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Ettin
Oct 2, 2010





So, I just picked up this. Quest Squires is a game from Ohio-based gamer Theodore Quigley, hardcore gamer and three-time GenCon attendee who stole Gygax's shoelaces once. It's a labour of love, the result of nineteen years of research and countless games in multiple systems including Dungeons & Dragons, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, Dungeons & Dragons Expert Set, Dungeons & Dragons Companion Set, Dungeons & Dragons Master Rules and Dungeons & Dragons Immortals Rules (the rare 1987 misprint where they accidentally included Mentzer's recipe for making LSD in your basement.)


And it has a ton of innovations! For example...

• "Activity Points", which you can spend to occasionally take an extra turn in combat or do other cool things
• No character class system - players pick from a series of "Improvements" that "unlock" as they "level up"
• Racial level limits
• Complex "improvisation" mechanics
• Verisimilitudinous optional rules for female rogues, based on Theodore's personal experiences with his ex-wife
• 24 types of shield
• Seven different kinds of halfling

Anyone else played this? What about it do you like?

NOTE: The last thread got gassed, but this one is staying for now on the condition that we don't bring up Cordolian Round Tower-Glaive Shields. We don't need a repeat of the 57,000 post argument about Cordolian Round Tower-Glaive Shield errata which almost destroyed rpg.net in 2008. So, no Cordolian Round Tower-Glaive Shield exploit chat. (Shield golems and other related things are fine.)

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Rulebook Heavily
Sep 18, 2010

IT IS SO WRITTEN IN THE EDDAS.


I feel that the shield AC versus Polearms chart is well done but I've always had mixed feelings about the Shield Miscibility Table.

goatface
Dec 5, 2007

I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.


What are the encumbrance rules like?

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


Did you get the reprint then? I have the original rules kicking around somewhere and the errata never fixed spiked half-shields. Did that get addressed or are they still only for Jaegerknight use?

Dareon
Apr 6, 2009


I'm not sure female rogues really needed the ability to "vomit caustic bile all over everything you ever loved", but thanks to the sidebar on page 118, that ability both got us into a lot of trouble with the local government and out of a lot of trouble with the BBEG.

xiw
Sep 25, 2011



This is the game that Eberron later ripped off with the lightning rails, right? I only had a quick skim of it back in the day, our group never quite understood the movement rules for magical underground trains or why they were in there.

Gau
Nov 18, 2003

ASK ME ABOUT THE KEYS TO KICKSTARTER SUCCESS

Hey, are we using the full damage rules? Especially this section:

quote:

(H7.7) INJURY ALLOCATION RESTRICTIONS AND CONDITIONS

Several conditions, restrictions, and special rules are involved in the Injury Allocation Procedure.

(H7.71) BOLD-FACE RESULTS: Note that some of the results on the INJURY ALLOCATION CHART are printed in BOLD type. These results are treated specially. A given BOLD result canonly be scored ONE time in each strike.

For example, if three injury points were scored, and the allocation die roll was a "12" in each case (unlikely, but possible),then these three injury points would be scored against: brain, brain stem, and eyes. If the three allocation die rolls had all been "9," then the damage points would have been scored against left leg, upper chest, and center chest. Note, however, that the prohibition against scoring a BOLD result twice is against the position of the chart, NOT against the given body part. If allocation die rolls of "10" and "4" were obtained, both would be scored against hands. (This example assumes that the person in question has the body parts in question.)

Rulebook Heavily
Sep 18, 2010

IT IS SO WRITTEN IN THE EDDAS.


Oh, that was after they introduced regular, pseudo, demi and quasi-canon from the previous system of high, low, irregular, contradictory and non-canon, wasn't it?

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


goatface posted:

What are the encumbrance rules like?

Quest Squires uses what it calls a reverse encumbrance rating system, "To Heft A Collection Of Goods" or THACOG. Each character derives their THACOG rating by consulting the Encumbrance Rating Derivation chart, basing it off of a formula involving their Strength, Constitution, and Willpower scores, as well as their Lift subscore. It looks something like:

THACOG = (Strength score + Lift subscore)x2 + (Constitution score + 1/2 Willpower score rounded up) + an additional value based on your current experience point total, plus any additional modifiers that may come into play such as with the Strong Back Improvement (which counter-intuitively does not actually modify your Lift subscore, though a lot of people houserule it so it works that way).

Then from there, you take that value and you express it as a negative value. So someone with a THACOG of 72 actually has a THACOG of -72 instead. You apply your THACOG to the total weight in pounds of all the gear you're carrying on your person to determine your Actual Encumbrance Rating. So our adventurer with a THACOG of -72 carrying around 100 pounds of weapons, armor, and beef jerky has an AER of (100 + -72) = 28.

The Quest Master then uses that AER for any Endurance Checks that character has to make. Endurance Checks are a d100 roll, with the QM checking to see if the result comes in underneath the character's AER. If it does then the character begins to gain Physical Fatigue, if the result is equal to or over the character's AER then they suffer no ill effect.

It's pretty simple, really.

Gau
Nov 18, 2003

ASK ME ABOUT THE KEYS TO KICKSTARTER SUCCESS

Kai Tave posted:

THACOG = (Strength score + Lift subscore)x2 + (Constitution score + 1/2 Willpower score rounded up) + an additional value based on your current experience point total, plus any additional modifiers that may come into play such as with the Strong Back Improvement (which counter-intuitively does not actually modify your Lift subscore, though a lot of people houserule it so it works that way).

Is this Table 5.3D? Because I don't have that in my "printing."

Lightning Lord
Feb 21, 2013


Man, that table for generating magic pianos stuck in the middle of the character creation chapter's list of races on page 166 was super flavorful wasn't it? I especially liked that it had like twenty different materials for keys.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Gau posted:

Is this Table 5.3D? Because I don't have that in my "printing."

By the quotes I'm guessing you have one of the hand-bound "second printing" copies that Quigley put out while he was between jobs, right? Yeah, Table 5.3D got left out of those by accident when he lost the sheaf containing it...that's also why your copy is missing three other pages as well. He later made an offer through the official Quest Squires Xanga page to anyone who wanted it whereby you can mail your copy of the book back to him along with a $20 dollar processing fee and he'll hand-write the table on the inside of the back cover before shipping it back to you (requests for Quest Squire errata to be posted via the webpage are, of course, still flatly refused by Quigley who considers doing so an "admission of weakness").

The snag though is that all the hand-written Table 5.3D's Quigley has issued contain several different values from the Table 5.3D that was included in the first printing, and he's yet to officially state which one is the definitive version, so you need to check with your QM to see which table he's using. It's important that you use at least one of the tables, of course, given that all the equipment in Quest Squires goes up in weight the more powerful it is. Without that additional modifier table, characters eventually won't be able to heft the magical equipment they find without collapsing due to Physical Fatigue Overstrain and risking permanent attribute damage.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


Found and scanned my first printing player's map (note the lack of political borders and cities) still looking for the DM's version...

xiw
Sep 25, 2011



Oh man I remember that, our first group all drowned because we decided to start in hex 2206 and our QM decided that was ocean instead of land.

MiltonSlavemasta
Feb 12, 2009

And the cats in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
"When you coming home, dad?"
"I don't know when
We'll get together then son you know we'll have a good time then."


My former friend and I stopped talking years ago over a dispute I'm hoping some of the fans in this thread can resolve. I was under the impression that the K'zathoth-Da'Turag-Tar (Black Orogs) written up in the Dragynrealm Campaign Omnibus were playable as a PC race, but he was under the impression that the fact that 97.2% of them worshiping Sai-tan excluded them from the list of playable races as per the appendix in the Core Book which said only races which had at least 5% of their members with a Faith total of over 13 were acceptable for PC use, and that Sai-tan only accepts adherents with a Faith score of 10 or less, so this would be categorically impossible.

However, I argued that while only adherents with Faith of less than 10 would be granted powers by Sai-tan, worshipers with Faith of 13 or over could still worship him without being smited because, in his writeup in the Devil Document, he doesn't have the remote smiting ability of Yeshua Prime and Bilderberger. When I pointed this out, he threw his Mystery Manifest in my face and walked out. Who's right?

UnCO3
Feb 11, 2010

Ye gods!


You should probably check the Compendium of the Miserable Races (the first reprint is the best by far). It divides the populations of nominally Anarchic Despicable races by a variety of metrics, including religion, and subdivides by attitude (e.g. casual, pressured, non-practicing, ironic, putting on a facade, claiming to be religious to avoid persecution, claiming to be religious to obtain secret society benefits). For example, 34.1% of the K'zathoth-Da'Turag-Tar are only ethnically Sai-tan worshippers (by comparison, so are 14.7% of Yeshua Prime neophytes, but that's a whole different book).

xiw
Sep 25, 2011



Also my QM took the Questmaster Oath stuff pretty seriously, so he never told us how the gently caress you got the Bloodsword out of the iron pincers on level two of the Delve - we cleared out most of the place but never found any of the keys or the other dial. Was it even possible?

Ettin
Oct 2, 2010


Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Did you get the reprint then? I have the original rules kicking around somewhere and the errata never fixed spiked half-shields. Did that get addressed or are they still only for Jaegerknight use?

It's addressed by the third reprint. I have that and... the 2.75 reprint, I think. It's pretty much the third reprint - so the first 20 major errata updates, the LSD recipe gets sneaked back in but renamed Lysergid's Wonderful Elixir and with all the ingredients changed to the Dragynrealm equivalent to get past the FBI, and Theodore added an entire monster chapter based on people who had made fun of him on the internet - but 2.75 was printed off a few weeks earlier and had to be stopped because the material they used for the cover combusts on hot summer days. I mostly keep it around for fun in an insulated box.

Rulebook Heavily
Sep 18, 2010

IT IS SO WRITTEN IN THE EDDAS.


Ooh, that monster chapter also had the updated J'ockk monster rules with the updated name generator based on Quigley's old classmates. Good old J'ockk names like B'rett, C'had, B'rad and J'osh. I wanted to try playing one, but according to the Real Life Aptitude Test my real life IQ just wasn't low enough to qualify and my alignment (intelligent nice guy neutral) was all wrong.

FrozenGoldfishGod
Oct 29, 2009

JUST LOOK AT THIS SHIT POST!


Rulebook Heavily posted:

Ooh, that monster chapter also had the updated J'ockk monster rules with the updated name generator based on Quigley's old classmates. Good old J'ockk names like B'rett, C'had, B'rad and J'osh. I wanted to try playing one, but according to the Real Life Aptitude Test my real life IQ just wasn't low enough to qualify and my alignment (intelligent nice guy neutral) was all wrong.

Since you brought them up, did anyone else have trouble with the J'ockk "Cram into Recepticle" ability being just too powerful? I mean, I tried to telegraph that this was something it could do better, but it was just an unending TPK every time I used a J'ockk, so I wound up just ignoring that it was in there.

UnCO3
Feb 11, 2010

Ye gods!


Rulebook Heavily posted:

Ooh, that monster chapter also had the updated J'ockk monster rules with the updated name generator based on Quigley's old classmates. Good old J'ockk names like B'rett, C'had, B'rad and J'osh. I wanted to try playing one, but according to the Real Life Aptitude Test my real life IQ just wasn't low enough to qualify and my alignment (intelligent nice guy neutral) was all wrong.
Speaking of names, while the Book of Whores and Lying Bitches was really informative the name tables were a complete let-down. It's just not verisimilitudinous for all the strumpets and tarts in my games to have exactly the same name.

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007


The guy who ran this for me used to play with Quigley, and sorry but I can confirm the K'zathoth-Da'Turag-Tar are not intended to be playable. Quigley doesn't consider Compendium of the Miserable Races "core" either, despite later reprinting pages 40-72 in the second player set and explicitly labeling them as part of the core Quest Squires experience.

I have a copy of the "Quest Spires: Underground Adventures: The Lairs of the Dragon Fish" box set somewhere around here, I'm trying to find it. It should have my old campaign notes and character sheets in there too. I did find this in my character sheet folder though! I think this was my character for the "Quest Spires Z5: Tyranny of the Fey King" module. Had to take pictures since my scanner isn't working.







He was a bit too powerful for Z5 since he had 6 improvements already and his armor was really good, but focusing on those things kinda messed with his spell progression and he only had 1st rank spells.

Traveller
Jan 6, 2012


Three words that should strike fear into the hearts of veterans:

Well Dressed Nebbit.

Ettin
Oct 2, 2010



How did you get an armor rating of Yes/Yes/Yes/No/No before Z9?

MiltonSlavemasta
Feb 12, 2009

And the cats in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
"When you coming home, dad?"
"I don't know when
We'll get together then son you know we'll have a good time then."


Mikan posted:

He was a bit too powerful for Z5 since he had 6 improvements already and his armor was really good, but focusing on those things kinda messed with his spell progression and he only had 1st rank spells.

I can't tell if that last page says Makeovers or Male Lovers; Are you using the Advanced Cosmetology Subsystem from the Portfolio of Professions Personal, or did you opt for the Theban Sacred Band Party System out of the Ancient Greece-inspired Zeusrealm supplement?

Comrade Gorbash
Jul 12, 2011

Let's get serious!!


FrozenGoldfishGod posted:

Since you brought them up, did anyone else have trouble with the J'ockk "Cram into Recepticle" ability being just too powerful? I mean, I tried to telegraph that this was something it could do better, but it was just an unending TPK every time I used a J'ockk, so I wound up just ignoring that it was in there.
You must have been using the 1st Edition stats. They accidentally left out that unlike other imprisonment effects, it Restricted rather than Blocked spellcasting. Also there's an easy to miss note on page 163 (Revised printing, should be in the basic Improvements rules section regardless) that any character with at least two Muscle Improvements can roll a double save against Cram. I don't know why it's there instead of in the J'ockk section, but such are the mysteries of Quigley.

MiltonSlavemasta posted:

I can't tell if that last page says Makeovers or Male Lovers; Are you using the Advanced Cosmetology Subsystem from the Portfolio of Professions Personal, or did you opt for the Theban Sacred Band Party System out of the Ancient Greece-inspired Zeusrealm supplement?
I'm pretty sure it's Maneuvers, which means he's somehow managed to shove at least two Tactician improvements in there too. Are you sure that's only a Z5 character?

Either way, the Theban Sacred Band Party System gets completely out of hand once everyone gets to Z7 and takes the Noble Doom improvement. Sure it means everyone's going to get killed by Z11, but frankly the game goes completely off the rails after that point anyways, and you kick every shade of rear end until then.

TheLovablePlutonis
Mar 25, 2011



To be honest my favorite Splatbook was the now-forgotten "Escape from Väundermäus' Plane-Blimp", written by Quigley himself, which was probably the first Electropunk tabletop in existence. The emotion-based system and moodskills made combat quite frenetic, and the card-throwing class "Gambler" was a favorite of mine, even made a character with it. Too bad the game stopped as we were leaving the City 5 Conflagration, the GM lost interest as we were fighting disguised Steam Hologram assassins.

GorfZaplen
Jan 20, 2012

It's a
~LOVE~
~LETER~



As I brought up in the last thread, several creatures, especially in the award-nominated Terror Tome IX (I erroneously thought it was Terror Tome VIII) were part of the "Pepretual Motion Suite", as the original hand written copy put it. It contained the infamous Shieldsmithy, a creature that revolved around the fact that death isn't possible as long as you're in motion. At some point, the Master of System Mastery (as he was known on alt.games.frp.qs) Quigley pursued this line of thought and made a good four or five creatures out of it. He even drew some of them! Unfortunately, due to an error where the print shop probably deliberately made black and white copies instead of color, his original vibrant crayon color work is lost.


This is the "Superball", which I suspect is either the thing above the leggy beast here, or the leggy beast itself. I'm not sure which, because at times the description mentions "feet" but other times it mentions "bounce". A friend of mind suggested that they are two different forms of the same creature, but that is silly because Quigley's creatures were only ever used for a single niche purpose, as is the true playstyle of Quest Squires.




This is the "Kross Country", a creature which could run for a long long time and never get tired. It was particularly dangerous to intelligent characters, and would always target them first.

The art in the Terror Tome books is rare, but always a treat. It's great to have visual evidence of what the creators true terror intentions were.

Dareon
Apr 6, 2009


FrozenGoldfishGod posted:

Since you brought them up, did anyone else have trouble with the J'ockk "Cram into Recepticle" ability being just too powerful? I mean, I tried to telegraph that this was something it could do better, but it was just an unending TPK every time I used a J'ockk, so I wound up just ignoring that it was in there.

For my group, the problem was the "Destroy Books" ability. The guys playing wizards could never figure out the improvisation rules for casting without your spellbook in hand, which to this day we're sure was intentional. Seriously, I brought this thread up and they were like, "God, gently caress that game. Remember when we went into the Sweat-Caves of Pump'ahn-i-rone? I could cast maybe one spell before we had to go back to town and get new spellbooks."

Squizzle
Apr 24, 2008


Kai Tave posted:

THACOG = (Strength score + Lift subscore)x2 + (Constitution score + 1/2 Willpower score rounded up) + an additional value based on your current experience point total, plus any additional modifiers that may come into play such as with the Strong Back Improvement (which counter-intuitively does not actually modify your Lift subscore, though a lot of people houserule it so it works that way).

The part that I've bolded there? It caused so many arguments at my table. This is the only spot in the core rules--so notwithstanding the Digesting Duck in Terror Tome V--that says to round a number without specifying what you're rounding to. My group was split among treating it like most instances of rounding-up in Quest Squires (round to the next 1/3); rounding to the next whole number; and, since no method was specified, rounding up to any number the player wanted. We never could come to an agreement, and ultimately settled on each player doing whichever they were most comfortable with. It turned out for the best, because the party never would have been able to survive the QM's brief obsession with "rivers of molten acid" if Scott's grease-halfling didn't have a good enough THACOG to carry the rest of the party while he was in flight. (He had been bitten by a werepterodactyl early in the campaign.)

Comrade Gorbash posted:

Sure it means everyone's going to get killed by Z11, but frankly the game goes completely off the rails after that point anyways, and you kick every shade of rear end until then.

Did you enough encounters with shades of rear end for that to really matter? My QM had a religious objection to every Unliving [Spectral/Embodying] monster in the Ætherical Codex, so we never faced them.

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007


Comrade Gorbash posted:

I'm pretty sure it's Maneuvers, which means he's somehow managed to shove at least two Tactician improvements in there too. Are you sure that's only a Z5 character?

Grey Elves get a free Tactician improvement at character creation, and if you finish Z4: The Trials of the Summer Court you can petition the queen for another improvement that doesn't change your experience rate. Of course, being a Grey Elf means you are forbidden from taking a small category of improvements but it's not a big deal.

Ettin posted:

How did you get an armor rating of Yes/Yes/Yes/No/No before Z9?

There's a trick where you take a Tactician improvement to trade away spell ranks for increased armor, then Berserker Rage that lets you trade armor for weapon damage, then the one (Arcane Enervation?) that trades weapon damage for spell ranks. You trade a rank of spells (rank 3, in my case) for 2 steps of armor, then trade 2 steps of armor for 4d8-1d4 damage with your weapon, then trade the 4d8-1d4 for rank 4 spells. You keep repeating the process until you get to Armor: Yes/Yes/Yes/No/No, at which point you can't trade any more because it's impossible to gain spell ranks beyond Rank 15 unless you're a Mystic Elf.
Mystic Elves can't take Tactician improvements, otherwise they would be completely overpowered.

Randalor
Sep 4, 2011


Mikan posted:

Grey Elves get a free Tactician improvement at character creation, and if you finish Z4: The Trials of the Summer Court you can petition the queen for another improvement that doesn't change your experience rate. Of course, being a Grey Elf means you are forbidden from taking a small category of improvements but it's not a big deal.

Wasn't Grey Elves the ones barred from taking the Elven K'hibleer improvements? I could never give up on taking the best non-combat improvements, even if they required access to a bakery to make full use of.

Ettin
Oct 2, 2010


Mikan posted:

There's a trick where you take a Tactician improvement to trade away spell ranks for increased armor, then Berserker Rage that lets you trade armor for weapon damage, then the one (Arcane Enervation?) that trades weapon damage for spell ranks.

I think it's Arcane Enervation, yeah. Arcane Innovation is the one that trades THACOG for spell ranks, Arcane Incubation is the one that lets sorceresses get pregnant and still look "sensual" and Arcane Innervation lets you trade spell ranks for allocation die. (That one is great if the QM will let you take it, it doesn't do much at higher levels but with the way it interacts with TACWAK0 basically just derails every adventure from Z-2 to Z3 into the entire party beating dark goblins like it's their job.


Does your friend who played with Quigley still know him? He is super hard to talk to these days. Apparently he only posts in a secret G+ community and to get an invite you need to submit a resume and have a friend of his check to make sure you're a guy who's playing the right games, posting on the right forums etc. You have to sign an NDA and agree not to talk about Quigley or challenge his opinions so I don't know the details, but I heard a former friend of his spilled them somewhere?

Dareon
Apr 6, 2009


Ettin posted:

...Arcane Incubation is the one that lets sorceresses get pregnant and still look "sensual"...

Discussing this was the worst time to learn one of my group had a pregnancy fetish...

Winson_Paine
Oct 27, 2000

Wait, something is wrong.


So I take it the consensus is that once it got sold to Rathskeller Publishing and they did that terrible loving second edition which was basically a Paladium clone and stripped all the charm out of the rules that we aren't talking about that any more? I wish someone would pick the IP up and run with it, I would kill for a Squires World nowadays.

Comrade Gorbash
Jul 12, 2011

Let's get serious!!


Dareon posted:

Discussing this was the worst time to learn one of my group had a pregnancy fetish...
There's a good time to learn one of your group has a pregnancy fetish?

Since we brought up allocation dice, maybe someone can answer something for me. How many allocation dice can you apply to a Defend Other roll? Normally in combat you can't apply more allocation dice to an action than your base TAK, plus any Mastery Improvements for the given skill or weapon, UNLESS it's a Complete Defense roll, in which case you can also add your Shield rating. Defend Other says at the end of its section that it "works in all other ways as Complete Defense." I've always assumed this means you can add those extra allocation dice, but it's not really clear.

Winson_Paine posted:

So I take it the consensus is that once it got sold to Rathskeller Publishing and they did that terrible loving second edition which was basically a Paladium clone and stripped all the charm out of the rules that we aren't talking about that any more?
There is no second edition.

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007


Ettin posted:

Does your friend who played with Quigley still know him? He is super hard to talk to these days. Apparently he only posts in a secret G+ community and to get an invite you need to submit a resume and have a friend of his check to make sure you're a guy who's playing the right games, posting on the right forums etc. You have to sign an NDA and agree not to talk about Quigley or challenge his opinions so I don't know the details, but I heard a former friend of his spilled them somewhere?

Quigley has about eight different G+ circles. I can see two of them, I think, and even my old GM only sees three or four. He's not that bad a guy, he's just had a rough life and he doesn't do well at arguing on the internet
There is some stuff if you look around the internet but I'm not going to post any of it, sorry.


Dareon posted:

The guys playing wizards could never figure out the improvisation rules for casting without your spellbook in hand, which to this day we're sure was intentional.

I can confirm this one; the rules for casting without a spellbook don't work, and if you look at the first letter of each sentence there is a fairly insulting message about keeping your spellbook safe.

Kellsterik
Mar 30, 2012


Squires. Questing.

whydirt
Apr 18, 2001


Gaz Posting Brigade

Has anyone tried using QS:AID rules to run an Ape Fight game?

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HitTheTargets
Mar 3, 2006

I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those bat-men.

GorfZaplen posted:

(I erroneously thought it was Terror Tome VIII)

Ooh, that's a good one though. I always liked how it had an entry for itself as a monster with the powers of all the monsters contained in its pages... Including ITSELF!!

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