Dungeon World Thread (Messy, Forceful, Stunning)

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MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Lemon Curdistan posted:

Ultimately, I think MCing is one of the worst bits of Dungeon World since it's both confusing and unfairly restrictive.

It would be much better for everyone if instead of being a per-playbook move thing, MCing were either part of Level Up or just a rule. Specifically, something like this:

Well the issue is that its actually supposed to be follow the "genre conventions" of D&D because you kind of more or less just reinvented the level up mechanics from Apocalypse World.

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Mar 25, 2013

# ¿ Mar 25, 2013 21:22

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 00:05

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

KillerQueen posted:

True enough, but I must say I like Lemon's MC rule quite a bit more than the base DW rule. It honestly never really makes sense to me when a class has absolutely no multiclass rules (in fact I feel it's the only weakness, period, of the Psion class)

I was just explaining why the rules work the way they do because honestly it kind of irritates me too because its the only D&Dism that I really despise in that game.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2013 22:19

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Lemon Curdistan posted:

While I acknowledge that "having lovely and confusing rules that fail to accomplish what they set out to do" is indeed a D&D genre convention, I feel it's a D&D genre convention that DW can do without.

Then why did you include them into the Shaman on purpose. Its also the reason why I hate the Artificer multiclass moves too. They are just needless restrictions on genre conventions in a game where you would want to actually multiclass into multiple classes.

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Mar 26, 2013

# ¿ Mar 25, 2013 23:59

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Lemon Curdistan posted:

Because the alternate version of Level Up I proposed isn't RAW.

No you kind of missed my point. The concept of a favored class/thematically appropriate is an incredibly annoying D&Dism that does not belong in this game. The Shaman is a particularly egregious example because Mage and Wizard would make just as much sense as the Druid or Ranger namely because of how varied the arctheypte actually is. You are complaining about how unfairly restricting the game actually is but in the process of designing your class you kind of ramrodded in an extremely narrow view of the archtype with that stupid multiclass move.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2013 15:49

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Lemon Curdistan posted:

No, it's not. The concept of some class being inherently closer to other classes is not a D&Dism, especially not when used to drive a fictional identity. Why does the Shaman have the Ranger and Druid as "favoured classes?" Because they're all "primal" archetypes that are close to nature; it makes sense in terms of the fiction for any given Shaman to have a predilection for having an animal companion or being able to turn into a bear, and it also makes sense mechanically because of the overlap between these classes (e.g. the Druid's talking-to-things moves).

Just out of curiousity have you ever played Legend of the Five Rings?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Mar 26, 2013 18:37

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Talkc posted:

MSW also has played a bard that was essentially a multiclass focused bard. For a class that has a large emphasis on mutliclass it ends up being pretty cool too.

Thats because I get bored and start mashing up multiple archetypes to create something new which is why I despise the "niche protection" multiclass moves. Its also why the fighter is probably as wonky as it is given that it has no niche which is apparently easy to fix given only slight modifications to its base moves and rewriting almost all of its advanced to reflect the new niche.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2013 23:54

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Well I finished my "compendium class*" which is a Firefighter. Its a bit problematic as I'm trying to bash an entire class archetype into a compendium class but I'd rather see some feedback for the moves I currently have especially with regards to Rescue Proficiency. I like the triggering mechanism for it but I for the life of me can't figure out what it should do mechanically. Also, discount the emergency wording trigger for some of the moves as I completely forgot that I need to rewrite the moves to make them easier to trigger.
http://goo.gl/979Wd
*Technically its a class but I've hit multiple snags with it and decided to work on half a dozen other compendium classes that I need to work on.

# ¿ May 23, 2013 04:33

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

EscortMission posted:

Emergency Entrance - This is a really complicated Defy Danger DEX that uses INT. The class has a lot of moves already, is cutting this and using Defy Danger DEX an option?

Its actually supposed to be a modified version of Bend Bars Lift Gates because holy crap if there is ever a concept in which you literally have a reason to Bend Bars Lift Gates its a Firefighter. If anyone has any suggestions to make it more evocative or worded better I'm really open to it.

quote:

Backpack Water Cannon - This is a cool idea, although the tags are kind of a mess. Forceful is good, although it should have at least Close and maybe Loud. I'm not sure what water elemental is supposed to do, and you realize that if it can do lethal damage it can blow a hole in a guy's head right? I'm also not sure what it counting as your Signature Weapon is supposed to mean, can you use Blacksmith and Heirloom with it or does it combine with the Signature Weapon ability to get abilities like Serrated or Sharp?

Yeah I completely forgot to add the range tags and maybe loud. The elemental tag is something I took from the artificer though now that you mention it I really don't need it. Also, I should reword the last line as its supposed to be able count as a signature weapon when taking advance moves from the Fighter. As for it being able to kill people I might actually relegate it to solely stun damage which knocks people out instead of lethal damage.

quote:

Prime the Pumps - Do you have to be near water for this to work, or does the water come from somewhere else? How long does it take, a solid minute, a few crucial moments, can you reload instantly?

Those are good questions and I should elaborate on that more.

quote:

Bunker Gear - Most fire attacks also have Ignore Armor, maybe "takes two less damage from fire attacks" or even "takes half damage" or "is impervious to fire attacks." You're The Firefighter, facing fire is what you do. I have no idea what the other part about being armed and armored means, its almost implying that your gear protects you even though you're not even wearing it. Maybe "it takes you a split second to become armed and put on your armor" is a better reflection of what you're looking for?

Honestly, I didn't really know if making something impervious to fire was overpowered or not. During the campaign I was running it more or less operated like that and I can change it back. Also yes the bold part should be how the move is read. I was thinking of how firefighters are typically rather adept and quick when putting on their gear.

quote:

Light Speedrescue - Why is this using STR? This is another Defy Danger DEX that uses a different stat, why not just use the standard Defy Danger framework and let bad things happen on their own?

This one actually isn't a Defy Danger move. This one is supposed to be akin to the Jetpack Boots from the Artificer. Admittedly, the stupid naming scheme might not have helped as I probably should call it First Responder.

quote:

I think there's a cool class in here, but you should think of ways that the Firefighter can be useful in situations that aren't fires. Maybe something that lets him to use his axe to quickly and safely hack through a barrier or obstacle, or an ability to let you carry somebody over your shoulder (maybe two people?) without it counting against your Load (Fireman's Carry?). Do Firefighters know rapid first aid techniques? Maybe they can have something to let people ignore debilities temporarily or stabilize unconscious victims.

These are all good suggestions. Admittedly, the problem is that fictionally I have the iconic representation of a firefighter in my head but making the leap to mechanics is a bit on the hard side. It will probably get better as I work on other compendium classes though as I really am not joking in that I ended up with a half of dozen concepts for compendium classes I probably should flesh out for my next campaign that takes place in the same setting.

# ¿ May 23, 2013 17:36

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Golden Bee posted:

I don't find the mage overpowered at all, because in Dungeon World, you can hit the mage. My party's mage is an astrologer elf who worships the stars and commands the weather. Even though she's level 6, she almost died last session when a dude in platemail grabbed her and gave her a solid headbutt.

Mages in DW don't have wards, contingencies, miss percentages and summons. They have their wits, their books and their spells. (And if your players are like mine, they'll forget to use their books. If you're making an equipment page that has books, explain what they do or your players will use'em as monster bait).

Honestly, Tiger is right though. The only real sane way I found to adjudicate the Mage was to effectively turn it into a potential walking nuclear bomb because as Tiger said there is no sense of scale with that class. Admittedly, its actually incredibly fun but on the other hand I don't think there is any other class that really has that weird limitless potential that it has like accidentally creating such a natural disaster that the Perilous Journey move activated even though they had to move 500 ft.

sentrygun posted:

And not a lot of people like the spell concept in the first place, thus why we're not seeing a bunch or any classes with Cast a Spell variants.

I have an idea for a variant that I'm just going to blatantly ripoff from Pathfinder which is the grenadier.

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 14:22 on May 29, 2013

# ¿ May 29, 2013 13:59

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

neonchameleon posted:

This was why I read through the thread. And came up disappointed tbh.

By my reading Dungeon World keeps the basic advantage of the Apocalypse World engine. It's fast, it's light, it only intrudes when you'd make a handover playing freeform, and when it does so it adds complication/inspiration. Which are all good things.

And what it does stops there. Which means it's a good engine for people who basically want to run near-freeform dungeon exploration. And the podcasts will be about ... freeform dungeon exploration. (With no learning curve). Nothing wrong with that.

(By contrast Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts run with some inspiring classes that provide tension between the characters and do far more interesting things than DW).

It primarily has to do with the group at hand more than anything. I don't know how the hell you encourage that sort of creativity because everyone I play with tends to be really good at it.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2013 22:03

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Lemon Curdistan posted:

The problem isn't that *World can't work with a modern setting (it can), it's that half of designing a *World system is about creating moves that embody the kind of fiction you're dealing with, and so trying to make a generic *World game is a waste of time. You can make ModernWorld, you can even make your basic moves, but you won't get ten playbooks unless you've got a specific idea of what PCs are going to be doing in ModernWorld and can build your playbooks towards that. ModernWorld doesn't work, but SpyWorld or SoldierWorld or even TownHallWorld would work just fine.

If you were to hack in Fate mechanics into the *World yeah I can easily see it working as you would eliminate the need for playbooks, eliminate the need for a drastic number of moves, and actually remove a lot of the weird problems that the *World game tends to have like the concept of the racial move. Admittedly, with the advent of Fate Accelerated I'm not entirely sure if there is such a big difference between the two systems outside of the dice rolling which honestly is still pretty much couched in the same philosophical underpinnings that the *World engine uses.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2013 18:44

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Lemon Curdistan posted:

None of those things properly fit the concept of "dude whose only talent is planning small-unit fights." I guess we could've gone with "The Tactician," but even that is the kind of grounded-in-game-mechanics-rather-than-fiction name that doesn't really work in Dungeon World.

The most commonly used term when I was looking it up is commander.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2013 20:40

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Lemon Curdistan posted:

The Marshal is obviously evocative of a kind of frontier lawman archetype, one who goes out and patrols the wilderlands to protect civilisation. That can definitely work as a Dungeon World playbook (although it risks stepping on the Ranger and the Spellslinger's toes), but it's not what the warlord conversion looks like. The warlord conversion looks like a bunch of mechanics strung together, rather than a playbook.

That isn't a Marshal. Believe it or not you are describing an actual ranger which contrary to your claim has nothing to do with the Dungeon World ranger.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2013 21:50

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Lemon Curdistan posted:

You're right, the archetype of the guy who travels a lot, roaming the wilderness has no overlap whatsoever with the playbook based on an archetype of a guy who travels a lot, roaming the wilderness, and has moves that make him better at travelling and knowing the wilderness.

For a guy who acts like he's an expert on Dungeon World you sure haven't read the actual Ranger playbook. That archetype is clearly stolen from Lord of the Rings and once again has nothing to do with an actual Ranger. Maybe I could salvage a few moves of off there but honestly I'd probably do a better job just scrapping the entire class and reworking it.

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Dec 10, 2013

# ¿ Dec 10, 2013 22:19

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Lemon Curdistan posted:

As you can see from the fact that the bolded bits are very similar, there is overlap between the concept that "Marshal" evokes for me and the concept that is covered by the DW/D&D Ranger.

I understand now but sweet jesus is that a really tenuous connection. Effectively stating that Wyatt Earp and the D&D Ranger are the same is really bizarre and no one in would really make that connections. The Spellslinger I understand because that actually is attempting to hit cowboy which you can ref-luff easily as a marshal.

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Dec 10, 2013

# ¿ Dec 10, 2013 23:16

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Ratpick posted:

One of the players still seems to have a bit of trouble understanding the Dungeon World style of play, because not two sessions ago the player did the "That's not in the rules" thing. The group was fighting against sky sharks and the player rolled a 6 on his attempt to escape from the sharks, which I narrated as one of the sharks catching him by one of his wings, dealing damage and putting him on the spot. I think he's starting to get how the game is supposed to work now and he seems to understand that I'm not out to get the characters but to make their lives more interesting.

I'm lucky. I ended up running it for my friends and took upon it rather easily. I liked my one friend who turned the Artificer into a bandoleer wearing grenadier complete with a stim pack that had the mobility tag so he could run and jump far distances. Really kind of a bizarre happenstance as he actually used the stim pack to stop someone from dying from an allergic reaction to a sting.

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Feb 28, 2014

# ¿ Feb 28, 2014 01:05

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Blasphemeral posted:

It also has generally poo poo out-of-the-box support for stunts and requires lots of work to cook up good ones that aren't just "+numbers when X," or "Once per scene, Y."

That effectively describes a lot of the problems with playbooks in general for Dungeon World though. A lot of the poorer designed playbooks are just numbers bloat which isn't why I play this game.

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Apr 17, 2014

# ¿ Apr 17, 2014 17:23

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Anyway in a rather bizarre attempt to create the world's most inappropriate archetype for a fantasy game I've started working on a firefighter. I just need opinions on the current set of moves and any suggestions for moves. I have a bunch as it is but I could always use more. As for the thing KillerQueen is talking about I'm still working on generating enough moves for people to look at.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eaSt-zAg0yvWWwyAEq1wZB8kDEdG7UP_XYeRTMWUGDI/edit?usp=sharing

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Apr 28, 2014

# ¿ Apr 28, 2014 13:59

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Doodmons posted:

As much as I like them, the Inverse World classes are some of the worst for this and if I'm not running a gonzo game I ask people not to use them. Playbooks like the Survivor, Golem and Walker are literal superheroes and having them in a party with a corebook class is a recipe for sadness. I'm very tempted to write up an effortpost about the IW classes and ask gnome7 if he's sure some of it is supposed to say what it does - but it would be difficult without sounding like a whiny whiner.

The problem isn't with the Inverse World playbooks more than it is with the core playbooks. They are generic. They are dull. They don't actively do anything at all and when compared to a class that has an actual thematic underpinning to them they start to show their weakness.

quote:

I mean, Alone Against The World is nuts,

Looking at my moveset for my Firefighter class let me say that it could be worst and the move that I made is supposed to be perfectly mundane.

MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 05:55 on May 10, 2014

# ¿ May 10, 2014 05:07

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Babe Magnet posted:

Anyway, sort of asking for advice, sort of venting. I got him leaning on the fiction a little harder since his heavy D&D/Pathfinder background is bleeding in, so it's like "Cool you summon a shadow blob and it has +1 armor. What does it look like?" but at this point his Master Assassin Shadow Rogue Mage is getting a little out of hand. I am not prepared for this.

If he wants to play a shade assassin just have him use the Rainlord class from Inverse World. You can pretty much reflavor it that way for the most part. Though as I said earlier the Inverse World classes tend to be far more powerful in terms of utility compared to the core classes. If you are going to ditch the core classes you might as well do it fully.

# ¿ May 16, 2014 18:52

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

The Supreme Court posted:

I like it! I've got a move I've been redrafting and changing for ages for my Pirate, it might fit better here:

When you reveal a secret you've been saving for when everything went horribly wrong, roll +Int. On a 10+ your reveal is exactly as planned: the diamond ring was swapped for a fake, you slipped your handcuffs ago, the traitor is really your double agent. On a 7-9, the GM also reveals their own secret, and you'll need to think fast.

The problem with this is that its actually a weaker version of one of the Mastermind advance moves Plans Never Survive Contact with the Enemy.

# ¿ May 21, 2014 19:02

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

I figure I'd post the Firefighter again for review in here as I've expanded the classes moveset a bit more. Ignore the move that does absolutely nothing mechanically distinct as I all ready know that is a problem.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eaSt-zAg0yvWWwyAEq1wZB8kDEdG7UP_XYeRTMWUGDI/edit?usp=sharing

# ¿ Jun 12, 2014 13:41

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Blasphemeral posted:

I need a playbook/CC for a character that has connections to, control over, or kinship with shadows, darkness, or the night. Is there such a thing? If so, where could I find it?

I don't know why, how, or the logic behind it but you want Rainlord. :psyduck:

# ¿ Jul 7, 2014 20:13

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Mr. Maltose posted:

Pretty sure shadow is one of the three Rainlord "races" already.

Its exactly why I suggested it in the first place.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2014 18:59

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Whybird posted:

This is a terrible idea. One of the best things about Dungeon World is how tightly-written the classes are: everything is thematically linked, succinct, and well-defined. I honestly can't imagine how anybody could think that taking that away would be a good idea.

The only way I can ever see that working well is if you completely gut Dungeon World and redesign the playbook model. Something I noticed when I've been running Dungeon World is that the playbooks often don't ever completely describe a character concept. I usually see a merging of two concepts which would equally work well as playbooks. For example in the last game one of the players was a pixie detective and another was a refluffed star mage archaeologist. So the idea would be to have two seperate playbooks for a single character.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2014 17:25

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Anyone figure out a decent DTAS system for Apocalypse Engine games? I've sort have an idea but I want to see if anyone else came up with any idea.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2015 19:28

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Loki_XLII posted:

Honestly, with the exception of Dungeon World, I wouldn't call what PbtA had Ability Scores. Like to me, ability scores are hard guides top what you can do, but Apocalypse World's array is all about how you do things. They're way more in line with Fate Accelerated's approaches.

Yeah I hit the one corner case where approaches have the same exact problem as Ability Scores in that they are needlessly pigeonholing and kind of confusing.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 03:34

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 00:05

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Cheap Shot posted:

The first type of imbalance is similarities.

Nah. There is only so much differentiation you are going to accomplish before it becomes futile. Its more important that your archetype is rigid and set in stone than whether or not you are going to encroach on other classes.

# ¿ May 12, 2015 06:23

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Dungeon World Thread (Messy, Forceful, Stunning)