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ClemenSalad posted:The 4th amendment doesn't apply here at all and I honestly don't understand how he could think it does, which is why I'm a bit confused. 250 years of case law its pretty clear that you can decide who rides on your airplane, who enters your home, who enters your place of business and under what conditions. Yes because precedent is always what's best for everyone and the way we designed things 250 years ago is sure to stand up to scrutiny in this day and age. And actually there are many laws deciding that people can't always decide who gets to use their service and there are limits to the conditions, you know, all the things that have been put in place to protect people from unnecessary bullshit and discrimination. Harry Joe fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2013 around 21:41 |
| # ? Feb 25, 2013 21:38 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 21:54 |
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Guess what? When you own your own airplane + airport you'll have THE FREEDOM MY RIGHTS to get on it without masturbating first! (since that is what they put you through, literal fellatio)! Of course you're still privy to the whims of that drat FREEDOM HATING FCC/FAA because you know, airplanes do this adorable exploding thing when they bump butts. But hey at least you have THE RIGHT to be UNLIMITED and upload EVERYTHING on your IPHONE! I really, really dislike this mentality. What's a privilege? Some of these airplanes seat almost a thousand people now. There are probability problems with not at least attempting some form of security. Just because some of the security people gently caress up sometimes doesn't invalidate the job in any way. How many people bitch about concerts and entertainment venues that make you open your purse and pat you down/wave metal detector wands at you to get through the door? There is considerable risk in flying through the air in a contraption. When I learned what they were doing in ~2002 because people started bitching I was stupefied at how they weren't already doing it in the 90's. Divine Disclaimer fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2013 around 22:28 |
| # ? Feb 25, 2013 22:19 |
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Morally Inept posted:But did you see the video? They wouldn't even let the mom give the kid her doll after she was screaming for it. Not to mention that the mom asking if she could pick up her scared, screaming child wasn't even allowed for some unknown reason at the beginning. The kid should have been allowed to walk through the metal detector with the mom holding her and the wheelchair checked separately. I don't think there's too many hiding spots for contraband on a childs wheelchair. (Oh, and did you see them tell the mom she can't video tape them searching her daughter?) Yeah the video tape thing is stupid, they're just parroting the rights actual police officers have in some states because every rent a cop thinks they're a real one. I think everyone should be allowed to videotape everything because it's really the only tool citizens have to keep public servants honest. And in this case I think it should've been pretty obvious that the kid didn't constitute any harm, but it sounds like they detained the family for 30 minutes anyway since they had no idea as to the proper way to handle the whole metal detector situation. Really poor training all around.
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| # ? Feb 25, 2013 22:23 |
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Lots of normal people see terrible police abuse and then write it off as a fringe case, an exception to the norm. Except police abuse of power is probably grossly more common, but it would gently caress with their worldview to face that. The TSA doesn't have that liberty because they don't have anything to glorify them; you only report the negative gently caress-ups. So you end up with this perspective in public opinion of "gently caress the TSA THEY MADE ME TAKE MY shoes OFF they must all be incompetent molesters end the oppression!". They should probably do a better job of firing their gently caress-ups and hiring people who are less gently caress-y.
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| # ? Feb 25, 2013 22:31 |
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Divine Disclaimer posted:Lots of normal people see terrible police abuse and then write it off as a fringe case, an exception to the norm. Except police abuse of power is probably grossly more common, but it would gently caress with their worldview to face that. The TSA doesn't have that liberty because they don't have anything to glorify them; you only report the negative gently caress-ups. So you end up with this perspective in public opinion of "gently caress the TSA THEY MADE ME TAKE MY shoes OFF they must all be incompetent molesters end the oppression!". If you've never worked in government, especially federal, you have no idea how motherfucking long it takes to fire someone. Just recently a guy at my airport finally got fired for ten, TEN, years of misconduct and incompetence. He'd screw up one week, get retrained and then screw up something else the next week, get into a huge argument with a manager and then continue the cycle over and over again. Finally our director just went "gently caress it. Toss his rear end in the street and if he comes back hollering about unjust termination we'll just throw his enormous file at his face." It is staggering how much it takes to be fired as a federal employee. When I was in the private sector a co-worker was fired for being 15 minutes late and had even called ahead to let us know he was stuck in traffic. Oregon is an at-will state so he didn't even bother trying to fight it. Now I see people just not doing their job when national security is supposedly on the line and the senior management's hands are tied as to what they can do about it. The union that was just put in is only serving to choke the system with paperwork and is making the whole agency worse for it. They are not advocating our rights or benefits.
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| # ? Feb 25, 2013 22:49 |
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That TSA Blog is loving gold, tons of people telling the TSA "I totally could bring a bomb in here" and bringing old AT4s and poo poo.
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| # ? Feb 25, 2013 22:53 |
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Oppenheimer posted:That TSA Blog is loving gold, tons of people telling the TSA "I totally could bring a bomb in here" and bringing old AT4s and poo poo. The trick is to wait until your luggage gets through the scanners, and they've felt you up/scanned you, and then you tell them you've got a bomb. Bonus points for every 5 meters that you manage to run away from the TSA, while carrying your bag. It would be hilarious to run through the airport screaming "I HAVE A BOMB! YOU WILL NEVER CATCH ME! I'M GOING TO KILL EVERYBODY! ALLAHU ACKBAR!"
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| # ? Feb 25, 2013 23:15 |
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Oppenheimer posted:That TSA Blog is loving gold, tons of people telling the TSA "I totally could bring a bomb in here" and bringing old AT4s and poo poo. This reminds me of being a kid and huddling around a campfire while my dad held a flashlight up to his face and told scary stories, "In the future, government agencies will take naked pictures of everyone and only talk to people through TWEETS AND BLOGS!" I had no idea what a blog was, but still it filled my heart with terror. Anyway, all those TSA replies are probably just people who had mean dads.
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| # ? Feb 25, 2013 23:15 |
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Noni posted:Anyway, all those TSA replies are probably just people who had mean dads. They are pretty amusing, though. quote:Anonymous said... quote:ClliffOnTheRoad said... I also like how people argue about how the TSA (post 9/11) doesn't prevent terrorist attacks, but they almost never list any examples. I mean, if it didn't work, there would have been a bunch of terrorist attacks, right? Alcholism Rocks fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2013 around 23:23 |
| # ? Feb 25, 2013 23:20 |
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Alcholism Rocks posted:I also like how people argue about how the TSA (post 9/11) doesn't prevent terrorist attacks, but they almost never list any examples. I mean, if it didn't work, there would have been a bunch of terrorist attacks, right? Well can you prove it wasn't my antiterrorism rock that I keep on my coffee table? Because, there are plenty of breach surveys where the TSA has failed badly so we know they are bad at their job, so your demanding of an affirmation that something prevented terror attacks that didn't happen means that I provide my antiterror rock as the reason we are so safe. For the record, there are entire lines of philosophy dedicated to how stupid the question you just posed was. You have actually asked someone to prove that there is a correlation to something that didn't happen. By your logic, there would have been over a billion 9/11 type attacks before the TSA, since the TSA would be the only thing preventing them after its inception. It is.. dumb, so very dumb. Unless Im misreading your phrasing and you're attributing that to dumb comments, in which case they assume the stupid. Spaceman Future! fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2013 around 23:37 |
| # ? Feb 25, 2013 23:35 |
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Alcholism Rocks posted:The trick is to wait until your luggage gets through the scanners, and they've felt you up/scanned you, and then you tell them you've got a bomb. Bonus points for every 5 meters that you manage to run away from the TSA, while carrying your bag. And you'd get killed like this guy did. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/07/n...plane.html?_r=0 quote:While the plane was still at the gate, "at some point, he uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb," James T. Bauer, the Federal Air Marshal Service's agent in charge in Miami.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 00:18 |
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ClemenSalad posted:The 4th amendment doesn't apply here at all and I honestly don't understand how he could think it does, which is why I'm a bit confused. 250 years of case law its pretty clear that you can decide who rides on your airplane, who enters your home, who enters your place of business and under what conditions. Uh yeah the 4th amendment absolutely applies here, thing is the courts ruled in 1973 that airport searches were legal under the 4th amendment anyway in US v. Davis and have continued to do so over time. The rule is that "An airport screening search is reasonable if: (1) it is no more extensive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives; (2) it is confined in good faith to that purpose; and (3) passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly."
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 02:17 |
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This is bullshit. I go through the trouble of getting my dick rock hard before every security check and they never give me a pat down. Not even eye contact.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 02:56 |
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ClemenSalad posted:In what way is it violating your rights? You accidentally typed a bunch of stuff that didn't pertain to what I said, so I went ahead and deleted it for you. It violates my fourth amendment rights because it is an unreasonable search; I have never presented any reasonable suspicion that I am a threat to public safety any time I have entered an airport. ClemenSalad posted:The 4th amendment doesn't apply here at all and I honestly don't understand how he could think it does, which is why I'm a bit confused. 250 years of case law its pretty clear that you can decide who rides on your airplane, who enters your home, who enters your place of business and under what conditions. Oh, so here is the root of your confusion. Let me clear this up. TSA agents are not airline employees. Airlines are not government institutions. There you go. ElwoodCuse posted:Uh yeah the 4th amendment absolutely applies here, thing is the courts ruled in 1973 that airport searches were legal under the 4th amendment anyway in US v. Davis and have continued to do so over time. The rule is that "An airport screening search is reasonable if: (1) it is no more extensive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives; (2) it is confined in good faith to that purpose; and (3) passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly." And the TSA violates the first part by, at the very least, (ostensibly) searching people at random, anyone and everyone, which is more extensive than necessary, and more intensively than necessary since they subject people to dangerous body scans or invasive body searches without any reasonable belief that it is necessary. thehumandignity fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2013 around 03:12 |
| # ? Feb 26, 2013 03:05 |
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3rd part too. There was a big thing a while ago where a someone got halfway through the screening, decided he didn't like what they were doing and tried to leave. He was arrested and everyone said if you could just keep trying to fly until you made it through there'd be no point in doing the screening. I'm always annoyed when people compare flying to going to a club or something. Flying really is something that 95% of people only do if it's completely necessary. You fly for business, family emergencies, or when it's basically impossible to get to your destination through another method. That doesn't make flying a right, but it's not something most people can just opt out of either.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 03:17 |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visibl...d_Response_team Just a little bit more security and you'll be safe, promise!
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 03:24 |
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Divine Disclaimer posted:They should probably do a better job of firing their gently caress-ups and hiring people who are less gently caress-y. Obviously you haven't been following the loving thread then. It's already been established the low pay and low education bar for TSA employment is a major reason for all the "gently caress-y" people. If they fired all the gently caress ups they would probably be coming up short. Not going to find a gold mind of potential employees either as anyone with law enforcement education isn't going to want the low pay TSA offers. ...and before you say this, no there isn't a chance in loving hell they would ever pay them more or require more education to try and get more professional people. Not a chance. Morally Inept posted:I guess my issue is that we can make all manners of bullshit "what ifs." Exactly. You can justify all kinds of paranoid bullshit with endless 24-ish what ifs.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 03:41 |
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ApexAftermath posted:Obviously you haven't been following the loving thread then. It's already been established the low pay and low education bar for TSA employment is a major reason for all the "gently caress-y" people. If they fired all the gently caress ups they would probably be coming up short. They are already coming up short. Apparently, the TSA was denied congressional funding for hiring new inspectors a couple of years ago. The reasoning? They hadn't filled the positions allocated by their last request for additional funding for hiring new inspectors. ApexAftermath posted:Exactly. You can justify all kinds of paranoid bullshit with endless 24-ish what ifs. What if, instead of crashing a plane into a government building, I just park a truck in my garage, build a big-rear end bomb in there, and then use it to blow up a government building? Oh, wait.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 03:56 |
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I traveled to Madison Wisconsin for a party in 2001. I was really hung over while getting my suitcase together for the trip back. I totally forget some of the party favors I thought would be a good idea to take home. Explaining the deflated sheep sex toy used as a pool toy was ... difficult. The pig skull from the bbq? "I plan on turning it into a bong". Yup. I got searched one level below full cavity for that answer.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 03:58 |
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The only conversation I want to have is the one that ends with figuring out how to fix that little girl's spina bifida.  Dammit, I cried a little seeing her cry.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 04:04 |
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thehumandignity posted:What if, instead of crashing a plane into a government building, I just park a truck in my garage, build a big-rear end bomb in there, and then use it to blow up a government building? Oh, wait. Woah, that shocking factoid really snuck in there. Some profound thinking my dude.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 04:15 |
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LingcodKilla posted:I traveled to Madison Wisconsin for a party in 2001. I was really hung over while getting my suitcase together for the trip back. I totally forget some of the party favors I thought would be a good idea to take home. Explaining the deflated sheep sex toy used as a pool toy was ... difficult. The pig skull from the bbq? "I plan on turning it into a bong". Yup. I got searched one level below full cavity for that answer. It sounds like your fourth, eighth, and ninth amendment rights were violated. Have you considered filing an official complaint? I was also shocked by how they treated that poor girl. Regardless of whether or not she could have been a drug/bomb mule, they had no right to treat her that way. Her tears fill my soul with sadness, and make me hate the tyrannical government that rules us. What cruel monsters could do such a thing to such a sweet, innocent girl? Maybe we should form up Occupy TSA protests, where we all camp out in airports, and then during their busiest hours, we go to the front of the checkpoints, and block the way for everyone else. We will show them that we will not tolerate their behavior, and we will prevent our American comrades from being assaulted.  Power to the people!
Alcholism Rocks fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2013 around 04:31 |
| # ? Feb 26, 2013 04:15 |
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Once I was going through a security checkpoint when they asked to open up my laptop. When they did they saw my DBZ wallpaper and laughed at me. But it's okay I laughed at them because they were fat and probably undereducated but then they touched my butt and well... no one was laughing after that happened!
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 13:49 |
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Alcholism Rocks posted:The trick is to wait until your luggage gets through the scanners, and they've felt you up/scanned you, and then you tell them you've got a bomb. Bonus points for every 5 meters that you manage to run away from the TSA, while carrying your bag. Try that in Israel airport and you'll probably get shot before you finish the second sentence.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 15:00 |
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Morally Inept posted:I guess my issue is that we can make all manners of bullshit "what ifs." Like, what if, me and 5 guys each carry a piece of that "ceramic" gun separately? Would it be found and if so what makes anyone think it is just a meaningless piece of ceramic. Or incorporate it into the frame of a laptop or cell phone and get it through that way. I mean, we are so paranoid and your post shows it. What if someone just unloaded on crowds in the airport lobbies before even getting on the plane? What if you get mugged outside the airport? As the late Carlin said it is really all for the illusion of security. We need metal detectors and other obvious stuff but people will never be satisfied with security levels, because there's no such thing as 100% security. Are all those fancy metal detectors and anal gloves going to stop me from rolling a slowly reconstructed russian Tank into the airport and blowing people to smithereens? If they have AA-cannons waiting outside what will they do if I read a spellbook and learn how to conjure meteors?
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 23:30 |
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Bobnumerotres posted:What if someone just unloaded on crowds in the airport lobbies before even getting on the plane? This is the number one thing that makes me hate the way checkpoints are set up. Tons of crowded people in a hot, noisy environment that would have nowhere to run if someone just unloaded on them. In Isreal, some airports are setup the way that actually works: large open areas for people to move about and a small number of highly trained officers/agents equipped with the right tools and weapons to ensure that if anyone even thinks about killing innocents, they will eat a hail of bullets. Right now the TSA just throws thousands of moronic bodies at the crowds and hopes that most of them won't poo poo their pants or drool very much.
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 00:43 |
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Inzombiac posted:This is the number one thing that makes me hate the way checkpoints are set up. Tons of crowded people in a hot, noisy environment that would have nowhere to run if someone just unloaded on them. In Isreal, some airports are setup the way that actually works: large open areas for people to move about and a small number of highly trained officers/agents equipped with the right tools and weapons to ensure that if anyone even thinks about killing innocents, they will eat a hail of bullets. I've seen similar things in some european airports. Sure, they have the checkpoint scanners, but some of them will have cops wandering around outside or inside with submachine guns. I wasn't even doing anything wrong, and it made me feel like I needed to keep doing what I was supposed to be doing. Maybe more airports in the USA should have cops doing that. And instead of SMGs, they should carry M240Ls. VVVV - Think about it this way: It helped build character. (Now shut up and color, High Speed.) 
Alcholism Rocks fucked around with this message at Feb 27, 2013 around 04:31 |
| # ? Feb 27, 2013 03:47 |
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Alcholism Rocks posted:I've seen similar things in some european airports. Sure, they have the checkpoint scanners, but some of them will have cops wandering around outside or inside with submachine guns. I wasn't even doing anything wrong, and it made me feel like I needed to keep doing what I was supposed to be doing. I had to look up 240L because I've never heard of anything other than the 240B or 240C. Now I'm just pissed about having to lug that heavy-rear end thing because the US government is cheap.
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 03:58 |
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I wouldn't mind security theater so much if the villains weren't so one-dimensional.
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 05:51 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 21:54 |
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Time_pants posted:I wouldn't mind security theater so much if the villains weren't so one-dimensional. I love you for this and I'm keeping it for the duration of my employment.
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 06:58 |
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