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I posted some of this in the questions thread, but there's a lot that I'm trying to get a hold of and I'd really appreciate any input that you experienced car people can provide. I drive a 2001 Chevy S10 with the 2.2l engine and a 5 speed manual. Right now I have about 67k on the odometer. I can do basic maintenance: oil, brakes, hoses, plugs, wires, that sort of thing. I have a Haynes manual and know a little when it comes to turning a wrench, but this falls beyond where I am comfortable doing anything myself. In October 2011, my clutch started slipping really, really badly. The odometer was sitting around 50k, I don't remember the exact mileage and it is not indicated on my receipt. I had it towed to a local franchise of a national transmission chain. The man I dealt with over the phone, Jimmy, estimated around 6-700 but said it would be more if the hydraulic system was at fault. He later called me and told me that the slave cylinder was shot and overall my repair would be around $900. The bill broke down like this: code:The other day, march 4th 2013, I tried to start my truck to go to work. Odometer says ~67k. Immediately I noticed that the clutch pedal was way too soft. If I started it in gear with the pedal pressed in it would leap forward, and if I started it in neutral it wouldn't let me put it in gear. I checked the master cylinder, it had plenty of fluid. I checked the pedal linkage, everything I saw was solid. I called a different branch of the same national transmission chain and had it towed. I didn't use the old mechanic for two reasons: First, I moved. The new guy is a mile down the road and the old guy is close to 30 miles away. Second, I was extremely wary of taking it back to a place that did what I assumed to be a crappy job. I picked the truck up from the new mechanic today. He told me that the whole clutch was hosed, and he had to replace everything. He was extremely emphatic that he only used OEM parts. The bill broke down like this: code:I went and talked to Jimmy, the man who fixed it in 2011. I asked him to print off a new copy of the bill, then when I saw that the bill said New Clutch Assembly I told him about my situation. I told him that I had an experienced, ASE certified mechanic tell me point blank that it was clearly a remanufactured clutch. Jimmy called his parts distributor, they said they only sent new parts out. I showed him the clutch that was pulled out of my truck, pointed out all of the things that I mentioned above. He says "I'll be honest with you, man. I don't know. I don't put these things in, I deal with the customers." I asked him if I could talk with a tech, he told me I could only do that if I spoke Spanish. He said the shop owner would be in tomorrow and I could talk with him then. I'm not entirely sure what to do. It seems unreasonable to me to ask for a full refund, because I did ride on it for a year or so and labor isn't really something they can send back. If the clutch he installed is a reman, and he charged me for a new one, it seems fair to ask for the money back that I was billed for parts. If this is unreasonable, please let me know. I live in the Greater Atlanta area. My commute is about 30 miles roundtrip, with around 20 highway and 10 freeway. I don't do stupid things with the clutch, and I've been driving one for 7 or 8 years now so I like to think that I know how to drive a stick such that it lasts for more than ~17k miles. I took some pictures of the clutch components, and I hope that you guys will be more able than me to determine whether or not they're new or remanufactured. If I use the wrong terminology, I'm sorry. Clutch Disk: Front, Back and the sticker that raised a red flag:    Pressure Plate: Front, Back and detail of lines indicating possible reman    If you made it this far, frankly, I'm amazed. I have some questions that will help me when I call the shop owner: Does this clutch look remanufactured? If it is, and I have been billed for a new one, am I entitled to any compensation? I know a lot of you are mechanics, do you see anything in this whole affair that I may be missing? I don't want to go throwing around accusations, but based on my second mechanic's vehement testimony I think I've been fleeced. At the end of the day, with the information that I've put forth, do I have any recourse whatsoever, or should I just eat the ~$1700 in clutch repairs and cut my losses?
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 03:09 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 12:17 |
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I don't know much about clutches, but it would seem that you have a good leg to stand on if one branch of a chain gives you a bill that says "NEW PARTS" and another branches says "nope, those were remans." If the first shop won't help, go to the district manager. If they are independently owned franchises, go to corporate.
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 03:48 |
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I dunno, that clutch looks fine. Whats hosed about it? Sounds like you just needed a new slave cylinder.
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 06:12 |
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Those aren't stress cracks - they're machining marks from whenever it was manufactured (or resurfaced, if it was indeed a reman). Stress cracks don't usually follow an exact pattern like that. At least in my experience with rotors, anyway.  It's certainly not an OEM GM clutch, but I can't say one way or the other if it's a reman or new. That said, I'm generally a fan of using OEM parts, unless cost-prohibitive. Especially for something like a clutch. That clutch disc looks fine - like I said, not OEM, but still plenty of life left in it. Did it get soaked with brake fluid? Was the engine's rear main seal leaking oil? Either of those would be a good reason to replace the clutch. The only other reason I can see for not re-using a set with such low miles is to prevent a warranty claim - usually you'd replace the clutch anytime the transmission is off unless it's fairly new; with only 17k on it, it should be barely broken in as long as you haven't abused it. The sticker and paint aren't indicative of a reman - they may indicate a generic part though. Usually you'd see some kind of branding on the disc, I think? I'm also a little surprised neither of the shops did the rear main seal - I know it's low mileage, but at 13 years old, I would think it's leaking at least a little by now. It adds all of about 10 minutes unless it's a captive seal. Motronic can likely chime in on that, pretty sure he was flipping a nearly identical truck a couple of years ago. some texas redneck fucked around with this message at Mar 7, 2013 around 06:39 |
| # ? Mar 7, 2013 06:35 |
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some texas redneck posted:
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 12:04 |
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Sounds like the new guy replaced the clutch for no reason. I think you just needed to put some fluid in your clutch hydraulics.
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 14:18 |
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Yeah, unless some fluid contaminated the clutch, it looks fine. Your clutch wasn't disengaging, but the clutch and pressure plate weren't the problem. Either the slave cylinder failed, or you needed more fluid. I don't think it's reasonable to think that the first shop owes you any money back.
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 14:36 |
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Elephanthead posted:Sounds like the new guy replaced the clutch for no reason. I think you just needed to put some fluid in your clutch hydraulics. Agreed. Looks to me like the second shop sold you a bunch of crap you didn't need when all you needed was maybe a new master or slave cylinder.
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 14:44 |
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Alright, thanks guys. I'm willing to let it go. I'll take from this that unless the repair is totally insurmountable, I will still come out ahead if I try to do it myself. For the cost of one clutch repair I could have bought the clutch components, a transmission jack and a couple cases of beer, and still taken up to two weeks off of work to get it done. I was too scared to do it myself, but this has taught me that going to a mechanic is no guarantee. At the end of the day, if I have to pay this much to learn a lesson, I'd rather the lesson be about my ability to turn a wrench. I'm still frustrated that I spent so much, I feel extremely foolish. I just hope you guys will be able to guide me in the right direction 17k more miles down the line when I'm under the truck myself. Thanks again for your advice. Maybe you can take some kind of happiness from the fact that you've spared a stressed out mechanic from having to deal with an unreasonable rear end in a top hat demanding a refund to which he's not entitled.
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 14:57 |
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some texas redneck posted:It adds all of about 10 minutes unless it's a captive seal. Motronic can likely chime in on that, pretty sure he was flipping a nearly identical truck a couple of years ago. You're right....out and in 10 minutes or less....just a simple press fit. I did my standard drywall screw into the old one, pull it out with vise grips and then it's just a matter of lubing and pushing the new one in place. I just can't imagine being in there and skipping replacement of a $4.50 part that has the potential to require pulling the trans out again.
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 15:27 |
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For the sake of things, I tried to take a few pictures of the heat fractures. It was hard as hell to do, my crappy point and shoot kept trying to focus on its reflection. They're not great, but I think they'll suffice to illustrate the difference between the heat fractures and the lines left from machining. I could only get halfway decent pictures of the fractures where the plate had black spots, but they're like that all the way around.    Is damage like this after ~17k miles any cause for concern? I get that the part is going to be worn, but I have no frame of reference for what is considered normal wear. I also have the slave cylinder, if there is any way to visually determine if there is a problem with that. I have no idea what an undamaged one looks like, and therefore don't know what, if anything, I ought to photograph. At this point I'm just trying to learn about what could have happened, what could have caused it and what I can do to prevent it in the future. Is there any way to check the rear main seal without taking everything apart?
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| # ? Mar 7, 2013 23:42 |
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Stalizard posted:
It wont leak fluid when under pressure and it will move when under appropriate pressure. Not much you can do to test that unless you have some apre hydraulica around. Of tell if it's bad visually if it's hilariously bad (like seals blown out).
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 00:49 |
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 I take back what I said about the pressure plate. That thing be hosed.
some texas redneck fucked around with this message at Mar 8, 2013 around 01:03 |
| # ? Mar 8, 2013 00:55 |
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Stalizard posted:For the sake of things, I tried to take a few pictures of the heat fractures. It was hard as hell to do, my crappy point and shoot kept trying to focus on its reflection. They're not great, but I think they'll suffice to illustrate the difference between the heat fractures and the lines left from machining. I could only get halfway decent pictures of the fractures where the plate had black spots, but they're like that all the way around. That...pressure plate looks wrong. It looks like its suffered some heat damage.
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 00:57 |
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That pressure plate has around 17 thousand miles on it, it's been in the truck for 16 months. Given that it's actually apparently pretty badly damaged, do you think I have any right to some money back from the man who installed it originally? Does it look like it could have been a remanufactured part? I'm sorry I couldn't get these pictures when I posted the OP, but seriously I'm a pretty bad photographer. It took me a good twenty minutes of playing around with settings to get even that much.
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 02:14 |
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Stalizard posted:That pressure plate has around 17 thousand miles on it, it's been in the truck for 16 months. Given that it's actually apparently pretty badly damaged, do you think I have any right to some money back from the man who installed it originally? Does it look like it could have been a remanufactured part? It could quite easy be said that you can't drive. It really looks glazed to hell. Did you loan your truck out to anyone that has an issue with a manual?
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 02:18 |
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I drove that same drivetrain in my hombre for a long rear end time - I did the clutch at 190000, and at last check the reman clutch I put in it is still fine with the guy who has the truck now, and it's done 75000 on it. Those trucks don't make anything like enough power to damage the clutch, and I would never have worn mine out if I didn't load it down to the bump stops and offroad all the time.
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 02:30 |
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InterceptorV8 posted:It could quite easy be said that you can't drive. It really looks glazed to hell. Did you loan your truck out to anyone that has an issue with a manual? I didn't loan it out to anybody, one of the things I like about driving a stick is that nobody ever asks to borrow it. I wouldn't let them if they did. I dig that it could be asserted that I can't drive. It probably doesn't mean much, but the '97 Carolla I learned on eight years ago is still going strong. I don't do anything dumb with it, I don't think the truck would even have enough power to spin the back wheels. Is there any way to prove or otherwise demonstrate that I'm a competent driver? Perhaps more to the point, what common mistakes do people make driving a manual that would cause this much damage over this short a period of time? Would it make a difference, like Wiggles said, if the truck has a terrible weak engine?
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 03:28 |
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Stalizard posted:Perhaps more to the point, what common mistakes do people make driving a manual that would cause this much damage over this short a period of time? Would it make a difference, like Wiggles said, if the truck has a terrible weak engine?
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 04:06 |
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adorai posted:They ride the clutch, use it as a brake on hills, excessively slip it to start in 2nd, etc.. Those are all things that my dad taught me not to do when I was learning. I won't say I'm perfect at always avoiding them, but those are all things that I make a conscious effort not to do when I get behind the wheel. Even if there's no way to prove it, I at least have the confidence that I didn't ruin this thing through bad driving practices. Thank you.
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 04:28 |
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You are not going to get any money back. You might as well fantasize about 14 inch grandpa paying you a visit instead.
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 20:43 |
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I think the second mechanic screwed up and replaced the whole clutch when all he needed to do was replace the master cylinder or the slave cylinder. I wouldn't go back to him. Even if that clutch is worn more than normal and the pressure plate has stress cracks, that's doesn't explain why it wouldn't disengage.
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| # ? Mar 8, 2013 22:47 |
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Does that model have a internal slave cylinder? If it doesn't I don't see why the second mechanic even dropped the tranny. If it was lurch but not come out of gear the clutch was obviously gripping the hydraulic system just wasn't releasing it.
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| # ? Mar 11, 2013 00:41 |
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Dake Darkstalker posted:Does that model have a internal slave cylinder? If it doesn't I don't see why the second mechanic even dropped the tranny. If it was lurch but not come out of gear the clutch was obviously gripping the hydraulic system just wasn't releasing it. Yes, it's an internal slave. And at that point I'm not sure it makes sense to do anything less than shotgun everything in there.
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| # ? Mar 11, 2013 01:24 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 12:17 |
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aventari posted:I think the second mechanic screwed up and replaced the whole clutch when all he needed to do was replace the master cylinder or the slave cylinder. I was going to agree with this, but apparently it's an internal slave so the tranny has to be dropped either way, and I suppose you might as well replace everything in there if there's any question that it's no good. OP learn how to fix poo poo yourself, a manual S10 is the most basic vehicle there is, and probably a relatively easy clutch job. leica fucked around with this message at Mar 11, 2013 around 02:15 |
| # ? Mar 11, 2013 02:09 |
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