck, buddy? Drifter fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 09:02
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Drifter posted:Hold on, let me wiki some other things. Here's the thing, I didn't have to look any of that up because the setting stuck with me, as much as anything else about the game. I'm sorry they didn't sink in as deeply for you. I would suggest, maybe, smoking a ton of pot while playing through it again. And the golem wasn't in the foundry, he was a part of his siege tower, so he's technically both a character and a setting.
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Feb 26, 2013 09:08
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Sizone posted:Here's the thing, I didn't have to look any of that up because the setting stuck with me, as much as anything else about the game. I'm sorry they didn't sink in as deeply for you. I would suggest, maybe, smoking a ton of pot while playing through it again. And the golem wasn't in the foundry, he was a part of his siege tower, so he's technically both a character and a setting. What are you actually trying to argue with me about here? Why are your jimmies rustled?
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Feb 26, 2013 09:10
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Brother None posted:I don't blame you. Heck, can't even pretend to blame you! $100 is a significant sum (let alone over). All I can ask is you keep an open mind and an eye on our progress and see if we can't grab your attention at some point. Honestly, I feel the ideas our core team has and the pitch we're going to present are pretty drat strong, and I'd hope our current working on WL2 isn't held too much against this pitch. Not that I don't understand hesitancy or skepticism, I do, just sayin', give us a fair chance. I'm not writing it off, I'm just saying the pitch is going to have to blow me away before I'm willing to pledge. Which is kind of odd if you think about it because by definition I pledged to Wasteland 2 with less information about InXile's credentials that I'm going to have going into Torment, but at that point InXile didn't owe me anything. Even though I like what I've been seeing, this is asking me to take a second gamble without seeing how the first one paid off. Still, I actually am quite interested in what I've heard so far - I even think the differences could work in the game's favour. Monte Cook is a bit of a red flag after I saw his quotes about designing 3rd to have intentional traps for new players, but if nothing else the setting looks stunning. That said, some more Wasteland 2 videos closer to time wouldn't go amiss. So I'll see.
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Feb 26, 2013 09:11
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While I don't think the setting of the game was expressly poor or unoriginal, I'm inclined to agree with Drifter on principle. Good characters - complicated, fun, interesting, moving - can make even the dullest places seem new and vibrant and special. Characters make and break roleplaying games for the player; I overlooked the inherent stupidity of Mass Effect (oh no the squid borg are coming) because I cared about the people in it, and have refused to play a number of JRPGs no matter how much I like the genre or might enjoy the gameplay because I can read a summary or look at the box and figure out that all the characters are cliches from older games and anime that range from boring to repulsive. Also a sentient building that communicates intent is clearly a character
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Feb 26, 2013 09:19
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Drifter posted:What are you actually trying to argue with me about here? Why are your jimmies rustled? That a Planescape setting fails to offer anything unique compared to other D'n'D settings. Why you gotta go and rustle my jimmies like that?
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Feb 26, 2013 09:20
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I imagine Monte Cook wanted the name of his system in the title of the game somewhere, and "[Noun] of [Funny Word]" is hardly a beyond-the-pale construction for fantasy gaming. Posts of Quarex. While I appreciate the idea that I am being unrealistic in my support for this game, every time I have thought to myself "well, that was probably the most excited I am ever going to feel about Wasteland 2" the development team has brought out something else that really showed me how much they were Doing It Right and renewed/increased my excitement level. And how stupid would they have to be to have been hearing all these things about why people loved Planescape: Torment for the last nearly-15 years and be like "you know what people want, is a gritty tactical combat reboot that simplifies dialogue in favor of more and larger hammers." They have to know that Kickstarter Fatigue(tm) seems to be a real thing and that they have to really blow people away with the design rather than Romero-Hall-Braithwaiteing their chance away. Clearly the naysayers and the yeasayers should just all abandon the thread and let the mehsayers debate things amongst themselves.
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Feb 26, 2013 09:34
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Sizone posted:That a Planescape setting fails to offer anything unique compared to other D'n'D settings. Why you gotta go and rustle my jimmies like that? Okay, so long as we aren't actually e-fighting (iFighting?) or anything then I'm cool.    I guess...Here, I mentioned Ravenloft (for better or worse) as a setting because (according to those silly books I devoured as a child) it was a land that had a personality - an agency all its own. It was evil and spiteful and it twisted your nature and corrupted you and its mists wouldn't let you escape it. The setpieces were kinda boring Transylvania in the 1700s and whatever, but as a  plane of existence it was memorable because of its reptilian drive. So the setting became a character - thus, memorable.Planescape had cool and unique setpieces, but for me the character agency is what I remember the most, because that's just how I do things. Like, the Fortress of Regret was cool, but it's where The Nameless One's immortal incarnations existed and where he learned just how much more of an INCREDIBLE douchebag he was. By itself, the location was of secondary value to me. But I'm not disparaging the game, it was fantastic, I really liked the art and we would all have lost out had we not had those creative people working to put together those really cool game environments. And Quarex, I totally dig what you're saying. That's why I tried to offer a suggestion from my personal point of view for Kickstarter stuff rather than keep on saying how well or how poorly I thought the Torment Kickstarter would go. I think we need less yay- or naysayers and just more constructive criticism. Whether it's worth it for them to take in, is up to them, but it makes for better discussion. edit:  Mass Effect
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Feb 26, 2013 09:48
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Great Rumbler posted:I've been thinking about the theme for Torment 2 "What is a man's life worth?" Obviously, one of the most popular examples of a work that posed and explored that question is It's a Wonderful Life. George believes that his wife is worthless [or at least worth less than the amount of his life insurance] I hate to be immature but this slip is hilarious
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Feb 26, 2013 09:58
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Adraeus posted:No, I think they should get rid of the subtitle. It's too late to complain about the name of the setting, so I won't. 1) It is a Torment game (that is how they are moving forward with the branding) 2) It is attached to Numenera 3) The Tides (meta-idea and game mechanic) will be a part of the game experience "Torment: [TITLE]" is a perfectly fine way to start a new (hopefully) successful and ongoing line of stories. (Maybe we can call the original game "Torment: The Nameless One" (or whatever) if Torment actually becomes a series.)
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Feb 26, 2013 13:16
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If anything, it's worth it for seeing how personally offended people are getting. As if Brian Fargo was their best friend asking them to borrow another 50 bucks. Whoah bro, you still haven't paid me back for the 50 bucks I let you borrow last week. How dare you!
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Feb 26, 2013 13:53
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FRINGE posted:(Maybe we can call the original game "Torment: The Nameless One" (or whatever) if Torment actually becomes a series.) The first game is actually "Planescape: Torment", I think.
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Feb 26, 2013 13:54
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The_Frag_Man posted:The first game is actually "Planescape: Torment", I think. 
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Feb 26, 2013 14:03
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SaucyLoggins posted:If anything, it's worth it for seeing how personally offended people are getting. As if Brian Fargo was their best friend asking them to borrow another 50 bucks. Whoah bro, you still haven't paid me back for the 50 bucks I let you borrow last week. How dare you! Yeah, some of the reactions here are a little...strange. I mean, if you trusted Fargo enough to put up your cash on Wasteland 2, why suddenly balk at even the idea of him wanting to do another roughly a year later? I can understand being cautious and wanting to hear a strong pitch first, but geez, it's not like he's asking for more money to finish up W2 or some other shady thing. But please do show us more of Wasteland 2, because I definitely didn't get enough the first time.
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Feb 26, 2013 15:52
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FRINGE posted:They have not claimed its a 'reboot' in the way you implied. "Torment: Tides of Numenera continues the thematic legacy of the critically acclaimed Planescape: Torment." They've attached Planescape: Torment to everything they've communicated about the game. The message is clear: "Fans of Planescape: Torment, Torment is back!" They're most definitely billing Torment as a reboot. Torment is Battlestar Galactica vs. Battlestar Galactica. FRINGE posted:1) It is a Torment game (that is how they are moving forward with the branding) Torment is not "attached" to Numenera; it is Numenera. Torment is a Numenera game with Planescape: Torment-inspired themes. Hell, the antagonist (or perhaps alter ego) is essentially a carbon copy of The Nameless One with a slightly different flavor. "One of these humans discovers a way to use the numenera to grow strong, to cheat death, to skip across the face of centuries in a succession of bodies. But he discovers an unexpected side effect: You." In the end, the "Torment" name, like the revived Black Isle Studios, is just a name and their hope is that a bit of the magic that made Planescape: Torment special (read: fans with wallets) will rub off on this game. FRINGE posted:"Torment: [TITLE]" is a perfectly fine way to start a new (hopefully) successful and ongoing line of stories. Actually, it's not. Not in this case. They're trying to get us excited about playing another game in the world of Planescape: Torment, despite the fact that we clearly won't be playing such a game, after Planescape's long absence from store shelves. "Torment" alone is not just fine; it's ideal. There's literally nothing else needed because that says everything about how they want Planescape: Torment fans to make their purchase decisions. Honestly though, even ethically, the game should be called "Numenera: The Ninth World" or just "The Ninth World". Adraeus fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 15:56
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I hope in this game I can kill every NPC I meet, like in New Vegas one of the developers said something in the lines of: "We've made it possible that even if a crazy guy with a flamethrower kills everything he sees he can still finish the game"
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Feb 26, 2013 16:07
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Adraeus posted:In the end, the "Torment" name, like the revived Black Isle Studios, is just a name and their hope is that a bit of the magic that made Planescape: Torment special (read: fans with wallets) will rub off on this game. Torment: Tides of Numenera is most of a band getting back together under a slightly different name because they couldn't get the rights to the old name. The new Black Isle is just a tribute band. Great Rumbler fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 16:12
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Adraeus posted:"One of these humans discovers a way to use the numenera to grow strong, to cheat death, to skip across the face of centuries in a succession of bodies. But he discovers an unexpected side effect: You." Makes me think that this game is going to be a (spoiler for Planescape: Torment finale) Transendent One simulator. Twisting the structure of the original game on its head. That'd be a pretty neat way of dealing with it. I also reckon the game should probably drop the Torment part from the name entirely. Just be Tides of Numenara. Rolls better off the tongue.
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Feb 26, 2013 16:13
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Open Source Idiom posted:I also reckon the game should probably drop the Torment part from the name entirely. Just be Tides of Numenara. Rolls better off the tongue. Considering the fact that attaching 'Torment' will make up a non-trivial part of their fundraising $$$ and get them a lot of extra PR, I can't really see that happening. 
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Feb 26, 2013 16:16
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Adraeus posted:They've attached Planescape: Torment to everything they've communicated about the game. The message is clear: "Fans of Planescape: Torment, Torment is back!" They're most definitely billing Torment as a reboot. They are using "Torment" as their property. In the future they could easily use the thematic premise of Torment and set it in it Grimjacks Cynosure (which is also similar to Sigil), Dantes Inferno, some kind of Dr Who knockoff, or any number of settings. As long as the writing and games succeed, and they maintain control over the Torment concept, they are not stuck with anything. Adraeus posted:Torment is not "attached" to Numenera; it is Numenera. quote:Torment: Tides of Numenera™ continues the thematic legacy of the critically acclaimed Planescape: Torment™. Set in Monte Cook's new tabletop role-playing world, Numenera™, the newest Torment asks: What does one life matter?
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Feb 26, 2013 16:26
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Theyre being pretty quick about responding and editing ideas over here: https://torment.uservoice.com/forums/194582-announcements-community-faq regarding ideas for the kickstarter and post-kickstarter add-on options.
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Feb 26, 2013 20:57
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FRINGE posted:They are using "Torment" as their property. In the future they could easily use the thematic premise of Torment and set it in it Grimjacks Cynosure (which is also similar to Sigil), Dantes Inferno, some kind of Dr Who knockoff, or any number of settings. As long as the writing and games succeed, and they maintain control over the Torment concept, they are not stuck with anything. inXile's claim that this game will "continue the thematic legacy" of Planescape: Torment would be like Pete Best claiming that his next solo album will "continue the thematic legacy" of The Beatles because his songs will cover the same themes of love and politics. The themes of Planescape: Torment, whatever they may be, are not protected intellectual properties. Consequently, Torment is inspired by, not based on, Planescape: Torment, and is a completely new, unique, and different game that really has nothing at all to do with Planescape: Torment, sparing a few of the same developers. One would think that they're using part of the name, too, but well, not really. The two names share the word "torment," but while RPG Codex's headline "Brian Fargo has acquired the rights to Torment" led people to believe that Fargo purchased the rights to the name from someone else, he didn't; he actually just filed an application for a new trademark. So, to clarify, Torment is not a reboot of the franchise or a reimagining of Planescape: Torment, but inXile wants us to believe that this game is a reboot or, at least, is somehow related when it's actually not. And, again, "Numenera: The Ninth World" or just "The Ninth World" would be much better, more honest names (despite the fact that I really hate the name "Numenera".)
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Feb 26, 2013 23:58
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Adraeus posted:inXile's claim that this game will "continue the thematic legacy" of Planescape: Torment would be like Pete Best claiming that his next solo album will "continue the thematic legacy" of The Beatles because his songs will cover the same themes of love and politics. I don't know that I'd say that he wasn't entitled to do that if the works were close enough. When The Smiths broke up, and Morrissey started doing solo work about loneliness and politics, I'd definitely say he was "continuing the thematic legacy" of The Smiths. So if you have a clear thematic link (be that reincarnation, self-discovery, whatever) and some of the original team, I think you're totally allowed to say that what you're making is a thematic sequel to one of your previous games, and use similar branding. Whether or not they live up to the name, we'll see further down the line, but I think they have a perfectly good claim to it. EDIT: I had a complete brain fail there and forgot that Best wasn't one of the Beatles proper, but I still think my Morrissey example makes my point. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 00:34
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FRINGE posted:"Torment" is the thematic root of the games. This one is set in Numenera. This is correct. inXile knew they wanted to do a Torment game, one headed by PS:T's "second designer" (see here) Colin McComb, and they landed on Numenera as the setting after some deliberation, including checking with Hasbro/WotC for licensing Planescape. That's the process as it happened. We didn't set out to make a Numenera game and decided to slap Torment on it. It's certainly a "weird" concept, and I don't think it's all that common in video gaming, but it's not a reboot or a sequel, it is setting up for what we can only hope will be a long line of thematic successors, set in different places and exploring different questions. There's quite a few people involved on this that were involved in either Planescape: Torment or Planescape, a few revealed, a few yet to come. Brother None fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 00:39
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Brother None posted:There's quite a few people involved on this that were involved in either Planescape: Torment or Planescape, a few revealed, a few yet to come. I'm kind of baffled at all the negativity (not just here either) :/ Planescape: Torment wasn't about the D&D mechanics, or even setting (Planescape is hardly unique in using multiple worlds like that and it played fast & lose with 3.0 mechanics) anymore than the Sandman comics were about the DC universe. The quality of the writing concerns me (random philosophical side tangents, and then characters, and then a weird world setting, in that order), sure, but until I see differently I'm pretty hopeful (yes, even if it's just based on Bard's Tale + a few of the old Black Isle people). edit: Oops! V True that. Mixed it up with IWD2. Noricae fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Feb 28, 2013 |
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Feb 28, 2013 02:09
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Noricae posted:(Planescape ... played fast & lose with 3.0 mechanics)
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Feb 28, 2013 02:19
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Noricae posted:I'm kind of baffled at all the negativity (not just here either) :/ Planescape: Torment wasn't about the D&D mechanics, or even setting (Planescape is hardly unique in using multiple worlds like that and it played fast & lose with 3.0 mechanics) anymore than the Sandman comics were about the DC universe. The quality of the writing concerns me (random philosophical side tangents, and then characters, and then a weird world setting, in that order), sure, but until I see differently I'm pretty hopeful (yes, even if it's just based on Bard's Tale + a few of the old Black Isle people). I think people are just really cautious about anyone making a sequel to a beloved franchise. Afraid that it's going to be a crazy, stupid cash in like the XCOM shooter, or something else equally blasphemous. But frankly, if you wanted to cash in on a franchise it seems to me that Planescape: Torment is amongst the very LAST franchises anyone would attempt to cash in on. It has a lot of nerd cred, but I think sales were pretty poor, it's insanely text heavy (even Avellone apparently thinks TOO text heavy), and has way, way less mass appeal then something like Post Apocalyptic Wasteland 2. It may still be poo poo, and if they have the writing chops to pull it off is an open question, but my gut feeling is that anyone who is even interested in trying to make a Torment 2 almost certainly has to have their heart in the right place, and that makes me willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Then again, I don't hold Planescape to quite the same level of worship as some. It was a great game, but it doesn't top my list of favorite RPGs or anything. I was always annoyed that my choices and such didn't really have any affect on the final ending. You always wound up tromping off to that hell war. It was not at all the ending I was picturing for MY Nameless One. I do hope a new Torment game would give us more ability to define who we are and much more in the way of alternate endings.
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Feb 28, 2013 02:33
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Fintilgin posted:my gut feeling is that anyone who is even interested in trying to make a Torment 2 almost certainly has to have their heart in the right place, and that makes me willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Feb 28, 2013 02:53
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I think a lot of the negativity is because torment was such a story and character-driven game and since videogame haven't exactly made leaps and bounds in those areas (and some would argue they've even regressed) this becomes a cause of concern. I'm optimistic. I only hope they don't do the whole "good guy vs. bad guy" with some moral quandaries sprinkled here and there.
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Feb 28, 2013 02:57
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Red Mundus posted:I think a lot of the negativity is because torment was such a story and character-driven game and since videogame haven't exactly made leaps and bounds in those areas (and some would argue they've even regressed)  Right, I'm very tired of the good vs bad simplistic BS writing too.
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Feb 28, 2013 03:01
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Noricae posted:They have regressed - majorly. My expectations are low for the entire industry, so by comparison I'm excited to see people I know did good work before maybe put out something that is well written (no, Bioware isn't well written), maybe? Probably delusional Bioware writing is awful, especially their "good vs bad" mechanics especially when for Bioware (or even Bethesda) where bad is you just being a really big douche, "A. Yes I will help you on your quest! B. gently caress off dipshit!"
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Feb 28, 2013 03:24
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Right, where's my C) Smooth talker, wink wink, sure I'll help you and then steal all your stuff and fifteen other options. But mostly C 
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Feb 28, 2013 06:43
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They've laid out the prospective pledge tiers: https://torment.uservoice.com/forums/196241-pledge-tiers
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Feb 28, 2013 17:17
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Seems a reasonable list of tiers. Pretty similar to what Project Eternity did, as I remember it. If that ends up being what they put up finally and their pitch is good enough, I'd be pretty tempted to jump on at $75. which is more than double I thought I would be in for. So job done on their part, I guess. Weird that they have limited numbers of tiers which don't have any physical rewards though. I guess digital scarcity for marketing purposes is a thing now.
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Feb 28, 2013 18:40
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CottonWolf posted:Weird that they have limited numbers of tiers which don't have any physical rewards though. I guess digital scarcity for marketing purposes is a thing now. It does look weird but it's actually related to the pen and paper Numenera books, which come from another company (Monte's) and which we can't offer in limitless supply. The limits are just so we can plan this with Monte ahead of time, and if they run out we can indeed still follow up with different, similar tiers on Kickstarter.
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Feb 28, 2013 19:02
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