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confusedabout
Mar 29, 2013


There is a guy I really like but he did something really bad and I feel like I can't ever trust him again. We were kissing one time and he tried to have sex with me. I told him no but at the same time I was giving him really mixed signals physically. Eventually I stopped responding physically. I thought that would show him that I really didn't want to but he didn't stop trying. I had to shove him really hard before he stopped. I was really upset about it. I felt like he didn't really care about my feelings because if he did then he wouldn't have kept trying. But that was the only time he did anything like that. Usually he's very sweet and thoughtful. Like he surprised me with tickets to my favorite band and he would make me things all the time and stuff like that. I know he felt really bad about what happened but at the same time it doesn't change what he did.

I thought about cutting him off after that but I still really care about him and knew that it would hurt him so I kept talking to him. And I also still really really like him. I saw him again a while ago and when I'm with him I'm really happy and I can see that he really does care about me and I can push what he did to the back of my mind and almost forget about it. But when I'm not with him I feel like what the hell am I doing and why do I still talk to him? And even when I'm with him and things are good I still know that I could never forgive him. I tried having sex with him but when things got too close I would remember what he did and stop. Eventually I did have sex with him... I'm not sure how I feel about that.

He said I should go see a therapist but I'm afraid to go because I'm afraid they'll tell me to stop talking to him. I sometimes feel sick and have nightmares. I told my friends and they all tell me not to talk to him anymore. I didn't tell them that I saw him again and had sex with him. It makes me feel bad to talk about it with my friends like I don't have any self respect because if I did then wouldn't I stop talking to him? But at the same time I still really like him. I feel like I'm an idiot and I'm really confused and don't

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CountingCrows
Apr 17, 2001


You're going to get the same responses here, because it is the right answer. You need to get away from him. If someone did that to you, he doesn't respect you or your feelings. He is being nice to you to get laid and when that doesn't work, he forces himself upon you. He's selfish and doesn't give a poo poo about you, because if he did, he would never do that. Anything that he does that you consider "sweet" or whatever is simply a ticket to get laid in his mind, not an honest gesture of love and respect.


There is nothing wrong with you, there is something wrong with him. Get away.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009


This guy is Red Flag City. Get the hell away from him.

Namarrgon
Dec 23, 2008

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

Everyone can be sweet and kind and all that when they are in their 'good-persona'. Judge someone on how they behave when they aren't, such as attempted surprise sex.

beckyogg
Jul 12, 2006

My lungs don't work. Now it's time to sing!

Although you have feelings for this guy, you need to do the right thing to protect yourself. He is not safe to be with, and a part of you knows that. The fact that he told you that YOU should get therapy to deal with your problems regarding him just indicates that he doesn't understand that he was totally in the wrong, and/or he's manipulating you.

Feel free to seek professional help with this, but definitely cut this man out of your life. He is dangerous.

whiggles
Dec 19, 2003

TEAM EDWARD


you're afraid a therapist will tell you to stop seeing him but you are willing to hear it from scores of goons (probably delivered with less emapthy)? i would recommend talking to a professional - it sounds like this is a pretty traumatic situation for you, even beyond the initial event, so a little processing in a safe environment would go a long ways towards clearing your head.

Death Pits of Crap
Nov 6, 2007


How old are you?

Feeling attached to someone abusive is normal. Holding onto that feeling of attachment and continuing the relationship is not. I'm sure there have been times you've spent with this guy when you had fun and felt he respected you, but he's just shown you that he does not actually care about you. You deserve better. Break the gently caress up with him and don't talk to him ever again.

If you care about his feelings, tell him something like "I'm breaking up with you because you don't respect me when it really counts. Sex should be something that both people want, but when it comes to sex you only care about what YOU want." He is still going to be hurt and confused, but he needs to be hurt. Otherwise, he's never going to change, and he's going to do the same thing - or worse - to his next girlfriend.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

and she told me, "Listen honey. There's hundreds of strong men out there. I like men who are kind, who are honest, men who can be open with me."

You sound very young, OP. Is this your first sexual relationship? Regardless, it is NOT normal for any boyfriend to pressure you into having sex and you were right to push him away. You don't owe him anything just because you had sex once, either. Abusers aren't always big scary-looking guys with a chainsaw, they more frequently come in the attractive young male variety, and your boyfriend exhibits characteristic behaviors of an abuser. Please listen to your friends and do not continue this relationship -- you may miss him or have conflicted feelings at first, but at the end of the day NOBODY has undisputed access to your own body besides yourself. Your friends don't need to know that you had sex, and they shouldn't care. Everybody will be thankful that you are out of this bad relationship.

Torka
Jan 5, 2008



quote:

I saw him again a while ago and when I'm with him I'm really happy and I can see that he really does care about me and I can push what he did to the back of my mind and almost forget about it.
It's important to remember that it's only in fiction that you can tell a person is dangerous because of how charmless or creepy or bad-tempered or generally unendearing they are. Awful people in reality are often pleasant to be around 99% of the time you're with them, and yeah, often they do genuinely care about the people they're hurting.

confusedabout
Mar 29, 2013


Death Pits of Crap posted:

If you care about his feelings, tell him something like "I'm breaking up with you because you don't respect me when it really counts. Sex should be something that both people want, but when it comes to sex you only care about what YOU want." He is still going to be hurt and confused, but he needs to be hurt. Otherwise, he's never going to change, and he's going to do the same thing - or worse - to his next girlfriend.

When I saw him again afterwards whenever things got to be too much for me and I wanted to stop he was always very understanding and quick to stop. He also took care to ask me if I was okay with it before doing anything like taking off my bra and stuff. The damage has already been done, but I feel like he has learned his lesson?

Namarrgon
Dec 23, 2008

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

Until he does it again because so far there have been no lasting negative consequences to his actions.

e. It is not unfair to judge people on their actions. Even one-time actions.

confusedabout
Mar 29, 2013


Torka posted:

It's important to remember that it's only in fiction that you can tell a person is dangerous because of how charmless or creepy or bad-tempered or generally unendearing they are. Awful people in reality are often pleasant to be around 99% of the time you're with them, and yeah, often they do genuinely care about the people they're hurting.

How can you care about someone and do something so hurtful? That's the part I don't understand. I feel like it must mean that he doesn't care about me but then a part of me thinks that he does.

CountingCrows
Apr 17, 2001


confusedabout posted:

When I saw him again afterwards whenever things got to be too much for me and I wanted to stop he was always very understanding and quick to stop. He also took care to ask me if I was okay with it before doing anything like taking off my bra and stuff. The damage has already been done, but I feel like he has learned his lesson?

You're not going to listen to the advice of literally everyone on the planet, are you?

CountingCrows
Apr 17, 2001


confusedabout posted:

How can you care about someone and do something so hurtful? That's the part I don't understand. I feel like it must mean that he doesn't care about me but then a part of me thinks that he does.

He "cares" about you because you are a source of sex. When he doesn't get what he cares about? Well, you've already seen the outcome.

Warrahooyaargh
Sep 15, 2007
Oh the mundanity

confusedabout posted:

When I saw him again afterwards whenever things got to be too much for me and I wanted to stop he was always very understanding and quick to stop. He also took care to ask me if I was okay with it before doing anything like taking off my bra and stuff. The damage has already been done, but I feel like he has learned his lesson?

He's softening you up. The fact that there's already been an incident where he didn't want to take no for an answer indicates there's likely to be another if you keep seeing him.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number.

confusedabout posted:

When I saw him again afterwards whenever things got to be too much for me and I wanted to stop he was always very understanding and quick to stop. He also took care to ask me if I was okay with it before doing anything like taking off my bra and stuff. The damage has already been done, but I feel like he has learned his lesson?
Well I might go against the grain a bit here and say that culturally there's a lot of mixed messages with regards to when girls are simply playing hard to get/putting up resistance meant to be overtaken and when no does mean no. On the books no always means no but if you actually believe that's true 100% of the time you've simply have never had sex.

I've made a mistake similar to the one this guy made before, I was dating a girl who generally liked it when I was a bit forceful (not really my cup of tea but I aim to please). Well after we had been dating a while there was one particularly unfortunate incident quite similar to yours when she was uncomfortable and it took me longer to pick up on that than it should have left us both pretty upset and I became incredibly timid regarding force or initiating things from that point on to the point where she actually complained about out it on a couple occasions. It's entirely possible the guy had past experiences where not only was his behavior acceptable but it was encouraged that lead him to making that mistake, and he might be genuinely sorry and ashamed of it. His actions seem to speak that he's going to continue playing it as safe and as cautious as possible until you tell him otherwise, so it's really up to you whether you want to give him another shot.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

mewbert
Jun 12, 2011
hatsuune miku wishes you

a happy and safe halloween


Cut your losses and stop seeing the guy.

CongoJack
Nov 5, 2009

Ask Why, Asshole


Whatever, gently caress the haters, keep dating him. I mean he's really sweet right? and you like him so why not? An almost surprise sex is just an almost, it didn't actually happen so who cares?

It's not like he'll have a bad day and want to release some tension and do whatever it takes to get it. But I mean if it ever does he's totally a nice guy so he'll probably buy you flowers afterwords so at least you'll have that. Flowers are all it takes to feel safe again right? Ladies help me out here.

CountingCrows
Apr 17, 2001


ArbitraryC posted:

Well I might go against the grain a bit here and say that culturally there's a lot of mixed messages with regards to when girls are simply playing hard to get/putting up resistance meant to be overtaken and when no does mean no. On the books no always means no but if you actually believe that's true 100% of the time you've simply have never had sex.

I've made a mistake similar to the one this guy made before, I was dating a girl who generally liked it when I was a bit forceful (not really my cup of tea but I aim to please). Well after we had been dating a while there was one particularly unfortunate incident quite similar to yours when she was uncomfortable and it took me longer to pick up on that than it should have left us both pretty upset and I became incredibly timid regarding force or initiating things from that point on to the point where she actually complained about out it on a couple occasions. It's entirely possible the guy had past experiences where not only was his behavior acceptable but it was encouraged that lead him to making that mistake, and he might be genuinely sorry and ashamed of it. His actions seem to speak that he's going to continue playing it as safe and as cautious as possible until you tell him otherwise, so it's really up to you whether you want to give him another shot.


Good advice man! OP will latch onto this like a crucifix and you've just enabled the OP to stay with a rapist even though your situations are nothing alike. Keep up the good work, champ.

Namarrgon
Dec 23, 2008

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

ArbitraryC posted:

Well I might go against the grain a bit here and say that culturally there's a lot of mixed messages with regards to when girls are simply playing hard to get/putting up resistance meant to be overtaken and when no does mean no. On the books no always means no but if you actually believe that's true 100% of the time you've simply have never had sex.

I've made a mistake similar to the one this guy made before, I was dating a girl who generally liked it when I was a bit forceful (not really my cup of tea but I aim to please). Well after we had been dating a while there was one particularly unfortunate incident quite similar to yours when she was uncomfortable and it took me longer to pick up on that than it should have left us both pretty upset and I became incredibly timid regarding force or initiating things from that point on to the point where she actually complained about out it on a couple occasions. It's entirely possible the guy had past experiences where not only was his behavior acceptable but it was encouraged that lead him to making that mistake, and he might be genuinely sorry and ashamed of it. His actions seem to speak that he's going to continue playing it as safe and as cautious as possible until you tell him otherwise, so it's really up to you whether you want to give him another shot.

Try not to surprise sex your girlfriends. Complex cultural analysis needed.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009


confusedabout posted:

How can you care about someone and do something so hurtful? That's the part I don't understand. I feel like it must mean that he doesn't care about me but then a part of me thinks that he does.

You're correct riiiight up until that very last part. No, he doesn't care about you. You're a source of sex and he thinks he's entitled to it. That's dangerous as all hell.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number.

Namarrgon posted:

Try not to surprise sex your girlfriends. Complex cultural analysis needed.
Conclude what you want but I will say that we dated for quite some time after that and there were several occasions she expressed interest in me going back to being more aggressive in pursuing sex because she liked the idea of being taken. I was pretty well turned off from the idea after the incident because I'm honestly not a rapist and the only reason I was doing it in the first place is because that's what she had wanted in the past, so I never really did go back to behaving like that despite her requests. I'm just trying to point out that a single mistake might have a lot of cultural or experience related reasons behind it that have nothing to do with respect or only seeing the OP for sex or for being some sort of sociopathic manipulative mastermind that is only pretending to be considerate now.

Rivethead
Feb 22, 2008


How many other people has he pulled this surprise sex type stuff with? I'm willing to bet more than just you.

"On the books no always means no but if you actually believe that's true 100% of the time you've simply have never had sex."

What the gently caress did I just read?

go3
Dec 20, 2006


ArbitraryC posted:

Conclude what you want but I will say that we dated for quite some time after that and there were several occasions she expressed interest in me going back to being more aggressive in pursuing sex because she liked the idea of being taken. I was pretty well turned off from the idea after the incident because I'm honestly not a rapist and the only reason I was doing it in the first place is because that's what she had wanted in the past, so I never really did go back to behaving like that despite her requests. I'm just trying to point out that a single mistake might have a lot of cultural or experience related reasons behind it that have nothing to do with respect or only seeing the OP for sex or for being some sort of sociopathic manipulative mastermind that is only pretending to be considerate now.

Do you too have trouble with understanding that no means no

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number.

go3 posted:

Do you too have trouble with understanding that no means no
Not before that girlfriend and not since, but I did learn that no does in fact not always mean no and I'd be legitimately surprised if most guys haven't encountered at least a girl throughout their sex life that had a thing for being taken. Did you read the rest of those two posts or do you just like taking a personal jab by ignoring context?

Rivethead posted:

"On the books no always means no but if you actually believe that's true 100% of the time you've simply have never had sex."

What the gently caress did I just read?
Clearly not the rest of the post jesus christ people did you literally miss the line where she actually asked me to go back to being more forceful in those instances. Different people have different preferences in bed, I don't think I'll ever want to date someone again that had that particular preference but to pretend it's not a relatively common thing is incredibly disingenuous.

Whatever, keep calling me a would-be-rapist. I suppose you presume the entire S&M community are rapists too, you know they do get off on that whole dominance and submission thing.

Rivethead
Feb 22, 2008


ArbitraryC posted:

Not before that girlfriend and not since, but I did learn that no does in fact not always mean no and I'd be legitimately surprised if most guys haven't encountered at least a girl throughout their sex life that had a thing for being taken. Did you read the rest of those two posts or do you just like taking a personal jab by ignoring context?

So you had a girlfriend with a surprise sex fantasy and you think that is normal?

CountingCrows
Apr 17, 2001


ArbitraryC posted:

Not before that girlfriend and not since, but I did learn that no does in fact not always mean no and I'd be legitimately surprised if most guys haven't encountered at least a girl throughout their sex life that had a thing for being taken. Did you read the rest of those two posts or do you just like taking a personal jab by ignoring context?

Hey man, you actually said this:

ArbitraryC posted:


On the books no always means no but if you actually believe that's true 100% of the time you've simply have never had sex.

On the books no always means no but if you actually believe that's true 100% of the time you've simply never raped anyone.

ArbitraryC posted:

I suppose you presume the entire S&M community are rapists too, you know they do get off on that whole dominance and submission thing.

Why are you posting this in a thread trying to excuse a rapist? Holy poo poo dude, this is nothing like the OPs situation.

Cool Blue Reason
Jan 7, 2010

by Lowtax


In my retarded opinion based on a single paragraph written by a person that clearly needs therapy the guy in OP's post is a manipulative sex crazed sociopath.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number.

Rivethead posted:

So you had a girlfriend with a surprise sex fantasy and you think that is normal?
Talking to other guys yes I would say it's a pretty common experience. I wouldn't call it so far as having a surprise sex fantasy either, just subtle things like wanting me to be more forceful in initiation. Pushed against walls/furniture, hands help back, that kind of stuff. I'm not going to get into gritty details but it's not like she would pretend she was being raped during the act itself.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number.

CountingCrows posted:

Hey man, you actually said this:
Was is so hard to understand about the sentence. There exist girls out there who want to put up token resistance and have that overtaken, they find the aggressiveness/dominance to be sexually attractive. I honestly find it hard to believe that this is such a foreign concept to you.

Cool Blue Reason posted:

In my retarded opinion based on a single paragraph written by a person that clearly needs therapy the guy in OP's post is a manipulative sex crazed sociopath.
This is basically why I was posting. The guy in the OP was admittedly too forceful but he did stop before literally pinning the OP down and raping her. Since that point, he has apparently been very slow and cautious with regards to any sexual acts and is literally verbally confirming that each step taken is okay. Is it really that hard to accept that this might have been a mistake rather than him just being a sex crazed sociopath who cares not for the OP's person and only her wants her for her body?

I can totally understand why the OP might not feel safe or comfortable around getting sexually involved with the guy and it would make sense for her to stop seeing him, but it's pretty unreasonable to just label him as the prime evil and call it a day when it seems like he's taken every step to apologize and modify his actions.

Sound
Oct 18, 2004


ArbitraryC posted:

Well I might go against the grain a bit here and say that culturally there's a lot of mixed messages with regards to when girls are simply playing hard to get/putting up resistance meant to be overtaken and when no does mean no. On the books no always means no but if you actually believe that's true 100% of the time you've simply have never had sexBEEN RAPEY AS gently caress.


That shits weird bro. You sound like a rapist.

ArbitraryC posted:

I'm honestly not a rapist


Ah odd. I am also honestly not a rapist but I don't think it is in anyway excusable ever to continue to force yourself sexually on anyone to the point where they have to get physical to put a stop to it.

Ozz81
Aug 30, 2006



ArbitraryC posted:

I've made a mistake similar to the one this guy made before, I was dating a girl who generally liked it when I was a bit forceful (not really my cup of tea but I aim to please). Well after we had been dating a while there was one particularly unfortunate incident quite similar to yours when she was uncomfortable and it took me longer to pick up on that than it should have left us both pretty upset and I became incredibly timid regarding force or initiating things from that point on to the point where she actually complained about out it on a couple occasions. It's entirely possible the guy had past experiences where not only was his behavior acceptable but it was encouraged that lead him to making that mistake, and he might be genuinely sorry and ashamed of it. His actions seem to speak that he's going to continue playing it as safe and as cautious as possible until you tell him otherwise, so it's really up to you whether you want to give him another shot.

Regardless of the other bullshit in this post, I highlighted this for one reason - if the guy OP was with had past experiences like this, he'd know to ask about someone's preferences when it comes to sex. Just because one or two past girlfriends liked someone being forceful doesn't mean EVERY woman will like it, and if that's what he thought, he's a moron. Any self-respecting guy will back off when told to stop, and won't make retarded assumptions about all women based on a couple of experiences in his own past.

OP's guy "friend" is stupid and needs more therapy than she does - acting the way he did is disgusting. Cut ties with the dude because he's trouble and doesn't know the meaning of boundaries or respect.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number.

Sound posted:

That shits weird bro. You sound like a rapist.

ArbitraryC posted:

Was is so hard to understand about the sentence. There exist girls out there who want to put up token resistance and have that overtaken, they find the aggressiveness/dominance to be sexually attractive. I honestly find it hard to believe that this is such a foreign concept to you.
Well I'm done, people just have zero reading comprehension and are unwilling to acknowledge that there are people out there that enjoy sex differently than themselves. Keep calling me a rapist if it makes you feel better or whatever. If you're literally too stupid to understand that the girl in question for that anecdote literally requested I do things like that and that I literally said it's not something I'm normally into, then I don't know what else to say.

It's not something I've ever done with partners before or after that specific girl, but feel free to make sweeping generalizations on my person based on one incident that I had posted about in an attempt to highlight that something like that can happen by mistake and it's not necessarily a terrible reflection of his person even if he learns from it.

vvvvv: So you've absolutely never heard of people who find sexual aggressiveness and dominance to be attractive? Or what?

CountingCrows
Apr 17, 2001


ArbitraryC posted:

Was is so hard to understand about the sentence.

I guess the sentence only makes sense to surprise sex apologists.

jabby
Oct 27, 2010


confusedabout posted:

When I saw him again afterwards whenever things got to be too much for me and I wanted to stop he was always very understanding and quick to stop. He also took care to ask me if I was okay with it before doing anything like taking off my bra and stuff. The damage has already been done, but I feel like he has learned his lesson?

Despite what most people are saying without knowing the guy its impossible to know whether he has genuinely changed or not. Behavior like that makes someone a lovely person, but it doesn't necessarily make them a lovely person forever. It's possible he fully realizes what he did wrong and will never do it again. However, from what you've said, its not likely.

His future behavior is rather beside the point anyway. You have understandably been negatively affected by this and continuing to be around him is just going to bring up bad memories, doubts, and ruin your self-esteem. This will happen regardless of whether he is a changed person or not. For your own sake you need to get away from him and meet other people.

Also for the record you did nothing wrong. Even the fact that you had sex with him again is fine if that's what you wanted to do. Doing that in no way obligates you to forgive him or spend any more time with him. You need to sever from this guy.

HellaClassy
Dec 15, 2006


Torka posted:

It's important to remember that it's only in fiction that you can tell a person is dangerous because of how charmless or creepy or bad-tempered or generally unendearing they are. Awful people in reality are often pleasant to be around 99% of the time you're with them, and yeah, often they do genuinely care about the people they're hurting.

This.

OP, sometimes people get their hooks in us, for whatever stupid reason and often they aren't the ones you want to get attached to. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you. I had the most hosed up relationship a few years back and after all his cheating and manipulation and lying and emotional/psychological abuse, I still missed him when it ended. I didn't fully get over it until about a year ago (when we got close again and I found out he hadn't changed at all), three years after we broke up. It's natural to feel weak or stupid after something like that, but it isn't within your control to turn your feelings on and off. Hell, we have a hard enough time understanding our feelings, let alone tweaking them to suit us better. What you can do, though, is pull yourself together and do the tough thing, which is get away from this guy. You'll still have feelings for him, but if he's not around to feed into them, you'll have a clearer head about the whole thing and it will get easier and easier until he's just a mistake left in the past.

CountingCrows
Apr 17, 2001


ArbitraryC posted:

Well I'm done, people just have zero reading comprehension and are unwilling to acknowledge that there are people out there that enjoy sex differently than themselves. Keep calling me a rapist if it makes you feel better or whatever. If you're literally too stupid to understand that the girl in question for that anecdote literally requested I do things like that and that I literally said it's not something I'm normally into, then I don't know what else to say.

It's not something I've ever done with partners before or after that specific girl, but feel free to make sweeping generalizations on my person based on one incident that I had posted about in an attempt to highlight that something like that can happen by mistake and it's not necessarily a terrible reflection of his person even if he learns from it.

vvvvv: So you've absolutely never heard of people who find sexual aggressiveness and dominance to be attractive? Or what?

Why are you coming into this thread and inventing a scenario that never happened? I've asked you this three times now and you've not answered. You literally came in and said "HEY HEY HEY! HOLD UP GUYS, maybe OP is super into BDSM and asked her boyfriend to play out a surprise sex scenario and is therefore not a rapist guys!!! So in my incredibly precise situation that I just invented and has nothing to do with the thread, no might not mean no!!"

In the OPs case, no definitely meant no. Jesus dude.

Namarrgon
Dec 23, 2008

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

If you haven't raped someone once or twice while learning the ropes you are clearly a virgin.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012

Oh Karl, test me harder! Falsify me like the filthy positivist I am!

confusedabout posted:

I know he felt really bad about what happened but at the same time it doesn't change what he did.
How do you know this? Have you had a talk about it with him?

confusedabout posted:


He said I should go see a therapist
What reason? I hope he didn't tell you to see a therapist because you don't want to have sex with him, or because you feel bad he tried to surprise sex you?

confusedabout posted:

I told my friends and they all tell me not to talk to him anymore.
One thing I learned from my failed relationships is that generally, my friends knew better than I did.
They're your friends. They want your best. They can probably see stuff more clearly than you can. Trust them.


ArbitraryC posted:

On the books no always means no but if you actually believe that's true 100% of the time you've simply have never had sex.
In contrast to the guys who reposted that whole mess, I'm going to only quote the worst part.

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Darth123123
Jan 26, 2006



So anyways OP, you do sound kind of young or at least new at relationships.

Why is it you think this guy is the only one out there for you? Plenty of fish and all that, and without all this bad rapey stuff too.

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