|
Eddain posted:Only if they travel domestically. Children flying internationally get no special treatment. I work the domestic terminal so I very rarely bump into kids that are travelling internationally but I concede your point.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 09:37 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2013 02:07 |
|
|
What's going to happen when someone with a sounding fetish decides to sneak a weapon up their willy-hole? Things will get really, really super awkward from then on...
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 09:39 |
|
|
It's not beyond reasonable thought that unscrupulous parents would use the disability and youth of their child to hide something, is it?
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 09:42 |
|
|
I used to fly often, a couple times a month at least, back when I was in college and my mother worked for an airline so I could fly free. Every time I flew, I was flagged for special screening. And I don't see the big deal. So what if some guy went through my purse and valiantly avoided making fun of my Wonder Woman action figure and I got a quick pat-down? I tend to be really uncomfortable in close proximity with people and I didn't mind it. There is a strong degree of professionalism, in my experience. But I will say that much more recently I was flying internationally and I felt no less safe flying either domestically or internationally out of Sweden, where the screening process did not even involve removing shoes. But not everywhere is the same, so it makes sense for screening to vary to some degree based on location.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 10:04 |
|
|
Can't we all just fly naked and UPS our luggage?
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 10:22 |
|
|
KillTylerDurden posted:Can't we all just fly naked and UPS our luggage? This would solve all the problems except we'd have to UPS our children, or else things would get real creepy.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 10:34 |
|
|
Inzombiac posted:As a dude with about seven years under my belt with the agency, allow me to offer a slice of advice: So it's just like my current job, but with better hours, benefits, and twice the pay. poo poo, sign me up. I've frisked enough people at rock concerts for my old job I know how to do it without being weird about it.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 10:35 |
|
|
TSA "agents" or "officers" are not law enforcement officers and should stop pretending that they receive the same training. They can start by ditching the badges on their carbon copies of police uniforms. I do rope access and climbing for my work, which involves flying several times per year. I had a carabiner clipped to my backpack and a TSA officer told me all about how it was considered a weapon (brass knuckles, complete with demonstration) and I could get it confiscated. But they let me have it anyway for some reason... I think that is the definition of a lecture/power trip.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 10:36 |
|
|
A sexy submarine posted:Metal detectors and scanners, like the rest of the world uses. I didn't see anything on that blog that wouldn't be screened out by more basic security technology. Metal detectors, as previously mentioned, don't pick up non-metallic items such as explosives.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 11:00 |
|
|
gently caress those TSA agents. How is it possible to have not the tiniest bit of empathy? loving sadistic psychopaths.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 11:00 |
|
|
Node posted:The insanity of the last decade+ was caused by a few guys with box cutters. I say we tranquilize every person and do a full body cavity search for anybody wanting to go on a plane. We need to be safe. Think of the children. Securing the cockpit was probably the biggest security improvement. The next step would be a system to safely automatically land the plane (via GPS/ILS) or even remote control it in a hostage situation. serakyu posted:Metal detectors, as previously mentioned, don't pick up non-metallic items such as explosives. Or a ceramic knife.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 11:04 |
|
, but it reflects poorly on the forums. 
|
That TSA blog is really interesting. The poo poo that people carry with them on planes is crazy. The impression I get is that this is all carry-on luggage as well, things they can't be separated from for the duration of the flight.   I know I don't leave home without my bear mace. What if it turns out the pilot is a grizzly? WHO WILL STOP HIM? Also this was quite cool: quote:Two BDOs at Miami (MIA) alerted on a woman with several other passengers whose behavior seemed out of the ordinary. When the BDOs approached her and asked if she needed help, she rejected their offer. During the conversation, they noticed that she was attempting to disguise that she was badly bruised. The BDOs approached her again to ask if she was harmed by the people she was traveling with, and when she said yes, the BDOs immediately escorted her out of the checkpoint and contacted the police. After an investigation, it was learned that the woman had been badly beaten and was being kidnapped.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 11:10 |
|
|
Of course they'd want to search that child. Did you see that look in her eyes? She wouldn't be crying like that If she didn't have something to hide.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 11:21 |
|
|
Tiara posted:I like how people are using words like 'grope' and 'touch' to describe a person lightly patting them down while they're fully clothed. Haha are you loving kidding me? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I had a "pat down" in Sea-Tac a year ago. They're not kidding around. It's not like what you see in movies where people pat you down on your pants to check for guns. The dude stuck his hands down my pants, all around the waistband. He most definitely made hand contact with my junk, with only a thin cotton layer of boxer short and latex glove separating us. It was thorough and intimate. No, he didn't grope me as in squeeze my junk, but man, when you get searched and touched like that, in public, under suspicion, it's easy to get hyperbolic.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 11:33 |
|
|
Acute Angina posted:Haha are you loving kidding me? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. This one time, I had this anecdote. It was like, the standard for all TSA screening. e- Stop being a bitch citizen, it's for your own good. In the name of security.  Shade2142 fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2013 around 12:21 |
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 12:17 |
|
|
Since my boyfriend is disabled and uses a wheelchair and a few people have questioned why it's upsetting that TSA agents pat down wheelchair users, I thought I'd address that. Some people use wheelchairs because of minor problems and their bodies can move around (or be moved around by others' hands) with no problem. Other people have very serious, very specific conditions that mean being jostled around, squeezed, or pulled by someone who doesn't know how to properly move a body with specific needs can be physically traumatizing. For example, my boyfriend is a T4 paraplegic, meaning he absolutely cannot get out of his chair. Since he's T4, he has no way to control the muscles lower than his chest. Now, muscle responses in paraplegics differ from person to person. In my boyfriend's case, even the lightest touch to his legs can trigger a full body spasm that results in his back arching uncomfortably and his legs kicking outward pretty hard. Even without the fact that a TSA agent who doesn't know about these reactions (which most people don't know about)might interpret the kicking as an attempted assault, those spasms can range from just causing him discomfort to, especially if someone else is attempting to move or touch his body, unseating him. He's a stocky guy, so if he falls out of that chair, I can't pick him up, and I highly doubt TSA agents who aren't trained in handling people with disabilities would be able to without hurting him. Clothes placement is very important for some disabilities.In my boyfriend's case, he has to adjust his clothes just so, as a wrinkle in the wrong place can cause an accumulated discomfort that, within hours, might bring on a pressure sore. If such a sore is on his rear end or legs, he's likely to need hospitalization. The pat downs that are performed on people in wheelchairs (which he has undergone and which I have witnessed) often move the wearer's clothes. In addition, some disabled people have to use external components for basic functions. I'm sure a lot of people here remember the case a few years ago when an agent didn't understand what a disabled man's catheter and urine bag were, tugged at it, and broke the line, covering the man in his own piss and publicly humiliating him (to the point of tears, IIRC). This is a very real concern for a lot of disabled people, my boyfriend included. He's even had TSA agents ask him to remove his catheter. In addition to the private discomfort of having to explain these things to the agent, there's the public discomfort of knowing that everyone around you can hear (and see) this person messing with very private, very personal things like that. As for touching children, I believe there's an article somewhere that talks about how the reason that it's so traumatizing is that we teach our children from a very young age not to let strangers touch them intimately, so naturally the agents trying to do that (all the while telling the parents that it has to be done) scares the gently caress out of kids. Hell, even for a lot of adults, it's uncomfortable and even frightening to have someone you don't know, who's addressing you in a tone that implies you've already done something wrong, feeling your body. As a large-breasted woman who flies fairly regularly, I always have my breasts patted down, and it's humiliating, and in my  case, sometimes brings to mind a traumatic event that involved some very similar elements. For any guys who don't know, the breast patdown includes light squeezing. I even got patted down after going through the body scanner once, because the scanner showed nondescript heat at my breasts -- well no poo poo, it did. I'd been in a crowded airport running around for almost an hour, and big boobs get hot. The first time I got a patdown, I particularly enjoyed finding out that when they say they're going to feel around your waistband, they mean they're actually going to stick most -- if not the entirety -- of their hand down your skirt or pants. I fail to see how people think that no one has any right to be concerned over the invasiveness of the patdowns or their potential danger for disabled passengers. On a lighter note, a male TSA agent took issue with my carryon bag once because he saw a "weird shaped object" in it. He looked suitably embarrassed when he located the object and pulled it out right in front of everyone in the line, because it was a tampon. Taliaquin fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2013 around 12:30 |
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 12:28 |
|
|
Wow, I had absolutely no idea about the involuntary reactions, muscle response, clothing and a lot of what you posted about your boyfriend's experiences. Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out. It's good to know more about just how wheelchair users are affected by the patdowns and what can happen.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 12:38 |
|
|
I love the mental gymnastics the TSA policy-makers do to try to make sense out of their blatantly useless, illegal government muscle-flexing. For example... You can't bring that liquid container on the plane because it might be liquid explosive, but if you drink it right now, then that makes it safe and you're free to board.  Or, in this case... We're committed to your safety and that means randomly harassing innocent travelers in a search for boogeyman terrorists, but since searching a three-year-old girl makes us look like thoughtless brownshirts, we're just going to pretend that it is in no way possible for a hypothetical terrorist to smuggle a bomb in a diaper. Either every person flying represents a legitimate threat to national security and needs to be searched, or you can stop pissing on my fourth amendment rights every time I get on a plane. Because there's certainly no way you could just have actual law enforcement protect public safety by searching people whom they have probable cause to, the same way they do on, say, trains and crowded city streets where any terrorist could just as easily kill hundreds of people with an explosive, that would just be too hard.  When you make arbitrary exceptions like this based on nothing except for the fact that not doing so makes you look bad, you're lifting the curtain and accidentally admitting you aren't actually doing anything useful. loving TSA.
thehumandignity fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2013 around 12:47 |
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 12:45 |
|
|
Catman Begins posted:That TSA blog is really interesting. The poo poo that people carry with them on planes is crazy. The impression I get is that this is all carry-on luggage as well, things they can't be separated from for the duration of the flight. Yeah the Comb Dagger caught my eye:  "Oh hey air hostess, sorry just gimme a sec gonna get my comb out, get some sweet styling going on over h...EVERYBODY THIS IS A HIJACKING, SHUT THE gently caress OR I'LL THE COMB THE CRAP OUT OF YOU"
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 12:50 |
|
|
wutheringbites posted:Wow, I had absolutely no idea about the involuntary reactions, muscle response, clothing and a lot of what you posted about your boyfriend's experiences. Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out. It's good to know more about just how wheelchair users are affected by the patdowns and what can happen. I actually saw a nurse work with him not long after I'd first seen a TSA agent pat him down, and the difference in even how they move their hands is really noticeable. The TSA agents were just confused and clumsy. I realize it's not their fault for not knowing because it's really specific knowledge, but it was still disconcerting watching them jostle him around. Some people with disabilities are just fine with the TSA; others have horror stories. The problem is that the horror stories tend to be really, really bad, and are exacerbated by the attitudes of some of the TSA agents involved. I really think the TSA could make a huge difference just by not having their agents bark at people or speak to them in condescending or overly authoritarian tones. Regarding the girl in this case, I don't have any experience with people with spina bifida, but just going from what spina bifida is, I imagine her parents had similar concerns about the risks of someone else manipulating her body.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 12:55 |
|
|
If you're willing to blow up a plane full of people, I don't imagine you have any issues with sticking the bomb on a handicapped child.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 13:15 |
|
|
Acute Angina posted:Haha are you loving kidding me? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. As long as we’re playing anecdotes here, I’ve been patted down by the TSA, and it was less thorough than in the movies. That’s probably because actors are doing it by the book and want it to look good, whereas TSA agents pat down dozens of people every day and don’t give a poo poo.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 13:23 |
|
|
Acute Angina posted:Haha are you loving kidding me? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. Next time I fly, I'm gonna really focus on getting a boner before being patted down. Awkwardness is a two-way street, pal!
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 13:45 |
|
|
The really important distinction that 80% of posters in this thread is missing is that since the inception of the TSA and everything else security in the USA post September 11th there has NOT been any documented cases of TSA preventing or catching a single terrorist threat - this is the main charter of and why the TSA was created. TSA does not exist in any other country and in fact are not used in many airports (MCI and SFO come to mind where private security is used, although is it important to note that airports with private security are still regulated by the TSA). Every confiscation and blog post listed shows items that would have been caught by pre-9/11 security measures, the same ones used in basically every other airport in the world. TSA are not experts at weapon and threat identification, they miss as many items as they catch. TSA does not hire arms experts, they hire regular people, often with little or no security background. Also, let us keep in mind it costs us $8B annually to keep TSA around. TSA policy is largely based on things that have happened in the past. Counter-threat agencies fully understand that dangerous entities will leverage children, women, etc. to move dangerous items on to planes. A child in a wheelchair with a harmful device would be caught by traditional screening methods. Anyone looking to do serious damage, however, would not ever do this. Consider if you were a reasonably smart criminal (again, the ones TSA is chartered to stop), what is the likelihood you would repeat history and try to move contraband concealed in your shoe or in a wheelchair bound child, fully knowing that TSA screens for this action? I bet it isn't very high. For example, with TSA Pre-Check someone with modest airline status can skip "TSA security" and will go through a security model identical to pre-TSA security. For a professional organization looking to do damage this is an incredibly easy loophole to work around. There is an enormous distinction here, and again, lets not kid ourselves, the real threats are not amateurs, which will not be well thought out and be likely to fail with traditional screening policies, they will be professional plots with training and lots of financial backing. The TSA, who can't even follow their own rule book (ask me how I know) and has no real security knowledge isn't likely to stop this. The smart thing to do with our money is to proactively figure out new threats and risk and pour resources in to things that work, such as threat intelligence, emergency response etc. instead of to hinder and inconvenience the general public based on past threats that are unlikely to occur again by a dangerous entity. Instead we spend billions on methods that do not make us safer or more secure as compared to traditional security screening. With that said, many agree that reinforced cockpit doors are a useful thing to come out of all of this, so there is that. Disclaimer: I fly around 300,000 miles a year and have seen every TSA blunder in the book.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 13:56 |
|
|
Falciform posted:If you're willing to blow up a plane full of people, I don't imagine you have any issues with sticking the bomb on a handicapped child. Which proves that they don't actually give a good goddamn. All they're concerned with is balancing the perception of security with the reality of loving over thousands of people. Belldandy posted:Disclaimer: I fly around 300,000 miles a year and have seen every TSA blunder in the book. Better not publish that book or you'll end up on their watchlist of journalists who pose a threat to national security in the competence of the TSA. thehumandignity fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2013 around 14:06 |
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:03 |
|
|
The real solution to all of this is to staff TSA with cuties so patdowns do double duty as a happy beginning.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:16 |
|
|
I notice that nobody's brought up that the only reason the media gives a gently caress about the TSA is because of manufactured outrage from the Republican party with the intent of blocking them from unionizing.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:22 |
|
|
WickedIcon posted:I notice that nobody's brought up that the only reason the media gives a gently caress about the TSA is because of manufactured outrage from the Republican party with the intent of blocking them from unionizing. Good, don't let them. Fire every single one of them and Kareem that worthless agency into the shitcan.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:26 |
|
|
The TSA should just keep a non metallic wheelchair at the checkpoint like Patrick Stewart had in X-Men so they can move handicapped people onto it to push through the scanner. Alternatively have all the airport provided wheelchairs be scanner friendly so people can just use those the whole time.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:27 |
|
|
Hot Jam posted:The TSA should just keep a non metallic wheelchair at the checkpoint like Patrick Stewart had in X-Men so they can move handicapped people onto it to push through the scanner. Alternatively have all the airport provided wheelchairs be scanner friendly so people can just use those the whole time. Most if not all wheelchairs are specifically fit for the person who uses them. they are not "one size fits all"
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:32 |
|
|
Hot Jam posted:The TSA should just keep a non metallic wheelchair at the checkpoint like Patrick Stewart had in X-Men so they can move handicapped people onto it to push through the scanner. Alternatively have all the airport provided wheelchairs be scanner friendly so people can just use those the whole time. I thought they did this normally. Like, security is where you check your wheelchair and you simply use an airport provided one until you get on the plane, then pick up another until you get down to pick up your own at checked baggage/planeside/whatever. I wouldn't think the demand for wheelchairs at an airport at any one time would be so large that it would be a problem to store them and whatnot, would it?
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:33 |
|
|
I saw a 90 year-old woman in a wheelchair being screened when I was returning from overseas. They didn't pat her down, but they made her stand up while they scanned her with a metal detector wand. She looked very uncomfortable the whole time, but who knows... maybe she was going to pull a Tio from Breaking Bad
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:35 |
|
|
OlmanRiver posted:Most if not all wheelchairs are specifically fit for the person who uses them. they are not "one size fits all" That doesn't mean you can't seat handicapped people in a "one size fits all", generic wheelchair for a short amount of time. Every single hospital has generic wheelchairs that are perfectly capable of holding handicapped people for the purpose of carting them around from point A to point B. The reason why personal wheelchairs are specifically tailored to the person they belong is because they spend all day in them, not because a generic, non-tailored one would be incapable of carting them around (for a very brief amount of time, no less).
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:40 |
|
|
^ it was very personalized humannature posted:I'm glad the TSA is here to pat down the scary 3-year old so I can feel safe and avoid wetting myself at the thought of the terrorists out to get me. It's okay guys, let's spend a ton of money on this elaborate kabuki play instead of on the countless other things that people are actually likely to die from. You're telling me they shouldn't have stopped her.....  The real actual chair from the story.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 14:44 |
|
|
Did she survive the pat down? I know a parent doesn't like to see their child "accused of being a terrorist". But kids take cues from their parents. 99.999% of kids will go through a pat down and not even think about it 8 seconds later. They deal with far more stressful stuff on the school playground.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 15:11 |
|
|
CarlosTheDwarf posted:Did she survive the pat down? She wasn't patted down.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 15:13 |
|
|
God drat it! This completely ruins my plan to dress up like a 3 year old disabled girl and smuggle heroin onto planes.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 15:17 |
|
|
Death Himself posted:What is the alternative when dozens of people a week are trying to sneak weapons and explosives onto planes by hiding them inside the linings of their bags, inside handles, in their underwear and wherever else they think won't be checked? Just let them carry around all these weapons? Regular loving airport security caught the same poo poo for YEARS. They just didn't blog about it to justify their budget and outrageous behavior.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 15:21 |
|
|
From the TSA blog: " Baltimore Ravens Fans: If you’re traveling with a live Raven, please alert your airline and check out our page on traveling with pets. San Francisco 49er Fans: Kaepernicking is permissible at the airport; however, gold mining implements such as pick axes and shovels are prohibited in the cabin of the aircraft." How many people did they expect to be bringing these things with them? Do Ravens fans really bring live ravens with them to games? What do Bears fans bring? "Concealment flasks: We’ve seen them all. Binocular flasks, beer bellies, cell phone flasks, cane flasks, pen flasks, flip-flop flasks, you name it… You may be able to sneak these into concerts and sporting events, but we’ll find them at the airport." What if I have a flask shaped like a gun and shoot beer into my mouth? Two wrongs make a right, yeah? On a more serious note, I can understand why they would check a handicapped 3y/o and really anyone for that matter. If you leave any exceptions to the security measures, bad people with exploit it. It comes down to a balance between civil liberties and security. There is a cost for being safe, although the TSA does not seem terribly effective at catching the real major threats. Maybe that is because the real threats aren't there. Perhaps the TSA is acting as a bit of a deterrent for terrorists.
|
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 15:22 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2013 02:07 |
|
|
SpaceGirlArt posted:I don't understand the freakout over pats. There's nothing wrong with a pat. They're more effective than the metal detector and less intrusive than the scanner. It's like the least offensive thing in the world where someone lightly pats your body. I don't have a solution to this incident, and am very thankful it wasn't me, but you must not have kids. The LAST thing I want is for my three year old daughter to think, is that it is OK to be lightly patted down by strangers. edit: Yes, I know she wasn't patted down. Just illustrating some fears I would have as a parent. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2013 around 15:55 |
| # ? Feb 22, 2013 15:53 |
|
