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Today I was talking politics with two friends/classmates of mine, when eventually the topic of immigration comes up. It started with the h-1b visa topic. I was talking about how the current system was really hosed up and most employers just wanted employees they could squeeze more, that they should give visa holders the rights to more easily jump around and find new companies if need be. Some how this moved onto non-professional illegal immigration, which invariably means Hispanics. When my friend Jill(not really named Jill) interjects with "yea that's why people should get their guns and shoot them". In her extremely limited defense it was in reference to "ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS". I would have till today considered Jill a friend, even a good friend. I live 25 minutes away from campus, so Jill lets me use her kitchen/house everyday to make lunch. We usually work on homework together, and in fact are group mates in our major engineering lab. Shes always been very nice to me, the thing is I am Hispanic.I am very European looking, probably the whitest in my family; but I have always been proud to be Hispanic, and have never even tried to remotely hide the fact. There had been hints of racism, but i figured she was in a transition stage. She grew up in the south and I know a lot of people grow out of that kind of thought in college. Hell my sisters girlfriend once was a republican racist, now a ultra progressive lib. I've always believed in peoples ability to grow. That people can become more than they were yesterday. That you have to just give people a chance. I personally have made a lot of changes in my life, so I know its more than possible. In the past I was a terrible misogynist, but thanks to THIS VERY FORUM(lf,not e/n) I changed my thinking. When she said that, all i could some how say was "that's pretty racist".She of course quickly jumped in with the ONLY ILLEGALS defense, and i just sorta commented on how she wanted to execute people just for crossing some imaginary border and she went quite, and the topic changed from there. I was really caught off guard by it, and it didn't really hit me till i got home. Am I over reacting goons? I have to put up with this person till the end of the semester regardless because of my engineering lab.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:00 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 12:31 |
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As an engineer, let me give you a tip if you're going into engineering after college - never, ever talk about politics, religion, etc. You will end up either losing all respect for your coworkers or you'll have a shouting match during lunch.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:08 |
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I love talking to Americans because it is literally the only country where people unironically argue that everyone in the world has the right to live there regardless of local laws. If only Germany or Korea were also so generous! I tend to avoid politics when it comes to my friends, it just makes your life more complicated or living where I do it can bring legal issues. If I were you I'd just forget about it. Of course I'm not Hispanic so its easy for me to say.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:08 |
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Honestly, this really comes down to one of those personal preference kind of things: what is your personal threshold for other people's racism? If you guys are totally cool with each other 95% of the time, and race never comes up, you could easily overlook this. I mean it would suck on a certain level to know they are prejudiced like that, but if it never becomes an issue in the day-to-day run of things with them, it usually doesn't matter. It's more about how much you are willing to put up with it when it DOES rear it's ugly head. Politics is in the same bed. You can casually mention it, but for the most part you should stay the hell away from it if you want to stay friends.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:10 |
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That kind of thing can be kind of distressing, so I wouldn't say you're necessarily overreacting. I do think a pretty good policy is to avoid political topics with people unless you can be certain they're willing to have a rational discussion.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:11 |
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Omnicarus posted:As an engineer, let me give you a tip if you're going into engineering after college - never, ever talk about politics, religion, etc. You will end up either losing all respect for your coworkers or you'll have a shouting match during lunch. Is it really libertarians all the way down? Maybe you guys are correct, I should avoid talking about politics. It's just really hard for me because I am a huge political junkie.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:16 |
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Xeom posted:Is it really libertarians all the way down? If she's OK with talking politics, it's not a problem. Just don't expect her to agree with you, and don't turn every conversation into an argument that you have to win. Talking about it so as to figure out how she thinks and why she believes what she does may be quite instructive.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:25 |
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I'm kind of on the other side of thinking here. There's a huge difference between agreeing to disagree over stuff like the DREAM act or giving government ID's to undocumented immigrants but she seems firmly in the "these people are not human" camp. If that kind of thing is distressing to you, as a non-crazy person, then I'd advise just packing lunch for school and just sticking to saying hi when you pass each other.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:31 |
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A sure-fire path to popularity is to inject politics into the workplace/your Applied Materials science class.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:35 |
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No, you're not overreacting. It's not overreacting to be upset when someone is advocating murdering illegal immigrants, even as a joke. (Please tell me she was joking.) Especially when you and she and I and everybody in here know that she's thinking about Hispanic people when she says it. However, you are also right to hope that her worldview will widen as she matures; it does happen. The question is, do you want to be a part of that process, or even an observer? Is she that good a friend? ETA: Dirtbag Diva put it better. If she really thinks that way, she is nuts. Stay away. tiercel fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2013 around 01:43 |
| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:41 |
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tiercel posted:No, you're not overreacting. It's not overreacting to be upset when someone is advocating murdering illegal immigrants, even as a joke. (Please tell me she was joking.) Especially when you and she and I and everybody in here know that she's thinking about Hispanic people when she says it. she wasn't joking in anyway. She is a friend, and I think I am just going to confront her about it.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:56 |
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Xeom posted:she wasn't joking in anyway. She is a friend, and I think I am just going to confront her about it. I think if you frame it as how "her" words affected "you" rather than framing it as a political point the conversation will go better. A lot of people who hold opinions like hers do so because they've always been able to view these abhorrent opinions as "just another conversation on politics" rather than "encouraging murder".
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 02:17 |
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No, you're not overreacting to reconsider your friendship with her. Don't get your hopes up about changing her mind though. It takes years of practice to be that stupid and hateful. If you do continue the discussion, make sure to bring up that "illegal immigration" is not actually a criminal act.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 02:19 |
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Xeom posted:Is it really libertarians all the way down?
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 02:28 |
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we weren't even arguing it was really me and this other girl talking and she commented every once in a while. I have no problem with having friends with differing views. One of my best friends of all time was completely religious, and I am a atheist. We always laughed about how great of friends we were despite our differing views. I always enjoy listening to his opinions, and having real discussions about our beliefs. Its just that most people are interested in "winning" conversations.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 02:38 |
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I bet if you talk to her -- if you're friends -- she can be told why what she said was terrible. No doubt, it was terrible, but she's been surrounded by that for years. I'm sure your friendship will be fine provided you can communicate. That being said, avoid politics in the future. If you do not have the ability to separate the politics from a person, then you will really start to hate people.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 02:43 |
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Xeom posted:She grew up in the south. This is not a defense or an excuse. Do you think those being discriminated against agree with the racists? It's just assholes taking advantage of their situation.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 02:46 |
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Talking politics is stupid. No one ever changes their opinion and people just like to vent and tell you why they are right and you are wrong.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 03:14 |
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Bippie Mishap posted:This is not a defense or an excuse. Do you think those being discriminated against agree with the racists? It's just assholes taking advantage of their situation. Being the discriminated I can assure you no.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 03:39 |
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Never talk about religion or politics, that's the best policy.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 05:35 |
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EasternBronze posted:A sure-fire path to popularity is to inject politics into the workplace/your Applied Materials science class. katkillad2 posted:Never talk about religion or politics, that's the best policy. Quixotic fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2013 around 05:51 |
| # ? Feb 26, 2013 05:49 |
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Quixotic posted:You know what is an even faster path to popularity? Injecting racism into that same environment. Don't act like he's the one that did something wrong. Actually man, if you feel the need to lecture your friends on the Totally Not OK Things they say, you should just stop being friends with them.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 07:02 |
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BillNyeTheNaziSpy posted:Actually man, if you feel the need to lecture your friends on the Totally Not OK Things they say, you should just stop being friends with them. I don't think saying, 'I found it really disturbing that you were talking about people like me as though we're subhuman' is a smug liberal 'lecture on Totally Not OK Things'. I think it's a decent human response and, more to the point, might make her consider that 'illegal immigrants' are people too, not an alien Other. OP, I would speak to her in those terms, once, bearing in mind that she'll probably be horribly defensive if she feels ashamed of herself. Then leave it and avoid/stick to bland subjects unless she shows she wants to engage intelligently. Personally I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who believes in murdering people for border violations.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 08:34 |
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I simply would not be friends with a shithead like this. It's one thing to want to deport illegal immigrants but advocating executing them is uh, yeah that's a little drastic. I get enough lovely political viewpoints from strangers and I don't feel like wasting my time cultivating serious friendships with people like this. I mean if we disagree on taxes that's one thing, but stuff that's based off racism, homophobia and all that poo poo...nah.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 08:53 |
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Don't be friends with racists.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 10:12 |
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If it genuinely bothered you, OP, then you should tell her why it bothered you personally and then probably not talk about things like that with her. It's ok to be her friend. People (progressive people, too) will say they believe all kinds of things that they never intend to act on and wouldn't approve of if they were ACTUALLY happening, and that's ok. She's not hanging out in the desert with a sniper rifle on the weekends (I assume). If you feel like you have to speak up because SOCIAL JUSTICE, IMO, you should do the lady a favor by refraining from using her kitchen and finding some like minded people to hang around and feel superior with instead. Quixotic posted:You know what is an even faster path to popularity? Injecting racism into that same environment. Don't act like he's the one that did something wrong. Do not become this guy
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 12:29 |
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I don't really understand the "never talk about politics with friends" edict. Politics are essentially how we think the world should be run and an extension of our own beliefs. Sometimes they are very personal. I'd drat sure like to know if my "friends" are against some social issues like marriage equality, or if they're a birther or something insane. It's not losing a friend over "politics" - its understanding what makes them tick - and then using that information to decide if this is someone who should be in your life. If I knew someone who thought shooting people for illegal immigration status was a good idea? I'd stay pretty far away, despite an accessible kitchen.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 13:03 |
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wateroverfire posted:If it genuinely bothered you, OP, then you should tell her why it bothered you personally and then probably not talk about things like that with her. It's ok to be her friend. People (progressive people, too) will say they believe all kinds of things that they never intend to act on and wouldn't approve of if they were ACTUALLY happening, and that's ok. She's not hanging out in the desert with a sniper rifle on the weekends (I assume). Casual racism exists because people are too pussy to say: "Hey, that's racist and uncool. Stop." You don't have to link them to your social justice tumblr, just call them out on their loving racism and make it clear you want no part of it. 'Just don't mention politics and hope she won't mention killing brown people ever again' is a pathetic solution.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 13:10 |
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You know what? No one ever stopped being racist because all their friends just ignored their weird racist outbursts and changed the topic to something inoffensive. Peer-pressure can actually work in positive ways. It might not work, but at least making the effort to calmly say "Hey, dude, saying you want to shoot all the hispanic immigrants isn't cool, and it comes off as sounding kind of racist. You know I am hispanic, and that conversation made me pretty uncomfortable." If she then wants to debate you about it in a non-productive way or says "Well, I didn't mean your kind of hispanic" or whatever, then yeah, your friend is a racist piece of poo poo and you should find somewhere else to reheat your lasagna. The key to this isn't to focus on sort of big abstract picture stuff. The key to stopping your friends from being vocally racist is to point out that they are hurting you, their friend. Also, being from the South is no excuse for racism. I live in the South and most people I know wouldn't tolerate that bullshit either.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 13:21 |
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wateroverfire posted:Do not become this guy Yeah, sure, some of the tone wasn't great, but all that dude said is that there are ways to engage in political discussions that both allow you to express yourself and that aren't just one person shaming or talking down to another. Dismissing that sentiment because SOCIAL JUSTICE is pretty close-minded. StrangersInTheNight fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2013 around 16:31 |
| # ? Feb 26, 2013 16:28 |
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Eris posted:I don't really understand the "never talk about politics with friends" edict. Politics are essentially how we think the world should be run and an extension of our own beliefs. Sometimes they are very personal. I'd drat sure like to know if my "friends" are against some social issues like marriage equality, or if they're a birther or something insane. It's not losing a friend over "politics" - its understanding what makes them tick - and then using that information to decide if this is someone who should be in your life. It kind of sounds like you are implying you want to know your friends political stances to make sure they are aligned with your own. This is the problem with politics/religion because the vast majority of people, friends or not, can't have that kind of conversation while respecting other peoples opinions regardless if they are ignorant or not. The moment you are talking about religion/politics in a school or work setting you are opening yourself up for uncomfortable situations. Personally I don't care if someone is a democrat, republican, atheist or christian...if I picked my friends based on religion, politics and casual racism then i'd probably not have any friends or family at this point. The best thing people can do is just pretend politics don't exist, your life would be much more enjoyable and less stressful. As far as the OP goes, obviously it wasn't her intentions to offend or upset him or she wouldn't be letting him use her kitchen all this time. If you want to keep using that sweet sweet kitchen your options are either to confront her and hope she has a learning experience or mark her as racist and find another kitchen to use.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 18:38 |
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Eris posted:I don't really understand the "never talk about politics with friends" edict. Politics are essentially how we think the world should be run and an extension of our own beliefs. Sometimes they are very personal. I think the main reasons are (a) because there's quite a broad range of political views that you can have and still be a decent human being, (b) the fact that your views fall within that range doesn't mean you aren't passionate about them, so it's likely there'll be arguments and (c) it's such a subjective area that it's very unlikely any argument is going to change anyone's mind. That's by-the-by, though, because shooting illegal immigrants isn't a reasonable political viewpoint by the definition of anyone who's worth caring about. I think the OP's entitled to be offended in much the same way as a black person would be if someone started going on about how they should clean up the inner city by machine gunning all the criminals. It's not direct racism, but it is indirectly because there is a social stereotype that "inner city criminal=black" in the same way as (in the US) "illegal immigrant=Hispanic." I think the OP should say something to his friend along the lines of "You can think what you like about this, but this offends me and I don't want to hear it again." Whether you choose to be friends with her knowing that she thinks this is your decision (and having to work with her might be a reason for turning a blind eye there), but you can't let her talk to you like this and stay friends. Friends respect each other's feelings. This isn't respectful.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 19:36 |
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I talk politics with people from every part of the spectrum. Why? Well it's really awkward when, say, you have some LBGTQ friends at a party and it turns out another guest is not shy about their homophobia. Or you have a friend from Pakistan who practices Islam and people start cracking jokes about Muslims and terrorists, or how we should "glass" any given part of Africa/the middle east (IRL examples). In those cases I don't argue with people, but I do tell them that they will not be invited to future events because they chose to express opinions that were mean to other people. No arguing, but they often put together that they were in the wrong and there is probably a good reason that a bunch of people are mad at them and don't want them around. OP, YOU have the right to not be around people who talk about undocumented immigrants like they aren't human, and she has a right to go on believing whatever she wants. But if she's your friend, she'll probably appreciate the opportunity to understand how the way she expresses her beliefs affects you. I grew up super conservative and Christian, with only Christian talk radio and my parents to inform my views of the world at large. I changed because people challenged my opinions. But some people won't ever budge; I think the key is to remember it's not your job to "enlighten" every single person who thinks different than you.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 20:29 |
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These are the most annoying threads on the internet. An OP talking about how liberal/progressive/forward thinking/pro-equality they are and "Oh my gosh! A racist/religious zealot/republican said something which is both rude and contradicts our moral values! What ever should I do?!" React to the situation the way a goddamn human would react, any way you please. Have some emotion, for gently caress sake! Don't come crawling to the internet for advice on how to be a person. Either let it go and don't get into politics or bitch her out and find some new friends that aren't assholes. Are you capable of making other friends, or do you need the internet to teach you how to do that, too? cname fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2013 around 20:42 |
| # ? Feb 26, 2013 20:38 |
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cname posted:These are the most annoying threads on the internet. An OP talking about how liberal/progressive/forward thinking/pro-equality they are and "Oh my gosh! A racist/religious zealot/republican said something which is both rude and contradicts our moral values! What ever should I do?!"
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 21:10 |
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InvisibleMonkey posted:Actually, none of that behaviour is ok and it's most def not ok to be friends with someone who is racist against your race unless you're all about self-hatred or something. If it's personally offensive to you then sure, say something, because if they're your friend they probably didn't intend to offend you. If they said something that might have been indirectly racist when talking about a hot button issue and you get indignant at them just because RACISM, next time you're fixing lunch at their place they should probably tell you their kitchen just became segregated and your side is out in the street.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 21:28 |
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Nobody is saying get incredibly pissy at them for it but it's really not okay to just let racism go past and try to downplay how awful racism and prejudice actually is. Do you really just ignore it when someone is racist/homophobic or whatever because it's not directly offensive to you?
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 21:33 |
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NoneSuch posted:Nobody is saying get incredibly pissy at them for it but it's really not okay to just let racism go past and try to downplay how awful racism and prejudice actually is. Do you really just ignore it when someone is racist/homophobic or whatever because it's not directly offensive to you? If they're not being obnoxious about it or offensive to me or someone with me (or someone I know if it's specific), then I'm not going to make a big deal of it. The universe doesn't need me to white knight for the hypothetical people who might have been offended by some comment had they been present. I'm not trying to say you should never never question someone's racist beliefs. I just think busting out with "dude that's racism and that's not ok" is self-righteous claptrap and that there are better ways to engage about it than getting all I'm-more-progressive-than-you.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 22:09 |
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Dude, she said that illegal immigrants should be executed to a Hispanic person. Getting offended by that isn't self-righteous claptrap and it's disingenuous to even begin to call it that because you have a bone to pick with the very concept of being socially aware. The OP is coming asking for advice on how he can approach it without being holier-than-thou. What more do you want? Like, what are you raging against except the concept of any social dialogue whatsoever? StrangersInTheNight fucked around with this message at Feb 26, 2013 around 22:38 |
| # ? Feb 26, 2013 22:35 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 12:31 |
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If you really want to confront her about it, why not something more like "Hey Susan, that thing you said the other day about the shooting the immigrants. I know I'm reading waaaay too much into this but that's been bothering me. What was up with that?" and see where she goes with it. If it were me, I'd wait and see if anything else comes up like that, and then I'd go in with something like "You know that's the second time you've said something like that and it's kinda weird. What's up with that poo poo?" If you go in accusing her of racism you're just going to be putting her on the defensive right away and she's just going to dig in deeper or just make a weird explanation and stop hanging out with you. Also, do you talk about stuff other than politics? Can you have a conversation that doesn't involve a cause or how the system is hosed up? I'm only asking because the possibility does exist that your friend was trying to steer the topic onto more mundane poo poo and was just trying to end the conversation. If you two normally talk about movies and whatever, yeah that is weird. If you've honestly never had a conversation with her that wasn't about how hosed up government, she may just be tired of hearing it.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 22:44 |
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