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Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!

Card games often have some kind of combination that, intentionally or not, allows players to do something much stronger than anything one card could do. Some of these practical effects have been strong enough to win tournaments, others involve trying to put a baseball card or the two of clubs into play. There's a thread for strange rules in tabletop games, and at the request of a few posters there I'm creating a thread for strange rules and interactions in trading card games. Here are all the posts about odd TCG rules from the Murphy's Rules thread:

yaoi prophet posted:

Magic rules can be really fun.

Dominating Licid doesn't work. The reason why is sort of weird, but it boils down to this: the 'you control enchanted creature' effect tries to take place before the 'this is an enchantment' effect, and the rules say that 'enchanted creature' on a thing isn't an enchantment doesn't refer to anything. So it winds up being an enchantment that does nothing. All the other licids work, and the rules manager doesn't feel like figuring out how to reword it since it'd be clunky as poo poo. Plus everybody plays it the 'right way' anyway.

Normally, you can't put something like Pacifism onto a creature with shroud (can't be targeted), since you have to target the creature when you cast Pacifism. However, if you put Pacifism into play without casting it (Academy Rector, a flicker effect, etc.), it was never 'cast', so you can just slap it on that shroud creature.

An enchantment that is also an equipment (via Enchanted Evening or Bludgeon Brawl + Mycosynth Lattice or whatever) becomes enchanted on whatever creature it equips (and vice-versa). So if you equip it onto a target that it can't legally enchant (for example, if it has 'enchant creature you control' and you somehow attach it to a creature you don't control), it falls off as a result of enchanting an illegal target and goes to the graveyard.

There's a card called Steamflogger Boss that has the text "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it assembles two Contraptions instead." There are no cards with type Contraption, and 'assemble' has no in-game meaning. They put it in their 'preview' set entirely to gently caress with people. They did, however, go back and errata Moriok Rigger to have type Rigger.

Jedit posted:

Back to card games, here's an old favourite of mine from Doomtown, the Deadlands CCG.

As you may or may not know, the Deadlands setting is California with zombies and magic. One of these zombies, the Harrowed, is the ghost of Abraham Lincoln. He appears as a Dude card in Doomtown. Doomtown also has a number of cards representing mounts. Some of these are real horses, others are steampunk devices called Gadgets. There's also the Penny Farthing, which is not a gadget. For the purposes of the rules, all mount cards have the Horse keyword. So, how are these two things connected? The answer is a third card, an Action card called Tastes Like Chicken. This card allows you to boot (tap, Magic fans) a Harrowed Dude to remove a non-Gadget Horse from the game.

In other words, you can make Abraham Lincoln eat a bicycle.

Also, in Advanced Civilization there are no prerequisites for the Monotheism tech, so it is possible to start worshipping the one true God without ever having developed a belief in the supernatural. Militant atheism, anyone?

Zemyla posted:

D&D 3.5 and Magic both have infinite combos by the dozens. Pun-Pun's just one of the D&D ones, and even as recently as Scars block, combo decks like Exarch Twin have brought the pain in Standard.

However, in both D&D and Magic, people have decided to come up with the largest amount of damage you can deal without it being infinite. The difference being with an infinite combo, you can deal any amount of damage you want, whereas with these, you can only deal up to a certain non-infinite amount.

These are both exceedingly hard to describe, but are fortunately described on separate webpages.

The D&D combo uses multiple fate link loops, cloning using the Wu Jen spell body outside body, symbiotes from Magic of Eberron by the hundreds and thousands (all cloned by body outside body as well), and just using the Mental Resistance feat to make sure it doesn't go infinite. Its damage winds up being (2.5*10^36530)^^73600, where x^^y is x^(x^(x^...^x)), where there are y xs. The base number is much larger than the number of particles in the universe, and with the number of tetrations it undergoes, it quickly becomes unimaginably large.

The Magic combo, on the other hand, uses many token copies of Doubling Season, Mirari, Rings of Brighthearth, and many other cards coming together to form a series of loops that can't be infinite, since each loop element can reset only smaller loop elements, not larger ones.

Each loop layer adds one or more ^s to the final expression, giving the final result of 2^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^30 damage, a number that dwarfs the first one the way the first one dwarfs the money in your pocket.

Idran posted:

Well, if we're going to get fancy here, let's get really fancy. Magic the Gathering is Turing complete. That is, it's possible to implement a two-state Turing machine in Magic that uses nothing but in-game mechanics, without modifying the rules of Magic. (Though it would probably be fairly difficult to set up in-play. )

Glagha posted:

Well, this one is old and well known and not all that amazing but it's one of those goofy rules things that bears mentioning in this thread.

You see this guy? You see the abilities he has? For one, note that this bird for some reason has the ability to prevent healing, and guarantee that a dead creature will never return to life. That's not the important part though. Notice what it can't do?


Magic has a few keyworded abilities, one of which is Flying, which for non-magic players out there means the creature can't be defended against by non-flying creatures. This bird, which is known to fly, can't. Not only that, but it's seen flying in the card art! So yeah, turns out whippoorwills can't fly.

Chamale posted:

I've tried to avoid the bizarre things that can happen through elaborate schemes in Magic (even other Magic players just stare blankly when I explain some of the tricks), but there are some great little errors in communicating between the card designers and their artists. The most famous of which is this:

A lemure is a vengeful spirit of the dead. A lemur is a cute primate that lives in Madagascar. The artist drew a lemur, and with the print deadline approaching the editors had no choice but to add claws and wings to his illustration.

Alchor was a powerful wizard living in the world of the Legends expansion. Unfortunately, the artist misread "Alchor's Tome" as "Alchor's Tomb" and drew a grave. Wizards of the Coast didn't have time to commission new art before the print deadline, so they killed Alchor off in order to keep his tomb in the set.

Note that these mistakes happened a long time ago. Nowadays the designers are much more careful to communicate clearly with the artists, although we occasionally get homages to old mistakes.

Joeslop posted:

Are we on to Magic now? I don't remember a lot of the cool things since I haven't played in a while but here, let's see how the rules on cards have changed over the years!

These are all the same card, the rules text all means the exact same thing.

Living Lands Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited





Chamale posted:

OK, here we go.

To play spells in Magic, you usually have to pay for them with mana, generated by using some kind of mana ability. Island has a mana ability, Black Lotus has a mana ability, Vault Skirge has a mana ability. In 1997 Dave Mills was disqualified from the finals of Pro Tour Los Angeles for playing spells and then using mana abilities, a common practice. This led to history's only Magic riot, as a group of neckbeards stormed the stage during the award ceremony and demanded justice for Mills. The judges relented and gave Mills a second-place prize, also changing the rules so that it became legal to activate a mana ability while paying costs. Now the rules say that a player can't do anything in response to a mana ability, so nothing can disrupt a mana ability once started.

This brings us to Caged Sun, a card that doesn't work. All mana abilities are activated (pay [cost]: do [effect]) except for Caged Sun, which is triggered (when [trigger], then [effect]). A ruling says that Caged Sun has a mana ability anyway, otherwise this would create some awkwardness when playing spells with Caged Sun in play. So Caged Sun has a mana ability that adds mana to your mana pool whenever a land adds mana to your mana pool. The rules break down when Caged Sun itself becomes a land, which we accomplish by playing a few cards.

March of the Machines makes all artifacts into creatures, so Caged Sun is an artifact creature.
Xenograft makes all your creatures a chosen creature type, so Caged Sun can become an artifact creature - Saproling.
Life and Limb makes all Saprolings into lands, so Caged Sun is now an "Artifact Creature Land - Saproling Forest".

Caged Sun now has a mana ability that effectively reads "Whenever Caged Sun adds mana to your mana pool, add one mana of that colour to your mana pool." Neither player is allowed to do anything until this loop completes, so the players sit there helplessly as the game repeats itself. At this point the game is officially a draw.

Caged Sun is a fun example of the problems caused by type changing effects, and also the dangers of infinite loops. An infamous type change problem comes from Humility and Opalescence, which causes Humility to lose the ability that causes it to lose all abilities. Another infinite loop involves three copies of Oblivion Ring with no other targets. With one ring exiling another, the third ring comes into play and exiles one of them. The new ring exiles another, and if there's nothing else in play they loop around forever. One of the game's best players created this loop in an online tournament just to see what would happen - video.

There are other ways to break the rules of Magic for fun and (not much) profit, which I'll post about later because I'm busy.

Chamale posted:

I like the stuff about individual Magic cards, keep them coming! My wheelhouse is still on the very complicated combinations, so I'll keep them coming.

Korlash, Heir to Blackblade and other "Grandeur" cards has an ability that involves discarding more copies of cards with the same name. However, it's possible to discard Korlash to himself. With Suppression Field in play, his ability costs mana and a discard to activate. Activate a Words of Wind, then announce Korlash's ability. Use a Chromatic Sphere's mana ability to pay for Korlash - remember, players can't respond to mana abilities, and they can be activated while paying for costs. While paying for Korlash's ability (which costs "2, discard a card named Korlash, Heir to Blackblade), activate Chromatic Sphere, replace the draw by returning Korlash to your hand, and then discard the card you just returned to your hand to finish paying the cost.

It's possible to temporarily dip below 0 life while using mana abilities to pay for something. For example, with an active Words of Worship, you can activate Tarnished Citadel and Chromatic Sphere to pay for a spell - perhaps Barren Glory - and temporarily go below 0 life until the Words replaces the draw to put you back into safe territory. A player doesn't lose if they're only dead in between the checks on state-based effects.

Because of the nature of mana abilities, Chromatic Sphere leads to many odd situations. If I control one plus a way to feed it mana, a Thought Lash, and a Laboratory Maniac, I can win the game without ever giving my opponent a chance to respond. Unlike the other comboes listed, this one is good enough that I've won small Legacy tournaments with it, and I've had no end of entertaining judge calls.

Ariamaki posted:

And speaking of damage issues, let's talk about Lifelink for a moment: I promise I'll dredge up some non-Magic stuff for future posts, but I wanted to stay on-topic with myself.

Lifelink is a static ability a creature can have in the rules that is pretty intuitive: When this creature harms things, you get the life they functionally "stole". However, there are quite a few older cards that have an ability that is almost, but not quite, the same. Compare and contrast:

Whenever enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life.
Damage dealt by the creature also causes (its controller) to gain that much life

The bottom one is the current reminder text for Lifelink, the top is the slightly-different ability from cards like the ever-so-awesome Armadillo Cloak.

So, what's the difference, exactly? Why not just keyword them both to the same abiity?
1- They don't stack with themselves, but DO stack with each other.
2- If I put an Armadillo Cloak on your creature, -I- get the life when it hits me.
3- If I were to simultaneously receive enough damage to kill me, but also gain enough Lifelink life to survive (a common combat situation), I would, in fact, survive- As a static effect, Lifelink happens simultaneously with the damage that caused it. Armadillo Cloak's ability triggers too late to save me, as the game will check my life between damage and the Cloak going off.

GottaPayDaTrollToll posted:

The Star Trek CCG had this wonderful card:

The card isn't very clearly worded, so here's how it works: you declare that something was cool, and your opponent can either agree that it was cool and give you five points, or they can argue that it, in fact, wasn't cool at all, in which case you get to play an Event card. You can also use it to counter another Parallax Arguers card. According to the official rules, you're not supposed to take this card too seriously.

Kurieg posted:

Here's a story from a game I was watching during a Bye at Friday Night Magic a few months ago, seems like this is the place to put it.

One guy was playing a deck that had a bunch of enchantments and multiple copies of Sphere of Safety keeping the cost of X way above the amount of mana his opponent could ever play.
His opponent had out three Primordial Hydras and three Corpsejack Menaces, meaning that at the beginning of his upkeep his hydras added eight times their current number of +1/+1 counters to their total. The enchantment guy didn't have any way to actually kill his hydras, and neither the doubling effect of the Hydra or the multiplication of the Corpsejack are optional.

We were using d20s and d10s to keep track of the numbers of counters on the hydras up until about the hundreds of thousands, after that point we just kept track of the number they were at and put a pip mark on the sheet every time his upkeep came around, so we could do the math later. Enchantment dude was unable to actually kill Hydra guy outright because Sphere of Safety doesn't prevent his creatures from blocking, and an a Hydra is going to kill anything he tries to attack with, except flyers. Which was apparently his win condition, lock down your opponent and slowly plink them to death, but when you play Sheltering Word on an arbitrarily large creature that ceases to be an option.
So it became a hilarious arms race as enchantment guy tried to play more and more enchantments while the Hydra guy desperately tried to get some kind of enchantment removal or enough mana to pay for the Spheres.

By the time he was finally able to attack it was for 45,753,583,909,922 damage

SystemLogoff posted:

Oh, this sounds like a fun time to talk about Yugioh. Let's look at a few random banned cards!

(Easy targets today.)

Put this card in your deck, get two cards free when you draw it. It's a free +1 hand advantage. Needless to say it's been on the ban list forever.

Fear the bird. When it attacks and does life damage, it stops your opponent from drawing a card during the draw phase. If you take the time to set things up, you can stop your opponent from doing anything and keep playing with them as long as you want.

Next time: Strange banned interactions.

Lottery of Babylon posted:

Probably because it forces everyone to buy three copies of it for each of their decks and waste 3/40 of their deck slots on it or be punished. And in terms of gameplay it just gives random players bonuses for drawing it (almost nothing can search it, and there's no resource system so there's never a reason not to play it). And doesn't add anything positive to the game to make up for that.

In a game with a lot of weird rules, here's possibly the oddest:

Pretty straightforward effect, right? A lot of effects, particularly summoning strong monsters, require you to sacrifice a monster you already have in play to use. So you should be able to sacrifice this guy to summon a monster and draw a card, right?

Wrong. That's how it would work if the effect said "You draw a card." But instead it says "You may draw a card." If you were required to draw a card, you'd draw it, but because the card makes it optional, you're actually not allowed to - because of the way the timing rules work, if you sacrifice it as part of a cost, you don't get a chance to make the choice to draw a card, so you just never get to draw one. The effect being optional instead of mandatory makes the effect unusable.

The rule is called "Missing the Timing" and is not implied anywhere by any card text.

SystemLogoff posted:

It's Yugioh time again.

So, Yugioh is not quite like Magic, there are very few cards that tell a narrative. So, you often see sets of cards with a theme or that do something. However, quite a few Yugioh cards can have fun interactions when stacked. So, I'm going to post a theme of equip cards*, I want you to guess which one is banned.

The answer is:

Now, you may be wondering why. I mean, it seems harmless right? Well, the thing to remember is that in Yugioh, unless a card notes that it has a cost, you can play it as much as you like. The only thing that limits you is 5 Monster Zones, and 5 Magic/Trap Zones. (Monster's have some special rules if they have 5 or more levels, but that's not important right now.)

So, here is a few lovey interactions with that Dagger.

Infinite Doll Murder

Bring out Gearfried the Iron Knight and Magical Marionette though any way you care to use. Once they are on the field, you can play Butterfly Dagger - Elma on Gearfried the Iron Knight an infinite amount of times, giving Magical Marionette a Token/Spell Counter that boosts attack by 200 each time. You now have a monster that has X attack power, where X is how many times you repeated the loop. You can then attack your opponent and murder them.** If your opponent has monsters, you can spend 2 counters to destroy them one at a time.

Infinite Life Burn

Bring out Fire Princess and Gearfried the Iron Knight through any method you like. Then play Spell Absorption. You can then play Butterfly Dagger - Elma on Gearfried the Iron Knight an infinite amount of times, giving you infinte life points, and doing infinite damage to your opponent.

There are tons more ways to build with Gearfried the Iron Knight and Butterfly Dagger - Elma to hurt someone. So the card was banned and another of it's like was never made. Surely it was a forbidden arm.

* Equip cards stay on the field in a Magic/Trap zone, and provide an effect while they are active.
** Attack to life points work by attacking directly (your opponent has no monsters) or choosing to attack a monster that was left in attack position. Your opponent can not choose the monsters to 'block' like in magic.

lighttigersoul posted:

Since Yu-Gi-Oh! keeps coming up, how about I talk about a little known tournament rule, and the deck designed to abuse it. (Also known as how I managed to burn out my ability to think in five and a half rounds.)

In Yu-Gi-Oh!'s tournament rules, a match was not finished until time, or one player or the other had two wins. Sounds pretty typical right?

Enter Last Turn.

This card is far from simple, but short version is, you play it on your opponent's turn when you have 1000 or less life points. Pick one of your monsters, it stays, everything else (including both players hands) are destroyed. Your opponent searches their deck for a monster, summon it, and attacks your monster. The only player with a monster at the end of the turn wins. All other situations result in a draw.

Complicated as hell, and seems like one of those 'why would you play this?' types of cards.

Jowgen the Spiritualist and Last Warrior from Another Planet

In the competitive deck, Jowgen is preferred due to being easier to get out, but both of these monsters share an effect: They prevent Special Summons. Last Turn Special Summons a monster for your opponent. So get one on the field and flip Last Turn, your opponent loses.

If the world were this simple, the deck would be unbeatable. Thankfully, it's not. For one thing, you need 1000 life or less to be able to pull this off. Beyond that, there's more than one way to stop Last Turn from handing you a win. Like activating a card to kill Jowgen, or countering Last Turn.

The answer to the life total problem is pretty easy. The Wall of Revealing Light. Pay 1000*x life, monsters of that Attack or less can't attack. You can now win on your opponent's first turn, if you went first.

Draw your five cards, set Last Turn and Wall of Revealing Light, then summon Jowgen. As soon as they draw their card, activate Wall of Light for 7000 life, then activate last turn. There were very few outs that could get you out of this combo.

Obviously, the odds of pulling off a turn one win are slim, so what do you do for the inevitable times your opponent is prepared for your combo? Why, have a secondary win condition of course. Or, in this case, a draw condition. Remember the rule I cited? The match continues until a player has two wins. If you're going to lose and intentionally draw the game, the match continues. So how did you do that?

Man-Eater Bug.

Here's the response to them destroying your Jowgen. Man-Eater wasn't the only monster that punished your opponent for destroying your monster, and so you ran multiples of each. Any way to force both monsters to die during Last Turn. But this wasn't the ultimate 'stop'. There was one more. One that was much better than any of the monsters, because it was as fast as Last Turn:

Self-Destruct Button.

It can only be activated when your opponent has at least 7000 more life than you, and it's only effect is to create a draw. Convenient that life total difference, don't you think?

So how did this drive me slowly insane? A typical round, played without this degeneracy, lasts a maximum of 3 games. Over the course of a typical regional event, you have about 13 rounds. Because Last Turn could force draws, though, you could end up playing many more games during a round. In my case, I had played 35 games before receiving my second round loss in round six. That's a minimum of twelve rounds of play I effectively ran through in the course of that tournament. After my second loss, I dropped and went to take a judge test instead. God I wasted my life on this game.

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

They named some older cards Guardian that weren't part of the Guardian theme. The Guardians have a tutor. Rather than let the player tutor lovely normal creatures:

Lottery of Babylon posted:

"Cannot defend" is actually another dysfunctional Yugioh mechanic.

Combat in Yugioh is very different from combat in Magic; specifically, it puts a lot more power in the hands of the attacker. The attacker attacks with one monster at a time, and when a monster attacks, the attacker chooses which monster it's attacking. It can only attack the opponent directly if the opponent has no monsters.

There are several effects that make a monster unable to be targeted by attacks. If every monster you control is unable to be targeted by attacks, can your opponent attack you directly? The answer is... maybe. It depends on exactly which attack-proof monsters you have.

"...your opponent cannot select it [this card] as an attack target" and "Your opponent cannot select this card as an attack target" don't mean the same thing. If your opponent's only remaining monster is Legendary Fisherman (with Umi in play), then you're allowed to attack directly - but if the only remaining monster is Ccapac Apu, you're not. The card text is identical, but the effects are completely different, and there's no way to know that without memorizing arbitrary rulings.

Yugioh is full of things like that. "This card cannot be Special Summoned except by [method]" and "This card can only be Special Summoned by [method]" are two completely different conditions with two completely different sets of rules.

palecur posted:

Vampire: the Eternal Struggle is a good trading-card game, and one with a very elegant solution to the common multiplayer game failure mode of 'everyone dogpile on whoever looks like they're ahead'. Everyone brings one victory point to the table. The player to your right is your predator, and the player to your left is your prey. You can only get a victory point by defeating your prey. If you kill off a guy 2 seats downstream, you get gently caress-all, and the guy upstream from him gets a victory point and bonus prizes. You don't want that to happen -- table management in a V:tES game is pretty important, you want everyone to be just weak enough that you can knock them out in a row, but not so weak one of the other chumps gets to bump them off.

But that's besides the point. The point is that the original release of the game had some questionably thought out designs. By and large, the errors were on the underpowered side, especially when it came to mid- and high-capacity vampire minions, but then there was the Monocle of Clarity:

It lets you ask a player a question, and that question can be about the future, and since in the game fiction the monocle lets you see the future, the answer is binding. It didn't take long before someone came up with the following logic trap:

For the 10th anniversary reissue of the game, they reprinted it in a substantially less insane form:

ZeeToo posted:

Geez, so much Decipher, and not a word yet about Decipher Star Wars CCG? Let's rectify that.

Okay... to be honest, it's been forever and I threw out my cards ages ago. But, recall, this is by the same mental giants who made that Star Trek game we've already discussed.

So, the game was largely broken. It embraced a principle that absolutely everything is the cards. No tracking outside numbers, no tokens, nothing. The cards it is. Because of this, deck sizes got very specific: 60 cards, not one over or under. It's your life total, after all. Lose the cards from their proper place, and you lose.

Oh, but it wasn't just the life total. It was also your random number generator. Each card had a number it counted as for 'rolling dice' purposes, usually 0-7 (with a few weird things like a smart alien whose number is pi, for instance). Better cards? Lower numbers. So stuffing your deck with the rares with awesome effects kinda screwed you over. Because I'm sure you love to have to drop your good (expensive, rare) cards for ones that aren't natural 1s. Except in serious play this didn't happen because you'd gum up the system by setting it up so you only ever drew one, single card over and over for your 'random' numbers. Hooray for loading the dice!

Your life was measured by a series of three decks, with cards moving from one to another in response to your accumulated mana-equivalent total, damage, exhaustion, random number generation, and more. You got cards for your hand by drawing from this. So you lowered your life total every time you drew a card. And a lot of the time, you needed a hell of a lot of specific cards, so it was quite common to see a "hand" that was half your total deck. This was eventually fixed in the 'revised' game. Not by ruling that you could just put your hand back into the main pool. No, they added a card to do that. So now you had 35 card hands that eventually dropped to 4 card hands when you finally drew the "put it back" card. If you got unlucky and didn't draw it? Screw you.

A lot of common cards had effects specifically for Luke Skywalker or Chewie or whatever. These cards were rare. So you'd pick up booster packs and get a lot of buffed options for cards you might not see any time soon.

Combat was utterly insane. Weapons were separate from characters or spaceships. And, recall, sixty card decks. So if you wanted to arm your X-Wing, you needed to draw the X-Wing, then draw its weapon, and then pay separately to get them both on the field. And that's a big chunk of your deck. So, hey, don't add weapons. Just have a fight where neither side is technically armed! Yes, you could do this. Each side adds up a certain number and then the other suffers "attrition" until they reach it. Even if the other side has a weapon. So you have a stormtrooper that you've somehow given a lightsaber to, and he's ready to fight some Rebel character who was on screen for almost two seconds in RotJ, so she's a mid-range character. He actually manages to hit and kill the named character, and then he just dies from the 'attrition'. Unarmed single fighters could do this same trick on armed capital ships, too.

Luckily, there was no reason to ever suspect you'd fight. You hurt enemies by hanging around in places that empowered him with a (probably unarmed, of course) character. So you'd see something like a Rebel Alliance player hanging around on Endor doing nothing until the Empire dies, while the Empire is hanging around on Hoth until the Alliance dies, and hoping to get there first. Neither one spends much effort to stymy the other.

You might see a deck based entirely around deploying spaceships in orbit around Alderaan 'fighting' one that just has people hang out in the cantina. In theory you could have whole combos that involved something like Darth Vader going to Tattooine and having his troopers search for rebels there, but it would be a massive thing that you built your deck around. Traveling in spaceships and then coming out of them, I mean. That's a deck.

If the card investment isn't big enough for you yet, some ships didn't come automatically piloted, so you'd need to add one or even two pilots to the ship to get it to go forward. Oh, and some characters didn't have piloting skills, so let's add in a card to teach that! Whoo, we've got a whole deck based around "crewing the Millennium Falcon".

I am not even scratching the surface. The game was a monstrosity of elegance gone wrong, with your deck representing everything and letting you do all the Star Wars things, from blowing up the Death Star to undergoing Jedi training, but in practice it was a loving mess that took all your resources to do anything and it was a bad strategy, anyway. And it's been so long I'm probably forgetting half the fundamental flaws!

Chorocojo posted:

So the MTG rules now are pretty . . . graspable. If you know the basics you can figure out most interactions. To cast a spell, you announce it, pay the costs, it goes on the stack. If you have nothing your opponent has a chance to respond, if nothing hey there you go you're a wizard.

But would you like to see how it used to be?

Happy wizarding!

Alien Rope Burn posted:

A little side thought stemming from my ongoing F&F writeup of Way of the Scorpion.

The original set of Legend of the Five Rings CCG had this card: Bayushi Kachiko.

Kachiko is a "seductress" and has the ability to seduce (and poison) any personality in the game. Most of the time, this is samurai and wizards, and makes some sense. Other times...


Kachiko can seduce this vampire ghost and poison it.

Okay, not too weird, though?

Let's move to the next stage.


Here's a god-dragon made entirely of fire. Kachiko can seduce it, too! And poison it!

We can get weirder, though.


See this immense siege weapon covered in spikes? Kachiko can seduce that.


Kachiko can seduce herself. Not a copy of herself - she's unique - but literally seduce and murder her own person. But as a final footnote...

+ +

Alternately, you can use Shuten Doji (above) to have Bayushi Kachiko seduce and poison herself to create a feedback loop where the Shuten Doji can eat the poison, becoming infinitely strong given an infinite number of turns and keeping her from dying.

And this is just using cards from the original set and promos.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Here's another fun Legend of the Five Rings card for romantic shenanigans: Political Marriage.

Wow. The possibilities. Bear in mind the catch: only one of the personalities has to be human or Naga. The person playing the card doesn't have to play a human personality. Gender is not a factor.

"Suana, I know you're a monk and that you've sworn to a life in service of the fortunes, but it's important you marry..."


"... the Goblin Warmonger."

"Dear god, get it off me! Get it off!"

"May your marriage honor all of Rokugan."

"Aaaaaa! Its teeth have tinier teeth make it stop make it stop-"

The Lord of Hats posted:

Card type changes, you say? That sounds like a challenge!

Let's start with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

He's a very good planeswalker in the right deck, but that's not what we're interested in his -1, which turns an artifact into a creature, and more importantly does so permanently. First we'll use Liquimetal Coating on him, making him an artifact until end of turn. Now we'll use his own -1 ability on himself, making him a 5/5 Artifact Creature Planeswalker - Tezzeret. Just to make sure that the Artifact part sticks past the end of the turn, we'll make him wear some Silverskin Armor. Let's go a step further.

Equip Tezzeret with a Runed Stalactite. This gives him all creature types, but most important among these is the fact that one of these types is Saproling. That lets us play Life and Limb, which means that Tezzeret is now also a Land - Forest. So we've got:

Artifact Creature Planeswalker Land - Tezzeret Forest (and all creature types, which is way too much to type out). But we're not done yet.

Enchanted Evening turns all of our permanents into Enchantments. Prismatic Omen gives all of our lands all basic land types. We can even toss in Rimefeather Owl, to give him the Snow supertype. Sadly, the ways to make him Legendary conflict with other things we have going on, so we'll have to be satisfied with

Snow Artifact Creature Planeswalker Enchantment Land - Tezzeret Plains Island Swamp Mountain Forest, that also has all creature types (including such wonders as "Cat" and "Elk"). Sure, he dies to just about every form of removal under the sun, but I think we can all agree that it's worth it.

AgentAO posted:

There was something weird I came up with the other day in the vein of this.

On the table you have:
Cemetery Puca
Myr Welder
Any planeswalker, I prefer Jace.
Transmogrifying Licid, but that's in your graveyard
A way to sacrifice your creatures

So you can do the same as above, instead of using equipment however you use Mycosynth Lattice and March of the Machines to turn everything you control into a creature, and Conspiracy to turn everything into a Saproling. You can also add Leyline of Singularity for the hell of it. At this point Jace is a Legendary Snow Artifact Creature Planeswalker Enchantment Land - Jace Plains Island Swamp Mountain Forest, and everything else is that except for Planeswalker and Jace.

So first things first you sacrifice Myr Welder. Cemetery Puca sees that its going to the graveyard, and can be turned into a copy of it. You then tap the Puca that's now a copy of Welder to activate its ability, exiling the Licid from the graveyard and giving the Welder Puca the ability "{1}, {T}: Transmogrifying Licid loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. You may pay {1} to end this effect." At this point you need to untap the Welder Puca, so you can simply pass the turn. Once it untaps, you activate the Licid's ability. While this is on the stack, you sacrifice your Jace to the Altar. Because Puca doesn't care what the card becomes, only what it was, you can pay to turn the Welder Puca into a Jace Puca.

This isn't for long though. The Licid ability then resolves, and turns Jace into an aura. For a split second, you have a Legendary Snow Artifact Creature Planeswalker Enchantment Land - Jace Plains Island Swamp Mountain Forest Aura, which is probably nearly the most subtypes you can get on one card, before its promptly chucked into a graveyard because creatures can't attach to things, and unattached auras die immediately. Considering that the change only exists in the instant between the ability resolving and state based actions being checked, a time frame so short that players don't even get the chance to play spells, this essentially becomes the Magic equivalent of the Higgs Boson.

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

He's also a Mutant Ninja Turtle, an Anteater Advisor, Caribou Survivor, Starfish Minion, Citizen Sheep, Hippo Incarnation, Coward Pincher Pirate, a Weird Sponge, and a Rebel Squirrel.

E: Also a Germ Ally and a Flagbearer Mongoose and Serf Deserter Badger and an Elder Whale Wall.

Chorocojo posted:

So here's something else with that Liquimetal Coating card:

Liquimetal makes things into artifacts, sure. What can we do with artifacts?

Well, Bludgeon Brawl makes non-creature artifacts into Equipment. So you can just pick poo poo up and have your creatures beat things with a Big ol' book, or Walk-in Freezers or Airships. Sure. What else though.

This is Gideon. Gideon can become a creature for a turn and kick rear end on his own. He is kind of a muscle wizard for JUSTICE.

Liquimetal Coating works on planeswalkers, and since they aren't creatures, well.

I'm going to do something very wrong here:

Basically thanks to stupid amounts of mana thanks to what amount to CAGED. MOONS.

I made a bunch of things into equipment that really don't need to be picked up by anything or anyone.

Gideon is wielding, right now, as weapons:
-4 rings
-4 keys
-6 of his planeswalker buddies. (Artifact Planeswalker — Tamiyo Equipment, Tezzeret Equipment, etc.)
-2 moons.
-Pure magical radiation.
-the intangible magic that lets him do this

It results in him being a 53/7 Planeswalker Creature — Gideon Human Soldier.

Had I had more mana I'd have made him start picking up Tundras and poo poo for no tangible benefit whatsoever.


Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!

AJ_Impy posted:

Been a while since we brought up Magic oddities.

It's worth noting that if there isn't a stated quality, you have to find a target. If you're looking for '3 cards', you need to find them or run out of cards trying. But if you add in a stated quality, how can this be made use of? What benefit is there to not finding what you're looking for?

This card counts as fulfilling the 'stated quality' thing with its 'different names' clause. No matter what cards you have in your deck, you can just say "I can't find any cards in my deck that have different names... except for these two."

Your opponent then has to put the two cards in your graveyard, where you want them.

Now, something Magic makes a fairly strong distinction between are basic and nonbasic lands. Basic lands, you can have any number of in a deck, and they each have the basic land type corresponding to a given colour. Nonbasic lands you can only have up to four of in a deck, and they may or may not have types depending on the land. Just having a basic land type doesn't make a land basic, which means you can do such things as use Blood Moon to make all your opponent's nonbasic lands into hopefully-useless-to-him mountains, and then still get to kill him with them by using Price of Progress.

About 14-15 years ago, Wizards printed a cycle of cards where each colour got to remove a card type from the game, then search a player's hand and library for every other copy of that card in their deck. Red got the one dealing with lands:

Useless if your opponent is running a deck with only basic lands. On the other hand, if you could use it on basic lands, you could get rid of, say, up to twenty cards from their hand or library with one and make it impossible for them to draw more given a monocoloured deck.

Enter Splinter.

As an aside, if you really want to break the game, you can use Retraced Image with a Splinter token from Splintering Wind in play to put an instant onto the battlefield.

Anyway, if you want to completely spoil the day for someone playing a monocoloured deck running basic lands, then you could use Liquimetal coating to make one an artifact and Splinter it.

If you were feeling nice.

Mycosynth Lattice and Radiate let us get ridiculous with this. Everything is an artifact and thus a viable target for splinter. Radiate makes sure all those viable targets get hit. Since we control all the copies of the spell Radiate makes, we get to choose the order in which they go on the stack. Spells resolve on a last in, first out basis, so we target all our own permanents first, then the Mycosynth Lattice, then every single thing our opponent has on the battlefield.

Net result, we strip out every copy of what our opposite number has in play, all his lands, creatures, planeswalkers, whatever, and from his hand and in the rest of his deck. Then we take out the lattice, meaning all our stuff is no longer artifacts. We then fail to find any other copies of the lattice in our hand or library, and the radiated copies of splinter targeting our own permanents are countered because they no longer have a valid artifact target.

Splicer posted:

If anyone can remember the full combo that allowed you to attack the opposing player with the two of clubs I'd be greatly appreciative. I know it started with using [[url=[/url]]Death Wish[/url] to add a playing card to your hand but for the life of me I can't remember how you got it into play.

Chamale posted:

I guess you could use _____ and Retraced Image. In a world where you're allowed to play _____, you could also put into play Pokémon cards, baseball players, and other cards.

Ariamaki posted:

There are two problems with some of the Secret Lair stuff going around: They all ignore two key parts of the card. But those parts are, in and of themselves, pretty hilarious, and lead to rules interactions just as strange if not stranger.

1- Secret Lair does not say to play every card literally, it says to play it as written, ignoring all errata.
This means that the various "discard your hand" stuff doesn't work, but things like Floral Spuzzem's infinite delay of game does.

2- Errata written on cards is not actually errata.
MaRo made this one clear in the original FAQTIWDAWCC* and its sub-articles. This means that Cardboard Carapace and Ashnod's Coupon still work exactly as intended... To some extent.

Of course, this brings up my interesting rule for the post:

The Presence of 0 is Not the Absence of a Number

Now, since we're discussing the FAQTIWDAWCC anyways, let's go whole-hog and quote the great MaRo:

OK, so, makes sense so far. Any card is functionally any card with the same mana cost (Same exact mana cost, mind you: 2UU is not 3U or UUUU), or itself, but you can never do the same card twice (with a given copy of Richard).

Enter the Ornithopter:

It's a card with 0 mana cost! Oh man, does this mean that I can just randomly drop cards that don't have mana costs into play?

Nope! Having a 0 is very distinct from having nothing at all, and so despite having the same "cost" in all functional terms, not even Richard (and not even in his Secret Lair) can let you make this swap.

*-- (Frequently Asked Questions That If We Didn't Answer Would Cause Chaos)

yaoi prophet posted:

Speaking of Lotus cards!

The intent here was to make it so that when you play it, you have to sacrifice your lands immediately. So the turn you play it, you sacrifice two lands but get a source of three mana from the vale, meaning you're only up one net mana, and lose some of the flexibility (can't spend one and leave two untapped). It's still broken even in this form, since there are lots of effects that untap lands, you can recur with Crucible of Worlds, etc.

But that's not how it works as written. As written, you play it, the sacrifice trigger goes on the stack in response, and you can then tap it before it gets sacrificed. So it's basically a reprint of Black Lotus, the single most powerful card in the game, but with the small drawback that you can only crack it at sorcery speed.

Eventually, they changed it via Oracle to have the wording "If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard." It's one of the few incidences of a card's behavior being changed via Oracle.

Lone Goat posted:

Speaking of Chaos Orb, here's a fun trick you can do with your friends.

First, get a Chaos Orb into play.

Then, turn it into a creature. There are roughly a billion ways to do this, but let's just use a ghost to possess it for a bit. (Ghost not pictured)

Next, let's play Dance of Many to create a copy of the Chaos Orb creature. To represent the token, use your own human body.

Because the generated copy only copies the base statistics of the copied permanent, you (the token) are not a creature, and as such, you are not affected by summoning sickness.

Add one mana and tap yourself to activate your ability. Then, climb the top rope and do a Phoenix Splash onto the table. Make sure you rotate fully, and try to land on as many of your opponent's permanents as possible!

Alien Rope Burn posted:

No fancy card combination here, I just think this Legend of the Five Rings promo card from the olden days speaks for itself, for those who haven't seen it.

Lone Goat posted:

It might have been something to do with the font. They missed the circumflex on this handsome fellow. Twice! They figured it out eventually.

You think that's bad? Guess what the name of this card is. (There's a hint in the flavour text)

Answer: Ćrathi Berserker!

Early card templating was terrible. They put a bunch of letters instead of mana symbols on a couple cards. They transposed the power/toughness on a card. They forgot to put a casting cost on a card. They put the wrong art and border on a card. They even forgot to print a couple cards! (Circle of Protection: Black, Volcanic Island).

That the game managed to survives all those gaffes says a lot about its appeal.

Piell posted:

The How To Lose a Friend combination, presented without commentary.

Edit: made it crueler.

Piell posted:

Mycosynth Lattice turns all permanants (i.e. everything they've played that isn't in their graveyard) into artifacts. March of the machines turns all those artifacts into creatures. Then you sacrifice Mindslaver, which lets you play your opponents next turn. When it's their turn, play Mirrorweave - now all your enemies permanants (and yours as well) are Chaos Confetti. Now tear up all their cards.

CaptCommy posted:

Here's the worst version of that combo. All happens on your turn and hits everything besides instant/sorceries they might have:

Payndz posted:

Reading about Magic always seems to me like experiencing some form of aphasia. The words are all English, but they don't make any sense.

ChewyLSB posted:

The only thing is is that its using silver bordered cards, which are joke cards that wizards printed not meant for 'real' play.

Anyways, one of my favorite magic rules fuckery's is my favorite because its a situation that can happen in a real magic tournament because it involves two cards that are both actually played.

First up, we have brainstorm, which is actually quite a versatile and powerful card and is played a lot.

Pretty simple effect, draw three cards and then put two from your hand back on top of your library.

Then, you have another card which is played in legacy a bit, Sylvan Library.

For one thing, Sylvan Library has had a few changes in wording over the years. The version above reflects the most recent oracle text for the card, and its pretty simple when you read the card. Draw two extra cards during your draw step, and then of all the cards you've drawn this turn (normally, this would be three, as you have your normal draw step + the two extra from sylvan), you have to put two cards back on top of your library or pay four life for each of them to keep them in your hand. Another strong card that sees a decent amount of Legacy play.

However, these two cards interact in a weird way that isn't immediately apparent. If you have Sylvan Library on the battlefield, and then during your upkeep, Brainstorm, you have to call a judge over to resolve this part of the turn. This is because, normally, with brainstorm, you can put any two cards back from your hand on top of your library, it doesn't necessarily have to be the three cards you drew this turn. Because of this, it can be important for your opponent to not know whether you put a card back on top that you just drew or whether or not you already had it in your hand.

But then, later, when the Sylvan Library trigger happens, you draw two extra cards. Then, Sylvan Library lets you put any card that you drew this turn back on top of your library. Normally this wouldn't be a big deal because usually the cards you drew this turn are just the three that Sylvan Library drew you this turn. However, the cards you drew from Brainstorm also count as cards you drew this turn. So now suddenly it can't be clear whether or not a card you're putting back via Sylvan is a card you drew off brainstorm or not! Because of this, you have to call a judge over to watch your hand to make sure that you're not cheating, which is ridiculous.

And, if you really want to get ridiculous, you can add a third card, Chains of Mephistopheles.

This is one of the rare cards that almost functionally doesn't have a text box because the oracle text is so different from what's printed in the text box, but you do get the general gist of the card.

So, effectively, while this enchantment is in play, if a player would draw a card during his or her turn, they instead have to discard a card first, and then draw a card. If they have no cards in their hand (thus not having to discard), they put a card from the top of their library into their graveyard instead and don't draw a card. This card also doesn't apply to the first card drawn each turn, but only if that card was drawn during their draw step.

Got all that? Honestly this card by itself could be a post in this goddamn thread, because whenever this card is played, it for sure draws a judge call for the oracle text. It even sees a little bit of play, since it effectively 'counters' brainstorm, since brainstorm becomes Discard a Card, Draw a Card, Discard a Card, Draw a Card, Discard a Card, Draw a Card, put two back on top of your library.

Apparently though, at an SCG Open a week ago, there was an issue where literally no one on staff knew exactly how Sylvan Library functions with Chains of Mephistopheles. I'll leave that bit out for now, though.

Ultiville posted:

Another nice bit of Magic absurdity, this one potentially doable in a tournament game. Take this guy:

-He's a medium-sized creature with the Golem type
-When he comes into play, he brings two friends with him, also medium-sized Golem-type creatures
-Whenever any Golem-type creature gets targeted by a spell, a bunch of copies get made so that the spell targets every golem-type creature

He saw a bit of play - three medium-sized creatures for five mana is a good deal, but his third ability is mostly a down-side. If they have a spell that kills a target creature, it clears them all out. But, what if instead we target one of them with this card:

Assuming you have enough mana, this card lets you target a creature and make five copies of the creature. So, if we target a golem with this card, we get:

-Five copies of Precursor Golem (6 total)
-Ten of his Golem-token friends (from targeting the original golems he came with) (12 total)
-Ten additional golem-token friends (from the 5 copies of Precursor coming into play) (22 total)

Pretty cool, but we're just getting started. Let's take that board and cast Rite of Replication with kicker targeting a Golem again.

Precursor Golem's ability is what's called a triggered ability. That means that when the condition is met it triggers and does whatever it does. There's no restriction that each event only causes one trigger, even if they're identical triggers off of copies of the same card. So now, each of our six Precursor Golems copies the spell targeting every other Golem. So we end up with one Golem targeted by one Rite of Replication, and every other Golem in play targeted by six copies. Let's assume the initial target was one of the friends rather than an actual Precursor Golem:

-You copy one friend five times (total 27 friends)
-You copy 21 friends 30 times each (+630 friends, total 657)
-You copy each of the six Precursor Golems 30 times (+180 Precursors, total 186)
-Each of the 180 new Precursor Golems brings 2 friends (+360 friends, total 1017)

Since each of the creatures we've made has 3 power, we now have a little over 3500 power on the table. Given players start with 20 life, that's probably more than you'll ever need. We could of course cast a third Rite of Replication but that's just silly. Instead, let's take advantage of the fact that every creature Rite of Replication makes is a token creature to seriously boost our production:

Both of these cards double the number of creature tokens we make whenever we make creature tokens. These effects are exponential in Magic, not additive, so if we have two of these in play we get four times the creature tokens, and if we have three we get eight and so forth. Let's say we have three. Then when we play the original Precursor Golem we get 16 friends, and when we play the first Rite of Replication we get +40 Precursor Golems and +80 friends. Needless to say, the second Rite now creates some stupid numbers of Golems. But if we really want to boost our numbers through the roof, it'd help a lot if we could get more copies of Doubling Season and/or Parallel Lives, in addition to getting more Golems...

There we go! With Opalescence, we can turn our Doubling Seasons and/or Parallel Lives into creatures, and with Xenograft (which is also a creature) we can give all our creatures the Golem type. Now when we cast that first Rite of Replication, we end up with:

-41 Precursor Golems
-96 Golem friends
-123 "Double your Tokens" cards
-41 Xenografts (Xenograft is mostly just along for the ride here, but you have to copy it, and the creature types stack, so you might as well have Mutant Ninja Turtle Golems or whatever you think is funny)

Now when we do it again, we really need to go with scientific notation. If we target a Golem friend, we get (5*(2123)) copies of that golem, and (5*41*(2123)) copies of everything else. Assuming I'm reading my Windows calculator right, that's about 5*1037 copies of the original friend, plus 2*1039 copies of each of the 260 other creatures in play, which is roughly 5.5*1041 total creatures.

According to a quick google search, the number of atoms in the observable universe is in the 1087-1088 range. If we have a third Rite of Replication, we blow that number out of the water. For those who are into practical applications, this means the game state is impossible to represent with actual individual tokens. (Of course, it was before the third Rite as well.) If you get an opponent who's willing to play along, you can also do this to crash Magic Online, though that isn't all that hard.

Ultiville posted:

I ran out of word count and math ability, but the numbers in the above post are mostly estimates and a little low for the late ones. Once your Rites are copying Doubling Seasons it gets very hard to figure out because the order in which Rites resolve matters a lot; copies of Doubling Season get created and then double all the Rites that resolve after and it becomes a real clusterfuck. Basically those numbers are a bit low for the last scenario, though you still probably need three Rites to exceed the number of atoms in the observable universe.

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

Another less excessive but fun thing about Precursor Golem is that it copies entire spells.

Notably Precursor Golem in the same set as Twisted Image. Your 3/3s become... 3/3s. But since it copies the whole spell, you copy the "draw a card." Suddenly, this minor combat trick with a cantrip is Ancestral Recall.

Ulta posted:

So if were doing dumb magic combos, there is a legit way, no funny cards, to win on your opponents first turn, before they even get to go.

It relies on your opponent going first and you having two of these in your hand (or one and Spirit Guide, but lets say two to keep it simple). Now you start with two lands in play. That means you can cast Flash to put this guy onto the field . You won't be able to pay the cost that Flash requires to not sacrifice him, but thats ok, because you want to sacrifice him. He goes to the graveyard, and you grab 4 of these , one of these , and 5 or more 0 costing creatures from your deck. The 0 casting cost creatures are artifacts, so you sacrifice them to the ghoul, and each time you do, you deal 4 damage to your opponent from the disciple. Your opponent takes 20 damage before they even get to lay down a card.

Majuju posted:

You can make it work with any other land - all you need is the Gemstone Cavern in the initial draw. For turn-one kills with the perfect draw, however, nothing beats 4x Dark Ritual + Lightning Greaves + Phage:

Chamale posted:

In the older formats, Magic has a balance of terror between aggressive decks, combo decks, and controlling decks. The SA deckbuilding thread recently developed a deck playing Undercity Informer and Balustrade Spy, two cards that say "target player reveals cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a land card, then puts those cards into his or her graveyard." The deck has no lands in it, so when it plays one of those abilities, the entire deck goes into the graveyard. Narcomoeba comes into play, Dread Return brings back The Mimeoplasm, he gains all the size of Lord of Extinction and becomes a Giant Solifuge.

The result is a 60/57 creature that can attack immediately, damages the defending player even if he blocks it, and can't be targeted by removal spell. The deck has about a 40% chance of playing this creature on the first turn of the game.

RicochetD20 posted:

Here's my favorite simple combo


You tap the enchanted land, put the squirrel token into play, then use Earthcraft's ability to tap the squirrel and untap Squirrel Nest, then produce another squirrel and repeat until you have infinite squirrels in play. All but the last one you play are tapped, but next turn your opponent is eaten alive by infinite rodents

EVIR Gibson posted:

Here's another way to win with Phage.

Worst Easter Ever

Cast Summoners Egg

Choose Phage to tuck under it, face down.

Donateit to your opponent. Oh boy, he probably all excited! He doesn't know what it could be since you don't have to reveal Phage when putting it under the egg. It might be a Shivan Dragon!

Kill the Egg with your favorite artifact destruction spell.

Ta-dah you win! Phage's second ability says that if Phage enters the battlefield that is not from a hand, the controller loses the game. Since the opponent controlled the Egg at the time of destruction, they are considered the owner of the effect which is put whatever is underneath into play on their side. Unless they can Stifle to stop the automatic loss ability, they have to lose.

Donate also breaks some "eh" cards. The best example is combining it with Illusions of Grandeur and was actually a real deck at one point.

Cast Illusions of Grandeur

Gain 20 life.

Then Donate it to your opponent.

Cumulative Upkeep means that they have to first play 2 on the first upkeep, then 2+2 on the next, then 6, etc until they can't. When they can't then the enchantment is sent to the graveyard.

They can't destroy it, exile it, or try to prevent the life loss. They will lose.

Donates lets you stop your opponent from casting creatures, stop their creatures from doing damage, make them lose a smaller amount of life (shoutout to above Illusions), prime and unload a bomb in the form of a critter, make all their lands be removed from play, vomit their library into their graveyard, or just make them toss cards from their hand.

Jan 18, 2010

"How do I get rid of these nasty roaches?!"

Easy, just burn your house down.

Admitedly I don't think this one is so much "Strange game rules" but more "funny poo poo in Magic" to kick the thread off

I first got in the game in mirrodin block with arcbounds, creatures that were made up of artifacts, and when they died their buddies would take their parts and pass them on. I loved artifacts from that set and they kinda fell out after a while. The hero of the block was someone named Glissa who did some funny things.

I fell out and I got to see buddies playing so I hopped back in. Around this time they had the new sets where they went back to mirrodin, and from the first pack I opened I got Glissa, The Traitor..

Glissa, The traitor is a card that when you see you go "Oh man deathtouch first strike it's evil gotta kill it!" when honestly I wish it didn't have that. People online were talking about using Heartless Summoning with glissa to turn Perilous Myr into a 2 damage for nothing, which is pretty funny, but it seemed kinda useless, so I was sitting on the card waiting to find the one thing to tie it all together.

Then I saw this

"Oh man, I can drop perilous myr for FREE, and then I can attack my enemies and get them back for free if they block? that's great!"

In playtesting everyone would just ignore them and let the myr ping them for 1 damage instead of losing a creature, so back to the drawing board. "Hmm I need some way to sacrifice them..."

Also relevent, After searching through the big'ol'rulebook I got to see, You're allowed to pay to equip an equipment to a card it's allready attached too, you just don't move it. What makes this relevent is I can pay to tell glissa to put on the piston sledge she already has to keep sacrificing artifacts, cause 2 damage through a perilous myr, kill a creature, get the perilous myr back, play it again, and loop.

This alone means that right after everyone had their nomadic assembly decks where they'd crap out tons of 1/1 soldiers, I could with 1 perilous myr wipe the field and laugh, but that didn't win because I couldn't do anything else.

giving this little guy a piston sledge however is pretty effective.

Other cards came into the deck like Ichor Wellspring for draw power, Mirrorworks for a lategame, (because I never touch my mana) and I have two Green Sun Zenith Just to make sure I draw glissa. It stopped being effective since all the murders and tragic slips came into play but it's still one of my favorite decks.

And it's the only standard deck I had.

Also to clarify, tne entire deck was built around turning their creatures into the fuel I use to keep playing creatures, and when they have no creatures I can just swing with glissa or perilous myr or necropede depending on how I feel.

Forer fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2013 around 19:25

Lottery of Babylon
Apr 25, 2012


Here's some more weirdness I remember from when I played Yu-Gi-Oh:

Fairly straightforward effect: the strongest monster is unaffected by spell cards. This card is probably the single biggest rules nightmare in Yu-Gi-Oh.

Suppose you've got a 1700 ATK guy and I've got a 1500 ATK guy. Pole Position is in play. I play a Continuous Spell that gives all my guys +500 ATK. Now my guy has 2000 ATK, so he's unaffected by spells, so he only has 1500 ATK, so he's affected by spells again, so he actually has 2000 ATK, so... and the game freezes because your monster is stuck oscillating his ATK forever.

In MtG, if an infinite loop occurs and nobody is capable of breaking it, the game is a draw. But in Yu-Gi-Oh, the rule is instead that you're not allowed to create infinite loops. So in the above example, I wasn't actually allowed to play that Continuous Spell that boosted my monster's ATK and created the loop. Fair enough.

The problem is that sometimes, there's no way to know in advance that an action will trigger an infinite loop, even if it does. Suppose we're in a similar situation to above: I have Pole Position and you have a monster with 1700 ATK. I play my 1500 ATK monster face-down and my Continuous Spell face-up. All of this is legal because, while my monster is face-down, Pole Position ignores it. On your turn, your monster attacks my monster, which flips my monster face-up, which triggers the loop. But you had no way of knowing in advance that your attack would trigger an infinite loop, so your move was legal.

The official ruling? If an infinite loop does occur, the game destroys cards until it stops. How is it decided which cards get destroyed? After all, in these examples, destroying any of the four cards in play would end the loop, but I'd much rather your monster be killed than mine. But the rulings don't actually give a general rule for how to decide which card is destroyed when an infinite loop occurs; they specify that Pole Position is destroyed if a loop involving Pole Position occurs, but there's no clear general principle at work other than "seriously, gently caress Pole Position". Oh, and its secondary effect that destroys a monster when it leaves the field doesn't trigger when it's destroyed this way - again, no reason given.

The need for the game to be able to destroy cards if an infinite loop occurs has lead to cards that would otherwise be written "This card cannot be destroyed" to instead be written "This card cannot be destroyed by battle or by card effects" - which is normally all of the ways that could possibly destroy a card, but they need to be able to carve in a little hole to allow the game mechanics to destroy the card if it's involved in an infinite loop.

To make the rules even less clear: all of these rulings come from Upper Deck Entertainment, not Konami. UDE hasn't been involved in the game for years since they were caught in some sort of counterfeiting scandal. With them out of the picture, all of these rulings have retroactively become unofficial, and Konami has never released (and probably will never release) any new official rulings to replace them. In the end, there aren't actually any rules governing how Pole Position works. Good luck figuring it out.

Feb 21, 2013

Man, I wish Library of Thun was still around so I could post some wonky Warlord stuff I remember.

I could do my best without a reference, but since Warlord is (relatively) unknown, I don't know if it would be very effective.

Gross Dude
Feb 5, 2007

Gross Dude

Lottery of Babylon posted:

The need for the game to be able to destroy cards if an infinite loop occurs has lead to cards that would otherwise be written "This card cannot be destroyed" to instead be written "This card cannot be destroyed by battle or by card effects" - which is normally all of the ways that could possibly destroy a card, but they need to be able to carve in a little hole to allow the game mechanics to destroy the card if it's involved in an infinite loop.

This oddity exists in magic as well. Certain cards need to be countered by the game rules at certain times, such as when a target becomes illegal. These cards will specify that spells and abilities can't counter them.

Which is different than cards that don't target. These cards will just say they can't be countered.

Which is different from cards that target, but that you REALLY don't want the game rules to counter. This card specifies that ONLY spells and abilities can counter it.

There's no picture I can provide because the relevant rules text only exists in errata, but Gilded Drake's current text is:


When Gilded Drake enters the battlefield, exchange control of Gilded Drake and 
up to one target creature an opponent controls. If you don't make an exchange, 
sacrifice Gilded Drake. This ability can't be countered except by spells and 
abilities. (This effect lasts indefinitely.)
It's the only ability in magic that can't be countered by the game rules.

The reason that it is like this is because of the "If you don't make an exchange, sacrifice Gilded Drake" clause. If the game rules did counter the ability (probably because the target either died or became an illegal target), then you wouldn't have to sacrifice the drake because that clause is part of the ability.

Edit: Table Breaking.

Gross Dude fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2013 around 23:05

Mar 13, 2007

I don't want no Commies in my car. No Christians, neither.

MtG has this card called Mogg Bombers, it's just a creature whose physical attributes are pretty unimportant, but it has an ability: "When another creature enters the battlefield, sacrifice Mogg Bombers and it deals 3 damage to target player."

So you might think hey, creature enters the battlefield, your bombers die and a player takes 3 damage. But under Magic rules (at least at the time, this was like 15 years ago and I have no idea what's happened since then), the sacrifice isn't a cost you're paying to deal 3 damage, it just part of effect that gets triggered by a creature entering the battlefield.

So say you do something that causes multiple creatures to enter play (Like, play Goblin Offensive, which lets you put a bunch of goblins into play at once, or Mogg Infestation, which kills all a player's creatures and then lets you put 2 Goblins into play for each creature that was destroyed). The Bombers effect triggers once for each creature that enters play, and then that stack of triggered effects starts to resolve. Game looks at the first one and goes "sacrifice the bombers, deal 3 damage." Done, bombers are gone. Game looks at the second triggered effect and says "Sacrifice the bombers...okay, can't do that, they're gone 3 damage," and then that keeps happening each time that triggered effect resolves.

Not exactly a game-winning card unless you have a way to put a bunch of creatures into play at once. Or unless you're playing multiplayer, for which the game is specifically not balanced, where everyone tends to sit and play defensively rather than just go for the throat, which can give you the opportunity to build up enormous mana reserves or just have a shitload of creatures on the table.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

No EXP received.

Despite the natural rivalry, they can't ever actually engage in combat with each other, because as part of protection they can't block each other. They're parallel lines.

Using a Fight card will produce... nothing, because they can't deal damage to each other.

These two knights are just incapable of interacting.

Nightfall Predator can fight itself.

This card is not an aura, nor does it make things indestructible. Rad art, though.

Giving a creature with First Strike First Strike will actually give it two instances of First Strike. However, since First Strike is a static ability and more modifies the rules than responds to something, it doesn't do anything to have multiples.

I've had a trio of Legion Loyalists swing at the same time, giving all of them Trample, Trample, Trample, First Strike, First Strike, First Strike, and can't be blocked by tokens, can't be blocked by tokens, and can't be blocked by tokens.

Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!

Lottery of Babylon posted:

Here's some more weirdness I remember from when I played Yu-Gi-Oh:

Fairly straightforward effect: the strongest monster is unaffected by spell cards. This card is probably the single biggest rules nightmare in Yu-Gi-Oh.

The protection rules in Magic caused a similar rules headache before they were codified. The above-mentioned Black Knight couldn't be affected by white spells at all. What happens when a player casts Balance? Maybe the Black Knight should get counted by Balance, maybe Balance should ignore it completely, and depending on the circumstances a player may or may not want his Black Knight to get counted by Balance. This created such a rules nightmare that early Magic FAQs instructed players to warn their opponent before using a deck with cards that have protection, and the original rulebook says to flip a coin in the event of an intractable rules dispute.

Nowadays protection is precisely codified, and it sometimes confuses new players but no longer causes hideous pileups on the rules interstate.

Apr 2, 2008


This one's strange I guess

The current Oracle wording is: "Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant."

The need for the instant clause is a bit interesting. Whenever you cast a spell, you announce the spell, pay all costs, then cast it, putting it onto the stack. Normal sources of mana don't use the stack at all, and it doesn't tend to be an issue. In this case though, without that instant clause you could announce a spell, then use the diamond for mana without discarding the spell you announced.

This is the rulings note at the bottom of the Gatherer entry: "The ability is a mana ability, so it is activated and resolves as a mana ability, but it can only be activated at times when you can cast an Instant. Yes, this is a bit weird."

Jan 25, 2005

Trust me. I'm a doctor. An ANGRY doctor.

So when did "fizzling" stop being an official thing in magic (and replaced by a weird "countered by the rules")? I don't understand why they got rid of having a dedicated word for that.

Opinion Haver
Apr 9, 2007

Was 'fizzle' ever an official term for 'countered due to all targets becoming illegal'? I thought the only rules-important words they got rid of were islandhome, substance, and bury.

Jan 25, 2005

Trust me. I'm a doctor. An ANGRY doctor.

yaoi prophet posted:

Was 'fizzle' ever an official term for 'countered due to all targets becoming illegal'? I thought the only rules-important words they got rid of were islandhome, substance, and bury.

I was under the impression that it was, but I could easily be wrong. It's been over a decade since I played.

Apr 2, 2008


Fizzle was never official, but it's common and I still hear it a fair amount. Though it might be more popularly used now to refer to a combo deck running out of steam.

Nov 18, 2003


Yeah, fizzle has always meant the spell is countered or canceled.

Not an actual strange rule, but my friends and I got back into Magic around the 2010 changes and grossly misinterpreted the targeting rules to mean that if a target became invalid while the ability was on the stack, you had to choose another target. This led to the hilarious idea that if one cast Vines of Vastwood to give your only creature shroud in response to Murder, the caster of Murder had to ice her own creature.

(It doesn't work this way. Murder just fizzles, having no valid target.)

EVIR Gibson
Mar 23, 2001

Gau posted:

Yeah, fizzle has always meant the spell is countered or canceled.

Not an actual strange rule, but my friends and I got back into Magic around the 2010 changes and grossly misinterpreted the targeting rules to mean that if a target became invalid while the ability was on the stack, you had to choose another target. This led to the hilarious idea that if one cast Vines of Vastwood to give your only creature shroud in response to Murder, the caster of Murder had to ice her own creature.

(It doesn't work this way. Murder just fizzles, having no valid target.)

When I started playing magic around Revised, I said something was "countered" if I used a Counterspell on something (sidenote:only on Sorceries/Interrupts/Instants/Enchantments. I never considered Creatures and Artifacts "spells") but used "fizzled" when a spell suddenly did not have a target even though it was just countered.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

No EXP received.

Soulless One. Despite not having a soul, as per the name, it can be


Seized! Manipulated! Held for Ransom!

Reaped! Sculpted! Snared!

Made to march! Betrayed! Collected!

Have avatars crafted from it!

Let's make it White and not Black:

Now it can be

Severed! Shredded! Rent!

A shitton of things related to souls can affect Soulless One.

Sep 28, 2008


Seize the Soul affects only nonwhite nonblack creatures, fyi, so that particular one does not work. Funny otherwise though.

Nov 3, 2006

SageNytell posted:

Seize the Soul affects only nonwhite nonblack creatures, fyi, so that particular one does not work. Funny otherwise though.

Ah, but you see, thanks to a cunning magic trick, Orange Fluffy Sheep did not make Soulless One white, but red.

So it still works fine.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

No EXP received.

SageNytell posted:

Seize the Soul affects only nonwhite nonblack creatures, fyi, so that particular one does not work. Funny otherwise though.

I had forgotten the minute of Sieze the Soul since the days of RAV/TSP/9th.

To make amends:

Soulless Revival can return a Vassal Soul without issue.

Funner fact: Remove Soul is quite literal on Vassal Soul.

Feb 21, 2013

So I found a site with Warlord card images, and I think I can illustrate some interesting (but not quite game-breaking) stuff.

Fasolt and Athenae's Armor. Fasolt is a fighter who cannot equip items with traits, except weapons, because he'd be too strong he's a giant. Nice and full of flavour, a helm wouldn't fit him for example, but he could learn a new fighting stance (Which is represented as an item in the game, for balance reasons)
But apparently an armour made for an Elf (which are your average fantasy Elf, lithe and thin) does. And gives him some very strong bonuses.

Second, we have Ghed Mnettaor, whom I very much liked, and Quick Strength (Quick Shielding does a similar thing, with AC instead of attack).
So I can have Ghed Mnettaor standing front and ready, and attack with her. At the same time, I can play Quick Strength as a reaction (since it can target the caster), and give her a +5 ATK bonus, since Ghed's level is 5. More often than not (since level 5 characters are not very easy to get in play) it means that she's better at casting Quick Strength than someone who is a dedicated cleric.
She is also an Evil Paladin.

A bit of explanation if I'm unclear:
Fasolt is a level 5 (number inside the class icon is 5) Good (class icon is white) fighter (class icon is a glove) who belongs to the mercenary faction (it says so in his text, and his card border is blue). Top left is the attack bonus (Attacking works as follows: Roll a d20, add your attack bonus, check if it's higher than opponent's AC), top right is AC.

Opinion Haver
Apr 9, 2007

I thought of something really weird the other day: how to use Blood Lust to raise a creature's toughness.

  1. Have Krark-Clan Ironworks, two Masters of Etherium, a Spinal Parasite with no counters, and a Mountain in play, with Blood Lust in your hand.
  2. Put Blood Lust on the stack targeting Spinal Parasite.
  3. Sacrifice both Masters of Etherium to the Ironworks. At this point Spinal Parasite has -1 toughness. Normally a creature with toughness 0 or less dies instantly, but this only happens as what's known as a 'state-based action'. State-based actions don't occur in the middle of casting a spell, so it doesn't die.
  4. Tap the Mountain and finish casting Blood Lust. During its resolution, X will be -1, so the Parasite will get +4/-(-1-1) = +4/+2 (since power/toughness modifying effects are one of the few cases where Magic deals with negative numbers 'correctly'; see Chant of the Skifsang/Ichor Explosion.)

Opinion Haver fucked around with this message at Dec 14, 2013 around 00:25

Aug 6, 2008

I'll take her off your hands. Pleasure doing business with you!

Opinion Haver posted:

I thought of something really weird the other day: how to use Blood Lust to raise a creature's toughness.

  • Have Krark-Clan Ironworks, two Masters of Etherium, a Spinal Parasite with no counters, and a Mountain in play, with Blood Lust in your hand.
  • Put Blood Lust on the stack targeting Spinal Parasite.
  • Sacrifice both Masters of Etherium to the Ironworks. At this point Spinal Parasite has -1 toughness. Normally a creature with toughness 0 or less dies instantly, but this only happens as what's known as a 'state-based action'. State-based actions don't occur in the middle of casting a spell, so it doesn't die.
  • Tap the Mountain and finish casting Blood Lust. During its resolution, X will be -1, so the Parasite will get +4/-(-1-1) = +4/+2 (since power/toughness modifying effects are one of the few cases where Magic deals with negative numbers 'correctly'; see Chant of the Skifsang/Ichor Explosion.)

SBAs occur right before any player gets priority. After you finish putting Blood Lust on the stack, Spinal Parasite will die and Blood Lust will fizzle.

EDIT: However, you can do similar shenanigans with power instead of toughness. Hyalopterous Lemure and Ichor Explosion form a combo to give all creatures +∞/+∞ until end of turn.

Zemyla fucked around with this message at Dec 14, 2013 around 19:28

Opinion Haver
Apr 9, 2007

Zemyla posted:

SBAs occur right before any player gets priority. After you finish putting Blood Lust on the stack, Spinal Parasite will die and Blood Lust will fizzle.

EDIT: However, you can do similar shenanigans with power instead of toughness. Hyalopterous Lemure and Ichor Explosion form a combo to give all creatures +∞/+∞ until end of turn.

Dammit, I forgot that players would get priority after Blood Lust.

Feb 21, 2013

Zemyla posted:

SBAs occur right before any player gets priority. After you finish putting Blood Lust on the stack, Spinal Parasite will die and Blood Lust will fizzle.

EDIT: However, you can do similar shenanigans with power instead of toughness. Hyalopterous Lemure and Ichor Explosion form a combo to give all creatures +∞/+∞ until end of turn.

+∞/+∞ in this context being "arbitrarily large", since actual INFINITE (meaning unbreakable, not stuff I can cancel out of if I want to) combos are kind of banned in Magic, in the sense that if the game enters a mandatory, looping, unbreakable sequence of events, it ends in a draw.

Jan 25, 2012

'You never know beforehand what people are capable of, you have to wait, give it time, it's time that rules, time is our gambling partner on the other side of the table and it holds all the cards of the deck in its hand, we have to guess the winning cards of life, our lives.'

You're familiar with this combo, right?
Let's take this further. Much further.INFINITE DRINKS FURTHER.
So get these on the field first, alongside our coupon and lair:

Play a scepter,
ImprintingUpon it.
Following this, spend 2 and tap the scepter. You now have 2 artifact townsfolk. Tap both to untap the scepter, then sacrifice one to the ashnod's altar to generate two mana, which you use to tap the scepter again to generate 2 more artifact townsfolk. Repeat ad nauseum, gaining 1 creature overall each time.
Then, Use Sydri to turn our Ashnod coupon into a creature - thanks to our anthem, it's a 1/1 rather than 0/0. Penultimately, Once you're done generating, Play this targeting the ashnod coupon creature.Everything untaps.
Sacrifice all of your creatures.

I'll be working on streamlining this combo over a few days - Sydri and the anthem can be replaced by Tezzeret agent of Bolas, for example, and we'll work from there.

Feb 23, 2013

So wait, this is a combo to bankrupt another player by getting them to buy you an infinite arbitrarily large number of drinks? Awesome.

Aug 3, 2009

Can't touch this.
No really, you can't

Doesn't that not work because Mirrorweave specifies nonlegendary creature? If I'm reading right, Sydri doesn't say that the artifact loses all other types, so the secret lair is a Legendary Artifact Land Creature.

vvv Oh oops, you're right. I am sick please ignore me.

Sade fucked around with this message at Dec 18, 2013 around 00:20

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

Sade posted:

Doesn't that not work because Mirrorweave specifies nonlegendary creature? If I'm reading right, Sydri doesn't say that the artifact loses all other types, so the secret lair is a Legendary Artifact Land Creature.

Except they're all becoming Ashnod's Coupon. The Lair is just sitting there and is only involved to ensure the errata goes unused.

Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado

As a player of both Yugioh and Magic I can say that Yugioh is a hot mess of a game. Not only does the game basically have no resources and even less balance but it's full of fiddly little bits and bobs that to an outside observer seem insane. And an inside observer sees merely as bizarre.

Quickplay Conundrums

Let's start off light shall we? Yugioh is divided roughly into 3 main types card cards: Monster cards who hit things, Spell cards which help you hit things, and Trap cards which punish your opponent for hitting you. With an obvious caveat for exceptions there are two main differences between Spell and Trap cards, Trap cards must be set facedown for a turn before they can be activated, and they can be activated at any time (They're Instants to all you magic players)

Now there is a subset of Spell cards that are fast, these are quickplay spells.

This is a fairly basic example of a Quickplay spell. It makes your dude bigger. Now an important wrinkle is that Quickplay spells can be activated like traps, but on your turn they don't need to be set for a turn to work. On your turn you can attack a bigger dude and use Rush Recklessly straight from your hand.

Why bring this all up? Because Quickplay spells behave stupidly. If you want to attack into a bigger monster and use Rush Recklessly from your hand go ahead, but if you were stupid and SET Rush Recklessly face-down on your field you're hosed. Why? Because once they hit the field they act exactly and inexplicably like Trap Cards, and you can't activate a facedown trap card the turn you set it. And no, no other type of magic is like that: Every other type of magic can be set facedown and activated later that turn. Quickplay Spells are special.

As an aside Spell cards were originally printed as "Magic Cards" but WotC sued Upperdeck who then ran Yugioh in the States because people might "confuse" Yugioh's Magic Cards with Magic: The Gathering's Magic Cards. They essentially did a find-replace for every instance of Magic with Spell. Literally in the case of one of the Yugioh games.

While they went and changed most of them back to what they properly should be, this card in the game helpfully said it searched for a "Dark Spellian of Chaos". Oops. Want to know something else annoying involving Quickplay Magic and the Dark Spellian of Chaos?

Missed the Timing

Magical Dimension (They presumably can't use the original name: Dimension Magic because of the lawsuit) is a pretty good card. It lets you get a high level spellcaster out that would ordinarily require you to sacrifice more monsters, you can spring it on your opponent as a surprise, and it lets you blow something up. However that last "Blow Something Up" clause causes no end of trouble. One of the posts from the old thread up top mentioned the scourge of "Missed the Timing" with Poison Draw Frog. Here it is again.

The Dark Spellian of Chaos is a wonderful card. So wonderful in fact they banned it. It's very powerful with 2800 attack, it regrows a spell which is absurdly overpowered in a game where they cost nothing to play usually, and it's ability to Banish (read: exile) anything it kills is situationally handy. It's the sort of card you'd want to summon with Magical Dimension, but if you do you can't recover a card because you missed the timing. Why? Because when a card says "you can" do something in a certain trigger you can do so only if it's the last thing to have happened. Magical Dimension summons a monster and THEN destroys a card so the last thing that happened is being offered a choice to destroy a card. What's frustrating is that Magical Dimensions effects were flipped, you destroy and THEN summon it wouldn't be a problem at all.

Speaking of very specific orders


Ally of Justice - Catastor is one of my favorite cards. Why? Because it can kill about 75% of the monsters in the game with no fuss. Now a small problem is that the DARK Attribute is probably the most common of the game's six attributes, but the ability to instantly wipe out nearly anyone else is much appreciated. However this leads us down the rabbit hole to another weird timing issue.

In Yugioh you can play monsters facedown in defense mode to protect yourself and/or them. If you do Catastor cannot destroy them. Why? Because of the goofy order things you also see in Missed Timings. Catastor's effect triggers at the start of the damage step, but monsters are only flipped faceup to see what they actually are DURING the damage step. Catastor's ability can't see if it's a Non-DARK monster at all and fizzles.

Incidentally there's a weird ruling that tells you how different Yugioh is from Magic. It states that if a monster has more than one attribute (rare but possible as seen with Dark Simorgh) and any of them are not DARK it destroys them. Even if it has the DARK attribute. Thus Dark Simorgh will die instantly to Catastor despite being a Dark Monster. This is basically the opposite of how it is in Magic, as anyone who tried to Doom Blade a Gold creature will tell you.

More Weird Rulings

This is E-Hero Rampart Blaster

It doesn't work right. The way the card is written in the Japanese (and indeed how it was used in the show) says that it can make a direct attack in defense mode no matter what. That language is the same language used for the various cards that can ignore your opponent's monsters and go for the throat directly. But you can't with Rampart Blaster. Why? Because Konami said so. They say that "can attack your opponent directly" means "When they have no monsters and you can do it normally". For a while it was the big difference between the American and Japanese versions of Yugioh as Upperdeck made their own ruling saying you could play the card as printed. However Upperdeck no longer runs Yugioh so Rampart Blaster remains worse off. The one shining spot?

Later Printings of the card now have the ruling right there in the text so there's less unnecessary confusion.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

No EXP received.

Equipment is kinda funny if you think about it too hard. As it attaches to a creature, it merely confers bonuses to the thing its attached to.

The obvious thing is that there's rarely restrictions on equipping. This abstract concept can grab an axe, put on some boots, and wear silver armor.

Since all the equipment does is confer bonuses, the manefestations of mourning the dead wielding an axe can still smash this society-shunning cat dude, presumably with said axe. Protection from artifacts means the cat dude can't ever hold said axe, or wear shoes, though.

On the other hand, giant robots and explosives also do nothing to the cat dude.

"Instinct is all I need. Also immunity to rocket launchers."

Considering some of the types in magic, these knights can be oddly specific. They can hunt only Sponges, or perhaps they really hate turtles. They'll attack Survivors of a specific ancient war on an entirely different world. They can be the bane of Gods, or perhaps they just don't like Sand. Or they can despise Cowards, probably because Cowards can't block Warriors.

Feb 21, 2013

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

Equipment is kinda funny if you think about it too hard. As it attaches to a creature, it merely confers bonuses to the thing its attached to.

The obvious thing is that there's rarely restrictions on equipping. This abstract concept can grab an axe, put on some boots, and wear silver armor.

Actually, that specific one can't grab an axe, put on some boots, or wear silver armour. Equip is a targeted ability, so when you use Equip targeting it, it is destroyed (unless he has some indestructibility going on).

But yes, Equipment is indeed weird. And I love it.

Aug 9, 2008

To become the moon
Then all the world will be in sight!

Back when equipment were new, my favorite thing was to put two or more swords on a tiny bird. How is he holding all that poo poo?

Sep 27, 2004

Look, one way or another, you're leaving this place covered in semen. Might as well have some fun.

Requiring mana to equip was almost certainly a bottom-up decision, but flavor-wise, we can pretend that that magical energy gets used to re-shape the item into something the creature in question can actually use. Without that explanation, it actually doesn't make a ton of sense why picking up that axe requires the energy of an entire mountain (or whatever).

I'm sure something equips for free, but like I said, it was bottom up. Sometimes you just need to make things work.

Oct 28, 2010

Well obviously he didn't see it, or he'd be wearing a hardhat

DontMockMySmock posted:

Back when equipment were new, my favorite thing was to put two or more swords on a tiny bird. How is he holding all that poo poo?

With the arm right there in the sword's art, of course.

Jan 18, 2010

"How do I get rid of these nasty roaches?!"

Easy, just burn your house down.

One of the reasons I love magic the gathering is just how they set the game up. The game has a lot of cards that let you pretend to be your magician throwing spells and doing fancy magictricks to gently caress over your opponents mage, but the reason it's introduction to contract law is because of how much meta poo poo you can do. For example:

"Hey bob, you know how you're at like 9,539 life and essentially unkillable?" "yeah, what's your point" "You lose!"

"Guess what rear end in a top hat! I don't lose!"

Losing a game of magic, and winning a game of magic, are both things that can be forced inside a game of magic.

Ultimate arcane power at the cost of losing if it doesn't work is a common theme

(also for anyone in the know, I'd love to see this on an isochron scepter and the next card out and just laugh your rear end off)

But it's also common to see poo poo that is just hillariously powerful because of it, For example: Platinum angel.

Yes, That is "You can't lose and your opponents can't win", This is important because if it said just one of the two, you could either be dimension doored to losing if your opponents can't win, and when a person loses, all of their cards go away, and then since he has no opponent he wins and since platinum angel isn't around he can't NOT win. if it said you can't lose then he can use something like Battle of Wits and outplay you.

Also in the game, more sneakilly, is something called Poison.

Every time you take damage, instead of losing life from a poison creature, it gives you poison counters. The second you hit 10 poison counters you lose.

"Ha bob, I got you! I got you beat now and you're at 10 poison counters, you lose!" "NU-UH, I GOT A LICH'S MIRROR, That replaces my loss with some effect!" "Ok, You don't lose the game, you set yourself at 20 life, lose your permanents and shuffle your deck and draw... You're still at 10 poison so YOU LOSE AGAIN!"

Grand mages in a duel, winning and losing a duel is just another thing to manipulate. Let's kick this into "nobody would ever do this but god drat is it hillarious."

There are cards in the game that let you manipulate your opponents field, generally to give your opponents white elephants that hurt them for having, example.

What happens when you give your opponent a lich's mirror from bartering it onto them, and then kill them with poison?

"Instead of losing" meaning you don't lose, instead do an effect
"Shuffle your hand, your graveyard, and all permanents you own" the owner of a card is the person who started the game with it in his deck (this is so people can't steal other peoples cards anymore), the lich's mirror is owned NOT by the person who just lost, so it stays in play.
"Draw 7 cards" - self explanatory
"Reset life to 20" - supposed to save you from death
Effect ends, state based actions check, Oh hey you're dead from poison you lose! Wait, Lich's mirror is out so instead of losing do the effect forever

In a game of mages winning and losing is an in game effect, and it's possible to make someone lose infinite times

Edit: also for clarification since we did mention infinite in magic earlier: This is ACTUAL infinite, because nobody can respond since losing is a state based action and the substitution interrupts the state based action, The person loses and before anyone can react, he loses again and again and again and again and again, so BECAUSE he loses SO MUCH... it's a draw. Welcome to magic!

Forer fucked around with this message at Dec 21, 2013 around 22:31

Feb 25, 2006

Jazz Hands Bonanza!

Legend of the Five Rings was discussed a bit in the last thread, but there's some other stuff going on there that sounds really good from a flavor aspect that ends up just being... well, off.

Honor is a big part of L5R's lore and flavor, and mechanically comes into play in two ways when it comes to personalities: Their own Personal Honor, a value printed on their card, and their honorable state. All personalities (unless stated otherwise on their card) enter play honorable by default. When they're dishonored, the card is spun 180 degrees so it's upside down, and their personal honor is reduced to 0. In this state, any personality with the samurai, shugenja, or courtier keywords is allowed to commit seppuku, destroying them and cleansing the shame of their deeds from their family and history. For most instances, this works just fine. However.

This rule means that Yogo Junzo, one of the major antagonists of the Clan War arc and overall evil dude, can suddenly be filled with so much shame at his actions that he falls on his sword. Or whatever sword happens to be close by, I guess, because I sure don't see one there. Maybe he stuffs himself full of black scrolls and chokes, I don't know.

More fun stuff, the rules for seppuku don't care if the keyword is printed on the card, or given through some other means. Which means...


Nikushimi, the physical manifestation of hatred itself, can find a fan and become so adept at courtly intrigue that he might suddenly throw himself off the nearest building in guilt at his political blunder.

Maybe he lands on Yogo Junzo pining for his lost honor.

The worst submarine
Apr 26, 2010


Forer posted:

In a game of mages winning and losing is an in game effect, and it's possible to make someone lose infinite times
Which, if the loop is stable, makes it a draw.

Jan 18, 2010

"How do I get rid of these nasty roaches?!"

Easy, just burn your house down.

The worst submarine posted:

Which, if the loop is stable, makes it a draw.

I just went back to edit it and didn't think anyone would beat me to it, Yeah you lose so much you draw.


Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado

Boxman posted:

Requiring mana to equip was almost certainly a bottom-up decision, but flavor-wise, we can pretend that that magical energy gets used to re-shape the item into something the creature in question can actually use. Without that explanation, it actually doesn't make a ton of sense why picking up that axe requires the energy of an entire mountain (or whatever).

That actually is the explanation provided by Wizards once, I think in "Ask Wizards" or as a response to someone asking the guy who does the Flavor column about it. I believe the example they gave is that a Wall given a sword grows Swordy outcropping that hit things.

Of course if you spend the equip cost to modify your creature and your equipment so they can be used together it still doesn't explain poo poo like Magnetic Theft or Vulshok Battlemaster but whatever.

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