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So, I'm looking to get into the Violin! I'd really like to record with it eventually, but baby steps etc. The problem is I have no idea what violins are crap or fantastic. I have no idea what even makes them better than other violins. I'm completely and utterly clueless as to where to start shopping except for one little bonus: I can get Eastman String products at dealer cost. For obvious reasons, I'm looking at Eastman String products, but that doesn't stem my curiosity about Violin workmanship, quality and the like. As for me, I'm a classically trained pianist and a mediocre sax player. Tell me about the Violin, where I should start looking, what I should look for, and other stuff I should know because I am completely clueless!
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 16:48 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 06:46 |
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I used to play, I don't know a ton but the one thing I can say is get a good bow because you won't want to listen to yourself playing with a crappy bow.
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| # ? Feb 26, 2013 19:45 |
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I don't know much about specific things too look for, but a lot of music stores do "rent to own" deals. It's great to be able to try out an instrument for an extended period of time before you commit to buying it.Cymbal Monkey posted:I used to play, I don't know a ton but the one thing I can say is get a good bow because you won't want to listen to yourself playing with a crappy bow. I'll second this. I play bass, and while I don't own one I do have my own bow. It made playing on loaner instruments much more bearable.
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 00:03 |
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As obvious as this sounds, if you are looking at student-line instruments, you are going to get a student-line instrument. That is to say, the quality of materials used in the crafting of the instrument are going to promote durability over tone quality. Eastman looks to carve the student models, so that is a plus over the pressed/molded laminates that you find cheap on the internet. As you read descriptions of violins, seeing words like "fully carved," "ebony fingerboard and pegs," and maple or spruce can be a good sign. A decent student model violin will generally MSRP for around $300-400. For this, you will usually get an instrument that can be tuned and set up correctly. Many of the cheaper model student instruments have fine tuners that are more for show than intonation. Luthiers, or a dedicated shop, are a decent starting point for picking an instrument. They would be able to show you models and explain craftsmanship, as well as service/set-up an instrument that you purchase. As others have stated, the bow is an extremely important factor in sound production and tone quality. A good bow will generally be made of pernambuco (brazilwood) wood, but carbon-fiber bows have come a long way. If you plan on getting a teacher (I would highly recommend having someone show you a proper bow hold), they can/will further advise you on upgrading a bow. Unless you purchase a violin package from a reputable dealer/luthier, I would consider most packaged student bows to be fairly useless. They warp easily, and I rarely find them to be balanced correctly. As for recording, I have seen some pretty awful violins record amazingly due to the engineer's choice of microphone and its placement. Paws for Help fucked around with this message at Feb 27, 2013 around 01:54 |
| # ? Feb 27, 2013 01:47 |
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Former professional violinist and sound engineer with decades of playing and recording experience here. VIOLINS You can get reasonably crafted violins at almost any price point down to $150 or so. When I say "reasonably crafted", I mean that the instrument is mathematically correct without warpage, and the tuning mechanisms work reasonably well. Most anything under $800 is going to be entirely machine-made, whereas instruments between $800-$4000 while often have individual hand-crafted elements with the remainder and overall assembly done by machine. Spending more will get you a fully handcrafted instrument. For most people who have never played violin before who ask me for advice on an instrument, I tell them that as long as the instrument meets the "reasonably crafted" criteria, it doesn't really matter much how good the instrument is right at first, so you might as well save some money and just get some plywood violin. Violins are not like guitars this way. With guitars, a cheaper instrument will be more difficult to learn on and have inferior playability. By contrast, a cheaper violin will put some limits on how far you can progress with the instrument ultimately (you can expect to "outgrow" a $200 violin after about a year of dedicated practice), but puts no real limits on initial learning. I'll spare you the typical speech about violin being impossible for an adult to learn. The reality is that it's not; it simply requires an inhuman amount of dedication compared to guitar or piano as an adult. If you truly feel that you might be able to bring this kind of dedication to bear, it may be worth thinking about spending more. If you're sticking to the Eastman Strings violins, something like the VL305 would probably be sufficient for learning anything up to lower-tier virtuoso material. I myself played a similar instrument in high school and could even do reasonably well with literature like the Mendelssohn E Minor Concerto with it. BOWS I can't recommend modern carbon fiber enough! I used a very nice $2000 bow until it lost an unfortunate competition with a revolving door last year. The $600 bow I replaced it with not only sounds almost as good (carbon bows used to not contribute to the sound at all, but now they do thanks to the use of kevlar acoustic cores), but even handles better than the more expensive wooden bow ever did. I believe that if your budget is high enough, a wooden bow becomes a better option again, but I doubt you're wanting to spend thousands on a bow. Again, like the violin, a cheap $50 is sufficient for learning the basics, but if you think you might stick with it, consider a nice carbon fiber bow. There are many opinions out there about brands, but I personally find Coda bows to be a fairly safe bet. At any given price point, you might find a better deal with someone else, but Coda is definitely safe, and you'll get what you pay for with them at any price point. I personally use a Joule, and couldn't be happier with it. ACCESSORIES This is something a lot of people getting into violin don't think about, largely through ignorance. There are several things that you simply MUST have. You MUST have rosin. This is a crystallized tree sap that you use to coat the hair of your bow, which is what gives the bow gripping strength. Without it, your instrument will make no sound. A single cake of rosin should last even the busiest professional years of use, and will cost between $5-$15, so there's literally NO good reason to skimp on it. There are darker and lighter colored rosins. Lighter rosin is almost always better for violin (where darker tends to work better for lower strings), unless you live somewhere that is consistently cool and dry like Canada or something. There are a variety of materials. Personally, I like the tone of gold rosin the best, but copper rosin is supposed to be a little nicer for beginners because the grip the bow makes with the string is a little more defined. In general, apply rosin across the hair, paying special attention to the ends, until you just barely feel it start to "stick". You shouldn't need to rosin every single time you play unless like me, you wind up playing lots of 3-hour gigs with a mariachi band where you have to blast everything you play cus you're competing 1:1 for volume with trumpet players. You MUST have a shoulder rest. A chunk of foam with a rubber band can do in a pinch, but that's some ghetto rear end poo poo. You see, one of the very first things that's important to master about the violin to ever be able to play one comfortably, is to be able to keep one held up with a firm grip, but without using either hand. To do this, you need something that widens the instrument between the points of contact of your jawbone and your collarbone, and provides a friction surface so the instrument doesn't slip. I know they seem like an unnecessary expense, but you can't go wrong with a Kun. If you get a Kun Collapsible, it's easier to fit it into your violin case with your instrument. Speaking of... Cases...don't NECESSARILY need one if the instrument's just gonna stay at home, but in that case you should at least invest in a violin studio stand so that it isn't just laying around where it can get knocked over. Sky's the limit on how much you wanna spend on a case. You can get fitted cases if you only wanna tote an instrument with a couple essential accessories. You can get an oblong case if you want to tote more accessories and sheet music. You can even get double violin cases that can fit two instruments. You can get cases with hygrometers, you can even get cases that have a hygrometer AND a humidifier. I rather like Bobelock cases myself. They're a fairly new Filipino brand that has excellent durability and lots of features for a relatively low price. If you're super vain, you can get a violin case like the one my inheritance came with - a fitted case made from Italian leather and alligator skin. You can even get covers that go over your case. I had a really cool one in music school that offered more places to stow sheet music and turned the whole thing into a backpack! You'll probably want a good cleaning cloth. Something nice and smooth. Microfiber cloths work well. You'll need this to clean up rosin after you're done playing. The longer you let rosin sit on your instrument, the harder it is to clean later, and if you let it sit there long enough, it can eventually start eating away at the varnish on the instrument, worsening the tone and lowering the violin's value. There are also solutions you can purchase that helps rosin come up more easily (some WILL get deeply embedded eventually without such a solution, no matter how often you clean). Violin polish can be nice to have too to keep your instrument looking nice and shiny, and well-protected. Do not store either of these solutions inside a case with an instrument though. You don't wanna risk the possibility of one breaking open and getting everywhere. Peg paste can be nice to have. If you have trouble with tuning pegs running smoothly (a common problem since violins use tension-based pegs in lieu of the locking tuners on a guitar), a little peg paste will fix it right up. If you have the opposite problem, a piece of sandpaper will do. And if you're already getting a large checkout cart with the other stuff, you might wanna go ahead and spring $3 more for a chinrest tightener. It's really just a piece of slim stiff bent metal (honestly useful for other non-violin things too), but if you ever get a hair to replace your chinrest, or your current one comes loose, it's nice to have one around. Also, if you decide to play around with violin pickups, a lot of them are attached using the same keying as a chinrest. Other than those, you're probably fine. Since you're already a musician, you probably have a metronome already, and if you've got the ear for it, you can use your piano to tune your instrument. RECORDING Industry standard for recording violin is a Shure SM-81 about 2 feet away above and in front of the f-holes pointed off axis. It'll get you a decent bright standard-sounding violin recording, though it'll sound a bit impersonal unless you record it in a very dry room. Personally, I find I can make superior recordings using a good ribbon microphone that's put just a few inches away (the faster transient response on a condenser mic like the SM-81 means it needs greater distance the pick up every overtone, unlike ribbon/dynamic models). I personally love using a Beyerdynamic M160. Of course, not only are these microphones more expensive, but in order to capture a good clean recording, you'll need a much higher quality microphone pre-amp that excels at providing high gain with clarity. I personally use a Summit Audio 2ba-221. On the cheaper end of things, nothing wrong with a good ol' SM-57. They sound at least reasonably good at almost anything! And, being dynamic, you can get a decent tone without a super-treated room by jamming it close to the instrument. Another interesting recording solution would be to get a clip-on microphone system. This has the benefit of being relatively easy to set up (no mic stand to fumble with, no worrying about distance or axis or any of that stuff), and also doubling as a good solution for playing live if you ever decide to do that. I've personally got a DPA4099V that I use in the rare occasion I can play with my mariachi band on a stage wired for sound. I even sing into it for backup vocals! I've recorded with it before, and I still like my M160 better...but it's much closer than I thought! I wouldn't be upset about recording with it at all!
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 03:17 |
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Justus posted:Tons of awesome information Thanks a ton for typing all that up. Insight like that is so very rare and I really appreciate it.
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 05:09 |
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I literally, less than five minutes ago, just bought a $100 Cecilio CVN-200 from Amazon. I would in no way recommend this as a good course of action, but, I've never touched a violin before, I'll likely pick it up twice and then throw it in the closet - I'm impulsive like that - and I've got some spare cash that's burning a hole in my pocket. Still, there was a guy on YouTube, some fiddler guy (no, not thatTube) who did a run-through review of Cecilio's two basic entry models. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zloWv1nS2hU) I figure that I know I'm probably getting crap but it won't matter too much when it's in the corner of the closet and it'll keep me occupied for an hour while the missus is out of town. When it gets here, I'll take some photos and give impressions, but as I say, I've never touched one before let alone played, so I'll not be able to comment on its musical qualities short of "loving terrible" / "murdering cats with children". Awaiting wrath of Justus... 
dotalchemy fucked around with this message at Feb 27, 2013 around 09:20 |
| # ? Feb 27, 2013 09:17 |
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dotalchemy posted:Awaiting wrath of Justus... No wrath here. If you're really gonna just gently caress around for an hour and then toss it in a closet, a $100 violin is probably the best you can do if you don't just know someone who'll let you gently caress around with theirs for awhile. Actually, quite a large number of people, when they learn that I play will ask me to show them a few things. The vast majority of people will decide they've had enough after 30 to 45 minutes of screwing around, about long enough to get the instrument held without hands, the proper bow grip, and a straight bowstroke. This is enough to play open strings with a decently clear tone. The make-or-break point comes right after, when they would need to start using their left fingers to create melodies. This is admittedly far less of an obstacle for someone who at least already has some music experience, and knows what a scale ought to sound like. I will offer an anecdote though. Back when playing music was my primary source of income (and I was super poor), I decided that I wanted to try an electric violin, so I spent about $60 on the cheapest electric I could find on Ebay. I hosed around with it for maybe an hour, and then literally tossed it in the dumpster once I realized it was incapable of making a good sound, and not even worth room in my closet. Of course I didn't know as much then as I know now. The poo poo had a piezo pickup in the TAILPIECE! A brand new acoustic would have to be pretty poo poo to be that bad! Canine Blues Arooo posted:Thanks a ton for typing all that up. Insight like that is so very rare and I really appreciate it. No prob. I know it can be hard to figure some of this stuff out. A lot of it was copy-paste from notes I keep around. I'd say I see a post like yours here about once or twice a year. I love chatting violin. Sadly, it's a harsh mistress to learn as an adult. But I often wonder if it's really because children can adapt their muscle memory more easily or have more time to devote, or if it's just that nobody's really tried developing a good method for teaching adults. Justus fucked around with this message at Feb 27, 2013 around 09:53 |
| # ? Feb 27, 2013 09:45 |
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Learning it is something that am really intimidated by, but I think I've been deep enough in the 'serious music' rabbit hole that I know what to expect. It's such a gorgeous instrument under the performance of an experienced violinist, that I'd kick myself if I didn't try!
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 14:21 |
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Learning it is something that am really intimidated by, but I think I've been deep enough in the 'serious music' rabbit hole that I know what to expect. It's such a gorgeous instrument under the performance of an experienced violinist, that I'd kick myself if I didn't try! I find that vibrato is a major roadblock for experienced musicians that take up a bowed string instrument. Your instrument will generally sound like a dying cat until your bow stroke and vibrato develop. That is to say, don't get discouraged by your initial sounds. Both of those things take a while to develop.
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 16:12 |
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Yeah, I'd say it's not too healthy to dwell on vibrato at all just at first. To start off, just focus on getting a sense for where all the notes are, and bowing with a good clean tone before delving into vibrato. That's a whole other can of worms.
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 17:12 |
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Thankfully, I've owned guitars for about 20 years now and while I'm in no way even an amateur on them, I can play basic chords and a few seconds of popular lead riffs, so the leap of left hand changing notes and right hand bowing hopefully won't be too unexpected for me. Guitars were the other thing I initially spent $100 on and ended up appreciating their visual beauty more than their "in my hands" musical beauty. I'm actually quite excited though. I've been listening to some, what I think, simple sounding violin tunes on YouTube - stuff like Amazing Grace, the intro to Schindler's List and some hymns which didn't appear too hard. I figure that if I can work out how to make open notes, then find the notes on the neck for sections of those, then just maybe I'll be inspired to keep going with it. I made the mistake with guitar of buying a Dire Straits tutorial VHS with my first guitar and promptly gave up. I should have stuck with chords... Off-topic anecdote. Back in ye olden days, when my Dad was at school in the north of England, one of his close friends (to this day) was in a band. They were auditioning for a new guitarist and one of their classmates came in and played a little. They turned him down because they were looking for lead guitar and "he only played chords". I often thank Alan for turning him down, as life would be sad if Mark Knopfler had remained only playing chords... Anyway, what would you recommend as some initial, confidence boosting, achievement melodies and goals?
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| # ? Feb 27, 2013 21:09 |
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dotalchemy posted:Anyway, what would you recommend as some initial, confidence boosting, achievement melodies and goals? If you don't have trouble reading music, there are many decent method books out there, most of which are quite comprehensive. I tend to use new ones every few years, but I always recommend ones that include an accompaniment CD. The current book that I use for orchestra is Orchestra Expressions. Playing with accompaniment encourages better intonation, which is the initial foil of fretless instruments. The key point of using a book is learn and comprehend the basic techniques that are required in later music. The only book that I can think of that I would shy away from would be the Suzuki Method. While they have helped many children become amazing violinists, they really require a teacher to show and explain the beginnings and basics. Goals that I would set: 1. Bow Integrity - The bow creates the vibration that produces sound. Uneven and unsteady bowing creates less characteristic sounds. Work on keeping the bow parallel to the bridge and the edge of the fingerboard, while also keeping the bow hair directly in between both the bridge and fingerboard will help to produce the best sounds. As you are more comfortable keeping the bow in the correct "lane," you can work towards changing strings. 2. Left Hand Position - Practice with a tuner so that you get a feel for where each finger should apply pressure. Muscle memory is key in getting decent intonation. 3. Pentatonics - Once you can control the bow and play somewhat in tune, I would attempt to pick out easy songs that are based on a pentatonic scale, such as Mary Had a Little Lamb, Amazing Grace, or Old McDonald. Of course, if you get a method book, there will be many more songs from which to pick.
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| # ? Feb 28, 2013 01:47 |
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Oh, also http://www.violinmasterclass.com is a pretty good resource for videos showing fundamental technique.
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| # ? Feb 28, 2013 09:36 |
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Thanks guys! I'm realizing that I'll have to add "learning to read musical notation" to this little endeavor. The violin should be delivered today, but it's coming to the office and the shipping room folk are quite particular about when personal packages can be collected, so I must wait a little longer. Paws for Help posted:1. Bow Integrity - The bow creates the vibration that produces sound. Uneven and unsteady bowing creates less characteristic sounds. Work on keeping the bow parallel to the bridge and the edge of the fingerboard, while also keeping the bow hair directly in between both the bridge and fingerboard will help to produce the best sounds. As you are more comfortable keeping the bow in the correct "lane," you can work towards changing strings. For #1, I've been watching a lot of videos on YouTube, tutorials and solo stuff. I was keeping a close eye on their right hand and the motion that the wrist makes - the wrist seems to bend the hand downwards as you stroke towards the strings and upwards as you stroke away? I'm assuming this is to keep the bow level and counteract your elbow acting as the bending part of your bowing arm? For #2, I bought one of them clear plastic sticky strips with the "fret" locations marked on them - I saw a lot of kids on YouTube were using them. Are they a bad idea, in that would I end up relying on them, or will muscle memory work for that too? I don't find myself looking at the neck on the guitar too often, but being fretted, it's a lot more forgiving - I just don't want to start off with bad habits  e: sorry OP for the thread hijack 
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| # ? Feb 28, 2013 20:24 |
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dotalchemy posted:For #1, I've been watching a lot of videos on YouTube, tutorials and solo stuff. I was keeping a close eye on their right hand and the motion that the wrist makes - the wrist seems to bend the hand downwards as you stroke towards the strings and upwards as you stroke away? I'm assuming this is to keep the bow level and counteract your elbow acting as the bending part of your bowing arm? dotalchemy posted:For #2, I bought one of them clear plastic sticky strips with the "fret" locations marked on them - I saw a lot of kids on YouTube were using them. Are they a bad idea, in that would I end up relying on them, or will muscle memory work for that too? I don't find myself looking at the neck on the guitar too often, but being fretted, it's a lot more forgiving - I just don't want to start off with bad habits
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| # ? Feb 28, 2013 21:40 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 06:46 |
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Justus posted:More of less. One of the big things about bowing technique is keeping the elbow locked for all of the stroke except at the bottom of the bow where there's a slight lift. And yes, this is primarily to keep the stroke straight. It's usually a good idea to practice bowing technique in front of a mirror for awhile, because it's almost impossible to tell when the bowstroke is straight from the player's perspective. Just to add to this don't keep your fingers locked tight, they should follow the motions of the bow, similar to the motion when you're throwing something with just your fingers. The bow should be parallel to the strings. When I first started playing (many a moon ago  ) we used whiteout to mark first position. By the time it was worn off you had the muscle memory down. I'd imagine those plastic sticker things work as well, just get used to not looking at your left hand as it's a habit you just shouldn't have. Also I'd start out with some major scales (D major, A major, G major for example) that are played in first position to get the muscle memory down. You should be able to find quite a few simple pieces in those keys that will get your fingers familiar with the fingerboard. Also gently caress suzuki and wohlfahrt.
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| # ? Feb 28, 2013 22:42 |
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