We all love guns. But which guns do we buy? Not everyone has two dozen people who has made it their personal mission to yell at you and tell you specifically what gun I should buy (example: "HEY INSANE TOTORO BUY A JAPANESE TYPE 26). We have a ton of megathreads and general info threads but no specific thread about "which gun is gooder." Thus I was inspired to start a thread just for people to post their specific personal opinions on a specific model of firearm. We're often accused of having a "groupthink" on which guns to buy and but I think we have a decent variety of opinions and beliefs.
No this does not mean everyone go post a review on a Glock 17. Try to focus on guns that are a little less off the beaten path but are good for people looking to expand their collection beyond "Ruger Mk III and a G19."
Disclaimer: This is for entertainment purposes, do not take anything here as gospel, yada yada. The opinions posted here are the opinions of the gun's owner and not necessarily anyone else's.
Here is a template for a review. Also make sure to include a picture or two!
THIS IS NOT A PLACE TO ARGUE ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE'S OPINION. If you feel that strongly that someone has a bad opinion, post your own review! If you think my shotgun is awful, tell us why in your own review!
(BASED ON FEEDBACK, YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO INCLUDE A NUMERICAL GRADE FOR YOUR GUN)
Insane Totoro fucked around with this message at Apr 1, 2013 around 12:37
|# ? Mar 20, 2013 14:22|
|# ? May 19, 2013 13:08|
Mossberg 930 All Purpose
Type: Shotgun, sporting
Caliber: 12 gauge, 3"
Weight: ~8 pounds loaded
Barrel Length: 26" ported, with vent rib
Availability: Local gun shop special order, sometimes on Budsgunshop.com
Your Review: Let's say that this shotgun is that perfect medium price range between a cheap used semiauto shotgun and a far more expensive semiauto or O/U. Very practical, reliable, and looks good to boot. The Mossberg removable chokes are a nice addition that make it far more versatile than older shotguns with fixed chokes.
Reliability: This shotgun refuses to choke on any ammo that I feed it. Whatever crap bulk ammo you get from Walmart is going to cycle in this gun. I have out maybe 2000 shells through this gun. However the only caveat is that I would recommend cleaning around 250 rounds, specifically in the gas ring. If the gas ring isn't cleaned properly the gas system will fail and your shotgun won't load the next shell from the tube. Also I would not consider loading only the tube and not the chamber. Sometimes the gun will fail to feed from an empty chamber. But overall what a winner in terms of busting clays reliably.
Accuracy: I recently shot a 77/100 on our local sporting clays course with this gun. It has removable chokes and you can get whatever choke you want with this gun. Standard bead sight on this gun.
Fit/Finish: Very impressive. The blued barrel looks nice and the walnut stock is really classy. It gets a real close look from people and the aesthetics of the wood remind people of older shotguns that have a far more impressive pedigree. This is a modern reliable semiauto that looks like
Ergos/Comfort: The stock isn't adjustable but the pad on the stock is really comfy. The safety is in that nice Mossberg-standard position right where your thumb would sit on the stock. It's really a soft shooting gun like all semiauto shotguns.
Usage: I use it for sporting clays. I rig up a shell catcher for trap. But put it this way I would struggle to shoot better at any of those clay games with a far more expensive shotgun. People hunt with this gun so I imagine it holds up to bird shooting just fine.
Aftermarket: Mossberg makes a ton of barrels, chokes, etc. for this gun. It is one of their leading products. The barrels aren't cheap though. But you can find them all pretty easily.
Resale Value: Hard to tell since you don't see them used locally that often. Looks like $500-ish on Gunbroker.
Insane Totoro fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2013 around 16:40
|# ? Mar 20, 2013 14:38|
Colt 1991 (Series 80)
colt4 by right_arm, on Flickr
Type: "retro" 1911
Caliber: .45 ACP
Weight: ~36oz unloaded
Length: 9.5" muzzle to heel
Barrel Length: 5"
Stock: some colt medallion grips I picked up, comes with rosewood though
Availability: gunbroker was where I got mine, you can usually find them in local shops too
Pricing: got mine for $825 iirc
MSRP: ~$900 I think for the newer models without the lovely rollmarks
SKU: 01991 says colt
Review: this is a very good pistol. if you're not a fan of the parked retro 1911s out there, springfield mil spec, remington r1 (barf), ria (gross), then this is pretty much your only option for a somewhat cheap, blued 1911. the bluing definitely isn't as nice as the older series 70s and gold cups, but it is just as nice as the bluing colt puts on their series 70 pistols now.
Reliability: I have had zero reliability issues with it, hell, it even survived a squib from my dumb rear end. I routinely feed my 1911 pretty underloaded .45 ACP that I reload, and I haven't had any problems with it, no jams or anything of that matter. If I recall correctly, I've got around 3500 rounds through this gun. Only a couple issues, but those were with me testing out some weenie .45 ACP that I reloaded, so I wouldn't blame the gun.
Accuracy: great, I shoot this just as well as my brother's s&w e series 1911, and that costs a fair amount more. bushing to barrel fit feels tight, but not as tight as some match 1911s I've played with.
Fit/Finish: really good, all the parts fit together very nicely. fit was just as nice as my kimber I sold to fund this pistol. finish is great too, below is a picture of the rollmark and horrible bead blasted finish the 1991s used to come with:
terrible right? well colt doesn't do that anymore, they have a gorgeous rollmark on the left side of the gun, and chose to leave off the ugly -series 80- rollmark on the right side below the ejection port. it makes for a very clean, pretty gun.
Ergos/Comfort: it's a 1911, you'll love it. that being said, this is a traditional 1911 with no beavertail, extended safety, or any checkering to be found. so yes you can get hammer bite if you can't hold it correctly, but it isn't that hard if you don't have fat goony goon hands.
Usage: range trips mostly, I don't have a CHL at the moment, but even if I did I'd probably carry my BHP instead or my G17
Aftermarket: it's a 1911, there's plenty of aftermarket for it. I did a couple of upgrades on mine since it came with some plastic parts that I wasn't a fan of. I fit a steel mainspring housing with a lanyard loop to it, and I also installed a new trigger that matches the blued finish much better than the original one ever did. also threw some new colt medallion grips, deleted the series 80 safety to clean up the trigger, and tuned the trigger to give it a trigger pull of ~3lbs.
Resale Value: gunbroker says like ~$650 for the older 1991s with the horrible rollmark, so tack on an extra $50-100 I guess depending on finish?
Rating (out of 10): 8/10 (without my modifications) 9/10 (with my various additions)
e: added round count to reliability section
right arm fucked around with this message at Mar 25, 2013 around 20:58
|# ? Mar 20, 2013 19:33|
Type: USGI milsurp carbine
Caliber: .30 Carbine
Capacity: 15 and 30 round mags were standard issue, however a variety of aftermarket mags are available
Weight: 5.8 lbs loaded
Barrel Length: 18"
Stock: Walnut was USGI standard; however a lot of the ones that came back from Europe are sporting some kind of replacement stock, usually beech
Availability: Unfortunately the CMP is out, however they are still generally easily available on gunbroker, although pricing may or may not be reasonable, which leads me to...
Pricing: it's milsurp. Pricing is highly contingent on condition, any special features, as well as whatever insanity the market may or may not be doing at this time. That said for a relatively vanilla model (late arsenal refurb features like adjustable sights and bayonet lug along with a common manufacturer like Inland) in relatively good condition (think CMP "service grade"), you're looking at somewhere in the $700-800 range (last time I checked, I haven't really priced them out in depth recently, so anyone feel free to correct me).
SKU: What the hell is the new fangled idea?
Your Review: If you are a shooter and not really interested in the history nerd/collector side of milsurp but still want a historical gun, this is the gun for you. It's a rare range trip that one of my Carbines doesn't come with me because it is just incredibly fun to shoot. Low recoiling, easy to point/handle, it is just a great gun. Plus it is USGI so if you're 'Murican it's all sorts of . Someone (I think it was Cyrano) said a while back that if you don't look too closely the pictures of Marines wading ashore at Iwo Jima or wherever with Carbines almost look like they have 10/22s. That's about the best way to describe the gun.
Reliability: It's milsurp, but getting that caveat out of the way they are generally pretty reliable. Provided it is in good functioning mechanical condition and doesn't have some weird one off unique issue, most reliability issues can be fixed with new springs; Wolff springs are good and cheap. Wolf makes steel cased .30 Carbine and I have not heard of anyone having serious issues with it (besides maybe wearing out your extractor a little quicker but that's a cheap non-numbered part; also maybe the occasional FTE).
Accuracy: Again, it's milsurp but as long as it is in good mechanical condition (i.e. the bore isn't completely shot out/crown isn't completely destroyed/etc) it will shoot respectably. It's a service rifle that was originally intended for second line troops to use as a close-in/medium range self defense weapon so we're not talking sub-MOA accuracy here but it'll shoot minute of pop bottle at 50 yards all day long.
Fit/Finish: Milsurp, but the USGI park is generally pretty durable.
Ergos/Comfort: As stated above, very low recoiling gun that handles well. Honestly recoil is quite comparable to your average AR in 5.56. No pistol grip, but other than that it's just a very handy gun.
Usage: It's milsurp so range use obviously, although historically they have been used for ranch guns as well as being used by PDs as long guns well into the '70s. Other groups have also utilized them:
If you have replaced the springs/ensured it's reliable (to include reliability with JHPs...some Carbines run some JHP designs fine, a lot of others don't, you'll just have to try them in your gun) and are willing to accept the inherent limitations of the 1940s design (no pistol grip, no easy way to mount a light, no night sights, limited ability to mount optics) it would make a rather handy home defense carbine.
Aftermarket: There's some stuff out there for it, the two biggest things that come to mind are "tactical" stocks and railed handguards. Any type of stock other than wood is dumb, imho, but a railed handguard and a cheap red dot would be loads of fun if that's your bag.
Resale Value: It's USGI milsurp that the CMP has stopped selling, so barring the discovery of a million in pristine condition in Korea or something (i.e. something that will never happen) there won't be any more coming home from overseas in any sizable numbers. So take care of it and at the very least you're all but guaranteed to at least get your money out of it if you decide to sell.
Rating (out of 10): Looking at it objectively as just "a gun," comparing it to something like a modern AR, probably 6 or 7 out of 10. Looking at it for what it is, however, taking into account the historical nature and not dinging it for lacking modern features, 10/10, A++++ would buy again (and I did, because I've got two!)
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 07:23|
Glock 20 Gen 3 10mm pistol
Type: Pistol, Semi-automatic
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Capacity: 15+1 / 10+1 also available
Weight: 27.69 oz unloaded / 39.14 oz loaded
Length: 8.22 in
Barrel Length: 4.60 in
Stock: Polymer frame
Pricing: $630.00 US, $ 530.00 US for first responders, GSSF members
Built upon the same frame as the Glock 21 45acp, and chambered the round the FBI 'couldn't handle' the G20 is a monster. Grasping the pistol, the Gen 3 feels as if it was a custom fit.(I have large hands)
The Glock 20 reliability feeds, eats, and fires everything that I have put through it; from Blazer aluminum to Hornady Critical Defense. Cases reliably eject up and to the right. In the seven years I've owned this, I've fired approximately 2000 rounds through it with no problems.
Stock, its accurate out to 25 yards (indoor range).
Typical for the Glock series of pistols. Dark colored polymer lower frame, which has a gap and flexes near the muzzle upon firing, and the slide is finished as a typical Glock.
The gen 3 front strap has finger groves molded into the frame, however because this is used a a target pistol, I've added a set of Houge grips to assist other shooters. The rear strap is also fixed grooved, allowing for positive retention and control.
Currently used for target shooting, however I have carried this as my primary sidearm with admin approval.
Same aftermarket as other Glock pistols. Night sights, grip plugs, springs, op rods, slide stops, magazine releases, magazines, floor plates, tactical lights, and holsters. Currently I have a Streamlight TLR-1, a fore mentioned grips, and night-sights on mine.
Gun shops will attempt to screw you and low ball. If selling, gunbroker/armslist, or FTF.
Rating (out of 10):
The pistol itself 9.5/10, ammo costs etc brings this down to 8/10.
baupdeth fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2013 around 01:41
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 10:54|
Type: Rifle, bolt
Capacity: 5rd internal magazine
Length: 46 3/4"
Barrel Length: 27"
Availability: Moderately uncommon, major sources drying up
MSRP: five Russian scalps (15.7 in modern currency)
Your Review: Mosins don't all suck. Fix the awful rotten barrels, sticky bolts, 500lb triggers, and active-warzone quality control and you've got a very solid (if still fuckin' heavy) fullsize battle rifle that can serve as an accurate, enjoyable shooter with high-quality ammo, or get loaded up with $.18/rd Bulgarian surplus from some warehouse straight outta STALKER and used to blast away like an idiot like you'd never think of doing with any other .30 rifle cartridge. While they still obviously hail from an era before television and access to running water had made men soft, weak, and prone to complaints about anything lacking 90% rail coverage, the Finn Mosins are about the only gun still used in the modern day that can still bear their pre-1900 Imperial manufacture stamps; their solid shooting qualities combined with their unique (and ultraviolent) history and low cost make them a good entrypoint into military surplus.
Reliability: Perfect, unless using some especially lovely $.18/rd Bulgarian surplus. I've put somewhere in the low thousands of rounds through mine, and the only failures I've had involved bad primers.
Accuracy: Tend to average around 1-1.5MOA. Use Prvi Partizan or Czech light ball.
Fit/Finish: Assiduously maintained, routinely oiled bluing, or else rust
Ergos/Comfort: Fuckin' heavy. Hold it too long and you'll lose feeling in your right hand; on the other hand it make the recoil pretty light. Learning the care and feeding of a mag-fed rimmed cartridge can take a little getting used to.
Usage: Target shooting/plinking/collecting/emergency hunting whitetail or Soviets
Aftermarket: You can get a Darrell's nondestructive scout mount, a bayonet that costs more than the gun, stripper clips (the brass ones, not steel), and slings in your choice of brown or slightly darker brown
Resale Value: "Used" has no meaning in milsurp. Mine's worth about double what I originally paid for it now.
Rating (out of 10): Fuckin' heavy
Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at Mar 25, 2013 around 17:31
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 12:26|
Type: Shotgun, semiauto
Capacity: 7rd factory, 5, 10, 20rd mags available
Barrel Length: 22"
Availability: New production, regular imports, high demand
Pricing: $650-$1500, depending what mood the Wolverines are in that day
Your Review: It's a giant goofy AK that shoots shotgun shells, why don't you own this, what is the matter with you. Put confetti loads in that thing, now it's a party at your range and fire is invited. Take it upland bird hunting because gently caress quail. Dress it up like something from a 2000AD comic and wage blockwar on the cat. Bolt one to another with linked triggers on your truckbed pintle mount. Show it to Diane Feinstein and watch her chew both legs off trying to escape. Explode all the tannerite-packed pumpkins, forever.
Some assembly required because it comes with a boring and terrible import-friendly fuddstock and trigger assembly, but with a replacement stock, grip and trigger group the conversion process is maybe ten minutes. Or you can by it preconverted by a stateside dealer but will be charged a smillion dollars for the convenience and won't be able to pick a Hello Kitty themed stock, your call.
Reliability: Between the wide disparity in power between different 12ga loads, drunk Russian manufacturers sometimes forgetting to drill all the holes they should, and some American mag manufacturers being less competent than even the drunkest of Russians... yeah, it'll misfeed or fail to eject sometimes. Get good mags and pay attention to your gas settings, and you can essentially eliminate the problem. It'll still cycle OK if you accidentally cut half the gas block off with an angle grinder and build up a new one out of welding puddle.
Accuracy: less MOA, more 'thataway'. I do kinda own at trap w/it when they let me shoot
Fit/Finish: crude/paint. If postapocalyptic nomadic raiders existed, this is the gun they'd make out of old cars.
Ergos/Comfort: oh who're we kidding you're going to throw out that crappy old stock and replace it with AK parts anyway, so: like an AK but fatter. Which is to say horrible.
Usage: BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM
Aftermarket: Most stuff that goes on the backend of an AK plus a whole range of exciting new stuff that goes on its front end. Six-pronged retracting bayonets, drum mags with big holes to let the dirt in.
Resale Value: Buy at $450, sell at $1500. Buy at $1500, watch the Vepr undercut the market, sell at $450.
Rating (out of 10): BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM
Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at Mar 21, 2013 around 13:19
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 13:09|
Type: Semi-auto intermediate cartridge carbine
Capacity: Comes with 30 and 20 round magazines, lower capacity ones are available for purchase if you google around
Weight: 7lbs without a magazine
Length: 36" with the stock fixed, 26" folded
Barrel Length: 16"
Availability: Domestically manufactured, ongoing production. Currently hard to find due to the panic, but normally as available as any other EBR
MSRP: $1599, but seriously, who pays MSRP?
The 551-A1 is essentially a domestically manufactured clone of the 551 that is in use by the Swiss military. It's manufactured by SIG USA, although it does use a number of components that were produced by Sig Arms in Switzerland. The major places that it differs from the older SIG 556 - a domestically produced kinda-55x line rifle that had major changes made to the lower to accept American accessories - is that they got rid of the STANAG mag well and attachment provisions for AR-15 stocks. As a result the aftermarket is much smaller and the user is reliant on much more expensive magazines, but I feel the ergonomics are much helped in the long run.
Reliability: Excellent. I have about 2500 rounds through mine at this point and only had 5 malfunctions, all with the same magazine and on the same day. I lubricated that mag a bit internally and haven't had any problems with it since then. It has functioned flawlessly with every type of ammo that I have thrown at it.
Accuracy: This is one area that seems to be the most controversial with the US-made 55x rifles, mostly due to the cult of fan-worship surrounding the original Swiss models. Viewed from afar, with pitifully few examples in the US for people to shoot, they developed a mystique as the "perfect assault rifle," a gun that was durable and reliable like a good AK but had the accuracy of a good match rifle. Put simply, my impression is that the American SIG 55x series rifles are as accurate as a quality M4 clone. Shooting off a sandbag on a bench with a 4x Millet scope in a LaRue mount and using 55gn Federal Bulk I was getting 50 yard 5 shot groups groups that were averaging about an inch. Using the same iron sights that I just got done bitching about above I was having absolutely zero problem putting shot after shot into a Duraseal spinning gopher target at the same range.
Note that this is roughly the same accuracy that I get out of my WOA AR target upper. I'm not saying this to emphasize the accuracy of the SIG - I fully believe that the WOA upper is mechanically more accurate than the SIG - but to point out that an inch at 50 (or about 2 at 100 in my experience) is probably getting towards the upper limits of my own abilities with a rifle. I'm a good shot, but not a great one, and I loving know the WOA out shoots me. Given that I'm shooting about the same with the SIG I could easily be the limiting factor there as well. Regardless, if you are really curious as to how accurate these guns are there are American Rifleman reviews out there (plus a few others I think) where they report 5 shot groups with various types of ammo.
All in all, I'm happy with the accuracy. I honestly don't know if it would shoot like a Swiss Arms 551 if you put them both in vices and fed them similar quality ammo, but it certainly shoots comparably to nicer ARs that I've been able to get trigger time with, and that's their major competition in the American market.
Trigger - here is one of the hugely controversial bits that people really piss on SIG about. First off, just let me say that actual Swiss Arms 55x triggers are really nice, something that they have a well deserved reputation for. I've been lucky enough to shoot them a few times in Switzerland, both at formal target ranges (I even won a little shooting medal!) and at more informal indoor range "goon shoot" type events. The first stage takes up nice and evenly and then the second stage breaks really crisply. Back when the 556 came out I was all in all unimpressed with the trigger. It was good when compared to, say, your average stock AR trigger, but when it was being marketed as a US version of a gun with such a famously good trigger it really came up short.
The 551A1's trigger, out of the box, left me a little disappointed. It was nice, and certainly nicer than the 556's trigger, but it just felt too stiff and a bit mushy in the second stage. Then I realized the fucker was adjustable. A few minutes of monkeying around and taking the grip off and dicking with a set screw and I had a good, positive first stage that stopped right before a short and very crisp second stage. At this point I really see no need to replace this with swiss made trigger internals. Next time I go out to Switzerland I'm going to have to get some SERIOUS trigger time on this gun right before I go out and then hit a range to get some trigger time on a 550/1 so I can definitively say whether or not the swiss triggers are nicer. Right now I'm leaning towards them being a little nicer, but really I don't know if I might also be remembering them a bit nicer than they were - it's been almost six months now since I last shot one.
Finish: This is one of those things where it's kind of a downside, kind of an upside, and at the end of the day just is what it is. First off, the color is pretty much right and the texture feels right as well. I have no goddamned clue if it's exactly what the Swiss use, but it certainly looks and feels close enough. On the other hand, it likes to chip around the ejection port. This isn't a minor little thing, either, the brass getting kicked back really gouges the gently caress out of it, to the point where I'm down to bare metal in a couple of spots after about 150 rounds - this isn't just the brass smear that you get on the shell deflector of an AR. That said, that's just kind of a "SIG thing." Every 55x series rifle does that, although I don't know whether that rate of wear is normal on the Swiss guns. Me? I noticed it around the 150 round mark on my gun and, since I'm a pretty princess who worries about my fashion accessories, I went ahead and put a quarter-inch wide strip of duct tape over the problem area. Problem solved, no more finish wear. Really, it's just kind of an issue with SIG rifles in general that's pretty well-known. Am I thrilled about it? No, but I knew it was a thing going into this.
Front handguards - Frankly they are kind of chinzy. They certainly look better than most of the other front handguards that SIG has attached to this line of rifle, and they're functional enough, but they rattle around a bit, while the actual Swiss ones for their 551 rifles do not. They also seem all-in-all rather thin. After firing a couple of mags through quickly I was noticing them heat up a bit. Nothing uncomfortable, mind you, but they were certainly warm to the touch. If I had been wearing gloves I probably wouldn't have even noticed, but it was a bit disconcerting to say the least. Do you straight up HAVE to replace the handguards? No, but I did. That said, they're good enough that I had absolutely no problem sticking with the OEM ones for a few months while I set aside some cash to get new ones.
The Stock - remember how much everyone loving hated the stock on the 556 and wondered what the christ SIG was smoking? Remember how excited everyone was about the 556 classic, then pissed right after at the flimsy stock and the weak lockup? Yeah. The stock on the 551A1 is the stock on the 551. It locks up solid as a rock, has a nice LOP, and all in all is pretty loving awesome. If you never got what all the 55x fanboys were bitching about with the 556 and the 556C stocks, you won't care about this. If you were one of the guys doing the bitching, you should be pretty loving ecstatic about this. Note: this may no longer be true on the newest models - there are reports that SIG USA, never one to miss an opportunity to screw the pooch, started having lower quality knock-offs produced in the US. Whether or not you have a Swiss stock can be determined by looking at the manufacturer stamps on the inside surface of the folding hinge area of the stock.
The over-all quality of construction and the fit and finish of the internal parts is excellent.
This could be a whole "good vs bad" writeup in and of itself. On one hand, I'm happy that SIG actually included a swiss-style rotating drum rear sight on this model, as opposed to their past choices of "lovely red dot" or "what, you wanted sights on your $1500 gun?" That said, if they didn't they would have been pilloried online by the 55x enthusiasts who screamed for exactly this model for so long. I'll be honest, these rear sights REALLY don't impress me. The adjustments feel a bit mushy and the drum itself rotates WAY too easily. Sitting on a bench at the range it's not going to move by itself, but there's no way I would use it for something like 3 gun, much less anything more serious than that. Just having it brush against my jacket at the range and random bags and crap at the house I've had it half-rotate to another aperture. It really does feel like something I'd expect to find on an airsoft rifle, and I can't loving believe that SIG charges about $120 for them. On the other hand, they are basically functional as sights and they managed to work well enough for me at the range that I was spinning a rubber gopher pretty much non stop with them.
The really unforgivable thing, in my book at least, is the fact that when they designed this drum they managed to make it significantly higher than the original Swiss drum. This necessitated a higher front sight post, and at the same time they made some minor cosmetic changes that leave the front sight slightly different looking than the Swiss originals. The real pain in the rear end, though, has to do with the fact that they got the folding stock right - the Swiss stock comb sit noticeably lower than the AR stock for which the 556 front sight and the diopter were originally designed around, which means that with the Swiss stock you aren't getting the nice, tight cheek weld that you really want to have, and instead have kind of a "jaw weld." It's not terrible, and you can certainly shoot with it and do so well, but it's really sub-optimal. You can get a cheek riser for the folding stock that I'm pretty sure would put it at the perfect height for the sights that shipped, but that's $250 in the US for a real one. Note that there is a Chinese-made reproduction of this that is intended for airsoft guns and costs $25. From what I've read online those are actually half decent quality and will actually work for the job.
At the end of the day the sights are good enough for loving around at the range, but they're way up there on my "to replace" list. Happily the front sight block is identical to the Swiss one in all the key dimensions, so Swiss front sights can be swapped in with basic hand tools.
Ergos/Comfort: This is one area where the 551-A1 really shines over the 556, at least in my book. First of all, full disclaimer: I have small hands. What holds true for me with ergos may not hold true for everyone else, especially when it comes to me finding controls uncomfortably difficult to reach. That said, my experience with the 556 was always hurt a bit by the compromises they had to make to fit the STANAG mag well into a design that it was never intended for. The SIG 55x line of rifles was built around a rock-and-lock type magazine and has a longer bolt travel distance inside the receiver than the AR-15 does. This results in an over-all slightly longer action and necessitates putting the magazine well a bit forward from the pistol grip, compared to an AR. The result of this is that, on the 556, the magazine release sits uncomfortably far forward. The 551-A1, in returning to the rock-and-lock magazine and paddle-style release of the Swiss 55x family, doesn't have this issue at all. The magazine changes feel like a well built AK. While a shooter more used to drop-free mags and the push-button AR-style manual of arms will need some time to adjust, at the end of the day it's simply a different system and perfectly capable of quick mag swaps.
Over all comfort is very good. The gun shoulders nicely, swings well, and is well balanced. While there were some complaints of the 556 being front heavy, I feel most of those were due to the absolutely atrocious and comically heavy handguards that shipped with that gun. The 551-A1, even with OEM handguards, is noticeably lighter on its feet than the 556, and if you opt to replace those with Swiss handguards it becomes a very handy little carbine.
Usage: Shooting targets or other things that need to be shot. Not overly picky with ammo or maintenance heavy, it is also accurate enough for semi-precision shooting. I don't think anyone will be using it as a serious combat rifle any time soon, but it would work equally well for making groups at the range or as a truck gun or small to medium game field rifle.
Aftermarket: No, it's not an AR-15. No, it does not take most of the popular AR-15 aftermarket parts. If you want those buy an AR-15. There are a number of replacement parts that you can buy imported from Switzerland and almost all of the various parts for Swiss 55x rifles will fit. These can be expensive, but c'est la vie. There is also a growing cottage industry surrounding the small scale manufacture of accessories for it in the US. Aftermarket sights and aftermarket triggers are two of the big things being worked on and produced, although there are also a number of dress-up parts to make it look more identical to the Swiss 551. Between expensive Swiss gear and the growing domestic market you won't have much of a problem spending money on this thing.
Resale Value: Good. People want these, and they're not super-common. I won't claim that you will get all of your money out of it if you re-sell it, but you sure won't loose too much of it either.
Rating (out of 10): 8.5
The bottom line
Out of the box it's a really good gun. If you've been wanting a gun that's available in the US and is basically a clone of the 550/1 family, you will be happy with it. Myself, I'm really goddamned happy I bought it, and I am equally happy with how well it shoots. The cheap feeling rear sight is disappointing, and the seeming mis-match between the height of the stock comb and the sight plane is annoying as hell, but this is something that is fixable with actual Swiss sights or a riser. With a few replacement parts it has to potential to be a really excellent gun.
I'm really glad I got it, and I'm really happy with mine. It is easily the most shot gun I own, by probably a factor of 10 over the nearest competition, and my favorite gun, bar none. It comes with me on every range trip. It isn't perfect, but it sure as hell was worth what i put into getting it and getting a few replacement parts for it.
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 15:31|
Could I make a request that people when reviewing their personal firearms and discussing reliability/durability also include an estimated round count in there, too? "Feeds everything I put in it" doesn't mean much if you've only shot like 3 boxes of ammo through the gun. Thanks.
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 16:00|
Makes sense. I amended my review.
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 16:16|
Smith & Wesson 442-2 Airweight, no lock
You thought I was going to write about a glock, didn't you?
Type: Handgun - Revolver
Caliber: .38 Special +P
Capacity: 5 rounds
Weight: 15 oz empty
Barrel Length: 1 7/8 "
Stock: Comes with rubber boot grips from the factory. Pictured are aftermarket rosewood Altamont boot grips (top,~$42) and Altamont walnut combat grips (same price,bottom)
Availability: Reasonably common. Even more common if you are also cool with its stainless twin, the 642.
Pricing: I paid $289 for a very gingerly used one.
Reliability: 100%. It is a revolver, after all, so if there is a problem odds are good it will be a show stopper. I currently have an estimated 350 rounds of 158gr FMJ/LRN and 50 rounds of 135gr +P JHPs through it with not a hitch.
Accuracy: Mechanically it is infinitely more accurate than I will ever be by a wide margin. However, the VERY heavy factory trigger, coupled with the tiny sights and stout recoil, make it difficult to shoot accurately at speed. I have however successfully completed an IDPA match with it and placed respectably, even though the CoF was designed for a 6 shot revolver. I have replaced some of the springs with aftermarket ones in order to reduce the trigger pull to improve my ability to shoot it well. I also painted the front sight blade red in order to make it more visible in daylight.
Fit/Finish: Excellent. After ~6 months of regular carry the finish is holding up quite well. Lots of dry fire and live fire have not done much to induce end shake or side to side play in the cylinder.
Ergos/Comfort: This is highly user dependent. I will not lie, shooting +P out of this thing is a serious bitch. However, with practice and the right grips, the 158gr LRN factory ammo I have shot becomes reasonably manageable. I have by now let several new shooters shoot this gun on their first time out and with the right technique they are all reasonably happy with the gun and were able to shoot it quite well.
Usage: This is a concealed carry pistol. Make no mistake about it. That's what it's for. It is a terrible gun for basically anything else.
Aftermarket: Pretty broad. Unfortunately, because the sight blade is part of the barrel, you will need to have it machined to accept night sights if that is what you are looking for. Holsters and grips are very easy to get a hold of. I am very happy with my 2 pair of Altamont grips and would recommend them to anybody looking for an aftermarket set of stocks. Additionally, both Wilson Combat and Apex Tactical sell spring kits that I highly recommend you consider installing. The installation is a bit tricky but not impossible. The Apex kit takes the trigger down from an estimated ~14lb to ~8lb and makes it much, much smoother to boot.
Resale Value: Ehh reasonable. With the stock grips I think I could resell this gun for about what I paid for it, maybe a bit more.
Rating (out of 10): 8/10 overall. The gun is really a perfect low-profile concealed carry handgun. It is light, carries better than any of my Glocks (including the 26) and is actually quite shootable with practice. Its biggest flaws are the trigger and the lack of a front sight dovetail or insert of some kind to facilitate the installation of night sights. Both can be remedied, but the lack of good sights are something of a flaw. I will say that for how much they sell for, they are fantastically well made pistols. Some might say (even myself included) that you are better off with a higher capacity semi auto for concealed carry, but frankly I have never found a gun that carries so effortlessly. It is the only one of my pistols that I am happy to carry on my waist in the summer time with nothing but a fitted T shirt as cover. For that reason alone it demands serious consideration for anyone who is looking for a pistol for concealed carry. Additionally, this is the first gun that has made me seriously interested in buying and shooting revolvers competitively in the near future.
Kommienzuspadt fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2013 around 13:40
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 16:19|
Type: Nazi semi-automatic battle rifle
Caliber: . 8mm Mauser
Capacity: 10 rounds
Weight: 9.7 lbs, unloaded
Barrel Length: 21.5"
Stock: Almost always laminated beech, although very rarely you will find hardwood used late in the war.
Availability: Fairly uncommon, but not super-rare. Keep your eyes open and be willing to browse gunbroker
Pricing: $1500-$3500 depending on condition, manufacturer, whether the parts match, etc.
MSRP: 250 Reichsmarks
Your Review: If you're into milsurp, this is where you're officially putting aside the childhood toys of m91/30s, RC K98ks, putting on your big boy pants, and getting into serious collecting. It's a Nazi rifle, so do your homework about who produced what, when, how to recognize re-numbered parts, etc. If you have any intention of getting into these the book Hitler's Garands is a must-buy and will help you at least not buy the most awfully hosed up, sporterized, re-numbered guns out there. Yes it's a $80 book, but then you're also looking at buying a ~$2000 gun. They're unusual and never fail to draw a bit of a crowd at the range. They are also finicky fuckers that need to be babied if you're going to shoot them. That said, they're fun as hell and make a real nice contribution to a collection. If you're just starting to get into the more serious end of milsurp collecting they make a great centerpiece, and if you are a more advanced collector they fascinating enough from a mechanical and historical point of view to really demand a place in your safe.
Reliability: It's a 60 year old rifle made by in the last two years of an apocalyptic war while the factories and the logistical infrastructure were either under constant aerial bombardment or being overrun by the loving Red Army. Let's just set aside conventional norms of "reliability" for now. The design itself was consciously made extremely over-gassed. In 1944 this was useful as it resulted in extremely forceful ejection of spent rounds and virtually guaranteed function no matter how filthy or abused it was. For the collector, however, this is a bit of a problem because this over-gassing leads the guns to beat themselves to death. Eventually the bolt will slam back into the rear of the receiver enough that the receiver will bow outward, crack, and then you're hosed. Happily for all of us that like to shoot their guns, there are after market gas systems out there (sold by Apfeltor) that can be adjusted for a much gentler cycling of the action. Buy one of those and it is not only possible to shoot without battering it to death, but it becomes an absolute kitten with a very manageable recoil. All that said, once you get it running like it should they really don't have many problems with FTFs or FTEs.
It's also worth noting that the chamber isn't the thickest in the world and prone to splitting down the middle if you have a high-pressure event in there. This makes it very important that you use decent ammo and avoid known-hot loaded or inconsistently loaded milsurp. You particularly want to avoid 50s era Yugo 8mm with these. Me, I stick to commercial or soft hand-loads these days.
Accuracy: Again, 60+ year old rifle. That said, if it's in good shape they can be quite accurate. I've shot examples that were easily 2 MOA rifles. ALl in all expect the traditional "battle rifle accuracy" of 3-5 MOA, but be prepared to be pleasantly surprised, especially with good ammo.
Fit/Finish: YEEEEEEAH. . . . . let's just politely call it "charming." The Germans didn't have time for final finishing or polishing at this point in the war, and left most of the exterior surfaces untouched from the rough forgings.
This is considered a pretty nice example:
There are guns out there that were cosmetically finished, but they're much less common. Some people also had their guns polished and refinished after the war. Beware of these. Unless you really know what you're looking at, consider ugly good.
Ergos/Comfort: Surprisingly low recoiling for a full blown battle rifle once you get the gas system installed and tuned. The safety is OK by 1940s standards, and the magazine is pretty rock-and-lock standard.
Aftermarket: I dunno, are you into armbands?
Resale Value: Don't gently caress it up by doing something stupid and don't buy one for way more than it's worth and you'll be able to get your money back out. People always seem to want to buy these. That said, realize that it's a ~$2-3k rifle and you're probably not going to sell it overnight on the local armslist.
Rating (out of 10): I give it a 7/10. 8 as a shooter, -2 for being crazy milsurp, +2 for being a cool early autoloader, -1 for all the Nazi associated oddness, -1 for all the ~*~Special Snowflake~*~ poo poo you have to deal with, and +1 for all the Nazi associated oddness.
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 16:32|
m91/30 Mosin Nagant
Type: Soviet bolt action rifle
Caliber: . 7.62x54r
Capacity: 5 rounds
Weight: 8.8 lbs, unloaded
Length: 1.732 Arshin (48.5 inches)
Barrel Length: 39.9 inches
Stock: Some laminated, some hardwood.
Availability: Everywhere that cheap surplus is sold, the back of most goons' closets
MSRP: Retail is a decadent capitalist concept.
Your Review: It is what it is. Think you might like milsurp? Does the idea of owning something that was made in the depths of the worst war humanity ever fought, constructed by malnourished peasant laborers on worn-out Tsarist era tooling, under factory conditions that can be summed up as "OH gently caress FASCISTS!", probably saw use by numerous ill-prepared and very short lived conscripts, and which spent half a century packed in the foulest grease known to man appeal to you? Boy, do I have a gun for you.
Don't expect a loving sniper rifle. Don't use this to teach yourself the raw fundamentals of marksmanship. Trying to accurize one of these is like putting lipstick on a bulldog. But, assuming you own a 10/22, know how to not flinch when pulling a trigger, and can appreciate crappy old stuff for what it is, they're not terrible guns.
What they do REALLY well is provide a cheap platform to learn about cleaning up, taking care of, and generally preserving milsurp firearms. Every guy under 35 who has a giant collection of beautiful, valuable K43s, Lugers, K98ks, Garands, 1911s, etc. probably also has a junky Mosin kicking around the back of his safe that he learned the ropes on. There is no shame in this.
They can also be drat fun to shoot, as long as you understand that your targets should probably be reactive and large-ish. May I suggest expired watermelon and rotten cabbage?
Reliability: Does it have all the parts? It will probably shoot. Will it extract? Well, that is why you have that rubber mallet in your range bag, now isn't it?
Fit/Finish: These are the decadent trappings of end-stage bourgeoise capitalism.
Usage: , the Viet Cong, pretty much every lovely third world militia who ever bought crap from the USSR
Aftermarket:: Bayonets that look like they're from the Civil War, pleather stripper clip pouches, terrible canvas slings, mysterious metal bottles with moon-letters on them
Resale Value: About a carton of cigarettes
Rating (out of 10): As a gun: 5/10 As a learning aid for the aspiring milsurper: 9/10
Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at Mar 21, 2013 around 17:07
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 16:57|
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 17:02|
Cimarron No. 3 Schofield
Type: Handgun - Revolver
Caliber: .38 Special
Capacity: 6 rounds
Weight: 2.5 lbs
Barrel Length: 5"
Stock: Smooth, satin-finished walnut
Availability: Not very. Not stocked in a ton of stores, but is available direct from Cimarron.
Pricing: Paid $550 used, which was a great deal. Commonly seen for $700-800.
Aw yeah, it's a Schofield that you can own without shelling out thousands for an original. The Schofield was S&W's most famous competitor in the single action revolver field, designed for cavalry troops and offering something that other single action revolvers couldn't: a quick reload. Once the gun is empty, one must only half-cock the hammer, pull back on the latch, and push the barrel down. This causes the ejector star to push out from the cylinder and then sharply snap back, causing all empty (and unfired) shells to go flying in an intensely entertaining fashion. If I'm entirely truthful, I bought this gun in part just because reloading it looked so fun. Oh, and it can take a modern speedloader.
Please remember: when using old revolvers like this (and make no mistake, despite its modern manufacture, this is a VERY vintage-accurate design), NEVER carry the weapon with a full 6 rounds loaded in the cylinder. With the hammer down, the firing pin rests directly on the primer of the chambered cartridge, so dropping the gun on its hammer would cause that round to discharge, and you really don't want to be placing your faith in the half cock to save you. Please load 5 and decock on the empty chamber.
Reliability: It's a single action revolver. They are, if nothing else, intensely reliable. That said, I didn't exactly have a high round count through mine - a few hundred, maybe - and I'm not sure how much the guy before me fired it. The ejection mechanism works very well.
Accuracy: A little lacking, most likely a combination of three things: One, the sights are a bit hard to use. The rear is a very large V notch, and it can be difficult to line up. These sights are pretty clearly designed for speed and visibility over accuracy. Two, the sights are also not adjustable. My gun did not shoot point of aim, and there really aren't a lot of options for fixing that except re-profiling the sights mechanically. Three, the trigger is heavy as poo poo - I measured it at 6 lbs.
Fit/Finish: Cimarron does tend to shine in this regard. It is a beautiful gun, and everything felt rock solid and high quality. It locks up rock solid and is generally a very - how would I put it - "confidence-inspiring" piece.
Ergos/Comfort: Not so hot! Okay, here's where most of my issues lie. The large hinge, reinforced top strap, and underlug put a ton of this already heavy gun's weight pretty far forward. Combine that with a grip that extends pretty far back and you have an extremely unbalanced gun that's massively uncomfortable to hold one-handed for any real length of time, and this is just the 5" model. Additionally, the longer grip is combined with a shorter hammer to make one-handed cocking more difficult than with comparable single action guns. A more modern two-handed grip is important to firing this gun well. The hammer is also somewhat stiffer-feeling than that of an SAA - possibly because the shorter spur grants less leverage.
Usage: Cowboy action shooting, range toy, dry firing in front of your TV while watching westerns. Absolutely not self defense. The gun is way too huge, heavy, and underpowered.
Aftermarket: Practically none. You can get replacement grip panels, I guess.
Resale Value: Very high, actually! These really don't tend to lose much on the used market, because there are so few of them floating around and it's such an interesting and even iconic firearm, a lot of people are interested in picking one up.
Rating (out of 10): I don't like number scores. Please read the entire review, don't just read this number! Buuuut, I'd say 6 out of 10. It's a well-made, beautiful, and mechanically fascinating gun, but unless you are a cowboy action shooter who's more interested in variety and 'wow factor' than actually being competitive, or you're a cowboy gun collector who can't justify the cost of an original, or you just really liked 3:10 to Yuma and Unforgiven, I can't really recommend paying such a hefty price for such a gimmicky, non-competitive gun.
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 17:05|
I will have you know that photo is from an actual box thread I posted here way back in the mists of time.
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 17:08|
That's what makes it awesome. It's like some pinnacle of distilled TFR essence.
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 17:10|
Type Semi-auto Pistol
Caliber 9mm Luger
Weight 25oz Unloaded
Length 6.75 Inches
Barrel Length 3.5 Inches
Stock Plastic Grips
Pricing Paying more than $150 for one new or $100 for a used one is extortion.
I assume the only reason you're reading this is because you might want to buy one. No, you don't. I was once like you. Foolish and convinced that I could actually save money by buying the infamous C9. You can't. In fact, you can really only spend the money to buy the Hi-Point and then sell it at a loss later so you can buy something better. Everyone here echos this sentiment, and it is for a good reason. If you haven't taken my advice at this point I can only assume you're trying to rationalize your lust for this cheap piece of poo poo. "You guys are just gun snobs, the fine folks on The Free Republic said that these are great! You probably haven't even shot one before!" You know, I'm sure there are a few people here who do hate on the Hi point without having used one. Shame on them. But me? I'm not one of those guys. I'm a drooling idiot just like you, the kind of drooling idiot who ignored the advice of so many and bought a Hi-Point C9.
The Hi-Point C9, while undesirable for many reasons, is not for a lack of reliability. That is, if you can keep the bullet at the right angle in the magazine. It is absolutely critical that the top round in the magazine remains seated at a slight upward angle or the gun will jam, period. This isn't a big deal if you're just putting in a magazine to chamber a round, safety it and tuck it in a nightstand or whatever. This is a huge loving hazard if you're relying on changing magazines under pressure. This is because the terrible pot metal magazines don't hold up to strenuous use, especially the feed lips which are critical for keeping the top round propped up so it can feed correctly. Because of this the C9 is of little good as anything other than a range toy. Despite this critical shortcoming the gun fed all ammo given without any fuss.
The C9 has serviceable accuracy at 7-15 yards. Beyond this it is a crap shoot. This has little to do with mechanical accuracy and everything to do with the terrible sights (which, while being awful, are adjustable) and the trigger. The trigger. Holy poo poo. It's like pulling your finger through a dish of mashed potatoes. Mushy doesn't begin to describe it. Many people also claim that the trigger does not break at the exact same spot every time. I experienced this issue myself.
It's made of molded polymer and pot metal. Seriously, everything but the barrel and some reinforcing pieces are made of a Zinc alloy. The plastic has mold lines all over it. The grips are so slick from the factory that it is difficult to shoot without a Houge Handall. Soviet arsenals put way more care into fit and finish that Hi-Point ever has.
This gun is extremely front heavy and the grips are way, way too slippery. Felt recoil is quite light though. It points alright I guess.
This gun has made just about every "most used guns in crime" list since they first began to proliferate.
Hi-Point makes a laser for this and uh...I think that's it. Get it an Uncle Mikes holster or some poo poo. You should feel bad enough that you bought this gun, don't go and waste more money on equally lovely accessories.
Less than you paid for it, idiot. I mean, you're selling it because you realized that you should have saved a little extra cash and bought any 9mm Makarov surplus pistol, a new Ruger P95 or even a loving S&W Sigma for just a little bit more cash, all of which are still really cheap and are actually halfway decent pistols that you won't actively try and get rid of after a week of shooting. You really are dumb, aren't you?
Final Rating: 6/10
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 17:30|
Remington 870 Wingmaster
Type: Pump Action Shotgun
Capacity: 4+1 as sold. Pictured with a +3 round magazine tube extension
Length: Dependent on barrel and stock. Pictured with a full length stock and a 20" Imp. Cyl barrel.
Barrel Length: Anywhere from 14" to 28" or more.
Stock: Mine came with police surplus walnut stock and foreend.
Availability: Very common, but the Wingmaster variants are a little bit more difficult to find these days.
Pricing: I paid $300 for mine as a police surplus shotgun.
MSRP: Not sure about my specific shotgun as it was a police firearm that has been since discontinued.
SKU: Not sure about my specific shotgun as it was a police firearm that has been since discontinued.
This gun is awesome. It was my first firearm and will be the last one I ever sell. It does everything you would want a shotgun to do and then some.
Reliability: 100%, but like many other pump shotguns it is occasionally prone to user induced short stroking. I have had my magazine spring/follower hang up on me once or twice but that is rare and the gun was filthy. I started shooting this well before I kept track of my round counts but it is well into the thousands by now, birdshot, buckshot, slugs, etc...
Accuracy: Well, it's a shotgun. Accuracy is highly ammunition and barrel dependent. I am capable of hitting stuff with it.
Fit/Finish: Excellent. Mine has a beautiful blueing job that has held up well over time, though I get a little bit of surface rust now and then if I am not careful. The Wingmasters in particular are known for their silky smooth actions, and mine is no exception. After all of my shooting and dry fire that I've done, I am able to depress the slide release and simply thrust the gun a little into the air to lock the slide all the way to the rear. The thing cycles like melted butter.
Ergos/Comfort: This is highly user dependent. I happen to love it. The full length stock fits me perfectly.
Usage: Eh... all kinds of stuff? I've used it to shoot trap/skeet (with all the bullshit I have on it now it isn't so good at that), do some hillbilly water jug blasting, put slugs through watermelons, and I have also kept it loaded for personal protection in the past. I bought the 4 round side saddle as I had envisioned using it for local shotgun/pistol matches, but have yet to actually use it for such. These days it doesn't see much use, which is sad. Like I said, my particular 870 is police surplus, and the 870 in various incarnations has been used by police officers and militaries worldwide and still see use to this day.
Aftermarket: Incredibly, incredibly broad. Pretty much every conceivable part has an aftermarket manufacturer or three. I have on mine:
-Choate +3 Blued mag extension tube
- Nordic Components railed clamp
- Tank's Gun Shop magazine tube clamp with sling swivel
- Eagle Industries 2/3 point sling
- Wilson Combat magazine spring
- Remington Hi Vis follower
- Mesa Tactical 4 round side saddle
Resale Value: I would never sell this gun so I don't know/care. but I bet they hold their value pretty well. Not exactly investment grade but my gun was built in the 70s and most of the wear it has experienced is from me loving around with it.
Rating (out of 10): 10/10. If you want a pump shotgun, you need to buy this one. That's the long and short of it.
Also - for those of you curious about how it measures up to the 870 express, they really don't even compare. The Wingmaster is far and away the better gun. the finish is much better on the wingmaster - teh matte blue on the Express rusts if you look at it halfway wrong. There are more MIM and plastic parts in the Express, too - the wingmaster is all machined steel. It's also worth bearing in mind that Remington has been making Wingmasters for almost 70 years now, and there is a lot of variance between the different models that I just dont know about. The older Wingmasters (as their name might suggest) were waterfowl guns, and so they usually come with 24+ inch barrels and have thinner forearms. If you can find a used police Wingmaster - usually distinguished by the walnut furniture and the fore-end that looks like the one on my gun- I highly recommend you pick one of those up over the older 50's Wingmasters. The 870 Police is also a great firearm and certainly better than the express but I've never gotten my hands on one myself .
Kommienzuspadt fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2013 around 12:53
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 17:39|
Rossi M92 Trapper Carbine
Type: Rifle - Lever Action
Caliber: .357 Magnum & .38 Special
Capacity: 8+1 officially, but can hold 9+1 in practice.
Weight: 4.8 lbs
Length: Unsure, sorry. Not listed and I don't have mine anymore, but around 30".
Barrel Length: 16"
Stock: Smooth, satin-finished beech, I think.
Availability: Most sporting goods and gun stores can get 'em. Plenty floating around used.
Pricing: Paid ~$450 new a few years ago.
Rossi's M92 is a rising star in the world of modern, pistol caliber lever action rifles, which sounds like a specific niche but is actually a critically important market for the cowboy gun crowd. With the market void created by Marlin's sharp decline in quality after their acquisition by Remington and the correlated increase in the value of the older, better Marlins, Rossi has handily replaced them as the "budget" centerfire levergun of choice.
The M92 is a clone of Winchester's model 1892 action, a John Browning design originating in the 1860s to replace the toggle link lever action Winchester had previously been famous for. The 86/92 action is incredibly robust, originally designed to fire .45-70 Gov't. cartridges. If you're looking for a lever action with the intent of firing magnum cartridges, the 92 is a natural choice over the more expensive yet more frail Uberti reproductions of older WInchester designs.
QUICK SAFETY DISCLAIMER: When using a gun with a tube magazine where the rounds will be stacked bullet-to-primer, choose your ammunition carefully! Avoid ball/FMJ; stick to lead bullets with rounded or flattened noses that won't set off primers in front of them.
Reliability: Ooh, right off the bat, we get to tackle the biggest issue of the Rossi M92. If you buy one, you !!MUST!! also buy a metal follower for the magazine tube. Here's why: at any given time, the rifle has a round chambered, a round in the receiver on the carrier, and the rest in the magazine tube. When you cycle the action to load the 2nd to last round in the gun, the magazine tube will be pushing its last round out onto the carrier. The nylon follower that comes with the gun is forced against an opening ever so slightly smaller than it, which causes it to distend and distort. If it has distorted, then it'll stick into the receiver too far, pushing the second to last round's rim underneath the bolt. When you close the action, you're going to have one hell of a time opening it again, as you're now nice and jammed, since your messed up follower pushed the last round too far into the receiver.
The good news is that's a super cheap and easy fix. It's just a silly one to have to deal with.
Also, be wary of overall cartridge length. The gun handles .357 magnum and .38 special just fine, but not if the .38 special is too short. Don't use wadcutters, for instance, or super short flat nosed bullets.
Accuracy: Great! The trigger is perfectly acceptable, actually on the 'light' side of normal for a lever gun, and the sights are a very standard semi buckhorn. The front is plain, though, which is a bummer - I definitely prefer a bead of some sort on a lever action. My gun strongly preferred lighter grain bullets when I tested accuracy - it grouped remarkably well with 125gr and 130gr ammunition, and fell off a bit with 158gr bullets.
Fit/Finish: This wood isn't very pretty. Just gonna throw that out there. When I received mine, the wood had white streaks indicative of being overly dried out, so I rubbed it through with mineral spirits a few times, which helped. It's still not a gorgeous stock, and Winchester 1892 stocks are sadly not a direct drop-in replacement. Metal fitting is fine, but it's not gonna blow you away with quality. These are inexpensive guns that work very well, but they're not gonna impress too much visually, unless you like the understated simplicity.
Ergos/Comfort: Awesome awesome awesome awesome. This gun is so laughably light and handy, you could fire it one-handed all day long. The satin finish is super comfortable. The gun levels instinctively, with the sights lining up naturally. It seriously handles so well, it's fantastic. You're never gonna find yourself fighting it. The LOP is nice, the buttstock is slightly curved to fit your shoulder, and the throw is relatively smooth, until the end. Protip here: most people think that hitch at the end of the lever throw on a 92 is caused by the locking lugs sliding back into the bolt, but it's not. It's actually the extractor spring compressing against the breach face. If you want to smooth this out, there are guides online on how to cut and stretch that extractor spring, or you can purchase a lightened one.
Usage: Cowboy action (though you would want at least the 20" barreled model, since the 16" barreled one does not hold the requisite 10 rounds in the tube that you need), range toy, hunting (especially in alternate chamberings .44 magnum and .454 casull)
Aftermarket: Pretty decent! Since you've got standard dovetails, there are tons of sight options from Marble Arms and such. Spring kits and performance upgrades are available from Steve's Gunz, who is basically the go-to guy for all things Rossi. The gun has a metal tang, which could be drilled and tapped for a sight if you like. The US imports also have a 'lawyer safety' on top of the bolt, which can be replaced with a peep sight (also available from Steve's).
Resale Value: Fine, just fine. Their popularity in SASS means you should be able to move one quickly, but their ubiquity means you're not gonna get a fortune for it.
Rating (out of 10): I could give this such a high score if they would have sorted out that feed issue in the factory. It takes ONE part and a few minutes of work, but nope, here we are. That, plus the plain-jane looks and lack of accoutrement, is gonna make me give it a 7.5 out of 10 which, you know, may not sound great, but I do seriously heartily endorse this gun. Fix that fatal feed flaw and you've got a very fine rifle on your hands for just a few hundred bucks.
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 18:03|
Aftermarket: I dunno, are you into armbands?
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 18:14|
|# ? Mar 21, 2013 19:54|
Well, I guess I know who doesn't need an armband for christmas.
|# ? Mar 22, 2013 03:46|
Usage: , the Viet Cong, pretty much every lovely third world militia who ever bought crap from the USSR
Forget not the DPRK.
|# ? Mar 22, 2013 04:10|
Swiss Arms Black Special / SIG 550
Type: Piston operated Semi-Automatic
Capacity: 5 Rounds
Weight: 4.1 kg
Barrel Length: 528 mm
Stock: Plastic Folding
Availability: Canada, Switzerland
Pricing: $3000+ CAD / CHF
Your Review: The SIG 55x rifles are great. I can't really say much more than the reputation of these rifles is well deserved. The American rifles suffer from being made by SIG-USA, but are also great rifles for a realistic price. My only criticism is that it is heavy and expensive.
Reliability: I have not had any problems with this rifle. I have owned it for 1.5 years and put about 1500 rounds through it.
Accuracy: I shoot it at 300m with open sights and I score 80/100 on average.
Fit/Finish: I would best describe it as if a K31, and an AK-74 had a baby.
Ergos/Comfort: Integral bipod is easy to use. Ambidextrous fire selector is in a comfortable position and easy to manipulate. Diopter sight is very intuitive to use. Stock is easy to fold and is a comfortable shape.
Usage: I use mine for 300m Swiss style shooting. It is generally viewed as a precision combat rifle.
Aftermarket: In Canada we have access to a small market of Swiss and Canadian made products both of very good or better quality.
Resale Value: I bought my rifle for $2700.00 used when they were going for $3400 new, although it was missing a bipod which I had to purchase - $300.00 for an adjustable Swiss made one.
Rating (out of 10): 8/10
|# ? Mar 22, 2013 05:15|
Heritage Rough Ryder Bird's Head
Type: Single Action Army styled rimfire revolver
Stock: Round Butt Cocobolo
Availability: More available than AR Mags, less available than Mosins
Pricing: $150-175 average
Short Review: This gun is NOT a Ruger Single Six, which is probably it's biggest problem. It is absolutely a cheap gun that skimps on certain things like nicely finished steel. But it is absolutely a very FUN gun. .22 pistols in general just have a retarded fun about them, and it's amplified when you get to cock a ridiculously satisfying hammer between each shot. The round butt looks pretty cool, but that's about it. If I were to buy it again I'd probably just get the standard grip shape. It also seems to get a little bit more care in manufacturing than your average Rohm, Jennings, or HiPoint. Other than one parts breakage across it's life, I haven't had a single issue with the gun.
Reliability:After 2000 rounds of typical bulk box .22lr, with some better CCI stuff in the mix, as well as exactly 100 rounds of .22WMR, not a single failure to fire, cycle, or eject. At approx. 1800 rounds, the hammer hand spring broke and I ordered another one from the manufacturer and replaced it. Other than one part breakage, no issues.
Accuracy: Minute of pie plate, minute of pop can if you're pretty good. I can hit a bottle cap in under six rounds. This is all at around the 15 yard mark.
Fit/Finish: Cylinder and barrel are (cold?) blued steel, the hammer seems to be white steel, the rest of the metal on the gun is a painted alloy, probably some sort of zinc pot metal. It is all supposed to look blued. The cocobolo grips are surprisingly nice, I was expecting some sort of plywood or cardboard when I ordered it but they have nice grain figuring and seem to be nicely finished. All parts fit together nicely, and having completely disassembled it to replace a part, there is a decent level of craftsmanship throughout the gun. No play, tool marks, or mold lines to be found anywhere.
Ergos/Comfort: I have large hands with long spindly fingers and the birds head grip is not the pinnacle of shooting pleasure. I ordered it thinking it would be just super neat, and it totally is, but it's hard getting a good repeatable firm grip on the thing. Beyond that, standard SAA ergonomic controls. It seems to have a decent trigger for what it is. It does deviate from the standard SAA design by incorporating a positive safety lever on the frame on the opposite side of the loading gate. To many, this destroys the look of the natural design, but truthfully it has never gotten in my way, and I do like one more piece of peace of mind when I'm using this gun to train shooters who have never handled a firearm before. If left disengaged it is 100% out of the way of any standard operations of the gun.
Usage:Shooting Cheaply for fun, playing cowboy, introducing new and especially young shooters, experimenting with odd or low power .22lr loadings, could be used for small pest dispatch (especially with the WMR cylinder). I have had ten times the value of this gun's worth in fun just shooting it at my family farm, especially with new shooters in the 10-15yo age group. It's operation makes for a great introduction to basic handling and safety of firearms and every kid I've taught on it, wants to go back to it after trying out everything else in the arsenal. I myself have put the majority of ammo through it, it's very relaxing fun even though it's a little challenging to accomplish good marksmanship. It also takes so goddamn long to unload/reload that even a small box of .22lr lasts an afternoon. It comes with the .22 Magnum cylinder which I've shot a bit just to try it out, and it's very cool and loud, but to me seems a little pointless because if I want to shoot something that costs what 9mm does, I'll shoot my 9mm.
Aftermarket: I presume it to use the same holsters and grips as the single six, and likely many other parts could be interchanged. Otherwise, Heritage MFG sells all parts separately if replacement is needed
Resale Value: Probably so low I'd never even consider selling it
Rating (out of 10): 5 on general build quality, 9 on fun.
Action Jesus fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2013 around 05:33
|# ? Mar 22, 2013 05:28|
Type: CZ P-01
Capacity: 14rd (can use full size 17rd, and hi-cap 25rd)
∙ Overall Length: 7.2in
∙ Height: 5.03in
∙ Width: 1.38in
Barrel Length: 3.8in
Stock: Rubber grips standard (aluminum, wood also available)
Availability: Somewhat uncommon
Your Review: The modernized version of the CZ75 compact, using an alloy frame instead of steel. I absolutely love this gun. DA/SA, and uses a decocker instead of a manual safety, so expect people to fiddle with it when you hand it to them. If using for concealed carry, get Mec-gar mags for their steel baseplates. The stock rubber baseplates can snag on clothing. I also recommend a Crossbreed supertuck holster or equivalent, since the gun is somewhat heavier due to the metal frame. Very good gun for the money, feels solid in the hand, and very accurate.
Reliability: I have had zero reliability issues in my three years of ownership. However, the slide top and plastic guide rod are potential weak points. CZ touts the gun's reliability and has put it through rigorous testing - 3 failures in 15,000 rounds or something like that.
Accuracy: Very accurate. The slide rides inside the frame vs outside like most handguns. The fit was extremely tight when new, it was pretty difficult to pull back. The trigger can be a bit gritty out of the box, but improves with use.
Fit/Finish: Black polycoat over phosphate finish. Looks good on the outside, but the inside is a different story. Out of sight, out of mind though, right? The feed ramp is nicely polished, so I suppose the important bits get cared for.
Ergos/Comfort: Very comfortable, fits my hand perfectly. Frame mounted decocker makes for easy and safe hammer lowering. The slide has less exposed area, due to riding inside the frame, which may make it harder to grip and cock. If you like carrying with an empty chamber, this may slow you down. Grips can be changed, but no backstraps or anything like that.
Usage: Designed as a police/military pistol. Good for the range, concealed carry, nightstand duty, etc.
Aftermarket: Has a standard rail for mounting a light/laser. Interchangable grips and night sights are available.
Resale Value: Should hold its value more or less, like most mass-produced guns in this group.
Rating (out of 10): 9/10. I consider it in the tier of G19s, USPs, 226s, etc. All reliable, quality guns. The rest is personal preference and whatever fits your hand the best.
|# ? Mar 22, 2013 05:44|
FN/Browning Hi Power, Mk.II
Type: Semiauto pistol
Capacity: 13,15; 10 and 30 too if you're some kind of deviant
Barrel Length: 4.7"
Stock: wood (in your dreams)
Availability: Fuckin' everywhere
Pricing: $400 and up
Your Review: Pretty much the AK of pistols, everyone in the past century-ish who was serious about shooting motherfuckers either used one or made their own variant of one and with good reason. It's the 9mm semiauto that set the standards for everything to follow, and while it's pretty long in the tooth at this point it's still pretty comparable to new designs except around 50x chiller, made out of actual metal like a grown-up gun, and older than your dad.
Reliability: The Mk. II, first produced in 1982, features an improved feed ramp that allows it to feed hollowpoints and other non-roundnosed bullets without error; if you land a MK1 be aware that it's FMJ-only. While it will feed and fire it just fine, 124gr +P ammo tends to batter the frame and slide excessively and shorten the gun's lifespan over the course of thousands or tens of thousands of rounds. Outside that, the only other common errors in the BHP come from limpwristing. Use OEM or (better yet) Mec-Gar mags.
Accuracy: Designed more around shortranged combat use than precision target shooting, the optimistic 500m notch on tangent-sighted models notwithstanding. The biggest hindrance to accurate shooting is its heavy trigger, thanks to its terrible magazine disconnect assembly dragging on everything. This can be exorcised using a 1.5mm punch and a book of common prayer to substantially improve the trigger and as a bonus allow magazines to drop free, sacrificing nothing but the inability of the gun to fire without a magazine inserted.
Fit/Finish: Finish can be anything from enamel to bluing to hideous parkerization, especially on military surplus models. The metal work and fitting are excellent as is typical of Browning and FN products.
Ergos/Comfort: While somewhat subjective, many find HPs point very naturally and are quick to pick up targets. They're svelte for doublestacks, and once you're used to shooting 'em other modern combat pistols tend to wind up feeling chunky and awkward. Those who are themselves kind of chunky and awkward are advised to steer clear of ring-hammered models, or purchase a Cylinder & Slide no-bite hammer to keep the webbing between thumb and forefinger unmolested. As mentioned, the biggest ergonomic flaws are tied to the magazine disconnect, which can be optionally removed in the same sense that splinting a broken leg is optional.
Usage: Shooting motherfuckers, paper, or televisions.
Aftermarket: Pretty broad! C&S makes some excellent trigger, hammer, and spring kits for improving shooting performance, several vendors offer gaudy narco-boss grip panels for your dubious aesthetic enjoyment, and half the militaries in the world have spent about seventy years making wierd poo poo for the Hi-Power up to and including the highly desirable detachable stocks (don't count on getting one of these in the US).
Resale Value: Used ones retain their value pretty well, new suffer a heavy Browning tax that you will never recoup.
Rating (out of 10): 8, 9 if you have one for each hand.
Cimarron No. 3 Schofield
I want a top-break so bad, why are they all so mediocre
|# ? Mar 22, 2013 05:49|
Smith and Wesson M&P15-22
Capacity: factory - 10-25; aftermarket - 50
Weight: 5.5 lbs.
Length: 33.75" Extended/30.5" Collapsed
Barrel Length: 16"
Stock: 6-position carbine stock and A2 pistol grip
Availability: good luck
Pricing: probably retarded
MSRP: $499 - $749 (performance center)
What can I say? If you want a quality tactical .22 that is shaped like an AR-15, this is the gun to buy. The charging handle, bolt hold, safety, and magazine release all work exactly like an AR, unlike the Colt/HK/Umarex and Mossberg guns. It is actually made by Smith and Wesson, not an outside source. My particular model has a collapsible stock and threaded barrel.
Reliability: I probably have less than 500 rounds through it, but it's been reliable. The magazines are kind of tricky, so you have to take your time when loading them. Otherwise, a crooked round could cause feeding issues. Early models had issues with the extractor or some poo poo, but S&W has long since fixed that problem.
Accuracy: I haven't shot it past 50 yards, but it's very accurate. The barrel has a 1:15" twist. The stock sights are A2-style, with a "6/3" style rear sight. It doesn't really matter, since it'll probably never be adjusted for elevation. The upper receiver has a top rail, so optic options are practically unlimited. I mounted an Ampoint Micro R-1 on mine, although I'm considering taking it off and using just the irons.
Fit/Finish: Excellent. There's no wobble between the upper and lower. The stock wiggles, but it's a standard carbine stock. I think it comes with the territory. The trigger feels like a standard AR (considering it is a standard AR trigger), which is to say it's not bad. I've never used a Geissele, so I don't really have anything to compare it to. The only thing people might have an issue with is its construction. Excluding the barrel, bolt and LPK, it's all polymer. Since it'll only ever shoot .22LR, I don't think it's a big deal.
Ergos/Comfort: Same as any other AR. It's pretty light, so it's easy to maneuver around. The stock is adjustable, so it'll fit a wide range of shooters. The aftermarket is huge, so you can pretty much customize it however you want.
Usage: I bought it to use as a range toy, and it's great for that. If there's a .22 version of 3-gun, it would be good for that too. Throw on a variable power scope, and it'll be excellent for squirrel control.
Aftermarket: Most AR-15 dress-up parts will fit the 15-22. The barrel threads are standard 1/2 X28 TPI, which will accept any AR muzzle device or suppressor. An aftermarket barrel nut adapter is required to install free-float tubes. The stock fore end is a quad rail, so it can be loaded up with lasers, lights, and grip-pods. The LPK is mil-spec, so any trigger kit will work. The selector switch is slightly different, but there is a BADASS kit available. The "buffer tube" is MIL-Spec, so any carbine stock will fit. Same with the pistol grip. Magazines are proprietary, so there aren't many options available. Black Dog makes a 50-rounder.
Resale Value: Since we're in the midst of an AWB panic, resale is probably pretty good. I don't plan on selling mine, so I don't really care.
Rating (9 out of 10): Proprietary magazines are really the only thing keeping me from giving it a full 10.
Mad Dragon fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2013 around 06:06
|# ? Mar 22, 2013 06:01|
CZ SP-01 Shadow
Type: DA/SA Pistol
Caliber: 9mm Luger
Capacity: 10+1 or 18+1
Weight: 1180 g
Length: 207 mm
Barrel Length: 114 mm (or 122 mm)
Availability: Widely available, popular competition gun.
Pricing: Varies on where you get it, I paid AU$900 for a second hand one with 5 magazines, not sure about US or European prices.
MSRP: AU$1,350 US$1,050
Your Review: The Shadow is a CZ 75 designed for competition, specifically IPSC. It shoots like a dream, is solid and weighty, without being too heavy. It absorbs the moderate recoil of 9mm really well, the stock rubber grips are great, but the aftermarket cocobolo grips are absolutely beautiful.
Reliability: I had some problems early on, but the reloads I was using were slightly too long. I adjusted my overall length and haven't had a problem since. It ran flawlessly with the WWB I put through it last year. Any minor problems I do have may be due to the second hand 10 round magazines that came with the gun, I'd love to try full capacity magazines, but I'd have to go overseas to do that.
Accuracy: I've hit the A zone on IPSC targets at 50 metres in competition, shooting from a standing position. If I really try, I can put several holes into the same target patch at 7 metres.
Fit/Finish: Black polycoat, really well put together. There are some minor rough machining marks on the inside of the frame, but those are just minor aesthetic blemishes and do not affect functionality. The barrel, slide and frame fit together really nicely.
Ergos/Comfort: It fits perfectly into my hand. I tried several handguns before I actually purchased one and just kept going back to the Shadow. The ambi safety makes an excellent thumb rest, the beavertail lets you get a high grip without danger of slidebite. The manual safety means you can carry it cocked and locked as well as hammer down in condition 2.
Usage: Range fuckery through to serious competition.
Aftermarket: It has a rail on the underside of the frame, there are several aftermarket grips available and CZ Custom offers a lot of tweaking options.
Resale Value: Very good, they are always in demand amongst competition shooters.
Rating (out of 10): 9.5/10 Some minor machining marks on the inside of the frame and slight pickiness with ammo are all that stop me giving this a full 10.
|# ? Mar 22, 2013 15:47|
FN/Browning Hi Power, Mk.II
Seriously I really really need to buy one. It's pissing me off that I've keep either missing chances to get one or being stupid and not getting one while I can.
|# ? Mar 22, 2013 16:36|
Type: Molot Super Vepr
Capacity: 5-10-20, this one is cut for M14/M1A magazines so the sky's the limit. Factory is 5 and 10 rounds.
Length: 41" OAL
Barrel Length: 22" fluted
MSRP: around $1000-1200
It's an AK that was assembled by sober people. This particular one is the older generation from 4-5 years ago. The most recent imports have some changes. This one has a target crown, the newer ones are integrally compensated. This one also has a dustcover rail, while the newer ones have a more traditional side mounted rail. Recoil is soft and controllable. It's a neat and interesting gun, but don't get one if you're looking for match grade performance. Just keep in mind that Molot is sorta like Russia's Mossberg or Ruger. These are the high end of the utility rifle market, meant to be shot and enjoyed, not stored away for fear of getting mud in the engraving.
No failures in the 300-ish rounds I've put through it.
It's an overpolished AK. So, not great in the grand scheme. It's among the best of AKs, but if you want a gas piston target gun save the $300 extra and get a Sig 551A1. This was designed to be minute-of-deer-vitals at 200 meters, which it does. The stock is for some reason aligned such that you get a cheekweld with the irons. It's a chinweld with medium rings that barely get the scope cleared of the rear sight block.
Extremely good...for an AK. The action feels like a Sig, sounds like an AK. It does have obvious gaps and looser tolerances compared to say, an AR-15, but it feels and looks generally better than my SGL-21. It does have lots of machining marks but the finish itself is much smoother and glossier compared the usual 1000-grit AK finish.
Pretty good. It's well balanced and easy to hold comfortably from a bench or standing. The trigger isn't match grade but nice enough to shoot all day. It's roughly 5-6 lbs, with about a centimeter of takeup to a slightly mushy tension into clean break. Magazine changes are rock-and-lock and very easy with a tilting bipod. The stock could stand to be slightly longer if you shoot prone. The scope rail is pretty short, so eye relief is a little trickier with the short stock. But if you think the PSL stock is a bit too long, you'll probably like the Super Vepr. It's pretty heavy to lug around all day on your back, but if you're hunting from quads or a stand or on short hikes from a truck it's manageable.
Occasional hunting, plinking, drawing a small crowd at the range
Virtually nonexistant. There isn't much to swap out anyways. Red Star supposedly makes a replacement trigger, Krebs will cut the magwell for M14 mags, there's not much else that even can be swapped out. It isn't really meant to have an aftermarket, it's Vladimir's deer rahful.
Resale Value: This is an uncommon gun. They are imported sporadically and not in any great volume, and were $1000 in the days of sub-$400 WASRs. But given the novelty and aesthetics, I'd put it on the high end for resale value.
Propagandalf fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2013 around 02:56
|# ? Mar 23, 2013 02:46|
Type: Steyr M9
Weight: Enough to know its in your hand
Barrel Length: 4"
Stock: Pistol grip
Pricing: $4-500 NiB
MSRP: Around usual selling prices I guess
Your Review: My love affair with the M9 is not exactly a secret. Once you get accustomed to the sights(they are trapezoid 'speed sights') the M9 becomes a laser. With its low slide profile, rapid follow-up shots are quite easy to pull off. My only gripe with this model is that it felt a little anorexic in my mitts, but a Hougue HandAll fixed that issue. Anyone who has handled mine has agreed that it is a really neat platform, but its accessibility suffers from its non-traditional sights. I admit I have a little re-acclimation period when I go back to notch sights.
Reliability: The only issues Ive ever had with this pistol are directly related to the ammo that I was using. I had a squib round and it locked up the entire pistol pretty well. After clearing the barrel and cleaning out the unburnt powder, it ran like usual.
Accuracy: Ive bench fired my M9 a number of times and the point of the front post triangle is where that shot will hit. Misses and such are 100% user error.
Fit/Finish: The finish seems to hold up pretty well against holster wear and general handling. The pistols fit is nice and tight as well. I dont get much(if any) rattle from mine when I give it a good shake.
Ergos/Comfort: Without the HandAll grip it felt a little narrow in my hands, but I prefer something with a little swell in the palm. There is a single finger groove on the grip, but its quite small and has proven to be a really good index point for my grip.
Usage: I use mine for everyday carry, loving around at the range, 3gun events, and really everything in between.
Aftermarket: Because it never really took off in a mainstream way the aftermarket is almost nonexistent. This is a big reason why I got into crafting my own holsters. There is stuff available, but its pricey.
Resale Value: Ive seen used M9s go for $350-400 on Gunbroker, although I havent really checked recently.
There is another model of the M9 available as well. The M9-A1. It boasts a better designed grip, standard rail, and some other tweaks.
|# ? Mar 23, 2013 03:27|
Caliber: 12 gauge
Capacity: 5+1+1 (expandable to 7+1+1 with aftermarket magazine tubes and 922(r) compliance parts)
Weight: 7.8 lb
Barrel Length: 18.5"
Stock: Fixed pistol grip (factory collapsible pistol grip and traditional stocks also available)
Street price: ~$1700 to MSRP
Your Review: Operation is typical for an auto shotgun. The gun is capable of ghost loading, where in addition to the rounds in the magazine and the round in the chamber, a round can be stored on the lifter, giving you one more shot.
The trigger safety is located behind the trigger, and is reversible for left handed shooters. The only complaint I have with the controls is that the bolt release button is a little small, but this can be remedied with an aftermarket button.
The action uses two short-stroke gas pistons that operate directly against the bolt carrier. While it's still a 12 gauge shotgun, recoil is relatively light compared to a 12 gauge pump.
The barrel is threaded for Benelli chokes. The gun also features rear sling mounts integral to the stock, and a front sling mount that can be rotated to either side or underneath by using a pair of snap ring pliers.
Takedown is simple: Unscrew the ratcheting magazine cap and the barrel and handguards slide off the magazine tube. Pull out the charging handle and the bolt and bolt carrier drop out of the front of the receiver. A single captured push pin holds in the trigger group. With the trigger group removed, the stock rotates on and off the back of the receiver.
Reliability: Unlike other auto shotguns I've owned (Remington 1187 Police, FN SLP, Saiga 12) the Benelli's never had a problem cycling any ammo I've put through it, from 7 1/2 shot to slugs.
Accuracy: It's a shotgun. It has ghost ring sights, so you're not going to be shooting skeet with it. 50 yard slug shots weren't a problem.
Fit/Finish: Excellent. It's a tank. Everything fits together well and is nicely finished. In particular, I like that the loading gate and lifter are contoured so you won't cut yourself when loading shells (which I've done on other shotguns).
Ergos/Comfort: At 6'2", the factory fixed pistol grip stock is still a little long for me, but Mesa Tactical offers aftermarket stocks with a shorter LOP. The gun features a picatinny scope rail, but any scope you put on it will require a higher, slightly un-natural cheek/chin weld than the factory ghost ring sights. Luckily, the same Mesa Tactical stocks are available with integral cheek risers, which fix this problem. The ghost ring sights aren't usable once a scope is mounted.
Usage: Making things blow up, IDPA DMG & 3-gun.
Aftermarket: Not terribly large, but large enough. There's several brands of aftermarket mag tubes, charging handles, followers and handguards (with and without rails) available; Geissele offers a hammer and Mesa Tactical offers stocks and shell carriers. There's several possible options to get enough 922(r) parts on the gun in order to legally install a larger 7-round magazine.
Resale Value: Gunbroker auctions of used M4s seem to show that they hold value pretty well.
There are also factory 14" short-barrel M4s available, along with an 18" factory desert camo model.
|# ? Mar 23, 2013 04:44|
Walther PPQ (Polizei Pistole Quick Defense)
Type: Striker-fired DAO Double-stack Polymer frame
Caliber: 9mm Parabellum, .40 Smith & Wesson
Capacity: 9mm: 15, .40S&W: 12
Weight: ~25oz loaded
Barrel Length: 4"
Availability: Phasing out to be replaced by the PPQ M2
Pricing: Right now, $600-800
Walther's replacement for the P99. Out of all of the striker-fired DAO polymer handguns, this is my favorite. Between the grip, the mag release, and the trigger, the PPQ has a lot to elevate it above the crowd.
I love cleaning mine so I haven't let it get too dirty, but it does have that delicious low-friction bluing that lets it fire even when gritty.
I'm no marksman, but it hits the things I aim at!
Again, I'm not an expert, but for the price I am very impressed.
The grip is divine and the ability to drop the magazine without adjusting your firing grip can not be understated. Lengthened ambidextrous slide release makes it easy to drop the slide after your next magazine is in. Removable backstraps for comfort. The gun is lightweight enough for easy every day carry, and heavy enough to make firing 9mm pleasant.
As a striker-fired DAO polymer handgun, it is ideal for self-defense. The compact TLR-3 and TLR-4 fit perfectly on it.
Compatible with second version Walther P99 magazines, and some Jericho magazines, so magazines should never be prohibitively expensive. Compatible with P99 night sights. If you can't find a 1st Edition PPQ with factory night sights and threaded barrels., Jarvis makes threaded barrels for the PPQ.
If you get the original PPQ with the magazine paddle flipper instead of the new PPQ M2, the resale value could be quite high.
|# ? Mar 23, 2013 08:51|
pictured with Sako carry sling and optional Sako muzzle brake and bipod and quick detachable optilock with Swarovski 6-18x50 AV with TDS-4 reticle
Type: bolt action rifle
Caliber: .308 (also special order examples exist in .260 and the long action version the TRG-42 is available in .338 Lapua Mag and .300 Win Mag)
Weight: 10 3/4 lbs
Length: 45 1/4"
Barrel Length: 26" (also available in a short 20" barrel) 1 in 11" twist for .308 (1 in 8" twist for .260)
Stock: Copolymer stock with aluminum skeleton inside
Availability: Imported by Beretta and can be special ordered at shops that carry Sako. Eurooptic, Impact Guns and others online also carry the Sako TRG line.
Pricing: $3,048.00-$3,448.00 depending on finish (with folding stock $5,795.00) Budget for a mount and scope.
MSRP: $3,450.00 (with folding stock $5,825.00)
So I hear the Finns might know something about sniping.
Sako is known for its nice bolt action hunting rifles but overshadowed a bit by other brands in the sniper rifle market. The Sako TRG-22 isnít in the rarified world of the true custom rifle. It fits squarely within the realm of the service sniper/precision marksman rifle occupied by such rifles as the Remington M24, Blaser Tactical 2, Remington MSR and at the high end the AI AX308. When U.S. SOCOM went to select a precision sniper rifle, after 3 years of testing the final 2 competitors left were the Remington MSR and the Sako TRG M10 with the Remington winning.
The TRG-22 is an excellent precision marksman rifle straight from the factory. Its absolute theoretical accuracy is limited a bit by the .308 chambering but the outstanding trigger and excellent ergos make it a very easy rifle to shoot well.
The rifle is a bit expensive but the accessories are insanely expensive and obviously youíll want to spring for a high quality scope such as Nightforce or S&B. Therefore, the final price will probably be in the $6-7k price range including everything. I think itís well worth it but given the quality of the competitors at that price range it is largely a matter of personal preference. To me this is the perfect rifle with which to keep Russians out of your backyard if say you have a winter war. Oddly enough, it's not available in white or arctic camo. I am not only keeping this rifle. I'm looking to get a second one in .260.
I have less than a 1000 rounds through the rifle. It is a bolt action so there is not that much that can go wrong. I will note that the bolt when fully open has a touch of play. If you do not lubricate the bolt and drive the bolt forward while maintaining downward or lateral pressure on the bolt handle, you can get it to bind as it rubs the inside of the receiver. This will then require you to release the pressure a bit to stop the binding and allow you so close the bolt. This is not an issue if you keep the bolt lubricated or don't push the bolt down or laterally while you close it. I still like the Sako action and it feeds and ejects well.
Despite not being as accurate as the hot 6.5mm and 7mm rounds, .308 has the advantage of being very gentle on barrels and chambers. Youíll probably get at least double the serviceable life out of a .308 barrel than you will say a 6.5x284 Norma or 7mm WSM.
I also find that the quick detach optilock mount locking lever can start to open in use so I recommend the 3 ring non-QD optilock mounts instead unless you really need the QD feature or using locktite which defeats the purpose of QD.
This is a true sub-MOA rifle.
Some people claim that a rifle is sub-MOA by cherry picking a 3 round group at 100 yards or by shooting a 5 round group at 100 yards and excluding the first shot for being cold bore and the worst shot for being a flyer.
However, most TRG-22 using good ammunition can get consistent 5 shot groups 1/2 MOA give or take at distances of 300 yards and under. I've seen 1/4 MOA 5 shot groups at those distances but I've also seen 3/4 MOA groups. Now please don't shoot the worst third world surplus 7.62 you can find and then come back to complain to me about 1.5+ MOA accuracy. I am assuming quality ammunition, either handloads or, at a minimum, decent quality factory ammunition like the 168 or 175 gr SMK Federal Gold Medal Match.
The rifle is limited in part by the ballistic accuracy of the .308 bullets which have BC that isn't as good as the good match bullets available in 6.5mm and 7mm. For those who need that extra edge out at 800+ yards or in high winds, Eurooptic has previously ordered TRG-22 in ,260. They are all sold out but hopefully they will special order more eventually. Despite not having high BC, .308 is not as bad as some claim. Palma guys shoot .308 through custom rifles at 800, 900 and 1000 yards with iron sights.
In addition to the mechanical/ballistic accuracy issues, the subjective accuracy is very good because of the quality of the rifle. The trigger is outstanding. I use an outstanding Geissele SSA-E 2 stage trigger on my AR. But the stock adjustable 2 stage Sako TRG-22 trigger is much better. The Sako trigger feels much lighter and the second stage has absolutely no creep at all and breaks much sharper than the SSA-E. Now this is an unfair comparison as the SSA-E is a duty/DMR type trigger and the Sako trigger is meant for dedicated sniper work but I wanted to give a frame of reference. As noted before, not only is the Sako trigger adjustable for pull weight but also length and horizontal and vertical pitch. The only triggers I've shot that are better are Olympic small bore pistols and other pure competition triggers.
The fit and build quality is excellent. The build quality is outstandingly solid and the rifle is relatively modular so the forend, stock, trigger assembly can be taken apart. Itís solid enough that you feel like you could use it as a club. But note that this is a factory made rifle. It is not a true custom build so you canít expect the same build quality as a full custom rifle.
The finish is a black phosphate on my barrel and receiver and the stock is a green textured composite. The phosphate is a touch rougher than other types of finishes. While the barrel is fine, I find that the exterior of the outer receiver is not as corrosion resistant as some other finishes.
The rifle is extremely comfortable to shoot and most things can be adjusted. The cheek piece can be adjusted with spacers for cheek weld. The stock can use spacers to adjust length of pull as well as the angle, height and cant of the buttstock pad. The trigger can be adjusted for weight and is adjustable in three directions: length, horizontal and vertical pitch. Unfortunately, all these adjustments need tools and cannot be done quickly on the fly.
The main ergonomic problem is the heavy weight. The rifle weighs almost 11 pounds unloaded with no accessories. Once you add a bipod, scope, mount and other accessories it can tip the scale at close to 15 pounds. As a result, it is not the best hunting rifle. Youíd get tired of the weight quickly.
The other thing I donít like is having the safety inside the trigger guard. The safety is a small tab that sits in the trigger guard in front of the trigger. It is pulled back to engage the safety and pushed forward to disengage. Now this is a precision rifle and not a combat carbine so the related safety issues are not that great but Iím still not a fan.
Usage:This is a range rifle and precision marksman rifle. The TRG-22 is best for use as a sniper rifle or UIT/CISM/competition rifle. Its length and heavy weight do not make it an ideal hunting rifle. And within the typical distance for ethical hunting the added accuracy of the TRG-22 doesn't provide that much benefit over getting a Sako 85.
Aftermarket: Few third party accessories exist for the Sako TRG-22. However, Sako makes many accessories for the TRG-22. The top of the receiver has a 17mm integral dovetail for mounting optics but you can add a Pictatinny rail adaptor to the receiver. The barrel is threaded M18x1 (18x1mm) for muzzle brakes and suppressors. You will need a case as paying 3k+ for a rifle doesn't get you one as Sako sends them out in cardboard boxes.
The factory bipod is very stable. It hangs the rifle under the apex of the top of the triangle formed by the legs. Please note that the bipod feet have claws for stability in dirt and soft terrain and thus do not sit well on a bench.
The prices of the official Sako accessories are mind blowing even without a panic. But at least the prices have not been affected by the panic.
Examples of street prices are:
Spare magazine $179
Muzzle brake $189
Quick release 2 ring Optilock scope mount $269
3 ring scope mount $349
Picatinny rail adaptor $349
Forend accessory tri-rail $385
Forend bottom rail $235
Match sight $279
Emergency combat sights $306
Near Manufacturing makes TRG scope mounts
KRG makes a conversion kit for the TRG-22 which allows it to use AICS magazines. This kit also changes the TRG chassis from a round bedding surface to a "V" bedding surface, and includes a catch extender.
Resale Value: usually around MSRP give or take
Yuns fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2013 around 17:22
|# ? Mar 23, 2013 16:24|
Savage Mark II F
(Admiralty Disruptive Pattern "Q" is not currently a factory option.)
Type: bolt action rimfire rifle
Caliber: .22 Long Rifle
Capacity: 5 or 10 round detachable box magazine
Weight: 5 lb
Length: 39.75 in
Barrel Length: 21 in
Stock: black plastic
Availability: sold at Wal-Mart and any decent LGS
Pricing: $200-$500 depending on features
Your Review: The Mark II is part of a line of .17 and .22 rifles manufactured at the former Lakefield Arms plant in Ontario. They can be had with left-hand bolts, target sights or optics only, heavy barrels, threaded muzzles, and a bewildering variety of stocks. TFR likes them. The F is one of the basic models, having a plastic stock, standard profile barrel and iron sights. It does feature the adjustable AccuTrigger and the receiver is drilled and tapped for optics mounting.
Reliability: I've only used Federal 36-grain HV bulk ammo thus far, but the rifle and its two magazines have been absolutely reliable.
Accuracy: The F model comes with basic notch-and-post iron sights, identical to what you can find on .22s made a hundred years ago. They're adequate for plinking, but I'd recommend either one of the aperture sighted models or mounting optics for precise shooting. I put a rail on this rifle soon after I bought it, which currently hosts a Bushnell TRS-25 red dot. I've shot consistent groups with it at 100 yards.
Fit/Finish: The F model, like most of the Mark II line, has a glossy blued finish. A few flavors come in stainless steel, and magazines can be either type. The fit is functional but not fancy. As delivered, the stock on mine had very prominent molding lines all along its length.
Ergos/Comfort: I have no particular complaints about the Mark II, though I'm not fussy about ergonomics in general. I do much prefer this rifle's safety and magazine catch over those of the Ruger 10/22, and find the single-stack magazines easier to load and handle than the Ruger's rotary type.
Usage: The F is a jack-of-all rifle, good enough for plinking, casual target shooting or pest control. Other models are more specialized for particular purposes. I use mine for practice and relaxation.
Aftermarket: Slings, various optics, bipods and replacement stocks, plus suppressors or muzzle brakes for the threaded models.
Resale Value: Prices on Gunbroker are all over the board right now.
|# ? Mar 23, 2013 18:06|
Type: Rifle, TacticAHAHAHAHAHA
Capacity: 5+1 with supplied magazine but can take any AR mag.
Weight: ~ 8 lbs unloaded
Barrel Length: 16"
Availability: Still made but no one stocks them and they don't pop up used terribly often. So, by order.
Pricing: $750-900 used pre-panic and about $1,000-1,100 new
My Review: Want a working rifle? Get an AR/AK/Vz. 58/SCAR. Want something wonky and different for a fun gun that can be used as a general use rifle? These are worth a look. Think of them as another take on the Mini-14 "ranch rifle" concept with a hilarious ratchety racket to field-strip and they are nice rifles. Extra points for some Italian deciding that while the A.R.G.O. system makes for a nice shotgun, it really should be shoved into the heart of an EBR.
The rail is a joke with almost any optics, but works slick with a Micro Aimpoint in its lowest mount. The old style small rear sight was also a joke for anything but well-lit target shooting, but thebigger one they ship with these days is a very nice large aperture.
Oh, and the trigger is a dream
Reliability: Minimum handloads, factory reloads, a handful of steel-cased poo poo buried in the back of the ammo cabinet for years, Federal frangible, some Remington soft points, dry, lubed, dirty, clean, It has worked perfectly through about 1,500 rounds beyond a couple lovely mags. Mine had the old-style bolt handle that chipped a corner but still worked fine and Benelli sent me a new style handle for free that has radiused corners that seem to do the trick.
Accuracy: With good ammo, you can get down to M.O.A. if you are a better rifleman than me. The trigger will not hold you back, it is a great two-stage with a light and crisp release.
Fit/Finish: Tight and smooth.
Ergos/Comfort: Comfortable for people kicking around 6' but a bit long for shorter folk. Well balanced, but a bit hefty as you would expect from its shotgun pedigree. The handguard and pistol grip are as comfortable as all get-out. Lefties need not apply and no one-handed mag drops. Very light recoil despite lack of muzzle device in U.S. models.
Usage: Intended for home-defense, it would serve the purpose fine and I wouldn't hesitate to take it to the field to shoot little furry things. Makes for a really fun range toy.
Aftermarket: Expensive plastic tri-rail and a thinner buttpad. If you live out of the U.S. and have no 922(r) bullshit to deal with, you can mount an adjustable stock and thred for muzzle devices. Californians could get the non-pistol-gripped stock and I am sorry they have to consider it.
Resale Value: $750-850 if you haven't beaten the crap out of yours like I have mine.
Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2013 around 18:27
|# ? Mar 23, 2013 18:24|
|# ? May 19, 2013 13:08|
Type: semi-automatic battle rifle
Capacity: 8 rounds
Weight: About 10 lbs, unloaded
Barrel Length: 24"
Availability: Fairly common, especially if you are willing to hit up Gunbroker. If you have some patience the CMP has a good supply of them for a very good price.
Pricing: $600-2000+ depending on condition, manufacturer, how "matching" it is, etc. If you just want a good shooter a Service Grade from the CMP is about $700, and the same rifle on Gunbroker will run about $900-ish.
Your Review: I don't think guns come much more iconic than this. The primary American small arm from the mid 1930s through the mid 1950s, this is the gun that defeated Hitler, Hirohito, and fought the North Koreans and Chinese to a stalemate. Even after it was replaced in front line units by the M14 (which, much to its credit, is basically a re-working of the Garand in a somewhat more modern package) it continued on in the hands of National Guard units and service members not expected to engage in direct combat (Naval uses, military police, etc) for decades beyond. Firing the robust .30-06 cartridge, this gun has been popular with both target shooters and hunters as well and continues to live an active life as a competition rifle. Even 80 years after the first ones were produced, it remains a very shootable rifle. The only real major shortcomings it has today are its reliance on en-bloc clips and its sensitivity to more modern, higher pressure commercial loads. The former problem is quickly solved by the ready availability of cheap en-bloc clips, both new production and antique. Every Garand shooter should probably own about ten of these. While loading loose ammo into them is a skill in and of itself, it is one that is fairly quickly learned and no more onerous than loading magazines. The problem with new production ammo can be solved either by only shooting ammo loaded to the M2 ball specifications that the gun was designed around or by buying an adjustable gas plug that will safely allow more robust loads to be used.
Reliability: Assuming that the gun is in good mechanical shape, it is excellent. That said, even the newest examples of these were made in the 50s. Most reliability problems come about because of worn internal parts. The clip latch, which holds the en-bloc in place while the gun is being shot, is a particularly wear-prone bit and one of the more frequently replaced parts. As with any 50+ year old semi-automatic firearms replacing the springs with new ones is probably a wise investment. That said, when in good operating condition they are very hard to mess up. I have about 2000 rounds through various M1's, and the only reliability issues I ever experienced were due to a worn clip latch that was quickly replaced by myself.
Accuracy: Again, 60+ year old rifle. The acceptance standard during their production was 5 rounds on a target about the size of a modern CD at 100 yards. This boils down to about 3-5 MOA. Many examples are naturally more accurate than this, especially with good handloads, and there is a long tradition of accurizing the M1 to get down to about 1 MOA. Understand that it is a semi-automatic battle rifle and not a bolt action sniper rifle and accuracy should not disappoint.
Fit/Finish: Generally very good. Some manufacturers, especially Winchester, were known for having a bit rougher finishes, especially on internal surfaces. It's a military gun, not a civilian safe queen. The guns were originally parkerized, but the parkerization was of high quality and relatively thick and evenly applied.
Ergos/Comfort: Surprisingly good for a gun of its era. This was one of the first major military designs to feature a safety that was located near the shooter's finger, in this case right inside the trigger guard. It can be a bit hard to actuate if the springs are stiff, but not so much that it's a major impediment. The charging handle is on the right side of the weapon, something that many consider a faux pas today but which was completely normal on firearms for most of the 20th century. It points well and the sights are excellent for a combat arm, featuring a rear receiver mounted peep that gives an incredible sight radius. It recoils very gently for a gun chambered in a full sized rifle cartridge. This combination of factors make for a gun that is quite easy to shoot well. I find that new shooters in particular find it very confidence boosting, precisely because of its ease of operation and natural pointing characteristics.
Usage: The US military, half of the free world. We gave these things out like candy during the cold war. Today mostly collectors, target shooters, and the odd hunter.
Aftermarket: The standard grab bag of military surplus doodads. Bayonets, slings, cartridge belts, etc. There is also a pistol gripped, aluminum, railed monstrosity on the market that is a drop-in modification with no gunsmithing required if you want to have an appropriate weapon for killing Space Nazis.
Resale Value: Don't gently caress it up by doing something stupid and don't buy one for way more than it's worth and you'll be able to get your money back out. Doubly so if you take advantage of the CMP to get one on the cheap. One of the good things about milsurp is that you don't have to take that initial depreciation hit from buying new.
Final words: Everybody loves a Garand. If you have any interest in history, video games, or just cool old poo poo firing one just generates a goofy grin. They're like well-maintained classic cars: sure you know there are disadvantages, and yeah your every day driver is some Honda econo box, but goddamn if it isn't just FUN to take one out and stretch its legs a bit.
Rating (out of 10): *BLAM**BLAM**BLAM**BLAM**BLAM**BLAM**BLAM**BLAM**PING*
Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2013 around 18:34
|# ? Mar 23, 2013 18:31|